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Will Competition Destroy Tesla?


David

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10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Worth it for the growth rate they have, up 50% last year (when the industry overall was down 16%) and up 54% this year.  

I have three words for that.

Non-sustainable  

Business

Model

 

i.e.—Making zero profit on your actual product for more than a decade is not a sustainable business model long term. Overinflated stocks do not a successful company make so can we just stop the wash, rinse, repeat nature of your defense of them that clearly ignores very important facts like that?

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Tesla DEATH CROSS has appeared, not since February 28th 2019 was the last death cross and the stock dropped 44% before rebuilding to it's high on Jan 26th 2021 @ $883.09 and is now trading at $629.53 currently today. To NOT go into a death cross, the stock would have to close up 12% today at $729.00.

Death cross is something that is closely watched by wall street as it is indicative of losses to come and as happened in 2019, major losses happened before the start of the current climb at the end of 2019.

With factory delays in Germany and Texas, Major recall of all TESLA Auto's built in China for both China and Europe markets on top of the loss of half a billion dollars in carbon credit sales quarterly, Tesla appears to be lined up for a major drop and extended loses. The roughly $20 billion in the bank could disappear by the end of this year.

A Tesla ‘death cross’ has appeared, for the first time in more than 2 years - MarketWatch

On the other Front, GM just got a major boost from wall street as it is seen as a major disruptor with their short and long term plan for becoming an EV only company finally capitalizing on the amount of R&D GM has done over the last number of decades in technology. GM is a far better investment than Tesla right now.

GM stock jumps after Wedbush analyst calls it a ‘disruptive technology play’ - MarketWatch

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Then you have the biggest bull on Tesla saying that GM is the place to invest money.

Tesla bull calls this auto giant’s $35 billion electric strategy a ‘renaissance’ and says the stock could soar - MarketWatch

Then you have the Stellantis EV Day yesterday that shows them having trucks, suvs and cars out by 2024 that are pure electric such as Dodges eMuscle cars.

Might be a good thing that Musk is living in a little home as he might be hurting more than anyone knows with how strong Detroit's auto companies are coming on with BEVs.

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Question is; will investors totally disregard all fundamentals and buy these electric-committed OEMs like they did with Tesla, or will they hang back (esp in light of Tesla's current and near-future gloomy stock outlook) and wait to see if anyone makes a strong & consistant profit on electrics?

It's illogical to assume Tesla is going to take a nosedive and the other OEMs are somehow going to make a profit inline with their best recent years'. 

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Seems Tesla is going to have to have some focus time from the CEO, space needs to take the back seat after FORD Mustang MACH-E takes top spot in Car and Drivers Electric Vehicle of the Year Award 2021.

Mustang Mach-E Takes Top Spot in Car and Driver’s Inaugural Electric Vehicle of the Year Award 2021 | Ford Media Center

Contenders: Audi e-tron, Kia Niro, Nissan Leaf Plus, Polestar 2, Porsche Taycan 4S PBP, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Tesla Model S Long Range Plus, Tesla Model Y Performance, Volkswagen ID.4 and Volvo XC40 Recharge. Car and Driver employed instrumented testing, subjective evaluation and side-by-side comparison in both practicality and entertainment value.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Seems this is starting to hit home as a reviewer for UK that was invited to test drive the Ioniq 5 from Korea is saying hold off on ordering the Tesla 3 till you test drive the Ioniq 5. Tesla Y is not available in the UK as to why the person compares it to the Tesla 3, but clearly it is equal on price, but gives so much more.

 

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The Best or Nothing at all seems to be a Failure for Mercedes as the first of the EQS test drives come in and where there are some success in certain areas, there is just as many failures and as pointed out in the review, it would appear that Mercedes is playing massive catch up to other automakers and especially Tesla. For a German company that was supposed to be building a competitor that would beat the Tesla S, I have to say that Mercedes has failed.

