Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[smk4565]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It's not up to you to define. 

Sorry.

So these are supercars then.  As they are both faster on a track than a Corvette.

 

As is this ugly BMW

[riviera74]

Why BMW insisted on making their kidney grills cartoonishly MEGA, I will never understand.  Does it help with sales or something?

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Porsche 718 has a turbo 4, the Supra has one, Alpine A110 in Europe, there are 4 cylinder sports cars.  AMG has a 2.0 liter turbo 4 hybrid coming next year with 643 hp, I'd rather that that 4-cylinder than the 6.2 V8 making 495 hp in the Corvette.  Now I know GM won't do it, they'll ride the pushrod V8 to 2030 when the ICE V8 dies.

Get one then and make sure to get back to us after about 30K miles of wear and tear on a 643 HP four pot. Apologies from you, at that point, will be expected. 

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Now I know GM won't do it, they'll ride the pushrod V8 to 2030 when the ICE dies.

Corrected for accuracy. 
 

And for the billionth time, F a four banger in a Vette. Just stop that nonsense already. 

[balthazar]

didn't mercedes drop a fuel injected I-6 to put an anemic carbureted 4-banger in their so-called 'sports car' back in the height of the muscle car horsepower wars?

Maybe mercedes should put a turbo 4 in their AMGGT, you know; to increase sales. They could charge $29.9K, call it the AAMGGT.

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

didn't mercedes drop a fuel injected I-6 to put an anemic carbureted 4-banger in their so-called 'sports car' back in the height of the muscle car horsepower wars?

Maybe mercedes should put a turbo 4 in their AMGGT, you know; to increase sales. They could charge $29.9K, call it the AAMGGT.

They had a 4 cylinder SL during the first generation, but the Pagoda SL was I-6, and since the 70s it has been mostly V8s, until the V6 popping up more recently, and of course some V12s.  And cylinder count doesn't equal horsepower.

I believe both the next-gen SL and the next AMG GT will get the turbo 4 hybrid, and with 640 hp and 730 lb-ft of torque, I am sure it will be faster than a 495 hp, 475 lb-ft Corvette.  And they are putting an 805 hp V8 hybrid in the AMG GT and SL.  And it is possible that they do a 400 hp turbo 4 with 48V mild hybrid for the base SL, we should find out next month.

[surreal1272]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They had a 4 cylinder SL during the first generation, but the Pagoda SL was I-6, and since the 70s it has been mostly V8s, until the V6 popping up more recently, and of course some V12s.  And cylinder count doesn't equal horsepower.

I believe both the next-gen SL and the next AMG GT will get the turbo 4 hybrid, and with 640 hp and 730 lb-ft of torque, I am sure it will be faster than a 495 hp, 475 lb-ft Corvette.  And they are putting an 805 hp V8 hybrid in the AMG GT and SL.  And it is possible that they do a 400 hp turbo 4 with 48V mild hybrid for the base SL, we should find out next month.

And not ONE of those four pots get that power without hybrid assistance so it is, at least, a little bit about the cylinder count (especially given your past hype of the V12 from Benz) and all of them cost considerably more coin than the Vette. Just skip the fact that Z06 is about to be announced just over a month and will have more HP than all of those mentioned except the much more expensive AMG GT. The rumored EV Vette is another matter entirely so if you are going to bring up all the next upcoming Daimlers toys then make sure you are comparing them to the upcoming Vette toys as well. Otherwise, again, not even close to an apples to apples comparison here.

18 hours ago, smk4565 said:

So these are supercars then.  As they are both faster on a track than a Corvette.

 

As is this ugly BMW

Guess that makes the Tesla S one as well, since it smokes everything else (including a handful of supercars) from 0-60.

Edited August 28, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

 

Guess that makes the Tesla S one as well, since it smokes everything else (including a handful of supercars) from 0-60.

