Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Also, Hennessey is a joke so I don't take anything they say seriously.

That doesn’t change his core point. I personally think it’s more of a joke to have a luxury car maker like Mercedes delaying their seven figure hypercar repeatedly over the last three years. 

[ccap41]

23 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

That doesn’t change his core point. I personally think it’s more of a joke to have a luxury car maker like Mercedes delaying their seven figure hypercar repeatedly over the last three years. 

Yes, but they're also not trying to make due with a modified F1 engine(for whatever reason they feel the need to do this). 

[balthazar]

SSC official 2-way run was still 282.

282 > 273.

[surreal1272]

27 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yes, but they're also not trying to make due with a modified F1 engine(for whatever reason they feel the need to do this). 

That does not change my point at all regarding the “best or nothing”. 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

That does not change my point at all regarding the “best or nothing”. 

I'm not trying to change your point, just mentioning a publicized reason in which Mercedes is taking so long to complete their super car. 

[David]

Seems the Truth is finally coming out and the fact that Tesla will be very late to the Truck segment.

According to this writeup, seems Musk is saying that to build the Cyber truck now in Texas it would have a purchase price of $1,000,000 million dollars plus.

$1,000,000 MILLION DOLLARS PLUS

The cost of Stainless steel, the required 4680 battery cells, bullet/smash proof glass, the ability to tow and haul as he has stated, the over all cost would still make it a million dollar truck. As such, I suspect what will end up being the real CyberTruck if they stay with the name and design, will not have all the stuff they built it with.

Musk Says Cybertruck Would Cost $1-Million A Piece If Built Now (insideevs.com)

Also it is interesting that this story says the Cyber Truck now has over 1 million reservations and yet while Musk has implied they have 7 figures of reservations, there is no real facts on this.

My gut tells me that Ford, GM and Rivian are going to eat Tesla lunch!

[balthazar]

One Million Dollars!

[oldshurst442]

Elon Musk as current leader and CEO of Tesla Motors

 

 

[Robert Hall]

I'm sure there are more than a few rich Tesla fanboys that would buy a $1m Cybertruck.   Tesla fandom is a cult, Elon can do no wrong in their eyes. 

[David]

Seems while Rivian due to supply issues of parts had to delay delivery of R1T till September, has moved forward with a local buyers event to allow people who have an R1T on order to test drive the R1T at this local event.

 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

I'm sure there are more than a few rich Tesla fanboys that would buy a $1m Cybertruck.   Tesla fandom is a cult, Elon can do no wrong in their eyes. 

And I'm sure all ten of them will very happy. I still maintain that the Cybertruck was never meant to be a $40K "pickup". It is a huge paid advertising gimmick from a company that does not use traditional advertising avenues. Just my opinion.

[riviera74]

24 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And I'm sure all ten of them will very happy. I still maintain that the Cybertruck was never meant to be a $40K "pickup". It is a huge paid advertising gimmick from a company that does not use traditional advertising avenues. Just my opinion.

I agree.  Tesla and Rivian and all the EV automakers had better either build a 30K vehicle or get their lunch eaten by FORD and perhaps Toyota.

[ccap41]

12 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

And I'm sure all ten of them will very happy. I still maintain that the Cybertruck was never meant to be a $40K "pickup". It is a huge paid advertising gimmick from a company that does not use traditional advertising avenues. Just my opinion.

I certainly agree AAAAAND it worked out very well. It only added to the Tesla hype. 

[David]

Another UGLY reason to AVOID Tesla! Clearly Musk and the Management team has no Honor as they delay to next quarter and for some into next year that placed their orders early, paid their deposit and just cause now the Tesla S starts $10K higher, they are shipping to the newer reservation holders who are willing to pay the $10K more over early reservation holders who are not having to pay it.

Tesla apologizes for new Model S delays, but some worrying things are going on - Electrek

[David]

Interesting TESLA News this week: 

This is a positive for Tesla - Only 10% battery loss after 200,000 miles and only another .5% loss at 400,000 miles per real world use by Tesla Owners. 

https://electrek.co/2021/08/12/tesla-claims-battery-packs-lose-only-capacity-200000-miles/

Elon Musk is staying they are in EXTREME Supply Chain Limitations due to Renesas and Bosch having supply problems and this is hurting them as they have to also make time to rewrite the firmware to adapt to the new hardware as they bring on additional suppliers. Seems Tesla is not able to move to additional suppliers easily due to hard coding requirements. This would imply that as a small auto company, they have yet to understand how to scale efficiently. 

