Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

Rivian, Lucid, and Fisker I think have a shot at making it.    And while Fisker is the shakiest of the bunch, they're the one that targets the biggest market segment outside of Full-Size pickups.  They're preparing a CR-V sized EV that is supposed to start at $37k with a starting range of 250 miles.  They've also been tapped to make the next EV Pope-mobile... so if they have that blessing, they should do okay.  

None of these, however, will take down Tesla.  Tesla has developed a rabid base of fanbois that even Apple wishes it could cultivate.

Agree, maybe those 3 make it but small boutique style car companies struggle, even JLR and Volvo needed sold to bigger companies.  So I see it unlikely that Lucid or Fisker with 1-2 cars will be able to stand alone.  I think those companies exist with the hope of being bought out like most tech companies, but I don’t think other car companies are looking to buy them out.

[David]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

Apparently... not from this quarter : 

Integrity is everything and clearly Nikola CEO thought he could pull the wool over everyone. Glad they got caught before GM went too far down the rabbit hole with them.

I do still love the looks of Nikola pickup truck.

This is far superior looking than Tesla CyberTruck.

Out of the 4, 3 that for sure will make it to market are all far superior than Tesla Vaporware Truck.

[smk4565]

We don't know those other trucks will be better than the Cybertruck.  I don't see GM, Ford or Rivian making a better EV car/SUV than Tesla, and really Porsche hasn't either for that matter either.  Tesla knows EV's, I don't think it is so safe to assume that Ford or GM come out with what is basically their 2nd EV effort (after Bolt and Mustang Mach-E) and beat Tesla.   Also all those other EV pickups will look the same, the Tesla will stand out, and it will be like how the Wrangler sells well because it is different and there are 10 similar mid-size SUVs out there that all look basically the same.

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

We don't know those other trucks will be better than the Cybertruck.

We already DO know that all trucks mentioned will be a better product than a Cybertruck.

Elon Musk billed the Cybertruck as a re-invention of the pick-up truck. And as he was showing the Cybertruck, its very obvious that the Cyrbertruck is NOT a re-invention of the conventional pick-up truck.  Its a TOY.  Ill get back to THAT later.

The other trucks Rivian and Ford 150EV, minus the GMC Hummer EV, all showed us what and how EV pick-up trucks SHOULD be.   In the regard of the Cybertruck being a traditional pick-up truck, it FAILED.  If anything, FORD has re-invented the EV pick-up truck!  THAT makes it a better EV pick-up truck.

I said the Cybertruck is more of a toy.

Well...had GMC NOT given us a HUMMER EV, Id be inclined to say...yeah!  Tesla has given us a fan-TA-stic EV truck as its a unique offering, its EV and its a toy. THIS is what toys are all about!

HOWEVER...GMC has given us the HUMMER EV...

The HUMMER EV is a more shocking offering.  Faster, bigger. MORE arrogant!   Freedom mode. Crawl mode. Its INSANE!  Therefore, even as a toy, the Cybertruck falls short...   Its in 2nd place. 

There are more fans of the HUMMER brand than there are rabid Tesla fanbois.    

HUMMER has ALL the folk that bought Hummers 20 years ago.   HUMMER has even got the green people on board as it IS an electric vehicle...     

HUMMER might NOT have the Tesla cult followers. But that is OK.  HUMMER has got the folk that look at the Cybertruck and laugh at it!  

HUMMER has even got the folk that swear that they will NEVER part with their DIESEL HD pick-up trucks, but JUST the way the HUMMER looks and with FREEDOM mode "AMERICA PHOQUE YEAH!!!, HUMMER has WON these guys over...

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

 I don't see GM, Ford or Rivian making a better EV car/SUV than Tesla, and really Porsche hasn't either for that matter either.

Tesla has got excellent EV powertrains and batteries.  

GM with the HUMMER EV has shown that GM is equal to Tesla.

Ford with the Mach E has ALSO shown that Ford is equal to Tesla.   

More products to come from both GM and Ford...

Porsche and Audi have fallen short. Really really short with their offerings that are rivals to Tesla's Model S.  But Porsche is not a company that likes losing. As seen with the 911 and what Porsche engineering is all about the last 20-30 years, I wouldnt be counting out Porsche so soon if I were you...

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla knows EV's, I don't think it is so safe to assume that Ford or GM come out with what is basically their 2nd EV effort (after Bolt and Mustang Mach-E) and beat Tesla.

GM has been in the EV game since the mid-1990s...      NOT their first merry-go round with EVs. 

The Bolt 1st generation was an excellent effort. A REAL attempt for an AFFORDABLE EV for the masses.  The Bolt is simply NOT the same type of EV as the Model S or Model 3.   The Bolt is the equivalent of an entry level, compact car. Both Model 3 and Model S are more like sports sedans.    Enthusiast vehicles rather than utilitarian. Teslas in general are more geared for enthusiast purposes rather than utilitarian. Apples to oranges. 

EV nerds buy Teslas but most of these nerds are more akin to being boring Toyota and Lexus clientele rather than ultimate driving machine adrenaline junkies...   The fact that Tesla EVs gives them a rush is mind boggling to me as these idiots also advocate for self-driving cars...   

 The Mach E was ALSO an excellent 1st effort.   It resides in the same realm of Tesla as the Mach E is more of an enthusiast offering.  Smack right in between the Model Y and the Model X.    And by Ford showing us how the F150 EV will be spec wise, Tesla's advantage of having excellent EV powertrains and batteries is now not so much of a big gap anymore...  

