GM Studies Killing Saab, Saturn, Pontiac

[Camino LS6]

(sigh). Toyota is now the largest automaker, and after the year is over it'll be the largest in both sales and revenue.

Perhaps.

Worldwide.

Not in the US

We're not talking downsizing sales volume. We're talking downsizing brands. Any car Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, and GMC sells can be covered under Chevrolet.

Not even close, lost volume and massive expense is what you are advocating here

Just like Toyota does now. All of those cars under one brands has helped Toyota get where it is.

And Toyota is now expanding its brand protfolio since maxxing out the potential of a single brand

Out of the brands mentioned, Buick has the most potential for revival in the U.S. and is the only brand with a presence outside the NA market. I love all of them, but you can't think with your heart. If GM doesn't streamline brands, it will collapse; what will that do for the sake of our economy and middle class workers everywhere? Tell me, what does having to many brands have to do with middle class workers?

It is actually laughable that you would tap tiny Buick as having the most potential in the US, the brand is moribund other than the Enclave. Seems to me that you might be the one thinking with your heart here. Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate killing Buick, but to place all bets for the future on it is just silly.

[enzl]

Although I believe that slimmer, more focused line-ups are the way to go for GM --- it looks like GM will have to place brands and dealers on the chopping block to appease all of the other interests that are sacrificing for the sake of the long-term survival of the company.

To me, Saturn is the best example of what happens when best intentions get run through a large, faceless corporation. In the 90's, Saturn sold 300k examples of the S---as a start-up company. They now have 5+ products and will sell 33% less cars--that simply makes no sense...

Imagine the Astra as a line-up like Europe, built at Spring Hill and priced like a Cobalt+. Could have worked, no?

Buick, Pontiac and GMC are merely victims of the middle market squeeze that has afflicted many consumer products that grow stale and behind the times. The Walmart-ing of cars by Koreans on the low end and Lux-makers on the high end (BMW's 1 series, Audi A3 et al) has simply exacerbated GM's inability to keep these lineups fresh and relevant--thus being late to SUV's, then crossovers and RWD.

It's going to be a hell of a battle to save GM as we know it. They'll be lots of baggage thrown overboard for good and bad.

[cmattson]

GM *does* need to clean up it's dealership mess; but it starts with giving each surviving brand a target market and STICKING TO IT (see Pontiac G3/G5 or Buick Enclave/GMC Acadia for details).

They cannot distinctly market each brand uniquely because they've (1) lacked consistancy in defining each brand, and (2) too many brands force overlap far too easily.

I'd argue that besides GMC, only one of the following GM brands survive: Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Saab.

1. Saab is the easiest to get rid of. Sure it's quirky/semi-unique, but it's lack of volume and non-GM-heritage would make it the first for me to get rid of. Being that it's semi-unique and has a non-US presence, I'd put it up for sale as opposed to shuttering it.

2. Saturn. The choices start getting tough now. Forget the fact that Saturn has practically a all-new lineup of vehicles. It's a high-cost, stand-alone brand with low-volume that never took off with the public. If you closed Pontiac and Buick instead of Saturn, you'd leave GMC all alone. The GMC brand wouldn't survive. By default, you'd need to combine GMC with Saturn (expensive) or shutter GMC (something GM would be hesitant to do). GMC is a premium vehicle that gets a premium price, despite most of it's vehicles typically sharing 90-95% of it's underpinnings with it's corresponding Chevrolet nameplates. That's profit GM can't afford to lose. GMC won't be 'left alone" and that means Saturn is the odd-man out.

3. Pontiac. The Solstice and G8 are nice; but it just isn't enough. The G6 is a weak/mediocre/rental-grade offering (I should know: I own one). The G3 and G5 sealed it for me: the Pontiac brand has been given watered down, weak GM rebadges for far too long. It will take far, far too much money to change public perception otherwise. Great history, sad to see it go, but at this point, GM can't afford to spend money for the next 2 decades to repair the damage of recent years.

My case for Buick/GMC:

1. Buick is building a name for itself in an emerging market: let overseas growth fuel Buick's rebirth here.

2. Buick would slot itself between Chevrolet and Cadilliac: a middle-luxury class of cars. GMC would do the same for SUV's, crossovers and trucks. You now have a clear brand identity: entry-level Chevrolet, near-luxury Buick Cars/GMC trucks and full/premium luxury Cadillac.

3. Buick could 'absorb' the best of Pontiac/Buick/Saturn better than Saturn or Pontiac could. Saturn doesn't have an identity at all--despite years of trying. Unfortunately, Pontiac has an identity: Hertz, Avis, National, Alamo.

Product plans:

1. Completely kill Pontiac G3/G5/G6

2. Pontiac G8 becomes a Buick Regal (bonus: V8 trim revives "Grand National" designation). This ultimately kills the Buick Lucerne.

3. Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky gets an upgraded interior and is reborn as a "Buick Wildcat"

4. Chinese built sedan becomes Buick Invicta, killing existing Buick LaCrosse/Pontiac G6/Saturn Aura.

5. Buick Enclave/Saturn Outlook just goes away; lets sales go to the more popular GMC Acadia nameplate.

6. Next-gen Opel Astra is brought over as a Buick Astra.

Buick would then: Astra, Invicta, Regal, Wildcat

GMC would have: Terrain (Vue/Equinox clone), Sierra, Yukon/Yukon XL, Acadia

That would be a more-than-well rounded lineup of competive vehicles under the Buick/GMC dealership sign!

