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GM Studies Killing Saab, Saturn, Pontiac

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Automotive News

November 26, 2008 - 6:32 pm ET

DETROIT -- General Motors is studying the idea of killing the Saab, Saturn and Pontiac brands as it seeks U.S. rescue loans, Bloomberg News reported today.

Bloomberg cited unnamed sources.

A GM spokesman declined comment, the news service said. The automaker is preparing to submit a detailed turnaround plan to Congress on Tuesday, followed by hearings next week in its quest for a federal loan to avert a cash shortage.

GM already has said it may sell Hummer.

GM's board will meet Sunday and Monday, both regularly scheduled meetings, to review the plan to be presented to Congress, Bloomberg said. Only a small portion of that plan will be made public.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/20081126/A...paign_id=alerts

Link to Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=amIqBBYGRh5Q

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S

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How can they kill just Pontiac if they're now integrated into the Buick and GMC brands too?

IMHO, I still think this "too many brands" idea that our so called "experts" who "analyze" the auto industry keep harping on is just totally stupid. I think GM needs to take advantage of the brands they do have and just go gangbusters making each one of them really bad ass - like they used to be in the 60s.

Pontiac's would sell like gangbusters if they had a really cool rear drive sedan based off the CTS platform that was priced correctly - a sedan and a coupe (with current Pontiac styling). I also think GM should have two North American versions of the Commodore - the G8 and the Buick Park Avenue from China - they'd get much more return on their investment that way. And while I'm on the subject of Buick, whatever happened to that really nice convertible concept car from a few years back? Now that should be coming out along with the Camaro, again, they'd get a much better return on their investment. And as far as having a gas mileage car for the PBG group, why not have a Pontiac version of the Astra in there too (instead of the Cobalt)? It's a nicer car that I think would suit the Pontiac lineup pretty well.

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This is pretty status quo...

From what I understand, GM regularly re-assesses the value of it's divisions.

And you'd better believe they're probably running assessments on all of the brands except Chevrolet and Cadillac right now. Hell, they might even be assessing the viability of Cadillac. After all, it's not exactly a huge success.

If I had to choose I'd eliminate divisions in this order:

1st Hummer

2nd Saab

3rd Saturn

4th Pontiac

I guess the current idea is to have Chevrolet as the volume division, Buick/GMC as the mid level franchise and Cadillac as the global luxury player.

I don't really see the point of Saturn being on that list since it is essentially Opel. But then again, Buick could easily BECOME Opel in the future.

I really pray that GM isn't going to close any of it's equitable and historic divisions.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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GM’s eight U.S. brands are the most among the domestic automakers, compared with four at Ford Motor Co. and three at Chrysler LLC. The Hummer sport-utility vehicle unit was put on the block in June. GM agreed to eliminate the 103-year-old Oldsmobile brand in 2000 because of declining sales.

Wouldn't Ford have 5?

GM has 1,071 outlets for Pontiac,
Which are also paired with other franchises, mostly GMC and Buick, so what would be the point?

This year, Pontiac sales are down 21 percent, compared with a 15 percent industrywide decline through October.

GM established the Saturn brand in 1985, five years before selling the first vehicle. Most of the U.S. dealers are stand alone, according to GM. Sales reached a peak in 1994 at 286,003 units, according to Autodata Corp. in Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey. This year’s deliveries are down 19 percent.

So... Saturn has an all new line up, yet Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars and Chevrolet clones and sales are down roughly the same amount at each division?!?! Gee, that's a hard decision to make. But it's a logical decision and we all know that GM doesn't do too well with those.

GM made its initial investment in Sweden’s Saab in 1990 and took full control in 2000. Its sales climbed to a record 47,914 in 2003. In 2008, they’re down 31 percent through October.

REPEAT AFTER ME: BLACK HOLE.... CUT THE LOSSES.... SEND ALL OF THE FUTURE SAAB PRODUCTS TO SATURN

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How can they kill just Pontiac if they're now integrated into the Buick and GMC brands too?

IMHO, I still think this "too many brands" idea that our so called "experts" who "analyze" the auto industry keep harping on is just totally stupid. I think GM needs to take advantage of the brands they do have and just go gangbusters making each one of them really bad ass - like they used to be in the 60s.

Pontiac's would sell like gangbusters if they had a really cool rear drive sedan based off the CTS platform that was priced correctly - a sedan and a coupe (with current Pontiac styling). I also think GM should have two North American versions of the Commodore - the G8 and the Buick Park Avenue from China - they'd get much more return on their investment that way. And while I'm on the subject of Buick, whatever happened to that really nice convertible concept car from a few years back? Now that should be coming out along with the Camaro, again, they'd get a much better return on their investment. And as far as having a gas mileage car for the PBG group, why not have a Pontiac version of the Astra in there too (instead of the Cobalt)? It's a nicer car that I think would suit the Pontiac lineup pretty well.

GM had 50% market share in 1960, they have 19% now and have added Hummer, Saab, Saturn (killed Olds) since then. They can't fund 8 brands to make them bad ass with 19% market share.

The Sigma platform is too expensive for anything that doesn't carry a Cadillac price tag. Astra is a money loser because of exchange rate, and they have a near 400 day supply on dealer lots, it is GM's slowest selling product. The Vellite was a cool looking concept, but GM doesn't have the money to make it, and a $40-45k Buick convertible probably won't sell in volume.

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GM had 50% market share in 1960, they have 19% now and have added Hummer, Saab, Saturn (killed Olds) since then. They can't fund 8 brands to make them bad ass with 19% market share.

The Sigma platform is too expensive for anything that doesn't carry a Cadillac price tag. Astra is a money loser because of exchange rate, and they have a near 400 day supply on dealer lots, it is GM's slowest selling product. The Vellite was a cool looking concept, but GM doesn't have the money to make it, and a $40-45k Buick convertible probably won't sell in volume.

Sure they can...

It all depends on the scope of the brand.

VW does this nicely in Europe.

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I have said for years they need to cut brands, I love this idea. Hummer has to go fast, it is a politically incorrect vehicle and image killer at this point. Saab is next out the door, if they could get even $10 million for either brand they should take it. Otherwise just close them down and eat the cost.

Step 2 is hard, because Saturn with 5 relatively new models is still a sales dud, and has it's own dealerships, making it easy to kill. I would lean toward closing down Saturn. Although Pontiac's and Buick's brand images are dead and their product lineups uncompetitive. GMC is totally redundant. GMC could become a fleet sale outlet for both work trucks, vans etc, but rental cars as well. I think GM should have one brand that all fleet sales go through so the resale values of the other brands aren't hurt.