0-60 sure, but on a track, when you have to add in handling, braking, grip, aero, top speed, etc the AMG GT 4-door beats the Corvette and so far any Tesla.  But bring on the Z06, the Plaid+++ or whatever else, there is a GT73 coming next month, so Mercedes can break their own Nurburgring record for 4 door cars.  And the Black Series is way ahead of the C8, it will probably take the Zora to get to where the Black Series is now on a track, and the AMG One is going to beat everything anyway, so I don't know if it even matters.

[surreal1272]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

0-60 sure, but on a track, when you have to add in handling, braking, grip, aero, top speed, etc the AMG GT 4-door beats the Corvette and so far any Tesla.  But bring on the Z06, the Plaid+++ or whatever else, there is a GT73 coming next month, so Mercedes can break their own Nurburgring record for 4 door cars.  And the Black Series is way ahead of the C8, it will probably take the Zora to get to where the Black Series is now on a track, and the AMG One is going to beat everything anyway, so I don't know if it even matters.

So 0-60 doesn’t matter now? Got it. 
 

Btw, my original post was not to be taken literally. I was being as silly as you were with your examples posted. The rest of your post is the same old, same old “just wait” because again, you have this problem with apples and oranges and like Balth said, it’s just a broken record at this point. 

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

AMG GT 4-door beats the Corvette

And again, for more than double the price of the Vette, it damn sure better be faster. 
 

This is the type of apples to oranges nonsense to which I was referring. 

[smk4565]

48 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

 

And again, for more than double the price of the Vette, it damn sure better be faster. 
 

This is the type of apples to oranges nonsense to which I was referring. 

But if the Corvette is a "super car" why is is slower on a race track than big, heavy sedans from BMW, Mercedes and Porsche?  Why is it slower than an M4 for similar money that gives you a (small) backseat and is more practical and has all wheel drive for bad weather?   Now on VIR, where GM sort of tunes their cars for that track, the C8 Z51 has a 2:49.0, the AMG GT63 sedan a 2:49.3 and the CT5 Blackwing a 2:49.5, but still, barely beating 2 sedans, albeit very fast sedans.  

And people here want to say the Corvette is a competitor to AMG GT, Ferrari, Lamborghini, but when the lap times go up and the Corvette is way slower, then people say, well the Corvette costs half as much so of course it doesn't have the performance of the Europeans, or the luxury of the Europeans.  If the Corvette brand name is so strong, and they want to compete with the European heavyweights, then why not make the base Corvette say $125,000, the Z06 about $200,000 and the ZR1 $300,000.  Go up there and play with the big boys.

[balthazar]

C7 Z06 put down a 7:10 lap time, that's faster than a Porsche GT3.
Corvette test drivers are saying they expect the C8 to be 12-14 secs quicker than that, or a 6:56.

Last officiated Corvette run was FIVE model years ago (the 7:13).

But what fascinates me is smk's persistent yet erroneous view that Nurburing is a race track. It's not; it's a test track. They don't line up an Aventador & a GT2 and race them there... so how do 10 secs on a 7 min lap translate to... anything??

Question; is this a 'supercar' (it ran a 7:44 in 2019) ?

Edited August 29, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And people here want to say the Corvette is a competitor to AMG GT, Ferrari, Lamborghini, but when the lap times go up and the Corvette is way slower

Nobody phoquing said that

What was said is that the C8 Z06 WILL trounce the 'Ring's current times...

To boot, the Z06 will be a fraction of the price of the German cars.

If German engineering is sooooo phoquing great, I wanna know why Mercedes and Porsche cant seem to engineer a faster car than the Corvette at Corvette's engineering and MSRP price points?

You see, it goes both ways.

YOU say that why doesnt GM engineer a higher priced machine?

I say, the opposite, why is it that German and Italian supercar engineering canNOT be met at Corvette's price point?

GTFO with you shyte phoquing analysis! 

It means nothing.  Its worthless. 

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Why is it slower than an M4

Its not slower. In fact, in real track races over at IMSA, Corvette and Corvette Racing has cleaned BMW's clock now for 20 years.  