[Chicagoland]

"Chinese built sedan becomes Buick Invicta, killing existing Buick LaCrosse/Pontiac G6/Saturn Aura"

So, GM should fire US/CDN workers for a China car? No way!

Saab is #1 on hit list I think, dump it to Renault or Volvo.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Chicagoland

[A Horse With No Name]

Product plans:

1. Completely kill Pontiac G3/G5/G6

2. Pontiac G8 becomes a Buick Regal (bonus: V8 trim revives "Grand National" designation). This ultimately kills the Buick Lucerne.

3. Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky gets an upgraded interior and is reborn as a "Buick Wildcat"

4. Chinese built sedan becomes Buick Invicta, killing existing Buick LaCrosse/Pontiac G6/Saturn Aura.

5. Buick Enclave/Saturn Outlook just goes away; lets sales go to the more popular GMC Acadia nameplate.

6. Next-gen Opel Astra is brought over as a Buick Astra.

Buick would then: Astra, Invicta, Regal, Wildcat

GMC would have: Terrain (Vue/Equinox clone), Sierra, Yukon/Yukon XL, Acadia

That would be a more-than-well rounded lineup of competive vehicles under the Buick/GMC dealership sign!

I'm going to get banned or flamed for agreeing with you, but this might just work.

And I like the idea of a modern "Grand National"

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I totally understand where you're coming from, but in today's market the arguement still doesn't hold water. GM's vast portfolio only works when it controls enough of the market sales wise to make a business case for it. You're last sentence is very true, but we're not talking about selling the exact same CAR across the globe. We're talking Brands here, not cars. In that regard, the "king of homogeny" japanese companies have succeeded wildly. Toyota's brand is extremely valuable because their emblems are found across the globe. Ford's brand is much more valuable than most of GM's... it's a GLOBAL brand. Found in Europe, Asia, Australia, etc. GM recognized this years ago, and has strived to catch up to these brands, making Chevy a truly global brand. The same goes for they're hopes for Caddy. Even if Buick China has NO models in common with Buick NA, the fact that Buicks are found in both countries gives the brand huge strength. Also, I smile at the arguments I see on this thread regarding Buick as a "gray haired brand." That thinking is really narrow, and very short sided. With proper marketing and product, a brand's image can be changed in a generation... it only took Leus 20 years to become the powerhouse it is today. Buick can easily be an aspirational, near luxury brand; but it takes marketing dollars that are spread thin because some has to go to Saab, GMC, Pontiac, and Saturn. The same goes for product. That's ALOT of brands to nurture, and it's going wind up being a matter of survival of the fittest and a business case. It's my opinion that GM will choose Buick as the brand to save. It's also GM's oldest brand. As I said in an earlier post, we'll see soon enough what the fallout will be...

Something of interest. (Not really disagreeing or agreeing) Both Ford and Toyota also have brands that share the name of the corporation. I wonder how much water "General Motors" carries in relation, or even how much it hurts GM to have a separate name from their top division.

[A Horse With No Name]

Interesting question, FOG. I would think that GMC is as close to a GM nameplate as they have, and as such I would hate to see it go.

Chris

Edited December 2, 2008 by 66Stang

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

(sigh). Toyota is now the largest automaker, and after the year is over it'll be the largest in both sales and revenue. We're not talking downsizing sales volume. We're talking downsizing brands. Any car Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, and GMC sells can be covered under Chevrolet. Just like Toyota does now. All of those cars under one brands has helped Toyota get where it is.

But 100% of those sales (I'd venture to guess not even 75% of them) will NOT go to the new consolidated divisions. Oldsmobile taught us that.

Out of the brands mentioned, Buick has the most potential for revival in the U.S. and is the only brand with a presence outside the NA market.

I agree..

I love all of them, but you can't think with your heart.

I disagree... Lutz told us that good busines sense is a combination of heart and head.

If GM doesn't streamline brands, it will collapse; what will that do for the sake of our economy and middle class workers everywhere? Tell me, what does having to many brands have to do with middle class workers?

More brands = more volume (if GM managed them correctly) and GM, which helped build the middle class, could now help better sustain the middle class through employing them. The automotive industry is one of the last bastions of 'middle class' employment in this country. Other than manufacturing, you either have lower class service jobs or higher class tech jobs. There is a stark divide that is growing because the manufacturing that sustained the middle class is rapidly vanishing.

Edited December 2, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[A Horse With No Name]

More brands = more volume (if GM managed them correctly) and GM, which helped build the middle class, could now help better sustain the middle class through employing them. The automotive industry is one of the last bastions of 'middle class' employment in this country. Other than manufacturing, you either have lower class service jobs or higher class tech jobs. There is a stark divide that is growing because the manufacturing that sustained the middle class is rapidly vanishing.

The fact that it sustains the middle class is probably why it is so threatening to the powers that be. Seriously.

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

NO.

They have talked about trying everything, that is not the same thing as actually doing it.

+1

As for the "me too" thing, every attempt by the domestics to "me too" has only weakened them.