I would only keep 2 of the B-P-G group to fill the space between Chevy and Cadillac. If GMC is all fleet and covers rental cars, I'd keep Buick for crossovers and cars based off Chevy but nicer. I would lean toward getting rid of Pontiac in that case.

The other option is get rid of B-P-G and keep Saturn, but people still think of Saturn as entry level, positioning them above Chevy is unlikely to work. If they had Oldsmobile, Chevy-Olds-Cadillac would be an epic lineup.

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So... Saturn has an all new line up, yet Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars and Chevrolet clones and sales are down roughly the same amount at each division?!?!

Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars?

G6 came out in '05, is now getting mild refresh

If we say the obvious G5=Cobalt, then it came out in '05

G3=Aveo obviously, but at least they just reworked it, so it's pretty fresh (if completely uninspiring)

Solstice came out in '06

G8 just came out, what, early this year? late last year?

Vibe is new

I'd say the G6 & G5 need redone soon, but I'm not sure "a bunch of outdated cars" is a good description.

Also don't forget that the Astra isn't really new, just new to us/US. Sky is just as old as the Solstice. Saturn's lineup is newer overall, though.

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General Motors is studying the idea of killing the Saab, Saturn and Pontiac brands

And what, exactly, does GM expect the effect of this announcement (even just the consideration of killing the brands) will be on Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac sales?

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We've all been talking and specualting about this at work for a while now. Something has too give. Too many names, too many twins. I agree with dropping Saab, not so sure about Saturn, the new models they've got are some of the best I've seen in a long while, beautiful cars. We all expect Pontiac to go away, right or wrong. There's an argument for both sides. They need to have just luxury, sporty and economical nameplates. The problem is how well Buick is doing in China, so do you make Buick the luxury flagship and drop Caddy or keep both. Pontiac is the sport, Chevrolet is the economy. I say GMC is a waste of time. Don't know, I don't envy the people that have to decide.

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Drop GMC. The truck market is dead right now and simply cannot support an entire division full of badge jobs.

Buick. Drop it. It should have been made competative with Acura 10 years ago. Too late now.

Pontiac. Keep it and simply import Holdens, and don't change anything on the Holdens. The commodore looks better than the G8.

SAAB. Keep it, because it's still profitable and generates posative cash flow.

Chevy. Keep it of course.

Caddillac. Keep it of course.

Hummer. Drop it. The H3 is a rip off and the H2 is a bigger rip off. They are both cool though.

Saturn drop it. I like Saturn, but it had no business being created in the first place.

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We've all been talking and specualting about this at work for a while now. Something has too give. Too many names, too many twins. I agree with dropping Saab, not so sure about Saturn, the new models they've got are some of the best I've seen in a long while, beautiful cars. We all expect Pontiac to go away, right or wrong. There's an argument for both sides. They need to have just luxury, sporty and economical nameplates. The problem is how well Buick is doing in China, so do you make Buick the luxury flagship and drop Caddy or keep both. Pontiac is the sport, Chevrolet is the economy. I say GMC is a waste of time. Don't know, I don't envy the people that have to decide.

I can agree with a lot of this here. Saab would be the most likely to go, then Pontiac.

Though at this point all 3 could easly go, and outside of the few us would even notice...

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I think you'll see the further reduction in nameplates, but without a truly "Chapter 11-ish" Government Event, you have mouths to feed and Olds proved you can't afford to buy 'em out.

I'd be shopping or closing Holden, Saab, Hummer & Saturn---although I believe its small, independent dealer body and Spring Hill would make an attractive acquisition for someone. Saab & Hummer are costly distractions.

With it's best lineup--possibly ever--GM has the potential to really do well with the 15% Market share they could naturally support. The credit crunch has decimated GM one hope of offering a deal. GMAC is tightening its lending footprint, daily...GM no longer has a captive finance company. Note that Chrysler is offering 0%.

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I'll say it again. Shutting Saturn down is a horrible idea because of the stand-alone dealerships. The costs associated with closing them down, and the subsequent lawsuits (this is America after all) would cost GM an arm, a leg, a lung, half a liver, a testicle, the duodenum and a cornea. I'm not sure what kind of sales network Saab has, my local dealership is rolled in with Cadillac and BPG. Shutting Pontiac is the most cost-effective way to shut a brand if GM decides that is necessary and neither Hummer nor Saab can be sold.

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>>"Drop GMC

Saab- Keep it, because it's still profitable and generates positive cash flow"<<

Problem here WRT consistancy of reasoning is: GMC is also profitable & generates cash flow, with far less investment vs. saab.

>>"GM had 50% market share in 1960"<<

GM had 46% marketshare in 1960 (2,792,480 units vs. the domestic market total of 6,029,943), and only if you include the domestic brands only; that percentage would be slightly less if you include the smattering of imports.

GM also only had 34% in 1930 (990,442 vs, domestic industry total of 2,928,064)... the '60s were the spike vs. the overall history of GM's marketshare.

>>"The problem is how well Buick is doing in China, so do you make Buick the luxury flagship and drop Caddy or keep both."<<

But Buick China & Buick U.S.A. share nothing but the nameplate- they are autonomous to each other. Offing one would have nothing to do with the other. I'm certainly not in favor of discontinuing Buick, but this is not a legitimate reason to base any decision on, either way. 'Dropping Cadillac' is ludicrious to even consider.

>>"...Cadillac. After all, it's not exactly a huge success"<<

Source ??

Edited by balthazar

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Pontiac. Keep it and simply import Holdens, and don't change anything on the Holdens. The commodore looks better than the G8.

.

Last month, not even one G8 was sold for every Pontiac dealer. Unless Pontiac dealers can sell like 50 times as many Holdens as they already do, I just don't see that as viable.

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I would be prepared for an announcement soon of more employee layoffs and plant closings, most likely before GM goes before Congress next week.

I would be thinking worse than that....

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Last month, not even one G8 was sold for every Pontiac dealer. Unless Pontiac dealers can sell like 50 times as many Holdens as they already do, I just don't see that as viable.

The G8 is a dud, I I don't see any more Holdens making their way here after these numerous failures....

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I love these "unnamed sources". They could be anyone, saying anything. Hell I could be one.

Edited by Dodgefan

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I love these "unnamed sources". They could be anyone, saying anything. Hell I could be one.

If you lived in Detroit, maybe......

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Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars?

