oldshurst442

Id like to add: 1. Cadillac chasing BMW was NOT a good idea. At first it was. In the 1990s. But they went about the chasing the wrong way. The FWD STS and Eldorado were good cars. Wrong wheel drive though. In those days, RWD was a must. Torque steer was not. 2. Cadillac saw that FWD was a losing battle so they tried the Cadillac that zigs angle. Right idea, shytty execution. The Opel Omega that would later become the Pontiac GTO should give you an idea how bad of an idea the Opel Omega was. It was clear as water that the Opel Omega was better suited as a Pontiac than a Cadillac. Which leads us to much bigger problem that seems to be repetitive for Cadillac the last 30 years or so 3. Shytty executions that have impacted the North American psyche about Cadillac's relevance in the luxury world and how the general public view Cadillac... a. Cimarron b. Allante c. Catera d. XLR e. ELR f. RWD STS g. canceling of STS to CTS and introduction to ATS h. CT6 From a to h. All those models coulda, shoulda been game changers. Cadillac drop the ball big time on them. Always some sort of lethal (in terms of potential customer acceptance of them) miscalculation. Each of them had a bad judgement call that was unique to only that model. But it was such a bad judgement call that forced the cancellation of that model after a short production run. (This is what Suave was saying) 4. Never having the right product at the right time, always chasing the trends and never in the forefront of change. 5. Still chasing BMW when that ship has sailed. Even BMW stopped being BMW a decade ago. Sure BMW has some "M" models that evoke some sort of ultimate driving experience, but that ship has ultimately sailed. That could be because BMW has also dropped the ball. Be as it may, a FWD Seville Touring Sedan and Eldorado could really be what Cadillac needs to sell more sedans and let us not forget a land yacht CT6 named Deville or Fleetwood... It seems that Cadillac is not realizing that their #1 seller, and actual current icon the world is salivating on, the Escalade, is exactly what the Fleetwood and other Cadillac land yachts were all about, hence why a FWD Seville Touring Sedan with real Cadillac luxury, not Cimarron luxury, could be their ticket to success...WITH A REAL NAME!!! People KNOW what an Escalade is and people KNOW ITS A CADILLAC! Supposedly, that is what alphanumerics are for. For BRAND recognition rather than specific model admiration. The brand being exposed and revered more than the model itself. Yet the Escalade, with a REAL name does both...GO FIGURE!!! #5 is more of an incoherent rant, but there is some truth in there somewhere too...

There is a new remix version. I like it. But the originals alsways seem best. Ive been on an Elvis binge as of late. This is but a sample.

I also just realized that the Alfa Romeo is the only one with a real name. And I also just realized that Alpha Romeo is rich in historic....alphanumerics. Like every brand mentioned here...with the exception of...CADILLAC. Whatever that means. I aint implying anything. Other than... For Pete's sake Cadiilac, go back to actual names already!!!

True!

That Cadillac pic is just a rendering... The Alfa Romeo beats all of them in one category though. I do not know how reliable it may be, but Id buy the Guilia Quadrifoglio over the others JUST for the sounds it makes. I do think the Infinity has the nicest looks and silhouettes of all of them. (Didnt Infinity name their cars "G"...before Johan took over?) (And now "G" belongs to Genesis?) (What a strange automotive world we live in today!!!)

I like the sounds the Quadrifoglio makes. The V6 on this is awesome. Ferrari engine tuners really know how to make an engine sing. The Guilia's silhouette has a lot in common with a BMW 3 Series. And it does not help the situation when BMW 3 Series cars have looked the same since about 10 years now. This might explain some of the blandness. I do think the Guilia is sexy enough, but maybe the glorious sounds of its V6 have me blinded with how sexy it might really be in the looks department.