You must see the crucial difference between Toyota adding brands and GM killing brands. Just because they end up with the same number doesn't mean a damn thing, less brands is not a panacea for GM.

That's because, unlike the Japanese (at least, until the Prius) Detroit actually has a history of innovation and leadership. That history STILL burns bright despite years of horrible management. That's why a 'me too' Japanese clone from Detroit will never identify with buyers like a true Detroit innovation.

The japanese are known for quality, but not so much for innovation.

[David]

I believe everyone here is in agreement that we need to save GM, GM needs to focus on a 3 tier sales model.

Entry - Cheverolet

Mid Market - GMC - Buick

Luxury - Cadillac.

I feel this is a good plan posted by

QUOTE (cmattson @ Dec 2 2008, 02:34 PM)

Product plans:

1. Completely kill Pontiac G3/G5/G6

2. Pontiac G8 becomes a Buick Regal (bonus: V8 trim revives "Grand National" designation). This ultimately kills the Buick Lucerne.

3. Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky gets an upgraded interior and is reborn as a "Buick Wildcat"

4. Chinese built sedan becomes Buick Invicta, killing existing Buick LaCrosse/Pontiac G6/Saturn Aura.

5. Buick Enclave/Saturn Outlook just goes away; lets sales go to the more popular GMC Acadia nameplate.

6. Next-gen Opel Astra is brought over as a Buick Astra.

Buick would then: Astra, Invicta, Regal, Wildcat

GMC would have: Terrain (Vue/Equinox clone), Sierra, Yukon/Yukon XL, Acadia

That would be a more-than-well rounded lineup of competive vehicles under the Buick/GMC dealership sign!

Yes this means the death of my beloved hummer, saab, saturn and Pontiac. People want a reason to work hard and step up the ladder of success by buying a higher end luxury vehicle, but they need a clear road map.

As much as I hate Toyota, they have a clear road map, they started the ugly Scion entry level model cars. They have the mid level as Toyota and luxury as Lexus. Clear steps to the top.

GM Needs to Clean house to get into a successful 3 step approach and streamline marketing and options to maximize profits.

Yes they have talked about doing tons of stuff to save every name plate but in a global world, you have to Maximize profits by reducing costs and this world Economy does not suport 7, 8 or even 9 name brands under one roof. Clean up and streamline to achieve profitability and success. The GM of old over reached thinking size and name plate alone would mean success, but we all have seen that it does not.

I wish the best to GM.

[cmattson]

One more thing to ponder: Does GM need to find a way to bring a Camaro-derivative to market to justify the expense of the platform/buildout/engineering? I can easily see the Corvette/Cadillac XLR selling with enough profit margin to see the Corvette/Cadillac XLR existing as is (plus giving GM the benefit of having a world-renouned 'halo' car). But what of the Camaro? I'm afraid to say it, but with GM's cash-crunch, how can GM justify a single Chevrolet-only-sports-car? Unless the Camaro sells well in volume, how can GM justify it's existence? What about a turbo DI-2.0l three-quarter-size Camaro-hatchback that finds life as a Monza? As much as I love the Firebird/Trans-Am names (& their history), the last thing I'd want to do is burden Pontiac with another "me-too" type vehicle. How about a Caddy sports car that is less "over-the-top" than the XLR?

[David]

One more thing to ponder: Does GM need to find a way to bring a Camaro-derivative to market to justify the expense of the platform/buildout/engineering? I can easily see the Corvette/Cadillac XLR selling with enough profit margin to see the Corvette/Cadillac XLR existing as is (plus giving GM the benefit of having a world-renouned 'halo' car). But what of the Camaro? I'm afraid to say it, but with GM's cash-crunch, how can GM justify a single Chevrolet-only-sports-car? Unless the Camaro sells well in volume, how can GM justify it's existence? What about a turbo DI-2.0l three-quarter-size Camaro-hatchback that finds life as a Monza? As much as I love the Firebird/Trans-Am names (& their history), the last thing I'd want to do is burden Pontiac with another "me-too" type vehicle. How about a Caddy sports car that is less "over-the-top" than the XLR?

Personally the dollars are already spent for the Camero, so you might as well let it go to market and sell what you can, if after the initial couple years of solid sales which help to recoupe the cost of the auto and it shows that it cannot live on it's own then you kill it again.

Pontiac is dead and no need to waste marketing dollars on another me too car for them. Possible as a luxury mid level performance auto for the GMC - Buick mid level line.

[ZL-1]

It appears, according to that other GM enthusiast website, that SAAB is officially for sale. Just the brand and the Trollhättan factory, not the engineering functions, which is understandable as they are very closely integrated into GME and are regarded as one of the best in the GM world.

If this is true, it appears I'll never buy a car built by GM unless I win the lottery: CTS was listed in Portugal from 60K Euro to 75K Euro - totally out of what I can afford... too bad... let's see where SAAB ends up and if an Astra-sized model makes it into production...

Edited December 2, 2008 by ZL-1

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The fact that it sustains the middle class is probably why it is so threatening to the powers that be. Seriously.

Chris

:AH-HA_wink:

You know too much for your own good, my friend!

From a sociological point of view, keeping the middle class is DETRIMENTAL to the elite right now.