First drive review: 2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS fuses electric-car wizardry with S-Class serenity (greencarreports.com)

No FRUNK, In fact there seems to be many areas that Mercedes does not want anyone to get access too, just supposed to drive it and take it to Mercedes when you need work done it would appear. This review makes me wonder if Mercedes will ever be able to catch up to Tesla? 🤔

Do not get me wrong there are reviewers that drink the Koolaid and no matter how far behind Tesla, they still think Mercedes is the best.

2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS First Drive Review: Funky New Luxury (motor1.com)

Here are additional reviews that upon looking at them, I have to say, Mercedes S class is a second place uber luxury car that does not totally deliver on being the Best or nothing! It seems to be a half-way also ran.

Mercedes-Benz EQS First Drive Test | Mercedes-Benz Worldwide (mercedes-world.com)

2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS First Drive Review: An EV like nothing else - SlashGear

2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS first drive review: Defining a segment - Roadshow (cnet.com)

First review Mercedes EQS 450+: Is Mercedes EQS an S-Class electric? (mercedesblog.com)

Mercedes EQS first drive: S-Class luxury in an EV (msn.com)

Mercedes EQS first drive: S-Class luxury in an EV | Engadget

 

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@David I will say this. Performance aside, most reviews spoke highly of the luxury component and the interior of the EQS but as a luxury maker, that's the way a Benz should be. It's downfall is less than stellar performance numbers (again, we have heard non-stop crowing about Tesla's 0-60 numbers as the be all, end all so let's see if it's a big deal for a $100K Benz) and looking like a ten year old jellybean from VW.

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12 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

@David I will say this. Performance aside, most reviews spoke highly of the luxury component and the interior of the EQS but as a luxury maker, that's the way a Benz should be. It's downfall is less than stellar performance numbers (again, we have heard non-stop crowing about Tesla's 0-60 numbers as the be all, end all so let's see if it's a big deal for a $100K Benz) and looking like a ten year old jellybean from VW.

So true, when you have a forum member that constantly crows about the 0 to 60 number being the magic and then the company that is supposed to be the standard bearer fails to deliver on that, it does make one go H'mmmmmmmmmm! 🤔

I agree with you that there are many solid comments on the interior and the serene ride. Was surprised to see that you get a very much pedestrian dash in the EQS 450 compared to the top of the line 580. 

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9 hours ago, balthazar said:

What does the '450' and '550' stand for/mean?

Sorry, meant to say the 450 versus 580. 450 is RWD only with lower luxury packages, 580 is AWD with higher luxury packages and larger battery options.

Mercedes-Benz EQS Enters Production, More Specs Revealed (insideevs.com)

Mercedes-Benz EQS spces:

  • up to 770 km (479 miles) of WLTP range
  • two battery versions:
    107.8 kWh of usable battery capacity (12 modules, about 9 kWh each)
    90 kWh of usable battery capacity (10 modules)
    CATL lithium-ion cells (pouch cells or hard-case/prismatic cells), NCM 811 chemistry
    400-volt architecture (396 V nominal)
  • 0-100 km/h (62 mph):
    EQS 450+ RWD: 6.2 seconds
    EQS 580 4MATIC AWD: 4.3 seconds
  • top speed of 210 km/h (131 mph)
  • powertrain options:
    EQS 450+ rear-wheel drive (single motor): 245 kW and 568 Nm
    EQS 580 4MATIC all-wheel drive (dual motor): 385 kW (255 kW rear and 135 kW front) and 855 Nm
    performance version: 560 kW in the future
    both motors are permanently excited synchronous motors (PSM)
    peak regenerative brake up to 290 kW (580 4MATIC) or 186 kW (450+)
  • AC charging (on-board): three-phase 11 kW standard and 22 kW option (Europe)
    Charging time (107.8 kWh): 5 hours at 22 kW AC, 10 hours at 11 kW AC
  • DC fast charging: up to 200 kW;
    10-80% SOC in 31 minutes
    up to 280-300 km (174-186 miles) of WLTP range to be replenished in just 15 minutes
    Plug & Charge feature
  • Length/width/height: 5216/1926/1512
    Length/width/height (USA): 5265/1926/1513
  • Cd value starting from 0.20 (EQS 450+); 0.209 (EQS 580 4MATIC)
  • Boot capacity, VDA: 610-1770 L
  • Weight in roadworthy condition: 2480 kg (EQS 450+); 2585 kg (EQS 580 4MATIC)
    Payload: 465-545 kg (EQS 450+); 475-550 kg (EQS 580 4MATIC)
    Perm. gross vehicle weight: 2945-3025 kg (EQS 450+); 3060-3135 (EQS 580 4MATIC)
  • EVA platform

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7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

What do the names mean?