 

So....stop your phoquing lies...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a37220827/watch-the-bmw-m4-competition-lap-the-nurburgring-in-730/

Despite its questionable exterior styling, the G82 generation BMW M4 Competition represents a significant step on from its predecessor. Thanks to the team over at Sport Auto, we now have a chance to see the new car prove itself on the Nurburgring Nordschleife. With test driver Christian Gebhardt at the wheel, the sports coupe posted an impressive lap time of just 7 minutes 30.79 seconds.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

C8 Z51 has a 2:49.0

  BASE PHOQUING CORVETTE AGAINST THE TOP LINE 3 AND 4 SERIES BMW

STOP YOUR TROLLING!!!

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But if the Corvette is a "super car" why is is slower on a race track than big, heavy sedans from BMW, Mercedes and Porsche?  Why is it slower than an M4 for similar money that gives you a (small) backseat and is more practical and has all wheel drive for bad weather?   Now on VIR, where GM sort of tunes their cars for that track, the C8 Z51 has a 2:49.0, the AMG GT63 sedan a 2:49.3 and the CT5 Blackwing a 2:49.5, but still, barely beating 2 sedans, albeit very fast sedans.  

And people here want to say the Corvette is a competitor to AMG GT, Ferrari, Lamborghini, but when the lap times go up and the Corvette is way slower, then people say, well the Corvette costs half as much so of course it doesn't have the performance of the Europeans, or the luxury of the Europeans.  If the Corvette brand name is so strong, and they want to compete with the European heavyweights, then why not make the base Corvette say $125,000, the Z06 about $200,000 and the ZR1 $300,000.  Go up there and play with the big boys.

Again, proving my point about apples to oranges. FFS

[surreal1272]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Now on VIR, where GM sort of tunes their cars for that track, the C8 Z51 has a 2:49.0, the AMG GT63 sedan a 2:49.3 and the CT5 Blackwing a 2:49.5

Yeah, just skip the 150-170HP difference there because that wouldn't suit your ridiculous narrative.

[surreal1272]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And people here want to say the Corvette is a competitor to AMG GT, Ferrari, Lamborghini, but when the lap times go up and the Corvette is way slower, then people say, well the Corvette costs half as much so of course it doesn't have the performance of the Europeans, or the luxury of the Europeans.

That's a BASE MODEL Vette, a repeated fact you keep ignoring. How does a BASE model M4 do (4.1 sec. 0-60 time)? How about that BASE model AMG GT (with its 4.8 sec. 0-60 time)? Get the entire F out of here if you can't grasp that simple little concept.

Here's the kicker. What do the last two pages have to do with the thread subject?

Edited August 29, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

18 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

If German engineering is sooooo phoquing great, I wanna know why Mercedes and Porsche cant seem to engineer a faster car than the Corvette at Corvette's engineering and MSRP price points?

 

Because Mercedes and Porsche are luxury brands.  Chevrolet is not.  And actually the Porsche 718 has very similar track times to a C8 and at similar price.  

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Because Mercedes and Porsche are luxury brands.  Chevrolet is not.  And actually the Porsche 718 has very similar track times to a C8 and at similar price.  

 

21 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 If the Corvette brand name is so strong, and they want to compete with the European heavyweights, then why not make the base Corvette say $125,000, the Z06 about $200,000 and the ZR1 $300,000.  Go up there and play with the big boys.

 

With that being said...

 

You dont seem to understand what engineering means...

Ill repeat, if Mercedes and Porsche engineering is sooooo great,  why is it that it takes Mercedes 3 times the money to accomplish what Chevrolet engineers could achieve, and STILL fall short?

 

[surreal1272]

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Because Mercedes and Porsche are luxury brands.  Chevrolet is not.  And actually the Porsche 718 has very similar track times to a C8 and at similar price.  

Wrong again. The 718 package that runs with the BASE Vette is over $100K, runs the 0-60 in 4.2 seconds (as opposed to the Vette 2.9 second time). The entry line Cayman can't touch it.

 

The BASE Vette does, however, run with a $122K BASE Porsche 911. And I quote,

 

"With the Porsche, it takes only 2.9 seconds, but the Corvette needs just 2.8, making it the quickest factory Corvette to 60 mph in history. The advantage carries through the quarter, the Corvette trapping in 11.1 seconds at 123.2 mph and the 911 in 11.2 seconds at 124.3. And these are just the base versions of each car. What a time to be alive." 