What the elite has to try to do (to maintain their power) is "sustain" those under them enough so that they're happy enough to WORK HARD for those on top. Right now, that sustainability is being seriously jeopardized by energy and the financial crisis. Now the question is; will american middle class people accept less and work more or will they do something about it?

And THIS all ties directly into my topic about the UAW seizing control of GM and using it to their advantage. Because, as much as it will help GM, if the UAW is in fact busted, it will be a monumental blow to the middle class and the labor movement here in america.

Edited December 2, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

One more thing to ponder: Does GM need to find a way to bring a Camaro-derivative to market to justify the expense of the platform/buildout/engineering? I can easily see the Corvette/Cadillac XLR selling with enough profit margin to see the Corvette/Cadillac XLR existing as is (plus giving GM the benefit of having a world-renouned 'halo' car). But what of the Camaro? I'm afraid to say it, but with GM's cash-crunch, how can GM justify a single Chevrolet-only-sports-car? Unless the Camaro sells well in volume, how can GM justify it's existence? What about a turbo DI-2.0l three-quarter-size Camaro-hatchback that finds life as a Monza? As much as I love the Firebird/Trans-Am names (& their history), the last thing I'd want to do is burden Pontiac with another "me-too" type vehicle. How about a Caddy sports car that is less "over-the-top" than the XLR?

Or, how about we turn Pontiac into the niche company that it was supposed to be, KILL the Camaro and give them a TRUE halo via a new, unduplicated Firebird/Trans Am? And maybe even a 4 door version of the car. (Or Buick could have that)

Technically, Chevrolet could use the Corvette and an AWD Epsilon II Impala as halos.

:flame suit on:

EDIT: BTW, good to see you back! I've missed your insightful posts!

Edited December 2, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

I am truly stunned that anyone would choose Buick to remain as a US brand, it has been dead for years already. I can only see it as a sideshow at BPG dealers because China has paid for the development of a model or two. I see it as eternally a very minor player in the US market.

In fact, back when Olds was killed, if someone told me that I had to choose a GM brand to kill (and that Saturn was off-limits), Buick would have been my first choice. At the time, they had three versions of bland sedan and nothing else.

Sounds like we are about to see another mistake like that.

[cmattson]

Questions to ask:

The cost of getting rid of Pontiac

Killings Oldsmobile cost GM a percent of market share AND it cost GM an estimated $1b to negotiate the closing/transitioning of dealerships, etc. Since GM has combined the dealership channels of GMC/Pontiac/Buick, would closing a "Pontiac" really cost much at all? If Buick had cars to attract potential Pontiac purchasers (something GM would need to work on the timing of), how would the dealerships be affected--other than signage? Marketing materials are a non-factor: that crap gets updated practically every year anyways. The cost of closing a Pontiac may not be too bad--certainly not as costly as Oldsmobile turned out to be.

Getting rid of Saturn

Can Saturn be sold? With Saab, Hummer, and Volvo all on the market at the same time, selling Saturn would depress prices even further. I'm not sure Saturn could be sold for anything near it's worth. Since GM (smartly) managed Saturn dealership growth, most cities have just a handful of Saturn regionally-based dealerships. Being that the volume of Saturn dealerships are small, could a Buick/GMC dealership network absorb Saturn dealerships remaking themselves into Buick/GMC dealerships? Worse case scenario is that GM ends up buying back some of dealerships and shuttering themselves.

The sale of Hummer/Saab

Can the sale of Hummer/Saab offset some of the loses of the above-mentioned items? How sweet would it be for GM to shed itself of FOUR brands at a small-compared-to-Oldsmobile-net-cost? Personally, I'd target VW/Audi for Hummer. VW/Audi doesn't have a large US-presence in SUV's. Here's a lux/premium brand that fills a market-space for them. GM could contractually provide platforms & powertrains for the Hummer brand as necessary for as long as a purchaser would require.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It appears, according to that other GM enthusiast website, that SAAB is officially for sale. Just the brand and the Trollhättan factory, not the engineering functions, which is understandable as they are very closely integrated into GME and are regarded as one of the best in the GM world.

If this is true, it appears I'll never buy a car built by GM unless I win the lottery: CTS was listed in Portugal from 60K Euro to 75K Euro - totally out of what I can afford... too bad... let's see where SAAB ends up and if an Astra-sized model makes it into production...

Hmm...

I thought PCS said that Saab has a savior?!?!

Anyway.. Why couldn't Opel (or even Vauxhall) be expanded into the position that Saab occupied in GM's portfolio?

In all honesty, why couldn't Cadillac cover that ground anyway?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I am truly stunned that anyone would choose Buick to remain as a US brand, it has been dead for years already. I can only see it as a sideshow at BPG dealers because China has paid for the development of a model or two. I see it as eternally a very minor player in the US market.

In fact, back when Olds was killed, if someone told me that I had to choose a GM brand to kill (and that Saturn was off-limits), Buick would have been my first choice. At the time, they had three versions of bland sedan and nothing else.

Sounds like we are about to see another mistake like that.

Buick is probably appealing because of profit margins as well..