That is an excellent question. 

Seems there web site is useless as it does not cover what the names mean and there seems to be no relation of the number to Torque or HP.

2022 EQS Sedan | Future Vehicles | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com)

I have looked through many websites and still no info on what the names mean. I did get from this story that the 450+ which is what America gets means the + is the larger battery pack, but we only get the largest battery pack, where in Europe and the Asian rim they can get a smaller 90 kW battery pack. So they will have a 450 or 450+ models. We just get 450+.

2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS First Drive Review: Funky New Luxury (motor1.com)

Even on their global web site there is no clear answer as to what the numbers mean on any of their EQ products.

The new all-electric EQS. (mercedes-benz.com)

Even the Daimler web site FAILS to explain what the numbers mean.

The EQS: The first electric vehicle in the luxury class | Daimler

Sorry, wish I knew.

@smk4565 Do you have an actual link to explain what the EQS 450 and 580 mean?

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Seems in Tesla quarterly update on the company, they never stated it as delayed, but after multiple same questions on when will the Cyber truck start production, the only answer from Musk was "It will go into production after we start production of the Model Y at the Texas plant by the end of the year." 

Yes this means the work on Cyber truck test mules to production will happen later in 2022 indicating that they will start deliveries in 2023 way behind Rivian, Ford and GM.

Tesla all but confirms Cybertruck production delay until 2022 (electrek.co)

Quote from the Quarterly conference call:

Lars Moravy, vice president of vehicle engineering at Tesla, responded instead:

 

 

“Cybertruck is at a stage where we finished basic engineering of the architecture of the vehicle. With the Cybertruck, we are redefining how a vehicle is being made. As Elon said, it carries much of the structural pack and large casting design of the Model Y being built in Berlin and Austin. Obviously, those take priority over the Cybertruck, but we are moving into the beta phases of Cybertruck later this year and we will be looking to ramp up production at Giga Texas after Model Y is up and running.”

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13 hours ago, David said:

That is an excellent question. 

Seems there web site is useless as it does not cover what the names mean and there seems to be no relation of the number to Torque or HP.

2022 EQS Sedan | Future Vehicles | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com)

I have looked through many websites and still no info on what the names mean. I did get from this story that the 450+ which is what America gets means the + is the larger battery pack, but we only get the largest battery pack, where in Europe and the Asian rim they can get a smaller 90 kW battery pack. So they will have a 450 or 450+ models. We just get 450+.

2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS First Drive Review: Funky New Luxury (motor1.com)

Even on their global web site there is no clear answer as to what the numbers mean on any of their EQ products.

The new all-electric EQS. (mercedes-benz.com)

Even the Daimler web site FAILS to explain what the numbers mean.

The EQS: The first electric vehicle in the luxury class | Daimler

Sorry, wish I knew.

@smk4565 Do you have an actual link to explain what the EQS 450 and 580 mean?

They don't mean anything.  They make an S450 and S580, so it was just easier to call the EQS 450 and 580.  Essentially the 450 is the inline six equivalent and the 580 is the V8 performance equivalent.  Although I thought 580 was always dumb, I don't know why they didn't just stay with 550 or even 560 since that was a displacement badge of their past. 

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On 7/26/2021 at 11:05 AM, surreal1272 said:

@David I will say this. Performance aside, most reviews spoke highly of the luxury component and the interior of the EQS but as a luxury maker, that's the way a Benz should be. It's downfall is less than stellar performance numbers (again, we have heard non-stop crowing about Tesla's 0-60 numbers as the be all, end all so let's see if it's a big deal for a $100K Benz) and looking like a ten year old jellybean from VW.