 

Got anything else?

 

What you have to bear in mind here is that the Vette does this in its FIRST YEAR as a mid-engine car against a car that has been that way for 60 years. I don't give a damn what you say but that is a huge accomplish, in and of itself, and again with a BASE MODEL. I look forward to seeing what the upcoming Z06 brings to the table in October and I have never been a huge Vette fan.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by surreal1272

[David]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Because Mercedes and Porsche are luxury brands.  Chevrolet is not.  And actually the Porsche 718 has very similar track times to a C8 and at similar price.  

Wrong, The union workers from Engineering to assembly line is why they have to charge 3 times as much and are not able to accomplish what the corvette can do. You seem to not understand the crazy socialist costs that the Germans have where America does not.

The 718 is NOT able to compete with the corvette as it is slower and still more expensive. Porsche looses here in the value category as does BMW, Audi and Especially Mercedes.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Wrong again. The 718 package that runs with the BASE Vette is over $100K, runs the 0-60 in 4.2 seconds (as opposed to the Vette 2.9 second time). The entry line Cayman can't touch it.

 

The BASE Vette does, however, run with a $122K BASE Porsche 911. And I quote,

 

"With the Porsche, it takes only 2.9 seconds, but the Corvette needs just 2.8, making it the quickest factory Corvette to 60 mph in history. The advantage carries through the quarter, the Corvette trapping in 11.1 seconds at 123.2 mph and the 911 in 11.2 seconds at 124.3. And these are just the base versions of each car. What a time to be alive." 

 

Got anything else?

 

What you have to bear in mind here is that the Vette does this in its FIRST YEAR as a mid-engine car against a car that has been that way for 60 years. I don't give a damn what you say but that is a huge accomplish, in and of itself, and again with a BASE MODEL. I look forward to seeing what the upcoming Z06 brings to the table in October and I have never been a huge Vette fan.

 

 

The Porsche 718 GT4 is about the same performance on a track as a C8 Z51.  Car and Driver tested them against each other, the C8 was $86,000 as equipped and the Cayman was $105,000.  And the Cayman won the comparison, the Cayman is over 400 lbs lighter, it brakes better and it grips better, gets better gas mileage too, not that people buying those care.  The Corvette has more straight line speed, the Porsche has it every where else.  

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a33825844/2020-chevy-corvette-stingray-z51-vs-2020-porsche-718-cayman-gt4/

 

And sure the Z06 will be faster, we'll see how it compares to a 911 GT3 or GT2.  But the other guys are getting faster too, by the time the ZR1/Zora arrives, there will be a new AMG GT, new Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Tesla Roadster, etc.  But to me the Corvette still has a mediocre interior, it it light years away from a Porsche, Mercedes or Audi/Lamborghini.  

12 minutes ago, David said:

Wrong, The union workers from Engineering to assembly line is why they have to charge 3 times as much and are not able to accomplish what the corvette can do. You seem to not understand the crazy socialist costs that the Germans have where America does not.

The 718 is NOT able to compete with the corvette as it is slower and still more expensive. Porsche looses here in the value category as does BMW, Audi and Especially Mercedes.

The Corvette is built by union workers.

[oldshurst442]

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

, there will be a new AMG GT, new Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Tesla Roadster, etc.

And by THAT time a C9 Corvette will ALSO hit the streets!

STOP PHOQUING TROLLING! 

STOP RESPONDING LIKE AN ADOLESCANT IDIOT!

[surreal1272]

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Porsche 718 GT4 is about the same performance on a track as a C8 Z51.

Let me correct this for you,

 

The Porsche 718 GT4 is about the same performance on a track as a C8 Z51 (which still uses a base 6.2L N/A V8 where as the GT4 is 114HP greater than a BASE model Cayman.)

 

Just skip the last part of that article where they had issue with the $20K price difference while being basically neck and neck. Basically there Cayman had to be juiced (that extra 114 HP) to run with a BASE engine Vette.