G6 came out in '05, is now getting mild refresh

If we say the obvious G5=Cobalt, then it came out in '05

G3=Aveo obviously, but at least they just reworked it, so it's pretty fresh (if completely uninspiring)

Solstice came out in '06

G8 just came out, what, early this year? late last year?

Vibe is new

Now before I get into this, I think Pontiac should stay...

G6, most unrefined between all Epsilons (Aura, Malibu)

G5... we already have a Cobalt

G3... we already have a Aveo

Vibe... Toyota

Solstice and G8 are really the only two unique vehicles they have.

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This absoluty ferusterates me... Why does Pontiac keep getting on the list for the chopping block but nothing is ever said about Buick? I'd have to go back and look at the numbers but I think Saturn even outsells Buick by a little? Heck, other than the fact that the Enclave is nicer than the Outlook, Saturn as a better lineup than Buick, and I think Saturn would even have more potential if properly marketed. But Pontiac would continue to be a top linup if they ditch the rebadged G5 and G3 for some significant variations to take their place.

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This absoluty ferusterates me... Why does Pontiac keep getting on the list for the chopping block but nothing is ever said about Buick? I'd have to go back and look at the numbers but I think Saturn even outsells Buick by a little? Heck, other than the fact that the Enclave is nicer than the Outlook, Saturn as a better lineup than Buick, and I think Saturn would even have more potential if properly marketed. But Pontiac would continue to be a top linup if they ditch the rebadged G5 and G3 for some significant variations to take their place.

Buick outsells them if you include China.

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The easy answer is that Buick is strong in China, might as well try to make it a world brand. Pontiac is NA only and lives on uninspired rebadges. Plus, Pontiac has more overlap with Chevy than Buick does.

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tell me this

let me qualify this by saying i've got some drink on me

as a midwestern white boy who grew up on GM product

why does it have to be about 'which brands will GM cut'

we have Honda, Mazda, TOTOYA, mistushi (been there done that), subru, all these asian banrds, SUzkui, help me out here, KIA,

why do the AMERICAN BRANDS have to go away?

why can't GM fold a grratly reduced Pontiac and Buick lineup into chevy and let BPG-chevy exist, and then keep satur/caddy/opel as chanel 2 in north maerica. PLEASE WHY ARE YOU FORCING ME TO HAVE TO BUY JAPANESE CRAP.

sautnr dude left a message for mew today and it looks like an unrefusable offer on the astra. its about time. and now your gonna shut it down? BAstrds.

Edited by regfootball

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we have Honda, Mazda, TOTOYA, mistushi (been there done that), subru, all these asian banrds, SUzkui, help me out here, KIA,

why do the AMERICAN BRANDS have to go away?

The Asian companies are making profit (mitsubishi may not be, they seem to be dying), the American ones aren't. If you aren't making money, you go out of business or slim down. Same reason Circuit City is closing 150 stores, while Best Buy isn't or why Linens N Things is closing all stores, but Bed, Bath and Beyond isn't.

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GM would have never had this problem of having overlap if they had actually made good on their word for no more rebadges. Pontiac could have been a great brand with two or three top notch products, but instead we got a bunch of rebadges and vehicles that didn't fit with the Pontiac image at all. And they still don't get it now that Pontiac is getting a G3. You don't get volume by producing a bunch of half-assed cars that nobody wants.

Imagine if only Buick and Chevrolet or GMC had only received Lambdas, only Pontiac received the Solstice, only Chevrolet received the Cobalt...think of all the extra money GM would have had to put toward some really kick ass product. Now GM is left with a ton of dated vehicles to update and nobody's buying!

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What they've been guilty of for too long is abandoning Sloan's concept and homogenizing all the brands, not merely in rebadges, which they have moved away from largely (G3 and G5 aside), but in market and price. Instead of increasing prices at Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile and Saturn to keep pace with premium imports, they allowed each division to chase volume at the expense of image and margin. They still have not corrected that, and everytime they try hordes of customers and dealers howl and complain that prices have too high.

As for division viability and volumes, as I have indicated elsewhere, a $3000 gross margin per vehicle on a mere 300,000 Pontiacs a year (including Canada and Mexico easily possible even now) would give GM $900 million a year to spend on product development. Without sharing platforms that should be enough to develop a brand-new model for the division every year. With a 10 year cycle between platform changes and a new model change every 5 years (Toyota's standard), that's enough to support at least 7 unique models. And that is without sharing models with Holden, or platforms with Cadillac, Buick, Opel or Chevrolet.

If, and this is the real problem facing the domestic automakers, if they can make those margins per vehicle, they can easily support every brand with a broad range of fresh, competitive vehicles. The problem is they don't. Until they do they cannot support adequate development for any number of brands. Not 4, not 3, not 2, not even one. Cutting one or more brands will not change that.

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While I would hate to see GM lose any of those divisions, the harsh reality is that some need to go. I own two Saturns and my two previous cars were Saabs but if they killed both divisions, I would understand. It would obviously kill the resale value of the two Saturns I currently own but so would a GM bankruptcy. I also would have no problem seeing Pontiac go. GM MUST get smaller to survive. They do no have the market share to justify all the brands they have now.

I know a lot of you hate to hear it and it pains me deeply to say it, but Pontiac is the brand it makes the most sense to shut down. They have been starved of competitive product, their reputation is shot, and there are almost no stand alone dealerships anymore so it would be relatively cheap to shut it down. If GM decided to keep Saturn, it could then be folded in with Buick and GMC to broaden the dealership base. Personally, I think GMC should go away as well. Buick, thanks to their popularity in China are being set up as a world brand. Much of the next LaCrosse was designed in China.

If it were up to me, I would kill/sell brands in the following order:

1) Hummer

2) Saab

3) Pontiac

4) Saturn

I was at the Saturn dealership last night and was talking to my salesman. I qualify what he said by stating clearly that I live in SE Michigan so that tends to amplify things in the domestics favor. He told me two things that surprised me:

1) Sales at their dealership have been strong in spite of the downturn and their sales have only recently started to decline.

2) He was talking with a friend of his that was a salesman at a different dealership/brand. That salesman had a friend that was a salesman at a stand alone Pontiac dealership that has yet to sell a car THIS MONTH! Ouch!

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All previous posts have failed to identify the Current real issue with GM:

They can no longer finance their own product--therefore, every 140% (or unlimited before that) LTV vehicle they rolled out of showrooms 12 months ago CANNOT be sold now. And when GM customers return for GM cars/trucks, they find their leasing & financing options (assuming they aren't buried upside down) are extremely limited and uncompetitive.