Simply put, GM can engineer a platform and sell it for a lot more money with a Buick tri-shield on it than they could likely get with a Pontiac arrowhead.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I attached a 37 page PDF file from Automotive News that details GM's restructing plan, as given to Congress today.

According to an Automotive News e-mail alert, GM is going to do the following:

GM will focus on its "core brands" of Chevrolet, Buick, GMC and Cadillac, the plan says. GM will sell Saab, shrink Pontiac to a niche brand and consider selling or closing Saturn, GM President Fritz Henderson told reporters at a briefing today.

GM also plans to trim its U.S. dealerships from today's 6,450 to about 4,700, Henderson said. It will cut about one-third of the nameplates from its vehicle lineup.

Also, for those of you that are not Saturn fans, here's a tid-bit of info that may make you happy:

Under its franchise agreement with Saturn dealers, GM will seek a new course for that brand, Henderson said. Asked whether GM would sell or fold Saturn, he said he would not eliminate any options.

The brand "is just not successful," Henderson said.

Also, Rick Wagoner has accepted a pay cut:

Wagoner has agreed to accept a salary of $1 next year. The GM plan includes cuts in pay for other senior executives, and the company says it is ceasing use of its jets.

GM__s_restructuring_plan_for_long_term_viability__12_02_2008.pdf

[ZL-1]

Anyway.. Why couldn't Opel (or even Vauxhall) be expanded into the position that Saab occupied in GM's portfolio?

In all honesty, why couldn't Cadillac cover that ground anyway?

Just by looking at the Insignia, I say that GM will do just that, except Opel won't be appealing in the way a properly managed SAAB could be. I think SAAB will just fade into the History books.

Cadillac is not taken seriously outside the US and it will take time and effort (i.e., a sh*tload of money) to properly establish it. That is a serious issue GM has to think about.

Edited December 2, 2008 by ZL-1

[titan]

Buick is probably appealing because of profit margins as well..

Simply put, GM can engineer a platform and sell it for a lot more money with a Buick tri-shield on it than they could likely get with a Pontiac arrowhead.

Very true.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

6.1 Marketing and Retail Operations—Today, General Motors competes in the United States with 8 brands. Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, and GMC represent the company’s core brands, accounting for 83% of current sales.

I don't really understand how this is the case...

Pontiac is something like the 2nd best selling passenger car division at GM. In comparison, Buick moves peanuts... Unless they're counting China (which they shouldn't)

The company will focus substantially all of its product development and marketing resources in support of these brands. This will result in improvements in awareness, sales, and customer satisfaction for these 4 core brands.

Yay...

Significant efforts have been expended to combine the Buick, Pontiac and GMC (BPG) brands into a single dealer distribution network, with approximately 80% of these brands’ combined sales sold through BPG-branded stores. This channel will be fully competitive in terms of total entries offered, with Pontiac serving as a specialty/niche brand with reduced product offerings solely intended to complement Buick and GMC models and reinforce the channel as a whole.

Part of me is excited about this and part of me is very nervous about it...

Does this mean that Pontiac will actually build brand equity or is this GM speak for "we're phasing out Pontiac too"

Pontiac has potential as a volume division, but I can see where Chevrolet gets the nod and I can see a great future for Pontiac in this, if it is managed right.

Hummer has recently been put under strategic review, which includes the possible sale of the brand.

KEEP IT! Or give the HX to GMC.

GM will also immediately undertake and expedite a strategic review of the Saab brand globally.

SELL IT! No more money thrown in black holes!

Finally, Saturn, which has performed below expectations, has a unique franchise agreement and operating structure. As part of the Plan, the company will accelerate discussions with Saturn retailers and explore alternatives for the Saturn brand.

I really hope GM keeps Saturn. It has such great potential. I want a GM that consists of 6 strong nameplates, like in the golden era. Saturn is effectively Oldsmobile.

As indicated in Table 5, the Plan focuses the company’s resources in the U.S. around a smaller, more profitable set of nameplates (40 by 2012)

Not sure if this is good or bad...

Is this "surrendering" for the sake of the asians that the politicians seem to adore?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

In the Plan, further shifts to smaller displacement gas engines will occur—8-cylinder engines are replaced by 6-cylinder engines, 6-cylinder engines are replaced by 4-cylinder engines. More extensive use of turbo-charging is enabling the shift to smaller displacement

That scares me...

Three of the last four Car/Truck of the Year awards in the United States were awarded to GM products—the Saturn Aura, Chevrolet Silverado, and Chevrolet Malibu. Very recently, GM’s Opel brand won European Car of the Year for its new Insignia sedan, derivatives of which will be manufactured in the United States in the near future.

Why is this not advertised?

Now, if only the idiots in DC will actually read the plans...

[ZL-1]

Pontiac is something like the 2nd best selling passenger car division at GM. In comparison, Buick moves peanuts... Unless they're counting China (which they shouldn't)

I'm sure they are counting China, as they should. It's pretty obvious that Buick China and Buick US will exist in parallell (same lineup?) as their middle brand between Chevrolet and Cadillac.

Chevy, Cadillac, Buick and GMC brands will be the core (i.e. surviving) brands. Pontiac will offer a couple of RWD models (Solstice + G8?) until those models are phased out and then.......... no replacements for those and........ voilá, shutdown complete! Saturn will be more expensive because of the stand alone stores, but it can be starved of product and shut down as well...