Elon Musk puts Renesas and Bosch on blast for Tesla's 'extreme supply chain limitations' - Electrek

Seems Tesla is pushing out regular customers to January 2022 now as they focuse on Long range and Performance models for Tesla 3. Long range can be built and delivered by November 2021 and Performance models their most expensive can be built and delivered in 3 to 4 weeks.

Clearly Musk is focusing on Rich people and could care less about the rest of us as long as we buy Tesla marketing stuff and over priced stock, etc. to keep him going with his space program. Who cares about the average people who actually make up the bulk of the population.

Tesla pushes new Model 3 Standard Range Plus orders to 2022 - Electrek

This tends to enforce why I think Ford/GM/Rivian can eat Tesla fast over the next 24 months as they ramp up production.

 

[ccap41]

10.5% battery loss at 400,000 miles seems phenomenal if you ask me. 

[balthazar]

The highest mileage Tesla out there, a 2014 Model S, reached 745K miles in Oct of '20, but the owner replaced the motors 4 times and the battery packs 3 times by Nov '19.
I wonder how much different a '21 Tesla is in this regard...

[David]

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

10.5% battery loss at 400,000 miles seems phenomenal if you ask me. 

I think this is no different than an engine that looses compression and the transmission loosing torque.

It will be interesting as data becomes available to compare how electric motors compare to ICE in regards to what they loose in HP/Torque as we know ICE looses MPG as the engine wears, so some battery loss is normal and I honestly do not think 10.5% over 400,000 miles is that big of a deal. Newer batteries are getting even better so just as ICE has improved MPG, I expect newer batteries to do the same with electric motors.

[oldshurst442]

Induction motors do not lose torque. 

The magnetic field never stops giving magnetic vibes as long as that rotor turns around the stator.  There is never a drop in magnetic power as long as rotor rotates inside the stator the way it was intended to...

The shaft that allows the rotor to rotate around the stator might give eventually, might get misaligned, get imbalanced that will eventually fail the bearings...but as long as the rotor is rotating, there will be constant electricity flowing producing constant torque never missing a beat. 

Electric motors are known to continuously work non-stop for thousands upon thousands of hours...

Of course there is wear and tear.  Anything mechanical has wear and tear and will eventually give out.  But an electric motor, as long as the shaft and bearings are aligned and rotate as they should, an electric motor should always produce the same constant power and torque throughout its lifetime. 

[balthazar]

^ AC induction, yes.
DC... not so much (more wear items). Tesla uses AC induction, as did the GM EV1. Most other BE's use DC, from what I've read.

[riviera74]

Is GM's Ultium using AC induction or DC?

[David]

16 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Is GM's Ultium using AC induction or DC?

That is a Million Dollar question as GM has not stated which type their motors are. You can look at their EV site or any press release and that is one thing no one seems to have asked.

Committing to an All-Electric Future | General Motors (gm.com)

GM Reveals New Ultium Batteries and a Flexible Global Platform to Rapidly Grow its EV Portfolio

Even in the very detailed release of the Cadillac Lyriq they do not state if the motors are AC or DC.

2023 Cadillac LYRIQ Debuts, Heralding an All-Electric Future (gm.com)

Very weird as I would have thought an automag site would have asked that tech question and I have not found an answer yet.

Do not be surprised if they are DC motors due to being cheaper to repair and DC seems to wear out faster than AC.

UPDATE:

So I found this story on when the Bolt was coming out.

The technology behind the soon-to-arrive Chevrolet Bolt EV - Electronic Products

QUOTE: The Bolt uses a permanent-magnet synchronous motor built in South Korea by Chevy partner LG-e. The high-efficiency motor is a GM design that provides 200 hp/150 kW. Peak motor efficiency is 97%.

And SAE confirms that it is an AC Motor system: Electric Motor Design of General Motors’ Chevrolet Bolt Electric Vehicle (sae.org)

This current story seems to imply that the whole Ultium Powertrain platform is AC as both the Hybrid Corvette and BEV Corvette will use AC motors as will the rest of the GM family of Hybrids / BEVs.