No Leasing, No Zero% Financing and no bank that'll finance negative equity like GMAC used to....the death spiral mentioned in other, unmentionable web sites has come to pass...

The product issues are just a manifestation of the corporate ADD and inability to truly see the market's needs beyond the next business quarter results---they are the net results of a failed organization. Those failures then forced GM to sell GMAC to Cerberus---Now both are in credit-hell without the resources needed to effectively survive the current downturn without both getting Gov't handouts.

Cutting brands must be looked at as necessary amputation for the rest to survive. It sux, but GM doesn't have the luxury of time---coulda been different if they were listening to the right people years ago (Perot, York)---but it was more expedient to buy them off....

Now we're going to lose a number of American icons because of that behavior...but it does look like I'm going to get my wish---RW looks like he's living on borrowed time.

Edited by enzl

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I have entertained the Idea of rolling the Saturn Aura and Astra to Pontiac and kill the rest of Saturn. Kill ther G6 and G5.

Sell Saab.

You eiither fix Pontiac or kill it as who would buy that mess.

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What they've been guilty of for too long is abandoning Sloan's concept and homogenizing all the brands, not merely in rebadges, which they have moved away from largely (G3 and G5 aside), but in market and price. Instead of increasing prices at Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile and Saturn to keep pace with premium imports, they allowed each division to chase volume at the expense of image and margin. They still have not corrected that, and everytime they try hordes of customers and dealers howl and complain that prices have too high.

As for division viability and volumes, as I have indicated elsewhere, a $3000 gross margin per vehicle on a mere 300,000 Pontiacs a year (including Canada and Mexico easily possible even now) would give GM $900 million a year to spend on product development. Without sharing platforms that should be enough to develop a brand-new model for the division every year. With a 10 year cycle between platform changes and a new model change every 5 years (Toyota's standard), that's enough to support at least 7 unique models. And that is without sharing models with Holden, or platforms with Cadillac, Buick, Opel or Chevrolet.

If, and this is the real problem facing the domestic automakers, if they can make those margins per vehicle, they can easily support every brand with a broad range of fresh, competitive vehicles. The problem is they don't. Until they do they cannot support adequate development for any number of brands. Not 4, not 3, not 2, not even one. Cutting one or more brands will not change that.

You make good points.

Sloan's concept is probably easier to apply if you've got 45% of the market, rather than the 19% GM currently has. Plus, I really doubt that it's possible to exert that sort of discipline on the dealers.

Shutting down brands is risky and expensive. But when you are spending money to develop and market products which directly compete against each other, I just don't see that as a good business model.

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I have entertained the Idea of rolling the Saturn Aura and Astra to Pontiac and kill the rest of Saturn. Kill ther G6 and G5.

Sell Saab.

You eiither fix Pontiac or kill it as who would buy that mess.

To some extent Pontiac has displayed a failure to thrive in it's advertised position as a "performance brand". I mean GM has certainly lavished lots of interesting products on Pontiac over the past decade. Solstice, GTO, G8. The best and most developed W-car ever, the GP GXP. A coupe and convertible version of the G6 - and the only G6 which was certified with a stick for awhile. During the 4th gen F-car days, the Firebird was blessed with a budget completely uncommensurate with the tiny sales volume it had.

Obviously this whole "American BMW" thing for Pontiac, hasn't stuck with the American public. Those that want a BMW, just go and buy the real thing. Those who are looking for something else, buy a Mazda or Scion. For a long time, I had wanted Pontiac to transform itself into a "youth brand", (regardless of which demographic actually purchased their cars), like Scion or Mazda or even Mini Cooper. It may be too late for even that now.

Edited by Chazman

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To some extent Pontiac has displayed a failure to thrive in it's advertised position as a "performance brand". I mean GM has certainly lavished lots of interesting products on Pontiac over the past decade. Solstice, GTO, G8. The best and most developed W-car ever, the GP GXP. A coupe and convertible version of the G6 - and the only G6 which was certified with a stick for awhile. During the 4th gen F-car days, the Firebird was blessed with a budget completely uncommensurate with the tiny sales volume it had.

Obviously this whole "American BMW" thing for Pontiac, hasn't stuck with the American public. Those that want a BMW, just go and buy the real thing. Those who are looking for something else, buy a Mazda or Scion. For a long time, I had wanted Pontiac to transform itself into a "youth brand", (regardless of which demographic actually purchased their cars), like Scion or Mazda or even Mini Cooper. It may be too late for even that now.

AGreed.

I'd also add that Pontiac has tried to have its cake (volume) & eat it too ('performance image')--most of the volume products simply didn't truly reflect the marketing slogan.

GM couldn't spot and exploit a niche well enough or quickly enough to make 'niche' brands work--that's why we see spotty 'excitement' product across GM--XLR, Solstice/Sky. original GTO, Aztek, SSR. et al....

It's tough to excel with a record like that.

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I'm assuming that if GM dropped the Saturn brand, I'd at least be able to get warranty work done on my Vue at other GM dealerships like they did with Olds (I certainly hope so).

But what will really sucks ass is that it will be worthless on a trade in now. I had a friend that bought an Oldsmobile Alero back in 1999 or 2000 and it tanked in value when they killed Olds. I don't talk to her these days, but I'd be very surprised if she's driving a GM product (unless she still owns that car of course).

Incidentally, I actually liked that car - it was a fully loaded black V6 (I think it was a V6). Of course, back in those days I was a GMC/Chevy truck/Camaro/Trans Am big old honkin' V8 rear wheel drive sort of ass hole, but still, it was a cool car for a GM front driver.

Ah, good old GM, the one brand (at the time) that actually had some pretty good little mileage cars with generally good overall styling and driving dynamics that appealed to younger professionals - and they killed it. Very, very, very stupid business decision. Yep, one of the dumbest decisions GM has made in the last 20 years, hands down.

Edited by gmcbob

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Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars?

Yep.

G6 came out in '05, is now getting mild refresh

Refresh or not, compared to the competition and especially the Aura, uit's WAY outdated.

If we say the obvious G5=Cobalt, then it came out in '05

And in comparison to the competition and especially the "wonder child" Astra that was supposed to save the world, it's outdated.

G3=Aveo obviously, but at least they just reworked it, so it's pretty fresh (if completely uninspiring)

The same Aveo that's been out for how long now?

Solstice came out in '06

It's main competition, the Miata, is brand new.

G8 just came out, what, early this year? late last year?

Vibe is new

I agree with that

I'd say the G6 & G5 need redone soon, but I'm not sure "a bunch of outdated cars" is a good description.