Guess by you bar moving BS logic, that the Cayman is better than the 911 (Vette won a similar comparo against the 911 in a MT review). You have literally missed the entire damn pint here because it flew in the face of your "anything but a lowly Chevy" argument.

 

 

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette is built by union workers.

And do you honestly think they make equal pay? I have a bridge to sell you if you do.

[balthazar]

Porsche is a high performance brand.

Mercedes is a mass-volume mainstream brand (with a couple of high-priced models).

[surreal1272]

Since, believe it or not, this thread is about the competition vs Tesla I found a recent writeup on the Lucid Air Dream Edition. Yes, it carries a way high price but spec wise, it destroys the Tesla Model S on just about every metric that matters (that I can see) and makes the EQS look downright foolish overall (exception being the looks which will always be a subjective thing). The interior absolutely kills the Tesla and I see that they paid a little homage to Cadillac with that stretched screen design lol. On paper, at least, the Lucid is just top notch. Now let's see it out in the wild and see how it does.

 

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-lucid-air-dream-edition-r-exclusive-first-drive-review/

Edited August 30, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

Not impressed with the Lucid onside or out.

[surreal1272]

13 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Not impressed with the Lucid onside or out.

I get that because, like I said, the looks will be subjective. I would like to see some different color combinations, inside and out, before I say for sure how I feel about it. What is not in doubt for me, is that the overall driving specs are better than the Model S and the interior is lights years better than it.

[ccap41]

Corvette. SUV. 

[David]

Tesla has serious trouble as we approach only days away from Rivian starting to ship their trucks. This ability just kills anything Tesla has even tried to do to date.

 

[David]

This is what one can expect of a cyber truck in a reasonable price range.

The Plybertruck Is the Cybertruck’s Poorer, More Awesome Cousin from Out of Town - autoevolution

[Robert Hall]

6 minutes ago, David said:

This is what one can expect of a cyber truck in a reasonable price range.

The Plybertruck Is the Cybertruck’s Poorer, More Awesome Cousin from Out of Town - autoevolution

Just give it a brushed aluminum wrap and it will look just like a Cybertruck. 

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

Not impressed with the Lucid onside or out.

Yeah I will need to see the Lucid on the streets and see actual performance and range numbers.  Also they are like $150k and up, I question how viable a company it is selling 1 model that is a $100k plus sedan when large sedans are dying breed except maybe in Germany and China and I am not sure if Lucid will be in either place.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

Tesla has serious trouble as we approach only days away from Rivian starting to ship their trucks. This ability just kills anything Tesla has even tried to do to date.

 

But will Rivian have sedans?  Multiple Crossovers?  You don’t stay in business on 1 model, look at how much the Toyota Tundra struggles because they basically have 1 body style.  And that is okay because Toyota has about 30 other models.  
 

All these startups will be small time and maybe not survive because they don’t have factory space or ability to put out a new product every year.  I think the goal of Rivian and Lucid is to get acquired by another car company, but I don’t think any car company is interested in buying them.

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

But will Rivian have sedans?  Multiple Crossovers?  You don’t stay in business on 1 model, look at how much the Toyota Tundra struggles because they basically have 1 body style.  And that is okay because Toyota has about 30 other models.  

They immediately have a truck and SUV. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Yeah I will need to see the Lucid on the streets and see actual performance and range numbers.  Also they are like $150k and up, I question how viable a company it is selling 1 model that is a $100k plus sedan when large sedans are dying breed except maybe in Germany and China and I am not sure if Lucid will be in either place.

Tesla had no problem starting with the Model S SEDAN, that often crests over $100K, so I'm not sure price has any bearing here nor the type of car.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

But will Rivian have sedans?  Multiple Crossovers?

Research is your friend. 

 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Yeah I will need to see the Lucid on the streets and see actual performance and range numbers.  Also they are like $150k and up, I question how viable a company it is selling 1 model that is a $100k plus sedan when large sedans are dying breed except maybe in Germany and China and I am not sure if Lucid will be in either place.