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Also all those other EV pickups will look the same, the Tesla will stand out,

NOT in a good way...

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

and it will be like how the Wrangler sells well because

Wrangler sells well because its got a history that dates back to 1939... and it won a war.  It won SEVERAL wars...

And MANY folk LOVED that about it.  And then the marketing  machine really kicked in and did its thing and the Wrangler has got a cult following like no other.

There are 2 other 4x4s that RIVAL the Wrangler.  HUMMER and Bronco. 

Hummer is an EV while the Bronco is not. Dont matter...Ford has another 4x4 that has a cult following...    Its F150...and it WILL be an EV...

To say that Ford and GM couldnt compete with Tesla is just...naive. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

27 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

We already DO know that all trucks mentioned will be a better product than a Cybertruck.

Elon Musk billed the Cybertruck as a re-invention of the pick-up truck. And as he was showing the Cybertruck, its very obvious that the Cyrbertruck is NOT a re-invention of the conventional pick-up truck.  Its a TOY.  Ill get back to THAT later.

The other trucks Rivian and Ford 150EV, minus the GMC Hummer EV, all showed us what and how EV pick-up trucks SHOULD be.   In the regard of the Cybertruck being a traditional pick-up truck, it FAILED.  If anything, FORD has re-invented the EV pick-up truck!  THAT makes it a better EV pick-up truck

 

HOWEVER...GMC has given us the HUMMER EV...

The HUMMER EV is a more shocking offering.  Faster, bigger. MORE arrogant!   Freedom mode. Crawl mode. Its INSANE!  Therefore, even as a toy, the Cybertruck falls short...   Its in 2nd place. 

There are more fans of the HUMMER brand than there are rabid Tesla fanbois.    

 

Porsche and Audi have fallen short. Really really short with their offerings that are rivals to Tesla's Model S.  But Porsche is not a company that likes losing. As seen with the 911 and what Porsche engineering is all about the last 20-30 years, I wouldnt be counting out Porsche so soon if I were you...

 

To say that Ford and GM couldnt compete with Tesla is just...naive. 

Let's unpack these statements.

The Cybertruck has a bigger bed than the F150 EV, and has more payload and tows more.  So I don't know how it is just a toy, when it has more capability than the F150.  And the Wrangler could be considered a toy, the Hummer is too, and people buy Wranglers and pay stupid money for them ($70k for a 4Xe?).  A toy can sell and be profitable, but in this case the Cybertruck is more capable, has better ground clearance and off road capability than a Raptor also, which the base F150 Electric can't beat a Raptor off road.  

Hummer EV isn't faster than a Cybertruck, Cyber truck has a 2.9 0-60 time, in real world it will beat a C8 Corvette because no one gets the Corvette to hook up right.  The Watts to Freedom mode is supposed to be 3.0 but I have also seen 3.5 second estimates, which seems more accurate because the Hummer EV is too heavy.

If Hummer had more fans than Tesla, the Hummer brand wouldn't have been killed off 12 years ago.  

 

As far as Porsche and Audi go, I think the Taycan and e-Tron have good performance, but not as good as Tesla, they don't have Tesla's range either.  So came up short on both regards there.  The Porsche/Audi have nicer interiors, but also like no space in them, so I don't know what is going on there, an EV should be spacious, not cramped, the Model S is roomier and more practical, so maybe call interior a tie.  

But also think of that, Audi and Porsche, who Ford/GM can't dream of competing with on their best day, are struggling to beat Tesla.  I don't see how Ford/GM so easily do it. Tesla also made $ 1 Billion profit last quarter, GM lost $800 million.  Now one bad quarter is meaningless to GM, but Tesla is making money now, they might actually be able to fund expansion.  They are still on the rise and growing fast.  No other car company is really growing, the rest are all just maintaining.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

The Cybertruck has a bigger bed than the F150 EV,

Not useable

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

the F150 EV, and has more payload and tows more.

F150 EV will have MORE trims

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 So I don't know how it is just a toy

Not useable.

The bed is an awkward thing...

If you cant see that, I cant help you

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

when it has more capability than the F150

It does NOT have more capability. 

 

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And the Wrangler could be considered a toy,

YOU mentioned the Wrangler.   And YES...its a toy!

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

the Hummer is too

Yes...I said its a toy...   I said its a BETTER, faster, bigger, MORE INSANE toy than the Cybertruck...

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

and people buy Wranglers and pay stupid money for them ($70k for a 4Xe?)

Sure...its got a CULT following.

Hummer EV will have an INSANE MSRP.    More expensive than the Cybertruck.  Must be better because bigger price tag?   THAT is usually YOUR go to argument...

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

but in this case the Cybertruck is more capable,

NOT more capable.

Its a toy. 

A toy that will sell (if it ever get to go on sale) ONLY to rabid Tesla fanbois.  That will last 1 year, 2 years tops. 

The rest of the EV pick-up truck market will go to the F150 EV, Rivian, GM twins...

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

has better ground clearance and off road capability than a Raptor also

No it doesnt.   Cybertruck is VAPORWARE.  

NO Cybertruck has EVER been offroading.   Just cult words from cult master Musk.

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

in real world it will beat a C8 Corvette because no one gets the Corvette to hook up right.

You are a liar about the C8 that nobody could make it hook up right.   All kinds of mis-information there with just 17 words...  

And again...that would be the BASE C8...with ONLY 495 HP and 490 ft/lbs of torque...