Yeah, I do know you quite well, Balthy. Fom all the guys Ive talked to on automotive forums, and there has been plenty, you Balthy, are a top 5 poster for me on the level of respect I have for you. Although it did not seem that way the way I responded to you the last couple of times, that was me just being me...sometimes goofy. Sometimes funny. Sometimes to the direct and to the point. And yes, I too am a fact-based guy. The thing is, perception is not vapor when perception rules how a society thinks and lives their lives ( the overly PC world we currently live in ) , how we buy products to consume and eat (veganism is the new fad that is gaining a lot of steam and well, the basis of this thread...like you said...people think Toyotas are great while GM cars are crap...its a reality that exists) and elects their leaders (Trump, Brexit, in Quebec the liberal leadership of 4 years that saw Quebec actually get back in the black only to elect a pseudo separatist party but they do not want to push that....because Quebecois do not want that, but just in case...) CT6s do not sell well. Continentals even less. Im not concerned how many CT6s sell. But I am concerned at the money GM spent on it though...only to cancel it. Wrong assumption that the CT6 is canceled? Quite possible. But the leaders of GM are going full steam ahead with...EVs. (pun intended even if the pun is about differing energies) What should be concerning you, Balthy, with GM, is that GM is willing to ditch a model with mediocre sales for a product that will, according to you even, will be selling less as EVs are what, not even 1% of total auto sales in the US? GM it seems, is having more faith in EVs than they do for the CT6? Im a believer in EV cars being the future faster than most people think it will be and yet, even I do not think that ditching the CT6 is a smart idea as even I think EVs are not gonna replace the ICE cars tomorrow. In other words, I do not think an EV Cadillac will be more successful in the market place than a CT6. Cadillac's marketing is horrid. Cadillac's marketing wont convince Telsa buyers to buy an EV Cadillac...

And again, I agree with this part of your post 100000000% And in reality, if you read my previous posts, if you read between the lines, I am saying EXACTLY that... The difference is that in your post, you are defending GM and not mentioning the reasons why all these publications cater to the hatred of American cars. I mentioned the reasons why. Ill go further though, in saying why these publications cater to the hatred. Advertising dollars that the foreign makes paid just for them to belittle American cars... And all that fueled the negative stigma that the Big 3 STILL have to endure today. However, this negative stigma does not seem to have spilled over to the CUVs and SUVs. Maybe, finally, the hatred of the American automobile is finally gone. With the near death of the car in the USA, and the CUV/SUV reality we have today, that negative stigma gets put to rest.

I agree with this 10000000% The problem is guys, this negative stigma that American cars have is also 10000000000% real. You asked me a question Casa. Compared to whom were these American cars crap/junk? To us , Casa. To us! Just because Japanese cars and German cars were shyttier than American cars, then and now, does not mean that the Big 3, (yes the Big 3, because THAT is what it used to be..) that they should have built shytty x-platfom cars (The Citation II and its siblings, The Vega, The Pinto, the Cadillac Cimarron, (Cadillac deserved better that that...yes, it was no different than a BMW 3 Series, yet did Cadillac need to stoop that low to have a car in everybody's garage, and even if the answer is yes, did it have to be on the J platform? And if yes to that too, did it have to be a blatant copy paste of the Cavalier?) Badge engineering was not the bad part of GM, but what was was the countless of leaking head gaskets of several engines...The DOHC 3.4, the OHV 3.4, the Quad 4, the Northstar... I have been on both sides of this argument, Casa. We've never really butted heads, here or over at MTForums, because we have been on the same page. We do have the same opinion on this matter. From hating self-hating Americans that will never seem to give American cars or anything built in America a fair chance (unless its a foreign based company that builds here) to trolls that hate on American cars just because. We also agree that German cars and Japanese cars are probably, throughout history, have had a WORSE record of quality and reliability than American cars. Where we differ is that I will NOT defend GM/Ford/Chryco for the times that they did build crap...as you do. And rightfully so that you defend them. It is YOUR (and mine-Canada) country's industry!!! The Japanese people and the German people and the Chinese now, look at their car industry with pride and defend feverishly. But on the other hand, these self hating Americans also have a right to hate on the Big 3. For the Big 3 did take their loyalty they once had, and just took that for granted. Maybe they should start defending it now though... And this is where we are in this thread.