There is going to be an AMG version, and EQS is a much bigger car than the Model S.  EQE will have an AMG version and I would suspect be a stronger performance, much like how an E63 is faster than an S63 because same powertrain and big weight/size difference between them.  

It is quite possible too that nothing will beat the Model S Plaid in a straight line, a $700,000 Ferrari ST90 Stradale can't even beat it in a quarter mile.  I mean AMG One will surely beat the Plaid, but I don't see any other sedans or even sub $1 million sports cars doing it.

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3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

There is going to be an AMG version, and EQS is a much bigger car than the Model S.  EQE will have an AMG version and I would suspect be a stronger performance, much like how an E63 is faster than an S63 because same powertrain and big weight/size difference between them.  

It is quite possible too that nothing will beat the Model S Plaid in a straight line, a $700,000 Ferrari ST90 Stradale can't even beat it in a quarter mile.  I mean AMG One will surely beat the Plaid, but I don't see any other sedans or even sub $1 million sports cars doing it.

But according to you, those kind of 0-60 numbers aren't good enough for everyone else so thanks for confirming the exception being Benz because there is "going to be" a supposed faster version. BTW, it is not jouster the Plaid S that dusts that Benz. It's pretty much every trim of the Model S doing that (they all do better than 3 seconds). Just interesting to see the excuses granted to one but not the other. 

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4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't know why they didn't just stay with 550 or even 560 since that was a displacement badge of their past.

Those haven't been "displacement" badges in a decade; s550 has been an 's470' since 2012. So they haven't meant anything in a while, and they mean even less going forward.

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

EQS is a much bigger car than the Model S.

It's not that much larger, but it's a half ton fatter...

Edited by balthazar
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32 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Those haven't been "displacement" badges in a decade; s550 has been an 's470' since 2012. So they haven't meant anything in a while, and they mean even less going forward.

It's not that much larger, but it's a half ton fatter...

Car 1 dimensions:  196" L x 77" W x 57" tall

Car 2 dimensions: 207" L x  76" W x 60" tall

This is a bigger size gap than existed between Cadillac CTS and CT6.

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

But according to you, those kind of 0-60 numbers aren't good enough for everyone else so thanks for confirming the exception being Benz because there is "going to be" a supposed faster version. BTW, it is not jouster the Plaid S that dusts that Benz. It's pretty much every trim of the Model S doing that (they all do better than 3 seconds). Just interesting to see the excuses granted to one but not the other. 

AMG better have some serious performance in the works, and not just on EQS, but even more so on EQE that will be the more performance oriented sedan.  It's possible that no one can beat Tesla performance, so Mercedes or anyone else will have to beat them in other ways.

Mercedes plans to convert the whole line to EV, not every Mercedes is an AMG speed demon, only like 10-15% are AMG, the bulk of their customers are coming for luxury first.  The AMG cars are the ones that will have to match Tesla's performance.

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I am not sure that Mercedes and AMG have got the EV technology figured out yet...

But I do have to admit that Mercedes does know how to do a luxury EV interior right! 

2022 NEW Mercedes EQS Full Interior Walkaround! Mercedes Benz EQS Interior  Ambiente - YouTube

And it also has a lot to do with the bluish ambient lighting both on the dash from driver to passenger and on the bottom areas of the cabin and in the little open storage compartments underneath the central console and doors and in the footwells. 

Very elegant for a neo luxury EV interior. 

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22 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I sense some doubt in those chosen words of yours and your subsequent sentences...

 

AMG had the Nurburgring record for SUV, until the Urus beat them, they have the wagon and 4 door car records still, and they are half a second behind a specialty equipped Porsche for overall.  Mercedes-AMG have 7 consecutive F1 titles.  These people know performance, so I am confident they'll have the performance they need.  I also recognize that Tesla might be a more formidable competitor than Audi or BMW have been.  

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