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Watts to Freedom mode is supposed to be 3.0 but I have also seen 3.5 second estimates, which seems more accurate because the Hummer EV is too heavy.

And yet...its but a fraction off... the Cybertruck's times...

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But also think of that, Audi and Porsche, who Ford/GM can't dream of competing with on their best day, are struggling to beat Tesla

GM beats Audi in a heart beat in ANY category...   YOU are just a self hatin' American.    I cant help you with that delusion. Sorry.

The Corvette has always competed well against the 911.  Its a back and forth battle since 1963.  If you cant see that. Ill repeat:  YOU are just a self hatin' American.    I cant help you with that delusion. Sorry.

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

As far as Porsche and Audi go, I think the Taycan and e-Tron have good performance, but not as good as Tesla, they don't have Tesla's range either.  So came up short on both regards there.  The Porsche/Audi have nicer interiors, but also like no space in them, so I don't know what is going on there, an EV should be spacious, not cramped, the Model S is roomier and more practical, so maybe call interior a tie.  

 Whatever excuse you are going to use to against my Corvette/911 argument...you can use it on yourself here...

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla also made $ 1 Billion profit last quarter,

Its about time, doncha think?  

But as with GM losing 800 million, lets see how the year ends.  Im will to bet that GM makes 2 billion and Tesla is back losing money again...

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But also think of that, Audi and Porsche, who Ford/GM can't dream of competing with on their best day

Stop being such a self hating American...

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Not useable

F150 EV will have MORE trims

Not useable.

The bed is an awkward thing...

If you cant see that, I cant help you

It does NOT have more capability. 

 

YOU mentioned the Wrangler.   And YES...its a toy!

Yes...I said its a toy...   I said its a BETTER, faster, bigger, MORE INSANE toy than the Cybertruck...

Sure...its got a CULT following.

Hummer EV will have an INSANE MSRP.    More expensive than the Cybertruck.  Must be better because bigger price tag?   THAT is usually YOUR go to argument...

NOT more capable.

Its a toy. 

A toy that will sell (if it ever get to go on sale) ONLY to rabid Tesla fanbois.  That will last 1 year, 2 years tops. 

The rest of the EV pick-up truck market will go to the F150 EV, Rivian, GM twins...

No it doesnt.   Cybertruck is VAPORWARE.  

NO Cybertruck has EVER been offroading.   Just cult words from cult master Musk.

You are a liar about the C8 that nobody could make it hook up right.   All kinds of mis-information there with just 17 words...  

And again...that would be the BASE C8...with ONLY 495 HP and 490 ft/lbs of torque...

And yet...its but a fraction off... the Cybertruck's times...

GM beats Audi in a heart beat in ANY category...   YOU are just a self hatin' American.    I cant help you with that delusion. Sorry.

The Corvette has always competed well against the 911.  Its a back and forth battle since 1963.  If you cant see that. Ill repeat:  YOU are just a self hatin' American.    I cant help you with that delusion. Sorry.

 Whatever excuse you are going to use to against my Corvette/911 argument...you can use it on yourself here...

Its about time, doncha think?  

But as with GM losing 800 million, lets see how the year ends.  Im will to bet that GM makes 2 billion and Tesla is back losing money again...

Stop being such a self hating American...

 

I just said a lot of good things about Tesla, you know, an AMERICAN car company that builds cars in AMERICA.  

As for more capability, as I said, higher payload, higher tow rating, larger bed, higher ground clearance, better approach and break over angles.  As in, MORE of all those things.

GM beats Audi?  Look at Cadillac, and then look at Audi.  One brand is successful worldwide, the other is a a 6th or 7th place contender in 2 markets.

Corvette vs 911, the 911 has a far better interior, more features, more customization, and is faster on a track.  But the 911 is also a $100-300k price range car, the Corvette is a $60-125k range sort of car, the Corvette is more of a 718 competitor.  The 911 is better than the Corvette but it is also like double the money. Corvette wins on value for dollar, 911 wins if you don't care about money.

See, I don't care where a car comes from, I judge the product.  Also the Jeep fans, those profits go to the Stellantis mothership in France.  And future Jeeps will have Peugeot powertrains, and yet there will be will be people out there that will say "I'll never buy a French car, I buy American!", then go turn around and buy a Jeep with a French powertrain, who's profits go to France.  American vs Import is not so simple, like 75% of Buicks are made in Asia, yet most Toyotas sold in the USA are made in the USA.   That is why I look at the product and company reputation.

[balthazar]

^ You are conflating assembly point with company home country.

- - - - -
The infinitesimal differences in maximum rated towing or payload do not drive sales by themselves, as the major players are commonly within a few percentage points of each other. This has been patiently explained here numerous times; the 'top number' in a given criteria doesn't drive sales by itself. Ram TD has 1,075 TRQ whereas GMC/ Chevy has 910, but the Ram doesn't handily outsell its competition, thusly disproving your 'model'.

Because that's exactly it- (and with trucks especially); they need to be competitive. And they are, and then truck consumers pick the BEST BALANCE of features and capabilities and personal preferences and PRICE and buy 'X'.

The Tesla pickup tries to pass off uncompetitiveness in product with "re-invention", and it's just laughable. And what little actually tangible things it does offer (the front trunk, no fuel costs... I can't think of anything else) are going to be offered by a host of competitors by the time it ever gets out. Couple that with the LACK of certain features and it has an immense uphill battle for marketshare.