Wrong again, on the price. Again. research.

[ccap41]

41 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Wrong again, on the price. Again. research.

This is news to me, as well.  I thought they started at like 100k (not the 150 smk was claiming). 

[surreal1272]

34 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

This is news to me, as well.  I thought they started at like 100k (not the 150 smk was claiming). 

I think they are doing like Tesla and starting with higher trim models first but they have routinely stated that there would be sub-$100K models. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

They immediately have a truck and SUV. 

So a pickup with one body style and an SUV that starts at $75,000 beginning January 2022.  
 

BMW makes 7 SUVs and has 2 more coming next year.  How does Rivian offer consumer choice with 1 SUV when the other guy has 9 of them?  

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Tesla had no problem starting with the Model S SEDAN, that often crests over $100K, so I'm not sure price has any bearing here nor the type of car.

Research is your friend. 

 

Tesla started nearly 10 years ago, since then the Taurus, Impala, Lacrosse, XTS, CT6, MKS, Continental, Kia K900, Cadenza have died, the Avalon dies next year and I think Jag XJ does, Aston Martin Rapide is probably dead, if it isn’t who would even notice.  That’s like 10 big sedans that have died.  And Lucid picked full size sedan as the starting point??? No growth in that segment.

 

And I know Rivian has 2 models, but look how long it has taken Tesla to get to 4 models, and get the truck and Roadster going.  These big car companies can crank out multiple new models per year.

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So a pickup with one body style and an SUV that starts at $75,000 beginning January 2022.  
 

BMW makes 7 SUVs and has 2 more coming next year.  How does Rivian offer consumer choice with 1 SUV when the other guy has 9 of them?  

They're new. They can't initially drop a 6 vehicle lineup. 

The point was just that they offer two vehicles out of the gate, both of which are HUGE selling body styles here in the US, NOT a sedan. 

I guess, technically they have a work van as well. 

[smk4565]

47 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I think they are doing like Tesla and starting with higher trim models first but they have routinely stated that there would be sub-$100K models. 

And their pricing is with $7500 tax credit that not everyone even qualifies for.  If you try to build a Pure on their site it all of a sudden says starting at $77,400.  And I suspect that model is like the $35,000 Tesla Model 3 that never happened.  Let's see when they even deliver these things, because I bet they wait until Dream and Grand Tourings are sold out until they move on to anything under $100k. 

And really this is a mid-size sedan, before I thought it was more full size, but it is about the size of a 5-series.  So this is M5 money, I am sure it is good in a straight line, but an M5 CS can run a 2.5 0-60 also, probably whip the on a track, and probably has a much better built interior than the Tesla cast off engineering team at Lucid has come up with.

7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

They're new. They can't initially drop a 6 vehicle lineup. 

The point was just that they offer two vehicles out of the gate, both of which are HUGE selling body styles here in the US, NOT a sedan. 

Agreed that they went with popular body styles, 3 row SUV and pick up.  Good move there.  But in the time it takes them to get to 6 vehicles, VW group or GM could have 20 EV's.  So how does Rivian compete with that?  Would you rather a Rivian SUV or a Cadillac that has a big dealer network and GM parts support?  These are the challenges that Rivian and Lucid will fast.  Tesla was early and got ahead in the EV game, but all the big guys have billions upon billions of cash on hand to crank out new models and carpet bomb the market.

[surreal1272]

37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla started nearly 10 years ago, since then the Taurus, Impala, Lacrosse, XTS, CT6, MKS, Continental, Kia K900, Cadenza have died, the Avalon dies next year and I think Jag XJ does, Aston Martin Rapide is probably dead, if it isn’t who would even notice.  That’s like 10 big sedans that have died.  And Lucid picked full size sedan as the starting point??? No growth in that segment.

 

And I know Rivian has 2 models, but look how long it has taken Tesla to get to 4 models, and get the truck and Roadster going.  These big car companies can crank out multiple new models per year.

Apparently you didn’t know about Rivian because you said, earlier, that they only had one so that’s a lie right off the bat. 
 