Electrified Corvette (sae.org)

QUOTE the Corvette story:

To further exploit its vaunted Corvette nameplate, GM appears ready to bless a new family of battery-electric SUVs with the sportscar’s badge and design cues. Bloomberg recently reported that GM’s Project R will bring just such a product to market after 2025. At a CES 2021 presentation, GM design VP Mike Simcoe confirmed that the company’s coming Ultium battery pack “enables a wide range of models, especially for a broad brand like Chevrolet.

The Ultium platform will allow Chevrolet to further expand its range of electric vehicles to full-size pickups, compact SUVs and even high-performance vehicles.” Traditionalists may lament this extension of the hallowed nameplate to vehicles with too many seats, but there’s no surer way to guarantee life for the Corvette after the last drop of petroleum has been consumed.

Newest review: 2021 Chevrolet Bolt EV electric Performance and MPG | CarIndigo.com

They clearly state AC Motors confirmed via GM.

[David]

Was not aware of this till I read this story, but it seems at the end of 2019, Tesla changed from their $1,000 deposit on auto orders/reservations which was fully refundable if you decided to cancel to a $100 non-refundable deposit with a 7 day less than 1,000 miles returnable policy if you did not like the auto.

At the end of 2020, Tesla gave up on it's no questions asked return policy but kept in place that if you place an order and cancel it before taking delivery, you still loose your $100 deposit.

Now Tesla has more than doubled it as a non-returnable deposit is now $250.00 for any vehicle you order.

Tesla more than doubles its non-refundable order fee - Electrek

[riviera74]

17 hours ago, David said:

Was not aware of this till I read this story, but it seems at the end of 2019, Tesla changed from their $1,000 deposit on auto orders/reservations which was fully refundable if you decided to cancel to a $100 non-refundable deposit with a 7 day less than 1,000 miles returnable policy if you did not like the auto.

At the end of 2020, Tesla gave up on it's no questions asked return policy but kept in place that if you place an order and cancel it before taking delivery, you still loose your $100 deposit.

Now Tesla has more than doubled it as a non-returnable deposit is now $250.00 for any vehicle you order.

Tesla more than doubles its non-refundable order fee - Electrek

Sounds like Tesla is acting more like a regular auto dealer.

[David]

18 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Sounds like Tesla is acting more like a regular auto dealer.

Yes, all about making money and who cares about the customer attitude is what I see from Tesla.

[smk4565]

On 8/9/2021 at 8:46 PM, riviera74 said:

I agree.  Tesla and Rivian and all the EV automakers had better either build a 30K vehicle or get their lunch eaten by FORD and perhaps Toyota.

But the other brands aren’t building an affordable EV either.  The Mach-E starts in the $40s, Toyota is missing in action, the VW iD4 starts in the $40s and is comparable to  RAV4 or CRV per their own advertising but the iD4 costs $15k more.  People will pay big money for a Tesla.  Mercedes or BMW could sell $60k EV’s all day long because their is what their customers are used to paying.  Ford customers aren’t used to paying $50k for a small SUV.

[smk4565]

On 8/17/2021 at 1:50 PM, David said:

 

To further exploit its vaunted Corvette nameplate, GM appears ready to bless a new family of battery-electric SUVs with the sportscar’s badge and design cues. Bloomberg recently reported that GM’s Project R will bring just such a product to market after 2025. At a CES 2021 presentation, GM design VP Mike Simcoe confirmed that the company’s coming Ultium battery pack “enables a wide range of models, especially for a broad brand like Chevrolet.

The Ultium platform will allow Chevrolet to further expand its range of electric vehicles to full-size pickups, compact SUVs and even high-performance vehicles.” Traditionalists may lament this extension of the hallowed nameplate to vehicles with too many seats, but there’s no surer way to guarantee life for the Corvette after the last drop of petroleum has been 

I hope any electric Corvette has 2 doors and 2 seats.  Or at least 2 doors and if they do a 2+2 configuration like the 911 or 2022 Mercedes SL that would be fine since without an engine you open up some space.  But no on family of Corvette SUVs, that would be awful.

[balthazar]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Ford customers aren’t used to paying $50k for a small SUV

Ford reported a 70% conquest rate on the Mach-E; these aren’t ‘Ford customers’. Just like before the Model 3 came out, there weren’t any Model 3 customers.