When you ignore the vast data set of the 'Phoenix Rising' of pickups over the last 50 years and instead take a hard left turn and try to pitch it as 'This is what you really want', it just comes off as ill-prepared and unresponsive.

[smk4565]

49 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ You are conflating assembly point with company home country.

- - - - -
The infinitesimal differences in maximum rated towing or payload do not drive sales by themselves, as the major players are commonly within a few percentage points of each other. This has been patiently explained here numerous times; the 'top number' in a given criteria doesn't drive sales by itself. Ram TD has 1,075 TRQ whereas GMC/ Chevy has 910, but the Ram doesn't handily outsell its competition, thusly disproving your 'model'.

Because that's exactly it- (and with trucks especially); they need to be competitive. And they are, and then truck consumers pick the BEST BALANCE of features and capabilities and personal preferences and PRICE and buy 'X'.

The Tesla pickup tries to pass off uncompetitiveness in product with "re-invention", and it's just laughable. And what little actually tangible things it does offer (the front trunk, no fuel costs... I can't think of anything else) are going to be offered by a host of competitors by the time it ever gets out. Couple that with the LACK of certain features and it has an immense uphill battle for marketshare.

When you ignore the vast data set of the 'Phoenix Rising' of pickups over the last 50 years and instead take a hard left turn and try to pitch it as 'This is what you really want', it just comes off as ill-prepared and unresponsive.

I get that leading in one or two metrics is meaningless, it is like those commercials that say car A has more standard horsepower than car B, meanwhile car B gets better fuel economy and has 2 option engines that car A doesn’t mention in their commercial.

But the Cybertruck has a lot of good metrics, attractive price, and unique styling plus the Tesla brand name.  I think it will sell just fine, I’d be shocked if it wasn’t 100k units a year and I think they could do 200k.  
 

I am not saying the Cybertruck will outsell the F150, but it will take a little market share from existing trucks.

[balthazar]

It may take some marketshare. It's likely to grabs a bunch of the 'look at me' vanity sales... maybe Leonardo DiCaprio will drive one to an awards show no one watches. But I doubt it'll break 100K in year 2- it just doesn't address truck buyer's needs & wants.

Don't forget- that claimed $39K starting price doesn't go as fast nor tow as much, and Tesla raises prices just about MONTHLY... so a number announced going on 2 years ago now is likely going to be a good $5K more. And they're all going to be the same color.

Also, the Tesla brand name doesn't carry any weight with the truck demographic. By nearly every metric, it has a steep uphill climb.

[surreal1272]

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

Also, the Tesla brand name doesn't carry any weight with the truck demographic.

What he has been told since day one when Tesla announced the wedge on wheels.

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I get that leading in one or two metrics is meaningless

Yet that hasn't stopped you from constantly pointing out 0-60 times whenever it suits you.

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

See, I don't care where a car comes from, I judge the product.

Ummm, are you sure about that Mercedes fan?

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Corvette vs 911, the 911 has a far better interior, more features, more customization, and is faster on a track.  But the 911 is also a $100-300k price range car, the Corvette is a $60-125k range sort of car, the Corvette is more of a 718 competitor.

Must be why auto publications constantly compare the Vette against the 911, like type does for half a century. BTW, this particular Vette was faster to 0-60 than the 911.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2020-chevrolet-corvette-c8-vs-2020-porsche-911-comparison-test-review/

 

Make sure you pay attention to this part about the interiors of the two since you are so certain that the 911 is superior.

 

"It's just one of the ways in which the Corvette's cabin is nicer than the 911's, a sentence we feared we'd never get to write. The Corvette's notoriously cheap materials, gaping panel gaps, and persistent smell of glue have all been banished—and this was in an early-build car, no less.

The previous Corvette generation showed us Chevrolet could afford to give the car both performance and a nice interior, but the C8 has skipped straight past nice and into proper supercar territory. The leather is the best we've seen and felt in a Corvette by a wide margin, there's no cheap-looking hard plastic anywhere (well … the cupholders are a bit of a wince), and the seats (midgrade GT2s, in this case) strike a balance between comfort and lateral support that even some supercar builders don't get right.

Granted, our Corvette was a top-shelf 3LT trim level with the best interior you can yet buy for the car, but you can do that when the as-tested price is a Silverado less than the 911—which had zero interior dress-up options, at that. Sure, Porsche will wrap the air vent blades in leather if you put enough zeroes on the check, but out of the box, it's a stark field of dark grays and blacks all finished in varying grades of plastic and piano black. Our Carrera didn't even have power seats"

 

 

So yes, you can have a nicer interior in the 911, if you want to pay thousands for each little bit that makes it that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

56 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Must be why auto publications constantly compare the Vette against the 911, like they’ve done for half a century

Corrected in bold. 

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Must be why auto publications constantly compare the Vette against the 911, like type does for half a century. BTW, this particular Vette was faster to 0-60 than the 911.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2020-chevrolet-corvette-c8-vs-2020-porsche-911-comparison-test-review/

 

Make sure you pay attention to this part about the interiors of the two since you are so certain that the 911 is superior.

 

"It's just one of the ways in which the Corvette's cabin is nicer than the 911's, a sentence we feared we'd never get to write. The Corvette's notoriously cheap materials, gaping panel gaps, and persistent smell of glue have all been banished—and this was in an early-build car, no less.