[titan]

I attached a 37 page PDF file from Automotive News that details GM's restructing plan, as given to Congress today.

According to an Automotive News e-mail alert, GM is going to do the following:

Also, for those of you that are not Saturn fans, here's a tid-bit of info that may make you happy:

Also, Rick Wagoner has accepted a pay cut:

Everything in the report focuses on BRANDS, as I've been saying. According to the report, page 18 states that GM's "Core Brands" (Chevy,Buick,GMC,Caddy) account for 83% of sales. I don't have problem with it either. Pontiac might work well as a highly focused, niche brand. The report says that's offerings will "specialty" entries that only complement Buick and GMC's lineups. That would help to keep sharing platforms to a minimum (does the enthusiast brand really need a FWD midsize sedan?), and also keep it alive. I'm guessing Pontiac's future includes mutiple coupes. The Solstice, a Mid RWD coupe, and a high performance light weight coupe would be cool. Pairing Buick and GMC, a la' Jag/Land Rover, isn't a bad idea either. I just can't help but wonder what their respective lineup will be going forward. Saturn... it's time to fold it, IMHO.

The entire document is fascinating; a very good read.

[BuddyP]

Aside from Hummer and Saab, each brand could still stay but with a narrowed lineup of cars. There is no reason for each brand having a version of a platform. Multiple platforms and rebadges are fully the fault of GM being passive to the dealers. GM needs to STOP following the dealers orders and tell the dealers what they will sell.

Chevy can stay pretty much as it is... it's the bread and butter.

Pontiac... Solstice, G6 (but make it more performance oriented), G8

Buick... Enclave and a new mid/large size car (yup, 2 models)

Saturn... Sky, aura, Astra Vue (4 models because they are independant dealerships)

Cadillac... CTS, STS, Escalade

I left aura, g6 and Malibu in since that is a high volume platform, and this gives 3 different design choices for buyers to choose from. However I still don't see a need for Buick. The Enclave could be moved over to Cadillac as a SRX replacement. In that case, give Saturn a larger "Lucerne" type car.

GMC doesn't need to be here since it consists fully of rebadges.

Sell Saab and Hummer.

[AAS]

...

GMC doesn't need to be here since it consists fully of rebadges.

Sell Saab and Hummer.

I don't get why people keep saying that GMC can go away because it is re-badges. What you guys are missing (and others have pointed out) is that GMC might be full of (almost) re-badges, but they sell despite that! People will always buy GMC and Chevy trucks, so why alienate one of those groups of buyers?

[pow]

I attached a 37 page PDF file from Automotive News that details GM's restructing plan, as given to Congress today.

According to an Automotive News e-mail alert, GM is going to do the following:

Also, for those of you that are not Saturn fans, here's a tid-bit of info that may make you happy:

While I like Saab, Saturn, and Hummer, they simply don't sell enough cars to merit huge R&D investment, which will be required of a brand with its own unique products. GM has better-selling brands, Cadillac, Buick, and GMC, that target the same luxury, premium, and truck segments.

Eliminating Saab, Saturn, and Hummer gives GM the potential to have just four primary product developers:

Chevrolet (US and Korea)

Cadillac (US)

Opel (Europe)

Holden (Australia)

Buick, Pontiac, and GMC dealers can be distributors of existing cars around the world. For example, Opel sedans can be sold as Buicks in the US and China. Holdens and smaller Opels can be sold as Pontiacs. GMC can continue selling Chevrolet trucks, while carrying over existing vehicles, like the H3 and H3T.

As long as these brands - Buick, Pontiac, and GMC - don't lose GM money, I don't see the risk of 'importing' these niche vehicles over. GM can't justify the development of vehicles like VE or Alpha in the US - frankly, most American consumers don't give a damn if their sedan is Epsilon II or "performance-oriented" Zeta - but these vehicles are the mainstay of local markets like Australia, so let them exist. Besides, shutting down BPG dealerships will be costly; Pontiac and GMC still sell in huge numbers. Saab and Saturn, on the other hand, have much smaller dealer bases, while Hummer is partnered with Cadillac.

Of course, the main four 'product-developing' groups - Chevrolet, Cadillac, Opel, and Holden - can manufacture their product anywhere the world. An Opel Insignia can be assembled not just in Europe, but also in the US or China, as a Buick.

Edited December 2, 2008 by empowah

[Camino LS6]

Very cohesive plan.

I'm with FOG on the issue of Pontiac - this could be the start of something great or the beginning of the end.

We may finally be rid of the albatross of Saturn.

[gm4life]

Very cohesive plan.

I'm with FOG on the issue of Pontiac - this could be the start of something great or the beginning of the end.

We may finally be rid of the albatross of Saturn.

That day can't soon enough no more Saturn, cars that Pontiac should have got. Do you see Pontiac going away or refocusing of them to purely cars and maybe a new G6 the rest being performance? Or do you see this as the begining of the end or do you think GM is smart enough not to kill them? It happend with Olds and it will happen again if Pontiac goes, they will go to Nissan/Dodge just watch. Although I am hopefully after reading this in these forums and the pdf sounds like Pontiac will stay... What do you personally think though Camino? Am I wasting my time praying for Pontiac?