[David]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But the other brands aren’t building an affordable EV either.  The Mach-E starts in the $40s, Toyota is missing in action, the VW iD4 starts in the $40s and is comparable to  RAV4 or CRV per their own advertising but the iD4 costs $15k more.  People will pay big money for a Tesla.  Mercedes or BMW could sell $60k EV’s all day long because their is what their customers are used to paying.  Ford customers aren’t used to paying $50k for a small SUV.

Mercedes has failed to capture any market share in the BEV market yet.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I hope any electric Corvette has 2 doors and 2 seats.  Or at least 2 doors and if they do a 2+2 configuration like the 911 or 2022 Mercedes SL that would be fine since without an engine you open up some space.  But no on family of Corvette SUVs, that would be awful.

Why not have Performance SUV/CUVs!

Porsche is alive due to SUV/CUVs, Mercedes has done both regular and AMG whored out SUV/CUVs even in the G-wagon. So why not have a Corvette SUV.

24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Ford reported a 70% conquest rate on the Mach-E; these aren’t ‘Ford customers’. Just like before the Model 3 came out, there weren’t any Model 3 customers.

This plus 1,000,000 up votes as Ford is taking away BEV sales from everyone with the Mach-e!

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, David said:

Porsche is alive due to SUV/CUVs,

Porsche ADDED SUVs, it didn't convert the 911 into one.
Corvette = forever a 2-seater.

[riviera74]

GM has plenty of SUVs and CUVs.  No need to convert a Corvette into a CUV.  Now, if you want a Cadillac CUV that will crush what Tesla is offering, GM should do that instead of using the Corvette name to sell a CUV.

[ccap41]

I'd be okay with a Corvette-branded SUV as long as they keep the 2-seater as well. 

[David]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Porsche ADDED SUVs, it didn't convert the 911 into one.
Corvette = forever a 2-seater.

Yes, they added, which I did not clarify.

43 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

GM has plenty of SUVs and CUVs.  No need to convert a Corvette into a CUV.  Now, if you want a Cadillac CUV that will crush what Tesla is offering, GM should do that instead of using the Corvette name to sell a CUV.

I agree that Cadillac should have  V version of CUV/SUV.

I also see no reason to not add a Corvette CUV/SUV if the market shows interest. I honestly do not see a need for an SS version if you offer a Corvette or Camaro CUV/SUV to the portfolio. Yet GM has put SS on everything in the past even auto's that really should never have been called an SS. 

Will be interesting to see what GM does for the Performance side of selling BEVs.

[David]

This is a game changer and will help Tesla survive. Going from 370 parts to 3 pieces that are connected to give you the under pinning of the auto not only reduces weight, but increases stiffness.

Tesla is using the IDRA to make a front, back and battery container. As such, you have just 3 modules to connect and seal compared to the existing 370 pieces.

More details here: Tesla's Giga Press Die Castings for Model 3 Eliminate 370 Parts (designnews.com)

 

[balthazar]

Did they figger out a way to eliminate the wood lathe as structural elements, or is that ‘gamechanger’ still in the examination phase??

Edited August 26, 2021 by balthazar

[David]

42 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Did they figger out a way to eliminate the wood lathe as structural elements, or is that ‘gamechanger’ still in the examination phase??

Are you talking about the wood shims from Home Depot to hold the heat pump in place? If so I have no idea. Hopefully there is no wood shims in the core frame of the auto with these 3 parts now. Seems 2022 models will get this new structure, but current built Tesla will have the 370 pieces, though I honestly could be wrong as they might have switched over already, but Musk has not stated when they are actually removing the 300 robots as they simplify the assembly of the auto's.

[balthazar]

Oh god. No - these were in the rear section of an SUV, under the cargo floor, IIRC. 

How much wood is used in building a Tesla?!?

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, David said:

Mercedes has failed to capture any market share in the BEV market yet.

Why not have Performance SUV/CUVs!

Porsche is alive due to SUV/CUVs, Mercedes has done both regular and AMG whored out SUV/CUVs even in the G-wagon. So why not have a Corvette SUV.

This plus 1,000,000 up votes as Ford is taking away BEV sales from everyone with the Mach-e!