About the sedans, duh. I’m aware of the market but funny how this level of criticism did not befall a certain German brand when they introduced their first real EV SEDAN. Point here being that sedans are only surviving in the luxury realm right now so this was an appropriate release seeing as how it has been in development for years. Your entire argument seems to skip of the facts mentioned above. 

34 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

They're new. They can't initially drop a 6 vehicle lineup. 

The point was just that they offer two vehicles out of the gate, both of which are HUGE selling body styles here in the US, NOT a sedan. 

I guess, technically they have a work van as well. 

Exactly. He bitches about one company NOT putting out an SUV and instead releasing a sedan and then bitches about the other only having one SUV like any new company has started with twelve when they first come out. Damn if you do and damn if you don’t with his bar moving. I swear he has Tesla stock. 

29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

but an M5 CS can run a 2.5 0-60 also, probably whip the on a track, and probably has a much better built interior than the Tesla cast off engineering team at Lucid has come up with.

Stick to the damn subject. The M5 is not competition for it. The Tesla Model S is and on paper, the Lucid spanks it and according to the review I posted above, it destroys it on every metric but what do I know. I just see the words of the people who actually DRIVE them as opposed to your constant bar moving tactics here, none of which involves any wheel time in the cars you mention. 

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, David said:

Tesla has serious trouble as we approach only days away from Rivian starting to ship their trucks. This ability just kills anything Tesla has even tried to do to date.

 

 

Sorry David...

But Tesla HAS got that covered

 

 

 

 

[David]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But will Rivian have sedans?  Multiple Crossovers?  You don’t stay in business on 1 model, look at how much the Toyota Tundra struggles because they basically have 1 body style.  And that is okay because Toyota has about 30 other models.  
 

All these startups will be small time and maybe not survive because they don’t have factory space or ability to put out a new product every year.  I think the goal of Rivian and Lucid is to get acquired by another car company, but I don’t think any car company is interested in buying them.

Hey BIFF,

If you actually paid attention you would not have ever POSTED THIS IGNORANT POST! 🙄

Rivian having Amazon and Ford as Investors, Amazon as a major Customer (PRIME DELIVERY VANS) and not 1, 2 or 3 but 6 new models in development proven by the following:

Trademark Filings Hint at Six New Rivian Models | The Drive

I did my own Free Form Search at: Trademark Electronic Search System (TESS) (uspto.gov) "RIVIAN" pulls up all the current fillings of which the company has been very busy and you can see the future that is coming.

 

Trademark Electronic Search System (TESS) (uspto.gov)

Report: Rivian plans six new models by 2025 (greencarreports.com)

Rivian Car Models List | Complete List of All Rivian Models

Rivian To Launch Three More Models by 2024 | Rivian Forum – Rivian R1T & R1S News, Pricing & Order... (rivianownersforum.com)

On top of this is the clear captures of an Extended Cab truck to go with the Crew Cab truck and other models.

Rivian test footage hints at possible extended cab R1T - Electrek

We then have the recent interviews by Forbes with CEO and Founder RJ and he clearly states more models are on the way.

Heavily Funded Electric Truckmaker Rivian Plans IPO With Confidential SEC Filing (forbes.com)

On top of this was even back in the interview Forbes did in Feb 2020, RJ talked about an expanded Portfolio.

Elon Musk’s New Nemesis: Rivian Founder R.J. Scaringe Has A $3 Billion War Chest And Tesla In His Headlights (forbes.com)

A moment in time at Feb 2020 comparison:

End result is that Rivian is NOT LOOKING TO BE BOUGHT UP, but a well funded, superior engineered Electric Auto Company that will move beyond Tesla. 

Credit to Tesla for getting this and battery tech going, but they have sat in many ways on moving forward with what the public wants and Rivian I can see surpassing Tesla especially once an IPO goes out and they get an even bigger war chest to expand the company.

RJ is Smarter than Musk!

[David]

33 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Sorry David...

But Tesla HAS got that covered

 

 

 

 

This goes in the same category of NOT buying a used auto from Canada or Midwest to east coast for me due to the hard corrosive salty winters.