[Camino LS6]

Certainly not a waste of time, but not a done deal yet by any means.

I am hopeful, but cautiously so.

But I think that the days of Pontiac SUVs and rental cars are over - thankfully.

[SAmadei]

That day can't soon enough no more Saturn, cars that Pontiac should have got. Do you see Pontiac going away or refocusing of them to purely cars and maybe a new G6 the rest being performance? Or do you see this as the begining of the end or do you think GM is smart enough not to kill them? It happend with Olds and it will happen again if Pontiac goes, they will go to Nissan/Dodge just watch. Although I am hopefully after reading this in these forums and the pdf sounds like Pontiac will stay... What do you personally think though Camino? Am I wasting my time praying for Pontiac?

While Pontiac may fill a niche, as long as BPG is treated as a brand, marketing-wise and dealer-wise, Pontiac is going to need to be niche RWD performance cars _AND_ small slightly premium cars, such as the G3 or G5. The reason for this is simple... the dealers need something in this bracket, to have a "full line" and because Buick is not going to successfully field a rebadged Aveo or Cobalt.

In seeing Saturn go away, I am sad to see the Sky go. IMHO, it should go upmarket and to Buick.

[gm4life]

Certainly not a waste of time, but not a done deal yet by any means.

I am hopeful, but cautiously so.

But I think that the days of Pontiac SUVs and rental cars are over - thankfully.

I know not everyone likes my Pontiac CUV, but I do, but seriously I hope your right I still think a new G6 on the EP II designed right that handles well with the G8 and Solstice along with a large sports coupe would be a great Pontiac. I do think one FWD model (G6) is still a good idea. I just hope you are right, but Saturn on chopping block is great news for me and you. Could Pontiac get Opels?

[Camino LS6]

There's a whole lot of wait and see time before any guess will be worth a damn.

[carman21]

Questions to ask:

The cost of getting rid of Pontiac

Killings Oldsmobile cost GM a percent of market share AND it cost GM an estimated $1b to negotiate the closing/transitioning of dealerships, etc. Since GM has combined the dealership channels of GMC/Pontiac/Buick, would closing a "Pontiac" really cost much at all? If Buick had cars to attract potential Pontiac purchasers (something GM would need to work on the timing of), how would the dealerships be affected--other than signage? Marketing materials are a non-factor: that crap gets updated practically every year anyways. The cost of closing a Pontiac may not be too bad--certainly not as costly as Oldsmobile turned out to be.

Getting rid of Saturn

Can Saturn be sold? With Saab, Hummer, and Volvo all on the market at the same time, selling Saturn would depress prices even further. I'm not sure Saturn could be sold for anything near it's worth. Since GM (smartly) managed Saturn dealership growth, most cities have just a handful of Saturn regionally-based dealerships. Being that the volume of Saturn dealerships are small, could a Buick/GMC dealership network absorb Saturn dealerships remaking themselves into Buick/GMC dealerships? Worse case scenario is that GM ends up buying back some of dealerships and shuttering themselves.

The sale of Hummer/Saab

Can the sale of Hummer/Saab offset some of the loses of the above-mentioned items? How sweet would it be for GM to shed itself of FOUR brands at a small-compared-to-Oldsmobile-net-cost? Personally, I'd target VW/Audi for Hummer. VW/Audi doesn't have a large US-presence in SUV's. Here's a lux/premium brand that fills a market-space for them. GM could contractually provide platforms & powertrains for the Hummer brand as necessary for as long as a purchaser would require.

Pontiac will become a niche brand, that is fine, just remember that Scion is also a niche brand...

Saturn could be bought by some Silicon Valley start-up or existing tech firm that wants to build an electric car for the masses. Think Tesla or Fisker....

Hummer will likely be bought by the other automotive manufacturers in the US, like PACCAR or Navistar.

Saab will be bought by some Chinese group like SAIC.

Volvo seems like a good buy for VW or BMW.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't get why people keep saying that GMC can go away because it is re-badges. What you guys are missing (and others have pointed out) is that GMC might be full of (almost) re-badges, but they sell despite that! People will always buy GMC and Chevy trucks, so why alienate one of those groups of buyers?

Exactly... It's pure profit.

[vt_hokie]

We may finally be rid of the albatross of Saturn.

Saturns sold well when they were actually unique and better than typical GM crap. I miss my old dent resistant Spring Hill built SL2, but I have no interest in the imported Opel rebadges. I will likely never purchase another GM vehicle.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

BTW, what is the product that "is more efficient than a Smart car" that GM is planning to introduce? Anyone know?

[vt_hokie]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

That's the attitude that typifies GM. Ignore the customers who were loyal to the original Saturn concept, and tell them exactly that! GM deserves to go bankrupt, as far as I'm concerned, and I don't want my tax dollars subsidizing the company.