The previous Corvette generation showed us Chevrolet could afford to give the car both performance and a nice interior, but the C8 has skipped straight past nice and into proper supercar territory. The leather is the best we've seen and felt in a Corvette by a wide margin, there's no cheap-looking hard plastic anywhere (well … the cupholders are a bit of a wince), and the seats (midgrade GT2s, in this case) strike a balance between comfort and lateral support that even some supercar builders don't get right.

Granted, our Corvette was a top-shelf 3LT trim level with the best interior you can yet buy for the car, but you can do that when the as-tested price is a Silverado less than the 911—which had zero interior dress-up options, at that. Sure, Porsche will wrap the air vent blades in leather if you put enough zeroes on the check, but out of the box, it's a stark field of dark grays and blacks all finished in varying grades of plastic and piano black. Our Carrera didn't even have power seats"

 

 

So yes, you can have a nicer interior in the 911, if you want to pay thousands for each little bit that makes it that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is basically what I said, the 911 is better but you pay more for it.  Dress up a 911 Turbo S for $225,000 and it is faster and more luxurious than any Corvette.  Plus it is Porsche dealership experience vs Chevrolet dealer experience.

For even money at $99k when you can get a loaded Corvette vs a bare bones 911, the Corvette is the better buy all day long.

But people shopping 911’s or Ferraris are shopping price they want the best car, most exotic, most wow factor, doesn’t matter what it costs.  This is why I have long said GM needs a car above the Corvette, make a Cadillac sports car that starts at $200k and can be built up to $400k.  Make an electric super car out of carbon fiber or something that has wow factor.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Corrected in bold. 

Car magazines compare them, buyers don’t.  Rich guys living in $2 million dollar houses that own 7 cars aren’t going to Chevy dealers to get great performance per dollar.  They are buying the Turbo S or GT3.  In fact there is a guy who works in the same office building where my company has an office that bought both, he has a 911 Turbo AWD for winter and also has a GT3, so that’s like $400k spent on Porsches and I heard he has a Lamborghini also.  People like that aren’t comparing a Corvette.  
 

And Chevy is right to price the Corvette against the Nissan GTR, Supra, 718 Cayman|Boxster, Shelby Mustang, etc.  the Corvette is better than all those cars.  But exotic cars are a different game.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Car magazines compare them, buyers don’t.  Rich guys living in $2 million dollar houses that own 7 cars aren’t going to Chevy dealers to get great performance per dollar.  They are buying the Turbo S or GT3.  In fact there is a guy who works in the same office building where my company has an office that bought both, he has a 911 Turbo AWD for winter and also has a GT3, so that’s like $400k spent on Porsches and I heard he has a Lamborghini also.  People like that aren’t comparing a Corvette.  
 

And Chevy is right to price the Corvette against the Nissan GTR, Supra, 718 Cayman|Boxster, Shelby Mustang, etc.  the Corvette is better than all those cars.  But exotic cars are a different game.

You clearly did not read the whole article. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

That is basically what I said,

No. You said the Vette shouldn’t be compared to the 911 when that is the Porsche it has ALWAYS been compared to. It should be noted that the Vette was called more luxurious than the $40K higher price 911. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Car magazines compare them, buyers don’t.

Maybe you don’t but most buyers certainly do compare them. That is just a dumb assumption on your part. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

I think the Corvette is the best sports car under $100k, and they are a great deal on the used car market too.

Personally, I wouldn’t buy a Chevy.  My first car was a Chevy, then I had the Oldsmobile Aurora, so any GM car except a Cadillac I feel like would be a step down.  And after a Mercedes for 8 years, I feel like a Cadillac is even a down grade.  
 

If the Corvette had a Cadillac badge with a Cadillac interior then it would be something for me to consider and I’d probably take it over a Porsche.  But I wouldn’t buy a Chevy. 
 

And when I said I judge a product, brand image is part of that. 

[surreal1272]

52 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And when I said I judge a product, brand image is part of that. 

And that is where you fail. Porsche should be ashamed that a $90k Vette has a better interior and comparable performance than their base $129K 911. What does that say about Porsches “image”. The image I’m getting is one that’s overpriced. 

[balthazar]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Rich guys living in $2 million dollar houses that own 7 cars aren’t going to Chevy dealers to get great performance per dollar.

Then why does the Porsche 718 exist????

 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And after a Mercedes for 8 years, I feel like a Cadillac is even a down grade.

Nope, it's definitely an upgrade :
 

[smk4565]

41 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And that is where you fail. Porsche should be ashamed that a $90k Vette has a better interior and comparable performance than their base $129K 911. What does that say about Porsches “image”. The image I’m getting is one that’s overpriced. 

It isn't over priced if people pay it, and pay more than that for a 911.  If GM could charge 911 prices and pocket an extra $50k profit per car they would do it.  Porsche brand name lets you charge more money than Chevrolet brand name.

And since this is a Tesla thread, I will go back and say the Tesla brand name is really strong.  Tesla will be a formidable opponent to other car companies, especially the mainstream ones, more so than a Mercedes or Porsche that already have brand image and customers used to paying high prices.  But when Chevy, Ford, Toyota have to start selling Escape and Rav4 size crossovers at $50k because EV's cost more, that is going to be sticker shock for the people that walk into a Ford or Toyota dealer, where as people will easily hand over $50k for a Tesla SUV that is the size of a RAV4.  The Model 3 is basically sized and  equipped like a Corolla or Focus, and people will pay $40-60k for one because it's a Tesla.   

And Tesla has a story behind them, the charging network, etc.  Lot of reasons they will be hard to beat.  