Notice, these are the two volume sellers. And I'm just quoting what I've heard both here and in the media.

Also don't forget that the Astra isn't really new, just new to us/US. Sky is just as old as the Solstice. Saturn's lineup is newer overall, though.

It's all about ROI.

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Drop GMC. The truck market is dead right now and simply cannot support an entire division full of badge jobs.

That's bad business.

That entire division of 'badge jobs' (eventhough they aren't) is straight profit. GM would have a nice little PROFITABLE niche if it kept GMC.

Buick. Drop it. It should have been made competative with Acura 10 years ago. Too late now.

That's abd business as well. Take Buick out of China and then see how GM's prospects look.

Pontiac. Keep it and simply import Holdens, and don't change anything on the Holdens. The commodore looks better than the G8.

As long as Opels would be Pontiacs as well, this will work.

SAAB. Keep it, because it's still profitable and generates posative cash flow.
Saab has NEVER made a profit and would be insignificant even if it were to.

Saturn drop it. I like Saturn, but it had no business being created in the first place.

But it can tap the import intenders that will NOT buy other GM products

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>>"...Cadillac. After all, it's not exactly a huge success"<<

Source ??

Umm... The SALES both in american and especially outside of america in relation to the competition.

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The easy answer is that Buick is strong in China, might as well try to make it a world brand. Pontiac is NA only and lives on uninspired rebadges. Plus, Pontiac has more overlap with Chevy than Buick does.

But the problem there is, GM has procclaimed that it needs VOLUME to survive.

VOLUME is what Pontiac provides, rebadges or not.

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>>"The problem is how well Buick is doing in China, so do you make Buick the luxury flagship and drop Caddy or keep both."<<

But Buick China & Buick U.S.A. share nothing but the nameplate- they are autonomous to each other. Offing one would have nothing to do with the other. I'm certainly not in favor of discontinuing Buick, but this is not a legitimate reason to base any decision on, either way. 'Dropping Cadillac' is ludicrious to even consider.

Isn't that part of the problem? GM produces a much finer car in China for Buick than they do here in the USA. Wouldn't it be better for GM to develop engineer and produce 1 set of Buicks for worldwide distribution? That would dramatically reduce R&D and production costs. A Buick should be more expensive than a chevy anyway, so when 2020 comes they'll probably be pretty close to 35MPG and avoid costing then a gas guzzler, because Chevy should still be the volume brand and offset the lower MPG of the luxury Buicks. Even if they don't the Gas Guzzler tax can just be added into the MSRP and then paid by GM.

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What they've been guilty of for too long is abandoning Sloan's concept and homogenizing all the brands, not merely in rebadges, which they have moved away from largely (G3 and G5 aside), but in market and price. Instead of increasing prices at Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile and Saturn to keep pace with premium imports, they allowed each division to chase volume at the expense of image and margin. They still have not corrected that, and everytime they try hordes of customers and dealers howl and complain that prices have too high.

As for division viability and volumes, as I have indicated elsewhere, a $3000 gross margin per vehicle on a mere 300,000 Pontiacs a year (including Canada and Mexico easily possible even now) would give GM $900 million a year to spend on product development. Without sharing platforms that should be enough to develop a brand-new model for the division every year. With a 10 year cycle between platform changes and a new model change every 5 years (Toyota's standard), that's enough to support at least 7 unique models. And that is without sharing models with Holden, or platforms with Cadillac, Buick, Opel or Chevrolet.

If, and this is the real problem facing the domestic automakers, if they can make those margins per vehicle, they can easily support every brand with a broad range of fresh, competitive vehicles. The problem is they don't. Until they do they cannot support adequate development for any number of brands. Not 4, not 3, not 2, not even one. Cutting one or more brands will not change that.

Finally, a voice or truth!

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The costs associated with closing them down, and the subsequent lawsuits (this is America after all) would cost GM an arm, a leg, a lung, half a liver, a testicle, the duodenum and a cornea.

Not the testicles and corneas!!! :yikes:

:P

The easy answer is that Buick is strong in China, might as well try to make it a world brand. Pontiac is NA only and lives on uninspired rebadges. Plus, Pontiac has more overlap with Chevy than Buick does.

Agreed. And the Insignia-turned-into-Regal worked pretty well wearing a Buick grille and bumper. Why not offer some Opels as Buicks in NA and why not have Pontiac remain as a Canada-and-Mexico-only brand since it's where they sell well?

SAAB could be sold... I was wondering if BMW bought MINI and offers small and fun FWD cars, could it have an interest in a niche brand for FWD cars bigger than the MINI but not as expensive as a BMW? A brand they could also market leveraging the Swedish environmentally-friendly culture?

Edited by ZL-1

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A step in the right direction. However, it smells like a head-fake just to get the Federal funding. The team running GM is obtuse to say the least.

That said, it's still not enough...

* Ax Pontiac, Saturn and Buick in North America. The brand names are just about worthless to all but the nostalgic.

* Sell Buick in China to SAIC.

* Sell Saab to anyone with cash - just get rid of it. It's always been a money loser and it always will be a money loser.

* Reposition GMC to sell only medium trucks and prepare to spin it off for cash (maybe Isuzu would have interest?).

* Ax HUMMER, but put the brand name up for sale.

* Start a new franchise called "Goodwrench Service" that existing Pontiac, GMC, Buick, HUMMER and Saturn dealers could sign up for. These dealers could stay in business selling used cars and offering service for all makes under the "Goodwrench" brand name as well as warranty claims for the axed brands.

Chevy and Cadillac is all that's needed. Flatten the management structure, cull the dead wood, squeeze the union a bit more than what was won for 2010 and we might see a profitable GM.

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They need Chevy, Cadillac and one brand in between. They need profit margin, not volume or anything else at this point.

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>>"Umm... The {Cadillac} SALES both in american and especially outside of america in relation to the competition."<<

Does Cadillac compete w/ audi?

Jan-Jun '08 Audi : 45,711

Jan-Jun '08 Cadi : 88,709

But here we are in smk-land {shudder}: basing "success" on sales numbers. Success in business is generally determined by profit, not volume per say. How in the world does ferrari manage to crank out so many different models with no sales volume ??? Easy- they're grotesquely overpriced for what you get = profit.

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Buick outsells them if you include China.

I don't care about China, nor do I EVER want to see a chinese Buick be imported into the US.

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I don't care about China, nor do I EVER want to see a chinese Buick be imported into the US.
Not even the new Regal (aka Opel Insignia)?

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KILL/SELL:

Saab, Saturn & Hummer.