We are in an automotive forum... Not a courtroom...anything said in here is over the top and anecdotal...so please spare me the semantic arguments... Declining market share proves my over the top statements. Anecdotal discussions are part of automotive forums...and they are real...they reflect kinda how society flows. isnt that how Donald Trump got elected? By him saying over the top things by him even using anecdotal slogans? And YES...I AGREE WITH YOU!!! I said that...but you have a hard time understanding what PERCEIVED means... And yes...the 1970s was such a long time age, yet Cadillac has not shed the negative stigma surrounding its cars...Lincoln neither. Their SUVs sell, but people will not touch their cars... "Nobody" buys their cars...(absolute statement) But the thing is, CT6 sales are low, that GM is canceling it...to boot, the Continental is going away too... Yet you would prefer to challenge me on the "nobody buys the CT6" statement because there has been people to buy the phoquiking thing, yet you glaze over the reality of said absolute statement. An over the top statement that deals in an absolute, even if its not 100% accurate, does not make it a false statement... Go ahead...challenge me on the "the whole planet, Americans included, think that American cars are garbage" and pat yourself on your back for finding just one soul that does not think that American cars are crap...making my statement false??? The reality of it all is that the Malibu is behind in sales from the Camry, Accord, Altima. I aint sure if the Sonata and Optima are behind it. The Cruze, the Focus, the Fiesta and the Spark are being canceled because the sales that Ford and GM wants from are not there. Yet the Corolla and Civic sell just fine in a world of CUV and SUV sales... Yup...congrats to you for proving me wrong about my absolute statement. (SARCASM)

I never get tired of wood either. I always wake up in the morning with one.

Stop with the semantic bullsit arguments...but Ill give you one. But you could start with looking what sedans are no.1 in sales in the US market.... As far as my world opinion goes... I went to Greece in 2001. Talked to many local yokels about cars...saw many tourists from around the world...with a couple of them, we engaged in world politics and...cars... Went to Greece in 2003. Same thing. Went to Greece 15 years later...same thing... And you know what? American automobiles with several people, in Greece, from Greece, Italy, France, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Egypt, Germany., England..did not have nice things to say about American cars...in 2001, in 2003 and 15 years later in 2018 Yes. A small sample size. A very small sample size. From people that never really saw an American automobile in their lives....not even as a Hot Wheels model. But...still does not change the fact that people just do not like American cars and they think that they are garbage. Save for the Mustang, Corvette and old skool Cadillacs And to some, even the Mustang, Corvette and old skool Cadillacs are garbage as well... Its OK if you do not believe me. I aint here trying to convince you otherwise either. I do not really care. And I really do think the Japanese cars in the 1960s and 1970s were the worst crap ever. American cars get shat on for far less than what German cars were. But it is what it is... And here you are...arguing with me, yet Cadillac is killing off their halo car/not their halo car, but just you wait and see what we got in store for you for this non-halo car and they are killing it just after 2 or 3 years on the market...because yeah...Americans just loooooove American cars... After 3 decades of Cadillac promising us a halo sedan to compete with the Germans...after billions spent...from the Cadillac that Zigs to Arts and Science to Johan...because...all because you want to discredit me and you dont wanna believe that Americans and the whole world just thinks that American cars suck...(with the exemption of the Chinese...) So yeah...you got me...not the whole planet...1.386 billion Chinese think that American cars arwe OK. 7.7 billion people on the planet....that would be 20-25%% of the world that think that American cars are OK...so yeah...you got me there!!!

You live in a fantasy world, Balthy... A little pop culture for you...from 1984. A comedy. But the sentiment is there... And if you do not think people in America, or the whole world does not view American cars as garbage...well...like I said...you may be living in a bubble...

You could deny all you want...(and if you read my post correctly, Im in agreement with you) but it still does not change the fact that Americans PERCEIVE...scratch that...the WHOLE planet...PERCEIVES that American cars are garbage... This perception has festered itself in the 1980s...and never really went away. To. This. Day.