[smk4565]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Then why does the Porsche 718 exist????

 

Nope, it's definitely an upgrade :
 

718 exists so Porsche can sell more cars, and some people like a smaller, lighter, more tack friendly and tossable car.  The 718 is only 3,021 lbs.  Obviously the 911 is their flagship car, but the people shopping for Cayenne's aren't comparing that to Chevy Blazer.  Porsche is after a different clientele than Chevrolet.  

I don't drive a C300, I have an E550, but when I sit in Cadillac's the only interior I'd say is on par with my car is an Escalade.  The Cadillac sedans have bad interiors, the CT6 had a bad interior, I see cheap plastic GM switchgear all over the place, it is like sitting in a Chevy.  Also a 2021 CT5-V is about as fast as my car from 2008 (in fact they have identical 0-60 times), and I am sure the V8 in my car sounds better than GM's V6.  
 

In my current situation with having a company car, I have put 2100 miles on my car in the past 8 months, so it doesn't make financial sense to buy any car when it won't get driven.  My next car will either be the current SL550 as it's the last of the hard top convertibles, the next gen SL once it is used and affordable, or EQE if that looks good and I decide to go electric.  But the convertibles are dying, might as well get one now while they still last, and in 10 years it will still have value since car companies aren't making them hardly anymore.

[balthazar]

^ That doesn't jive with your earlier statement that 'guys with 7 cars aren't buying "great performance for their dollar".
718 starts right where the Corvette does; at $60K. Wh-who's buying that when there's a 'much betterer' 911 out there?

One of these is good and the other is "bad", eh? : 
 

[smk4565]

50 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ That doesn't jive with your earlier statement that 'guys with 7 cars aren't buying "great performance for their dollar".
718 starts right where the Corvette does; at $60K. Wh-who's buying that when there's a 'much betterer' 911 out there?

One of these is good and the other is "bad", eh? : 
 

People that can't afford 911's are buying 718's.  And maybe some people that want a 718 GT4 that is a track toy and just want a lighter car.

I've sat in the CT6, I wouldn't trade that interior for mine.  Low quality materials, after 10 years it will look worn out.  Also I have a W211 which I think had a better interior than the W212 pictured there, plus I have the V8 car it has the Nappa leather seats and door inserts, so it is nicer than the base model. 

[balthazar]

Why wouldn't people who can't afford a 911 buy a Corvette instead, tho? And aren't they??

Corvette has a better interior, hits 60 a second & a half quicker than a 718, plus it's a supercar that looks like a super car, not a 20-40 yr old design. 

Sounds like a no-brainer; Porsche is a 2nd place finisher here.

Edited August 1, 2021 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

718 exists so Porsche can sell more cars

No. That’s what their CUVs are for. Besides, the 718 sells in FEWER numbers than the 911. 
 

@smk4565- What year is your Benz?

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Why wouldn't people who can't afford a 911 buy a Corvette instead, tho? And aren't they??

Corvette has a better interior, hits 60 a second & a half quicker than a 718, plus it's a supercar that looks like a super car, not a 20-40 yr old design. 

Sounds like a no-brainer; Porsche is a 2nd place finisher here.

Because one is a Porsche and once is a Chevrolet.  That is my point.  Brand image matters.  

Not haven driven either of them, I would assume the Corvette is the better car, it has more performance, but Porsche does have the reputation for build quality and reliability as they have racked up a lot of JD Power awards.

Now if you look at this Car and Driver article from last year, the 718 Cayman GT4 beat the Corvette Z51

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a33825844/2020-chevy-corvette-stingray-z51-vs-2020-porsche-718-cayman-gt4/

Granted it was by 1 point in the ratings, and their lap times were .1 seconds apart on the track.  So those 2 cars are pretty even, personal preference as to which one you prefer.  And if they are even on subjective ratings, and even on a track, then I can see brand name being a deciding factor for people.  I wouldn't buy either of them, but I get the appeal each has to buyers.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

No. That’s what their CUVs are for. Besides, the 718 sells in FEWER numbers than the 911. 
 

@smk4565- What year is your Benz?

But without the 718, they would still have less sales, those 6k people a year that buy one aren't just going to find an extra $50k for a 911.  

And my Mercedes is a 2008, and I have no doubt it will last past 2030 if I decided to keep it that long, I have had it 8 years and will eventually replace it, but it is still in like-new condition, no rust, engine doesn't burn or leak oil, it has been paid off for years, so no reason to get rid of it.

It still shines this well as a near 14 year old car.

 

IMG_0202.HEIC

Edited August 2, 2021 by smk4565

[David]

Tesla Cybertruck is still Vaporware!

Only a single 1 off custom hand built toy exists, nothing else does nor will it till they get Model Y production going in Texas.

Roadster 2.0 is delayed unspecified build/delivery date.

Tesla Semi is delayed till some time in 2022 after Model Y production is going and after the get their new batter cell design to actually produce without such a double digit failure rate. 

Cybertruck, vaporware at this point with an unspecified date for mules in 2022, indicating at the earliest 2023 maybe.

Ford, GM, Rivian will have been out selling far more trucks than Tesla!

[smk4565]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Tesla Cybertruck is still Vaporware!

Only a single 1 off custom hand built toy exists, nothing else does nor will it till they get Model Y production going in Texas.

Roadster 2.0 is delayed unspecified build/delivery date.