DO NOT FU** WITH FOR FEAR OF AN A$$KICKING:

Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Cadillac.

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The huge, ginormous problem with selling Saab (or Hummer, for that matter) is that nobody has any money right now. GM wants to unload the brands to raise cash, but that requires a buyer.

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Very true.

Flip side of the coin:

Killing Oldsmobile COST GM millions already AND it

has been reported as most on here will remember

that it would have cost GM less to KEEP Oldsmobile

alive.... and in the end for what?

Euthanizing Olds meant GM gave up market share.

They have admitted that.

So in other words killing brands is NOT ever going

to be the answer unless the question is "How do you

permanently reduce market share?"

BUT

If you have to kill a Brand Saturn & Saab are both

leaches on GM's wallet and Hummer is a dirty word.

(I personally like Hummer but I like GMC more)

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You kill the division it cost ypu money and if ypu keep the division it cost ypu even more money.

It is like a gang greene leg you hate to lose it buyt sometimes you need to step back to move forward again.

The bottom line is if Pontiac, Saturn or Saab is not making money and it will cost you a lot of money you don't have to fix them you stop the infection.

The money put to Pontiac and the others could be used to make the profit centers of Pontiac and Cadillac better. It is no longer about Market Share it is profit. Who cares if you hold 30% of a market is you can't pay the bills.

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The plan that GM is looking at is to consolidate their market offerings between Chevrolet and Cadillac down to one brand. After all is said and done, Chevrolet will continue to compete with the same brands (minus some siblings and other potential fatalities.) however, GM will require more from Cadillac. Cadillac will be all GM has to compete against the world's finest. After the recession, Cadillac will need to offer vehicles that compete head-on with the luxury/ultra-luxury vehicles that remain. That will continue to increase the gap between Chevrolet and Cadillac.

Buick's ability to offer a wide range of products (cars, coupes, convertibles, CUVs, & SUVs) carrying a wide price range (currently $20k to mid-$40k) make it the best choice among the mid-tier/mid-luxury brands to choose from within GM's portfolio.

So... If Pontiac, SAAB, & Saturn were phased out...

Buick could have the SAAB 9-4X as a Rendezvous positioned under Enclave

Buick could have the Insignia-based Chinese Regal positioned under the new LaCrosse

Buick could get a version of the next-gen Astra family (or SAAB-Deltas; next gen 9-3) for entry-level premium compacts (Skylark, Skyhawk, Century or a new name altogether)

Buick could also sell the Alpha vehicle as a RWD performance coupe/convertible (Riviera)

Buick could also sell a premium delta-based Volt sibling...

All of them: Rendezvous, Enclave, Regal, LaCrosse, Delta-Buicks, Alpha-Buick, & Buick Volt could be sold in both China and the US.

All of them marketed under one brand internationally (we already know the Enclave will be exported to China and the LaCrosse will be sold both in the US and China.)

In addition... Buick's the only mid-tier brand that can demand a price tag high enough to justify sharing a Cadillac platform (Sigma) without it looking out of place in the brand:

- Does a RWD-midsize/large SAAB sedan fit SAAB's image?

- or does it fit Saturn's image? Either selling for $43k-$50k?

- Unfortunately, Pontiac is already having trouble selling a $30k RWD V6/V8 sedan.

The other 3 just don’t seem to work out.

It's a way to extend the use of an existing platform with little investment. I could argue that as of right now... a Buick-badged mid-$40k STS would sell better under the Buick brand. At least it wouldn't have the new CTS on the showroom floor competing with it. The Buick-STS would complement the new LaCrosse as a step up/Buick flagship. The Buick STS would provide LGR production volume and could sell as a Park Avenue replacement in China. Cadillac could still keep the STS and refresh it/upgrade it positioning it higher than the CTS and Buick-version (making it a true E-Class/5-Series luxury competitor or SWB S-Class/7-Series fighter) without abandoning the midsize/large premium market. When conditions improve, Cadillac could stretch higher and come out with models to compete against the baby RR & Bentley cars that will survive the recession.

All of this allows Cadillac to move into the luxury/ultra-luxury market while keeping another brand as a solid step-up above Chevrolet. Very little price or market overlap. The gap is bridged. Three international line-ups.

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and Hummer is a dirty word.

)

I got into some interesting discussions discussing the GM, etc. bridge loans. Two GM brands came out time and again.

HUMMER - This brand is the opposite of a halo car. I was surprised how much hatred it carries with it. I calmed the waters by posting a picture of a post delivery vehicle and explaining that AM General not GM made the H1.

BUICK - A number of posters commented what great gas mileage they got in their Buicks.

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Buick could also sell a premium delta-based Volt sibling.

VenSeattle: You forgot to mention its name: Electra :breakdance:

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>>"Umm... The {Cadillac} SALES both in american and especially outside of america in relation to the competition."<<

Does Cadillac compete w/ audi?

Jan-Jun '08 Audi : 45,711

Jan-Jun '08 Cadi : 88,709

But here we are in smk-land {shudder}: basing "success" on sales numbers. Success in business is generally determined by profit, not volume per say. How in the world does ferrari manage to crank out so many different models with no sales volume ??? Easy- they're grotesquely overpriced for what you get = profit.

I think Audi will hit 1 million sales, annually this year, worldwide.

I don't believe Caddy will hit 300k, worldwide.

Audi is fleshing out a full line-up---Caddy has been trending downward for decades, no?

Caddy is great--but the prime victim in the unavoidable starvation of great brands in the GM universe.

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Decades ago Cadillac only had sedans & coupes, now they also have a roadster, a full-size SUV line, a crossover, and 'small' sedan and true high-performance variants. A new coupe & 'sport wagon' are on the way. Looks like trending upward to me.

Since Cadillac's expasion worldwide has been recent & limited, and the marque primarily sells in the U.S., seems a U.S. comparison of numbers vs. audi is legitimate, since FOG brought the American market up.

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Decades ago Cadillac only had sedans & coupes, now they also have a roadster, a full-size SUV line, a crossover, and 'small' sedan and true high-performance variants. A new coupe & 'sport wagon' are on the way. Looks like trending upward to me.

Since Cadillac's expasion worldwide has been recent & limited, and the marque primarily sells in the U.S., seems a U.S. comparison of numbers vs. audi is legitimate, since FOG brought the American market up.

Cadillac's proliferation has kept it relevant, but I'd hardly suggest that Caddy sells anywhere near its historical levels, either by numbers or marketshare---either here or worldwide.