[gmcbob]

I'm disappointed to see a lot of the GM faithful so down on Saturn. I actually really like my 2008 V6 Saturn Vue a lot, and I'll be sad to see the Saturn brand go away. And this is from a "die hard", "GM Guy" whose Dad worked for Buick Motor Division during the glory days of the 60s/70s/and early 80s, and who has personally driven/owned over the course of his driving life; an 82 Regal, an 86 Parisienne, an 88 (RWD) Cutlass Supreme, a 98 Camaro Z28, a 98 Jimmy and two GMT800s (2001 and 2004 Sierras). I'll miss Saturn, the division that wasn't typical GM, but somehow was still really kind of cool in a way that it only could have been part of GM, at all times throughout it's history. I understand where GM was trying to take the brand recently. I'm disappointed that it didn't wholly catch on in the marketplace, given the fact it's lineup is actually pretty competitive with the imports, and draws a lot of buyers into the GM family that normally consider imports only.

[Chicagoland]

The loyal Saturn buyers sure dissappered to the next trend and so on. Those that are so petrified of buying a car it has to have "one price". I say same thing, get real and learn how to negotiate!

Anyway, it about time they finally say what is really on the chopping block instead of 'oh nothing to see here'.

[Camino LS6]

I'm disappointed to see a lot of the GM faithful so down on Saturn. I actually really like my 2008 V6 Saturn Vue a lot, and I'll be sad to see the Saturn brand go away. And this is from a "die hard", "GM Guy" whose Dad worked for Buick Motor Division during the glory days of the 60s/70s/and early 80s, and who has personally driven/owned over the course of his driving life; an 82 Regal, an 86 Parisienne, an 88 (RWD) Cutlass Supreme, a 98 Camaro Z28, a 98 Jimmy and two GMT800s (2001 and 2004 Sierras). I'll miss Saturn, the division that wasn't typical GM, but somehow was still really kind of cool in a way that it only could have been part of GM, at all times throughout it's history. I understand where GM was trying to take the brand recently. I'm disappointed that it didn't wholly catch on in the marketplace, given the fact it's lineup is actually pretty competitive with the imports, and draws a lot of buyers into the GM family that normally consider imports only.

The concept behind it was flawed from the start, it began as a de facto admission of incompetence - not an auspicious beginning. It then became a massive revenue drain that has never given GM any ROI in it's entire history. Worse than that it compromised the established brands (fatally for Olds) and continues to do so today. Had it been done within the framework of existing brands, it may have been the exact opposite of what it is. But hindsight is 20/20, and the bottom line is that the Saturn experiment failed.

Sad maybe, but that's the truth.

[vt_hokie]

GM could at least offer a car with dent resistant plastic body panels! Not everyone prefers dings to slightly larger panel gaps.

[AAS]

GM could at least offer a car with dent resistant plastic body panels! Not everyone prefers dings to slightly larger panel gaps.

They offer at least one, that I know of. It bases in the low $40k's, and only seats two.

[Chicagoland]

The 'Saturn Project' should have been a J car replacement in 1990, and all the $Billions spent could have gotten improved W, G, N, and Y cars too!

[haypops]

The Saturn concept that you all are so happy to see go was to build a high quality small car with very high American content by UAW workers that exchanged the worst of poor work rules for a share of the responsibilty and the profit. The 40 mpg accomplishment was ahead of its time too. I share some of VThokie's disapointment. Where I disagree with him is that I am more than happy enough with my second choice (GM).

[prinzSD]

Questions to ask:

The cost of getting rid of Pontiac

Killings Oldsmobile cost GM a percent of market share AND it cost GM an estimated $1b to negotiate the closing/transitioning of dealerships, etc. Since GM has combined the dealership channels of GMC/Pontiac/Buick, would closing a "Pontiac" really cost much at all? If Buick had cars to attract potential Pontiac purchasers (something GM would need to work on the timing of), how would the dealerships be affected--other than signage? Marketing materials are a non-factor: that crap gets updated practically every year anyways. The cost of closing a Pontiac may not be too bad--certainly not as costly as Oldsmobile turned out to be.

Getting rid of Saturn

Can Saturn be sold? With Saab, Hummer, and Volvo all on the market at the same time, selling Saturn would depress prices even further. I'm not sure Saturn could be sold for anything near it's worth. Since GM (smartly) managed Saturn dealership growth, most cities have just a handful of Saturn regionally-based dealerships. Being that the volume of Saturn dealerships are small, could a Buick/GMC dealership network absorb Saturn dealerships remaking themselves into Buick/GMC dealerships? Worse case scenario is that GM ends up buying back some of dealerships and shuttering themselves.

The sale of Hummer/Saab

Can the sale of Hummer/Saab offset some of the loses of the above-mentioned items? How sweet would it be for GM to shed itself of FOUR brands at a small-compared-to-Oldsmobile-net-cost? Personally, I'd target VW/Audi for Hummer. VW/Audi doesn't have a large US-presence in SUV's. Here's a lux/premium brand that fills a market-space for them. GM could contractually provide platforms & powertrains for the Hummer brand as necessary for as long as a purchaser would require.

As an owner of Pontiacs, Buick was never in my radar even with the GNX Grand National nor will it ever be on my list. There are many other brand I would consider befor Buick would appear on my list of must have cars.

[Camino LS6]

As an owner of Pontiacs, Buick was never in my radar even with the GNX Grand National nor will it ever be on my list. There are many other brand I would consider befor Buick would appear on my list of must have cars.

I have to agree. My last two, and next one, new car purchases have gone to Pontiac. I can't imagine ever buying a new Buick.