Because Corvette is not a brand.  If they are going to make a Corvette brand, then it should have a stand alone dealership like Cadillac, and no longer be at Chevrolet dealers.  If they want to make Corvette the 5th GM brand, and supply it with a full line, 2 coupes, a sedan, 2 SUVs, and perhaps more like Porsche has, then that is another story.  Also would be a dumb move to dump billions into making a new brand, rather than giving Cadillac these performance models, but GM likes to do dumb things.

[balthazar]

No one @ GM is discussing making 'Corvette' a brand. 

You'r post is a ridiculous snipe hunt.

Edited August 26, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

No one @ GM is discussing making 'Corvette' a brand. 
 

Well I hope not.

[balthazar]

I'm sure, somewhere out there, someone is hoping & praying that mercedes doesn't revert to it's roots; a few vastly-underpowered, spartan & outdated sedans, and a 4-banger convertible 'sports car', with black rubber steering wheels from the bus division, an exposed gas filler neck poking out the rear fascia like a mail truck, and some of the worst body hardware engineering this side of World War II. I mean... it's probably come up in the board meetings...

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I'd be okay with a Corvette-branded SUV as long as they keep the 2-seater as well. 

 

 Knowing what SUVs have done to Porsche,  which has divided the fanbase into Porsche 911 fans and Porsche CUV fans, Id rather Corvette just stay pure Corvette.  

I no longer feels that Corvette the brand needs to expand to become a brand on its own...  Corvette the brand is doing just fine JUST being Corvette! 

The Corvette brand needs to expand, but I need/want it to expand  into more precise machines to better compete with Porsche and its many 911 variants and with Ferrari with their many different models,  head to head, one on one.  

I want a  Pista/GT2RS Corvette (Z06 ?) with a Superleggera/GT3 Corvette and a LaCorvette Corvette with a  (ZR1?) that is different from a Superfast Corvette even if THAT means in bringing a front engine, RWD car back again... 

 

 

[ccap41]

Corvette is already a brand of its own as they don't even put Chevrolet badges on the car. 

[surreal1272]

20 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I'd be okay with a Corvette-branded SUV as long as they keep the 2-seater as well. 

No

No

No

No

13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Corvette is already a brand of its own as they don't even put Chevrolet badges on the car. 

It's not a solo affair but the chevy logo is inside the Vette emblem.

 

On 8/25/2021 at 11:22 PM, smk4565 said:

Ford customers aren’t used to paying $50k for a small SUV.

Do you just enjoy being wrong?

On 8/25/2021 at 11:22 PM, smk4565 said:

But the other brands aren’t building an affordable EV either.

The Bolt starts in the 30s.

[oldshurst442]

14 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Corvette is already a brand of its own as they don't even put Chevrolet badges on the car. 

They never did put Chevrolet badges on the car. Not in 1953. Not in 2021.

For the C1 Corvette, "Chevrolet" was on the emblem. 

But the Corvette emblem ALWAYS had a Chevrolet Bow Tie in it.  Always on the red flag.  Sometimes partially covered. Sometimes full. In 1953 all the way to 2021.

 

 

There is a Fleur de Lys on the emblem.     I wanna know why. Do you have an answer @balthazar? 

[surreal1272]

16 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

There is a Fleur de Lys on the emblem.     I wanna know why. Do you have an answer

This should answer it.

https://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/history/emblem.html

[ccap41]

I still see zero issues with a Corvette-branded SUV sitting along side a Corvette. Make it Cayenne-sized and competitive and it would sell like hot cakes. 

[balthazar]

Chevy doesn’t have half a dozen SUVs already selling like hotcakes?
Porsche had none prior to the Cayenne.

[ccap41]

General Motors has zero RWD-based SUV's that compete with high end sporty SUVs. In fact, GM has zero sporty SUVs across all 17 brands. 

Correct, and Chevy had no Corvette until they made the Corvette. That's exactly how things work. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by ccap41

[balthazar]

'SUV' isn't a model; 'Corvette' is.

And while you specified 'Corvette SUV', it seemed to be more about the vehicle classification rather than the model name associated with it.

While I'd like to see some sporting SUV trims from Chevy, a 'Corvette SUV' is not among my wishes. Not to mention, I believe the vast majority of Cayennes are driven in exactly the same manner as Tahoes are.
Unless there's competition events featuring Cayennes I should be aware of?