A smart GM would have leveraged the Cadillac brand worldwide decades ago. That's the problem with the Audi comparo--it's not apples to apples. Audi has entered the argument of high-end product while Caddy has struggled to stay relevant. Audi is an example of VW effectively acting as a steward of the brand--I'm sure that GM has not done the same with Caddy. Put the CTS aside, and there's little to discuss, presently.

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Well, this still all comes down to the UAW getting on board.

Fine, cut 2-4 brands...given the UAW contracts, you're still going to have to produce roughly the same number of vehicles, but you'll have 1.5x the Impala's on the road, 1.5x the Silverados on the road, as they get all still get produced, just now strictly under Chevy badges instead of thier rebadged twins from the now defunct divisions.

Simply, its still cheaper to produce cars and get some value out of the workers, as opposed to have those guys paid out not to work under the current structure.

Keep in mind the US Congress will want to see a combination of cost cutting and the maintaining of jobs in any plan.

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Fine, cut 2-4 brands...given the UAW contracts, you're still going to have to produce roughly the same number of vehicles, but you'll have 1.5x the Impala's on the road, 1.5x the Silverados on the road, as they get all still get produced, just now strictly under Chevy badges instead of thier rebadged twins from the now defunct divisions.

They won't sell 1.5x Impalas. No Pontiac, I'm not buying GM. I won't recommend GM to others, either.

Just as others have mentioned, when GM killed Olds, all that volume was LOST. GM needs to inform Congress of that. They should also let Congress know that Chevy, BPG, Cadillac and Saturn would be only 4 divisions, not 6.

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- Unfortunately, Pontiac is already having trouble selling a $30k RWD V6/V8 sedan.

So if Chevy badges the G8 as a Caprice, they are going to have better luck selling a $30K RWD V6/V8 sedan?!?

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Stop all this we could put this model in this line up. We have too many models non not just divisions.

The idea is to do away with all the many models and divisions to save money.

If the model is not sold world wide it is gone.

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You know, I was thinking...

If GM uses the number of people it employs as leverage for the "bailout", wouldn't killing divisions and downsizing be counter productive?

And +1 on the "GM needs to let Congress [and the world] know that it only sells 4 divisions." Then maybe less people would be asking/forcing them to assasinate divisions.

Repeat after me: FOUR DIVISIONS (Because that's the way the restructure was supposed to be.

1) Chevrolet

2) Saturn

3) Buick/Pontiac/GMC

4) Cadillac/Saab/Hummer

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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Decades ago Cadillac only had sedans & coupes, now they also have a roadster, a full-size SUV line, a crossover, and 'small' sedan and true high-performance variants. A new coupe & 'sport wagon' are on the way. Looks like trending upward to me.

Since Cadillac's expasion worldwide has been recent & limited, and the marque primarily sells in the U.S., seems a U.S. comparison of numbers vs. audi is legitimate, since FOG brought the American market up.

The unfortunate reality is not what's currently in the product lineup, but how much those products contribute to Cadillac's overall sucess.

(Based upon my six months' experience working at a Caddy store....) there are two....only two....products that generate any sort of significant contribution to Cadillac.......the CTS, and the short-wheelbase Escalade.

STS is sale-proof. STS-V is sale proof.

SRX is sale-proof.

XLR is sale-proof. XLR-V is sale-proof.

ESV and EXT Escalades move at a fraction of the short-wheelbase model.

DTS is not quite sale-proof, but damn near it.

The new CTS-V, coupe and sportwagen will generate positive press......but hardly help to fix the problems with the rest of the product line.

A smaller, less-expensive RWD sedan could be interesting....if executed to the level the current CTS is.

Where's the new STS/DTS replacement? I don't even think it's barely on the horizon.

The new SRX is a sharp looker.....but loses it's third-row seat and is FWD-based. How will that help steal sales from the Lexus RX's of the world? (As "sale proof" as SRXs are, if you have a 5-seat model, it's even more sale proof.)

For all my bitching, we do just fine and make nice money at this store....thanks to CTS, Escalade Shorty, used-cars, and service. But Cadillac is still a far way from "trending upwards" in the grand scheme of things.

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The unfortunate reality is not what's currently in the product lineup, but how much those products contribute to Cadillac's overall sucess.

(Based upon my six months' experience working at a Caddy store....) there are two....only two....products that generate any sort of significant contribution to Cadillac.......the CTS, and the short-wheelbase Escalade.

STS is sale-proof. STS-V is sale proof.

SRX is sale-proof.

XLR is sale-proof. XLR-V is sale-proof.

ESV and EXT Escalades move at a fraction of the short-wheelbase model.

DTS is not quite sale-proof, but damn near it.

The new CTS-V, coupe and sportwagen will generate positive press......but hardly help to fix the problems with the rest of the product line.

A smaller, less-expensive RWD sedan could be interesting....if executed to the level the current CTS is.

Where's the new STS/DTS replacement? I don't even think it's barely on the horizon.

The new SRX is a sharp looker.....but loses it's third-row seat and is FWD-based. How will that help steal sales from the Lexus RX's of the world? (As "sale proof" as SRXs are, if you have a 5-seat model, it's even more sale proof.)

For all my bitching, we do just fine and make nice money at this store....thanks to CTS, Escalade Shorty, used-cars, and service. But Cadillac is still a far way from "trending upwards" in the grand scheme of things.

We did have STS and DTS replacements until the powers that be thought it was a good idea to kill Zeta.

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The new SRX is a sharp looker.....but loses it's third-row seat and is FWD-based. How will that help steal sales from the Lexus RX's of the world? (As "sale proof" as SRXs are, if you have a 5-seat model, it's even more sale proof.)

I see an awful lot of Lincoln MkX's on the road... they're 5-seaters only, right? And they come in FWD standard, with AWD optional, right? And correct me if i'm wrong, I thought I read that the new SRX will be AWD standard???

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Where's the new STS/DTS replacement? I don't even think it's barely on the horizon.

A fellow on GMI named Docray1, who is knowledgeable about Cadillac, says that GM is actually studying an Epsilon II replacement for the DTS.

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All of this speculation here in this thread adds up to a grand total of nothing good.

Should GM choose this path forward, my interest in the company will come to a screeching halt.

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I would be prepared for an announcement soon of more employee layoffs and plant closings, most likely before GM goes before Congress next week.

+1

Chris

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We did have STS and DTS replacements until the powers that be thought it was a good idea to kill Zeta.

This is what scares me. All of the import brands are working on development and refreshes, and GM, Ford, and Chrysler are kinda treading water.

Until we can be profitable enough to do R and D and catch up, all we are doing is treading water and putting off the inevitable.

