Oracle of Delphi

Duh: Cadillac shelves that whole V12 thing

74 posts in this topic

Posted Aug 21st 2008 3:29PM by Jeremy Korzeniewski

Filed under: Concept Cars, Sedans/Saloons, I.C.E., Cadillac

caddyv12om7.jpg

750-hp 7.5-liter V12 from the Cadillac Cien concept

Here's a shocker: Cadillac has reportedly canceled plans for a range-topping V12 engine. Really, you don't say? Last we checked, General Motors didn't seem to have any problems extracting plenty of performance from its 6.2-liter supercharged and 7.0-liter naturally aspirated V8 engines, and the majority of the development work has already been done for a Caddy installation. Additionally, we've heard some rumors of a possible twin-turbo version of GM's excellent 3.6-liter direct injection six, which could find a cozy spot under the hood of the next Cadillac sedan.

Cadillac is also said to be reconsidering its premium large sedan, where the V12 was originally intended to reside. In its stead, GM's classiest division will focus in on the replacement for the STS and DTS sedans. Also rumored is a new naming convention, as if the waters weren't already murky enough. Will the next Caddy sedan be known as the DT7? We sure hope not. Will it be based on the new Zeta platform? Well now... that decision would get our seal of approval.

Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/21/duh-cad...hole-v12-thing/

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New 740: forced induction 6-cyl;

New 750: forced induction V8.

Even BMW aka 'the benchmark' is downsizing

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So there are 2 Zetas at Cadillac?

The ULS (Which I thought had been shelved LONG ago) and the DTS/STS replacement?

Yeah... We don't really need a V12 right now. But it is a shame that it didn't see the light of day because it would've given Cadillac an image boost on the technology and prestige scale.

I certainly hope the next naming scheme isn't the stupid DT7 :bs: that we've read about.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Cadillac should have a V12 if it ever wants to build a vehicle to compete directly with the 7er and S-Class, but right now that vehicle is probably an afterthought.

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Cadillac should have a V12 if it ever wants to build a vehicle to compete directly with the 7er and S-Class, but right now that vehicle is probably an afterthought.

I agree... and in limited qualities... and it doesn't necessarily need to be 7.5 liters (unless they went pushrod to cut weight :smilewide: ).

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Also rumored is a new naming convention

That would be very interesting; I can't imagine them walking away from "CTS," for example, nor can I see them returning to "Eldorado," to name but one.

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That would be very interesting; I can't imagine them walking away from "CTS," for example, nor can I see them returning to "Eldorado," to name but one.

I wish they would bring back the Eldorado name. God how I love it.

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The Eldorado has such a fantastic history, so many beautiful cars, that I cant believe they would drop it. I am happy they didn't use it on the XLR, because Eldorado should be used on something with a usable back seat.

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They don't need a V12 since they aren't going after Bentley any time soon, but they do need a new DOHC V8. A turbo or supercharged V8 is enough for under $125k cars. I thought the STS/DTS replacement was scrapped, I hope it isn't on Zeta, a Chevy/Pontiac/Holden platform that is heavy has no place at Cadillac. They need to develop one from scratch, I know it is costly, but they find money to rebadge lame SUVs, they can take it from there to make Cadillac legit. As for names, I don't care if they stick with STS/CTS style or go to Fleetwood/Eldorado, they sell cars mostly in English speaking countries anyway.

I just read about Mercedes' new engine lineup yesterday, they have a, 300+ hp diesel V6, 435 hp twin turbo V8 (replaces the 5.5 liter) and a twin turbo 5.5 liter V8 with 570 hp for AMG cars. Direct injection on gas engines, plus a hybrid S-class with lithium ion batteries. All this is coming in the next 2-3 years. BMW and Mercedes keep pushing the envelop, Lexus and Audi have a hard time keeping up, Cadillac seems too underfunded to get in a battle with those brands.

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They don't need a V12 since they aren't going after Bentley any time soon

Who said anything about Bentley? Lexus is the only other full-line (and I use that term loosely when mentioning Cadillac) luxury automaker that doesn't use a 12-cylinder engine at all.

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BMW dropped the V12, but they could always update it and bring it back. The M5 might go to a twin turbo V8, and Jaguar is V8 only as well. The V12 Mercedes are $125,000 or more. The DTS and STS base under $45k right now, the replacement (if they ever make it) will probably be $50k, a V6 and V8 are fine for that price class. GM puts pushrods in Cadillacs so clearly they don't care that much about engines, doing to a DOHC V12 would be quite a jump.

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BMW dropped the V12, but they could always update it and bring it back. The M5 might go to a twin turbo V8, and Jaguar is V8 only as well. The V12 Mercedes are $125,000 or more. The DTS and STS base under $45k right now, the replacement (if they ever make it) will probably be $50k, a V6 and V8 are fine for that price class. GM puts pushrods in Cadillacs so clearly they don't care that much about engines, doing to a DOHC V12 would be quite a jump.