Tesla Semi is delayed till some time in 2022 after Model Y production is going and after the get their new batter cell design to actually produce without such a double digit failure rate. 

Cybertruck, vaporware at this point with an unspecified date for mules in 2022, indicating at the earliest 2023 maybe.

Ford, GM, Rivian will have been out selling far more trucks than Tesla!

But eventually Tesla will build all that stuff.  All the other Teslas had delays, they eventually all got build, and they got production volume up over time.  Even if the Cybertruck, Roadster and Semi show up in 2023, that is like 18 months away, I don't think the market will be flooded with EV's by then or that Tesla will miss the boat somehow.  Mercedes is showing 5 EV's at the Munich auto show next month, even if they get all 5 on market by 2023, I doubt even they will be outselling Tesla on EV's.  And personally I hope Mercedes mops the floor with Tesla, but I think Tesla will be their toughest challenge, more so than Lexus or Cadillac or BMW even have been.

[oldshurst442]

Not worth my time...

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ That doesn't jive with your earlier statement that 'guys with 7 cars aren't buying "great performance for their dollar".
718 starts right where the Corvette does; at $60K. Wh-who's buying that when there's a 'much betterer' 911 out there?

One of these is good and the other is "bad", eh? : 
 

Not the right gen Benz. Here is his gen. (2008) but yeah, somehow better than a CT6 interior. 

 

51 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But eventually Tesla will build all that stuff.

But until then, vaporware.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Because one is a Porsche and once is a Chevrolet.  That is my point.  Brand image matters.

Only to brand snobs but you can't say that people won't go for a Vette vs a Porsche 718, on one hand, and then basically imply that it doesn't compete at all because it's a Chevy (that outperforms the 718 and a 911 in most circles) not he other. Again, you are putting too much stock into this brand image thing.

Edited August 2, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

it has been paid off for years, so no reason to get rid of it.

On that part, I agree 100%. If it is serving you well and its paid off, why fix what isn't broken.

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Only to brand snobs but you can't say that people won't go for a Vette vs a Porsche 718, on one hand, and then basically imply that it doesn't compete at all because it's a Chevy (that outperforms the 718 and a 911 in most circles) not he other. Again, you are putting too much stock into this brand image thing.

I am saying the Corvette competes more with the 718 as they overlap directly in price, where as a 911 starts about $40k more than either, and you can run a 911 to $250k or more if you want to.  And in Car and Driver's comparison the Cayman beat the Corvette.  And as I said, some will take the Corvette's horsepower and performance (and bigger trunk space and practicality), others will take Porsche handling, build quality and brand image.  

The brand image isn't everything but it is very important.  It is why a Ferrari Roma that has the same performance as a Corvette but costs $160,000 more.  That Ferrari brand name is why they make $97,000 per car profit.  And I think for sure there are people that want a sports car, and they pick a Cayman over a Corvette (or Nissan GT-R or Supra) just because of the Porsche name, and they won't even test drive those other cars because they are a Chevrolet or Nissan.  And that actually goes both ways, I am sure there are Corvette owners that won't drive a Porsche because it doesn't have a V8 or is a foreign car or whatever their reason is.

[balthazar]

This is why the Corvette traditionally sells between 15K and 30+K and Porsche struggles to move 6K at the same price. Porsche is hoping to get Corvette volume by competing on price, but they cannot compete on performance because of the VW corporate rule that the 911 cannot be beaten. 

 

[David]

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The brand image isn't everything but it is very important.  It is why a Ferrari Roma that has the same performance as a Corvette but costs $160,000 more.  That Ferrari brand name is why they make $97,000 per car profit.  And I think for sure there are people that want a sports car, and they pick a Cayman over a Corvette (or Nissan GT-R or Supra) just because of the Porsche name, and they won't even test drive those other cars because they are a Chevrolet or Nissan.  And that actually goes both ways, I am sure there are Corvette owners that won't drive a Porsche because it doesn't have a V8 or is a foreign car or whatever their reason is.

First off PROVE that they make $97,000 per car profit cause right now your saying that $160,000 auto is really only a $63,000 auto.

Second except for SNOBS, brand image is NOT that important otherwise Porsche, Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. of the over priced auto's would be the only thing selling.

[balthazar]

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I am sure there are Corvette owners that won't drive a Porsche because it doesn't have a V8 or is a foreign car or whatever their reason is.

Maybe because it has a worse interior, isn't any quicker, and there are far better choices out there for the money.

[ C8 Corvette base model : tested 0-60 in 2.7 secs. ]

8 minutes ago, David said:

First off PROVE that they make $97,000 per car profit cause right now your saying that $160,000 auto is really only a $63,000 auto.

He stated '$160K more', meaning $97K on a $210K car.

I have no idea if that's remotely accurate.

[surreal1272]

48 minutes ago, David said:

First off PROVE that they make $97,000 per car profit cause right now your saying that $160,000 auto is really only a $63,000 auto.

Second except for SNOBS, brand image is NOT that important otherwise Porsche, Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. of the over priced auto's would be the only thing selling.

He did say that the Ferrari was $160K more, not that it was $160K. And they do make a killing on them apparently but all that shows me is that are fools who love parting with their money on a rolling fire trap. 
 

https://luxurylaunches.com/transport/ferrari-made-a-staggering-95000-of-profit-on-each-car-it-sold-in-2019.php

Edited August 2, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

48 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Maybe because it has a worse interior, isn't any quicker, and there are far better choices out there for the money

It also never occurred to him that folks might prefer the Vette over the Porsche because the Porsche is overpriced nonsense and their savings can go to better things in life. You can buy the Vette and a fully loaded pickup (for the non-Vette stuff lol) and still undercut a 911 that will at least give you power seats (the base $129K 911 doesn’t even include them). Point here is clearly pandering to brand cachet does indicate being smarter or better than non-cachet folks. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Because one is a Porsche and once is a Chevrolet.