Sadly, my family on my mohters side loved Hudson in the 50's and on my fathers side loved Studebaker in the 50's. I think that 50 years later we may well deal with the death of other car lines we love..

Chris

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All of this speculation here in this thread adds up to a grand total of nothing good.

Should GM choose this path forward, my interest in the company will come to a screeching halt.

Mine too...but I agree, nothing good is going to come of this. Our C and G April fools thread about GM closing North American operations seemed like a farfetched fantasy to me when we posted it back in April. A lot has changed in seven months.

Chris

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I see an awful lot of Lincoln MkX's on the road... they're 5-seaters only, right? And they come in FWD standard, with AWD optional, right? And correct me if i'm wrong, I thought I read that the new SRX will be AWD standard???

Well maybe that works for Lincoln.....but I know that here, what we sell in SRX (primarily Certified pre-owned) we sell as RWD SRX models.....as people don't want to pay the extra for AWD if they don't have to (don't live in a snowy climate, etc.) In fact, we don't even stock new SRXs with AWD.....

Also, of those people that have inquired, they LIKE the fact that the SRX is RWD instead of FWD....I've heard that mentioned various times.

Just my observations, that's all.....

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Perhaps they could sell Saturn to the French... with an established dealer and customer base, it's a good outlet for them in the US.

And their products are similarly small, utilitarian, economical, and funky... Saturn C4 Picasso anyone?

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A fellow on GMI named Docray1, who is knowledgeable about Cadillac, says that GM is actually studying an Epsilon II replacement for the DTS.

good lord... i hope he's an armachair coach and not truly knowledgeable...

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All of this speculation here in this thread adds up to a grand total of nothing good.

Should GM choose this path forward, my interest in the company will come to a screeching halt.

They can and will do what they can to save GM. IF they have to kill off my fav division so be it. As of now I am a GM fan first and a division fan second.

My fear is if GM should fail all together or get taken over my next car may have to be of a brand I never wanted to buy.

I can live with a Chevy much better than a Honda.

Edited by hyperv6

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They can and will do what they can to save GM. IF they have to kill off my fav division so be it. As of now I am a GM fan first and a division fan second.

My fear is if GM should fail all together or get taken over my next car may have to be of a brand I never wanted to buy.

I can live with a Chevy much better than a Honda.

Very simply that's not a good enough answer.

Killing brands doesn't exactly have a good track record of positive results.

I believe that, far from saving GM, it will hasten the complete failure of the company.

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Very simply that's not a good enough answer.

Killing brands doesn't exactly have a good track record of positive results.

I believe that, far from saving GM, it will hasten the complete failure of the company.

I would like to have 10 cars in my garage too but with what money I have coming in I can only afford 3 solid cars.

I could sell them off and buy 10 junk cars for the driveway with no money to fix them.

GM is going to have the funds to fix 2-3 divisions and unless Pontiac sales are up in China I would not hold my breath.

Killing brands has not worked because they never fixed the surviving brands.

Chevy is the work horse here and they need to make Chevy the best they can be. The money and good products going into other divisions is not going to save GM. Pontiac is not going to save GM.

Chevy needs to evolve like Hyundia has and retake the market.

The less divisions also would get everyone on one page working in one direction. In the past the division fighting has done more damage than Toyota has.

GM is going to get one chace to get this right.

The money rebading Chevys as Pontiacs could go to makeing better Chevys.

GM is wokring to make Caddy world class.

Well why are they not wokring to make Chevy world class in it price group? Not as good as Honda or Toyota but better. Right now who ever give people the most good car for the money is going to win, and right now Hyundia has a lot of people worried.

If you wanted to save Pontiac it should have been started 10 years ago. Or convice the people in China it is better than a Buick.

To show how bad off Pontiac is here in one of it's strongest markets I saw in the paper a $30,000 G8 advertised at $24,000 and I am sure you talk them lower them lower on the last day of the month. Sad but even one of the best cars Pontiac has ever offered is not selling at fire sales prices.

Edited by hyperv6

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That GM is late in getting this worked out there can be no denying but, I have yet to see ANY proof that there is any benefit to killing brands.

I think all talk of the number of brands as pivotal to GM's survival, is WAY over-emphasized. It would make far more sense to talk about models and brand focus instead. You yourself have nailed this issue with the comment that what GM has failed to do is to fix (focus) the brands.

A far lower number of models, and a near-prohibition of badge jobs would be a far more effective way to cut costs, raise profit, and improve sales than the surrender strategy and PR nightmare killing brands would be. GM need not kill brands to regain viability and become lean - that is a tired old saw.

EDIT: Additionally, this course of action is only being considered to "please" the Congress who have been conditioned by analysts and the press to believe that it is true. That is not a basis for a sound business decision in my view.

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I'm not so sure killing Brands are a good idea..

Killing models, on the other hand, might help....

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I really don't think killing ANY BRANDS except for Hummer, Saturn and Saab is a good idea. Pontiac has way to much heritage and way to many dealers in BPG or Chev, Pont, Buick that I see alot of. Olds market share was lost the sales went to Acura and Lexus not Pontiac and Buick like GM thought. There is no way that GM would ever want to dream of killing off Pontiac, that would be plain stupid, that brand has a history and a pulse that Saturn can't match. Pontiac has adapted through good times and bad and they will again. When you get down to the core GM Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac and GMC that is all you need and should have left if you must cut. I would refocus GMC on only building luxury/medium duty trucks and take the Kodiak away from Chevrolet and just give it too GMC. Trust me loyal Pontiac owners won't go to Buick or Chevrolet, they will go to Dodge of Nissan just watch. If Pontiac is gets killed I might end up buying my first HONDA.

Edited by gm4life

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A fellow on GMI named Docray1, who is knowledgeable about Cadillac, says that GM is actually studying an Epsilon II replacement for the DTS.

Despite me being a fan of Epsilons, this is as sensible as bringing MDM's designs to production.

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I would like to have 10 cars in my garage too but with what money I have coming in I can only afford 3 solid cars.

I could sell them off and buy 10 junk cars for the driveway with no money to fix them.

GM is going to have the funds to fix 2-3 divisions and unless Pontiac sales are up in China I would not hold my breath.

Killing brands has not worked because they never fixed the surviving brands.

To show how bad off Pontiac is here in one of it's strongest markets I saw in the paper a $30,000 G8 advertised at $24,000 and I am sure you talk them lower them lower on the last day of the month. Sad but even one of the best cars Pontiac has ever offered is not selling at fire sales prices.

Amen

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