Tesla never engineered their auto's for going through deep water unlike Rivian. I would NOT want one of these used as they are not sealed for it. 

Just because a person drive through water and the auto at that time continues to operate does not mean it was engineered for it.

I know many people would drive and bounce their VW bug through deep water, and the auto was still running, but that does not mean it was properly engineered for it. 

Rivian did, I have yet to see anything from Tesla that confirms they can drive through deep water with no problems or leaking inside the cab.

All these videos show is people driving their car in dangerous deep waters that for sure would stall out an ICE car. Yes the third & Fourth video says that in China they take the Model 3 and Tesla Y and test it via 2ft of water, but that is for China and nothing about the US market. Nor does Tesla talk about being able to go through deep water.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, David said:

I would NOT want one of these used as they are not sealed for it. 

Yes they are...

[smk4565]

The Lucid Air might turn out to be a fantastic car, Rivian might build some great trucks.  But if I had to bed on Toyota, VW and GM, or Lucid and Rivian, I would bet on the big guys.  Because are Lucid and Rivian ever going to make $25-45k vehicles to take on Toyota, Chevy, Honda, Kia, etc?  Or are their plan to stay in the luxury segment and compete with Porsche, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus?  Because in the luxury segment, brand name and image matters, and if you ask 100 people on the street would you rather have a Mercedes or a Lucid Air, 99 are going to say "what the hell is a Lucid Air?"  

I think the competition is great, it will push everyone else to make better cars.  So I am glad Lucid and Rivian and these other guys are here.  

[oldshurst442]

11 minutes ago, David said:

I know many people would drive and bounce their VW bug through deep water, and the auto was still running, but that does not mean it was properly engineered for it. 

Actually...it was

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Schwimmwagen

 

Class	Military vehicle
Body style	4-door utility roadster
Layout	RR layout
Platform	VW Type 1 Kdf-Wagen
Related	VW 87 Kommandeurswagen VW 166 Schwimmwagen VW 276 Schlepperfahrzeug

VW Type 1 Kdf-Wagen

 

 

 

VW 166 Schwimmwagen

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by oldshurst442

[David]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Lucid Air might turn out to be a fantastic car, Rivian might build some great trucks.  But if I had to bed on Toyota, VW and GM, or Lucid and Rivian, I would bet on the big guys.  Because are Lucid and Rivian ever going to make $25-45k vehicles to take on Toyota, Chevy, Honda, Kia, etc?  Or are their plan to stay in the luxury segment and compete with Porsche, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus?  Because in the luxury segment, brand name and image matters, and if you ask 100 people on the street would you rather have a Mercedes or a Lucid Air, 99 are going to say "what the hell is a Lucid Air?"  

I think the competition is great, it will push everyone else to make better cars.  So I am glad Lucid and Rivian and these other guys are here.  

Interesting how you dropped Tesla from this list of auto companies you would bet on. 

[oldshurst442]

What you are worried about is NOT whether its sealed or not...

20 minutes ago, David said:

This goes in the same category of NOT buying a used auto from Canada or Midwest to east coast for me due to the hard corrosive salty winters.  Tesla never engineered their auto's for going through deep water unlike Rivian. I would NOT want one of these used as they are not sealed for it. 

What you are worried about is whether proper anti-corrosive measures are adequate on the WHOLE body and undercarriage regardless if the Tesla or VW Bug is sealed or not.  

Rivian...

Do we know if they are properly protected against the rusting that we see in some parts of North America?

I know the Tesla Model S is ALUMINIUM.   Aluminium has its own corrosion worries, but bubbling rust to create holes in the metal is NOT one of them.

The Model 3?

All Teslas are sealed.  Actually, ALL EVs are sealed...

 for the battery and fragile electronics that go with the battery tech...

Regardless, its the proper anti-rust measures that count more so than if the vehicle in question, any vehicle, is sealed...  

Japanese imports of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s all were RUST buckets... 

Mazdas TODAY corrode JUST by looking at them...

Edited August 30, 2021 by oldshurst442