GM needs to match and beat the Germans in engine quality in all ways to make good headway, otherwise along with the loss of competitive models this just adds another deadweight to Cadillac.

Edited by aldw
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Maybe GM could use the pushrods to their advantage...

The motors are just as refined as the DOHC units (IMO)

Maybe GM could market them as "distinctly american" just like art & science and Cadillac as whole was/is supposed to be distinctly american.

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A shame perhaps, but considering what they can do with the small block V8 (ZR1 anybody?) They don't need a V12.

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Pushrods aren't as refined as DOHC, I have a DOHC V8, I wouldn't trade that on a pushrod ever. "Distinctly American" might be a turn off to many luxury buyers. The current perception is that German and Japanese cars are better than ours. To beat the Germans, they need to out-engineer them, recycling a pushrod from a Chevy pickup or Camaro isn't going to do anything, but further tarnish the image of Cadillac as just another struggling GM brand.

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Maybe GM could use the pushrods to their advantage...

The motors are just as refined as the DOHC units (IMO)

Maybe GM could market them as "distinctly american" just like art & science and Cadillac as whole was/is supposed to be distinctly american.

Agreed on all counts. :yes:

I never drove a GM pushrod (V6 or V8) that I didn't like. :)

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I wish they would bring back the Eldorado name. God how I love it.

I love that name...and Seville, and esp. Fleetwood for the big luxo boats..... deVille is certainly nicer than 'DTS', IMHO. DTS sounds like some software code to me..(since I work in the biz known for having zillions of TLAs).

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BMW dropped the V12, but they could always update it and bring it back. The M5 might go to a twin turbo V8, and Jaguar is V8 only as well. The V12 Mercedes are $125,000 or more. The DTS and STS base under $45k right now, the replacement (if they ever make it) will probably be $50k, a V6 and V8 are fine for that price class. GM puts pushrods in Cadillacs so clearly they don't care that much about engines, doing to a DOHC V12 would be quite a jump.

I'm surprised Jaguar never brought back a V12 for the top-of-the line XJ sedan....no money, I guess.. I hadn't heard anything about BMW dropping their V12..they still have the 760Li (and the next gen F01/F02 is supposed to get a 760Li in '10, with an 8-speed auto).

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Bet you dollar to donuts there are lots of consumers 'convinced' OHC is more 'refined' than IBC... gazing with heavy lust at the CTS-V, pushrods and all. 'Engineering' means little on the bottom line if you take a back seat to the competition where it counts and where it can readily be measured.

You are only 1 person with only 1 opinion, yet -based on your one-track posts here- you continually extrapolate that onto the entire car-buying world as if everyone agrees with you.

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The 09 7-series has no V12, but the 2010 model getting it back makes sense, it is supposed to be a twin turbo V12 I think as well.

I've driven plenty of pushrods that I didn't like, even most SOHC engines I find unrefined. BMW's inline 6 has better refinement than any GM engine, pushrods and the Northstar don't cut it, they need a new engine if they really want to compete, but I believe GM is happy with Cadillac being a $35-55k brand that shares parts with lower end models.

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Bet you dollar to donuts there are lots of consumers 'convinced' OHC is more 'refined' than IBC... gazing with heavy lust at the CTS-V, pushrods and all. 'Engineering' means little on the bottom line if you take a back seat to the competition where it counts and where it can readily be measured.

You are only 1 person with only 1 opinion, yet -based on your one-track posts here- you continually extrapolate that onto the entire car-buying world as if everyone agrees with you.

BMW and Mercedes are both heavy on engineering and they both sell over 1 million cars a year globally, Cadillac is lucky to push 250k. Cadillac is 4th place in their home market and sales are down this year. The current plan isn't working.

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What is interesting is that GM and Chrysler are the only automakers in the world, AFAIK, that still do pushrod engines. The LS and Hemi are the last pushrod engines, I think. Even Ford moved away from them. (unless there are some obscure pushrod 4s still built in RIC countries).

I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like carburators, BOF construction, etc artifacts of the past...

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>>"I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like carburators, BOF construction, etc artifacts of the past... "<<

Some may prefer to look at it like this:

>>I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like decent thickness sheetmetal, longevity, repairability, etc, artifacts of the past...<<

In other words- these things worked well but are no longer 'fashionable'.

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>>"I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like carburators, BOF construction, etc artifacts of the past... "<<

Some may prefer to look at it like this:

>>I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like decent thickness sheetmetal, longevity, repairability, etc, artifacts of the past...<<

The thing is about longevity, cars today tend to go longer than the did in the past...30-40 years ago a car was usually worn out at 100k miles...today's cars are generally much more reliable over the long run...

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