One is a 'Corvette'. It transcends its brand.
 

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

One is a 'Corvette'. It transcends its brand.
 

Again, a concept he can’t seem to grasp. 

[smk4565]

20 hours ago, David said:

First off PROVE that they make $97,000 per car profit cause right now your saying that $160,000 auto is really only a $63,000 auto.

Second except for SNOBS, brand image is NOT that important otherwise Porsche, Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. of the over priced auto's would be the only thing selling.

https://luxurylaunches.com//ferrari-made-a-staggering-95000-of-profit-on-each-car-it-sold-in-2019.php
 

That was 2019, Ferrari made $1.4 billion EBITA last year so probably a little under $1 billion net income, and they sold like 9900 cars.  They are in the $95-100k profit per car the past few years if you just look at profit and cars sold.  Obviously some of that profit is t-shirts and merchandise, but without that brand name they wouldn’t move merch.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

https://luxurylaunches.com//ferrari-made-a-staggering-95000-of-profit-on-each-car-it-sold-in-2019.php
 

That was 2019, Ferrari made $1.4 billion EBITA last year so probably a little under $1 billion net income, and they sold like 9900 cars.  They are in the $95-100k profit per car the past few years if you just look at profit and cars sold.  Obviously some of that profit is t-shirts and merchandise, but without that brand name they wouldn’t move merch.

Posted that very link yesterday and my original statement stands about a fool and his money parting for a rolling firetrap.

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

That was 2019, Ferrari made $1.4 billion EBITA last year so probably a little under $1 billion net income, and they sold like 9900 cars.  They are in the $95-100k profit per car the past few years if you just look at profit and cars sold.  Obviously some of that profit is t-shirts and merchandise, but without that brand name they wouldn’t move merch.

The 2019 revenue from Ferrari merchandising was.... ready for it?... $1.5 billion.
Now obviously merchandisers get a cut of that, but Ferrari may well get the bulk. 

Maybe a little under a $1 billion.... 😁

[balthazar]

When this article was written in May '20, Ferrari stock has peaked at a $30.1 billion dollar market cap, and GM had dipped to $29.7B.
 

Checking back in, Ferrari's market cap has swelled to $44B.
However, GM is now worth $83B.

Edited August 3, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

When this article was written in May '20, Ferrari stock has peaked at a $30.1 billion dollar market cap, and GM had dipped to $29.7B.
 

Checking back in, Ferrari's market cap has swelled to $44B.
However, GM is now worth $83B.

Yeah, look at how much they are worth selling under 10k cars a year.  This is why brand name matters.  I don't know if FCA was even worth $44 billion when Stellantis was formed.  And that is why Ferrari was spun off, because they were worth about the same as the rest of the company however many other brands they had at FCA.

Ford worth $55 billion as of today.

[balthazar]

...and I'm explaining this again.

The company's STOCK is worth that. OEMs have a lot more in assets than just stock capital.

Ferrari has 1 assembly plant. GM has 47 assembly plants/ foundries/ sub-assembly operation locations.

 

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

...and I'm explaining this again.

The company's STOCK is worth that. OEMs have a lot more in assets than just stock capital.

Ferrari has 1 assembly plant. GM has 47 assembly plants/ foundries/ sub-assembly operation locations.

 

Here’s something to consider as well. Will Ferrari still be making those kind of profit margins when they go EV? Not likely. 
 

Also, this whole conversation got sidetracked by a certain someone bringing up Ferrari in the first place. Here’s what needs to be considered. Large profits or not, it doesn’t change the fact that the Vette competes with the like  of Porsche and even some Ferraris. It has been like that for a while, as a matter of fact. With the Vette going mid-engine, those slight gaps in performance between it and the rolling fire traps have closed and that is just with a BASE ENGINE VETTE. That is something brand cachet snobs need to consider before acting like only a silly name matters. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

The looming, unspoken 'industry shaker' is coming down the pike, and it is this:
RE Ferrari and applicable to Tesla- once a GMC Hummer is as quick as a Ferrari & Tesla, what happens to those brands, their image & valuation?

A Ferrari isn't luxurious, it isn't comfortable, it has zero utility... it's al about the image, the look, the visceral performance and the sound. Well, once everybody is electric (if that ever happens), there goes any differentiating visceral performance and that Ferrari sound. What's left is the look (and frankly; there's dozens of exotic-look cars out there)... is that enough to still warrant being 100 grand higher than more pedestrian cars?  

Exotic and ultra-high performance cars have image because their performance is world's better than the 'common rabble' That characteristic is coming to an end.

[ccap41]

There are not dozens of manufacturers that consistently make cars as beautiful as Ferrari does. There are only a few companies that I can think of that have ever put a stick to the beauty of most Ferraris. Aston Martin, Lamborghini, old Jaguars, original SLS Mercedes, ford GTs, select Porsches and that's about it. I'm sure there are others that I can't think of but there aren't many in that regard. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by ccap41
added Porsche

[balthazar]

Of course- to each his own. I find them inconsistent, overwrought and disharmonious. 

[goes off to look for one he likes...]