I sympathize with this... Yet...the North American market is in fact a free market system. The North American way does not allow for monopolies...(lets leave the obvious exceptions as this discussion will go in another direction. Lets just keep it simple and talk about in theory...) The North American people want and demand choice... Let us be honest...General Motors, Ford and Chryco really did take advantage of the North American people. Let us be honest. The Big 3 over the century of building cars really did some serious backstabbing to their own, really cheated the masses with piss poor quality products, let their dealership network become stealerships, screw over their workers...even Henry Ford who was once a God for his workers ended up being a Devil... Over a century of this. And especially building crap cars in the mid 1970s all the way to, let us be honest...up until 2008...(There was never a good reason for the Northstar V8 to be have been finally fixed of its problems in the mid 2000s when they GM knew what the problems were in the mid 1990s. GM could blame the consumer for crappy servicing, but ultimately, GM knew better... And that is just with one problem of many. In another thread, the one where I went bat shyte crazy, there was talk about GM's screwey key ignition problems. Yes. Yes. Foreign manufacturers have done the same. Hyundai...that thread is about Hyundais... What I find deplorable though, is that the foreign makes also have built crap. In their home markets too. But those folk are proud of their industry as where Americans lost that pride. (Canadians too lost that pride for American cars). What I find deplorable is that Americans continue to self hate... BUT I DO NOT BLAME THEM!!! So...we find our situation that we are in....but make no mistake about it. GM did that to themselves... About closing down these 5 North American plants. This is more of a middle finger salute to Donald Trump than it is to American and Canadian workers. But its these 18 000 workers that ultimately get it up the ass... The next step is this: Do we stop buying GM vehicles completely? Tough call...maybe not a good choice. So how does GM convince the American and Canadian buying public that GM cares? How does GM mend the pain of building shytyy cars in the past and how does GM build cars in North America without screwing its worker while making profits... Mexico...you know, its close to slave labour...how does a politician and a CEO take care of that problem without having to have factories in the US leave for Mexico all in the while a politician trying to balance trade equality and wanting the best for its workers and its own factories and its own industry? Alls I could tell you is good luck in convincing the person who bought 3 Toyota Corollas or 3 Honda Civics in his lifetime, and those Japanese imports did succeed in getting 300 000 reliable miles to buy an American Ford Tempo or Chevy Citation or Pontiac Grand Prix DOHC 3.4 with head gasket problems or transmission failures that their neighbors always bitched about...or my wife's Fusion getting yet another recall on it...I got this new recall in the fall. Sure Ford will fix it, free, but this is how Ford loses money on the Fusion. And if this was before 2009, I would be left with the repair bill to fix it. So...the Big 3 CONTINUE to phoque around with reliability... I know I know....Honda and Toyota also have recalls and their reliability is also questionable. But...you cannot deny that a Civic or Corolla, perception or otherwise, common knowledge or myth, a Honda Civic and a Toyota Corolla are built like tanks and will never let down their owners... Try saying that about a domestic car (not truck) and see who DOESNT laugh at you...

Oh yeah, I forgot about the CT4. I assumed (wrongfully) when I read that Cadillac is killing the CT6 that they were killing off all other sedans in their line-up too. Journalists sometimes miss the point. Several articles mention that the ATS and CTS are also phased out. What they fail to mention is that the CTS and CT6 will morph into the CT5. And the ATS will be the CT4. I just forgot about the CT4.... So...wouldnt it be a grand idea for the CT4, CT5 and possibly the Camaro have an I6? Yes it would, but highly unlikely...like I said, GM's corporate 6 cylinder is the high value 3.6. Cadillac's signature 6 cylinder is the 3.0liter. As far as the Atlas goes, I wondered why they never tried to re-work it to put it in the Cadillac CTS and RWD STS. It had all the modern tech of the time. All for the year 2002. 1. DOHC (for the folks that consider DOHC modern) 2. Aluminium block and heads (this was in 2002 and mass produced to get costs down in several popular mid-sized SUV offerings. Along with their mid-sized pick-up truck siblings) 3. Engineered to be scaled down. There was the I4, I5 and the I6...the 4 and 5 cylinder versions were in the pick-up trucks. All shared components to further be cheaper to produce. 4. It had VVT. It was THE perfect engine to do battle with BMW for their new CTS... Lost opportunities? Over at FCA, at least FCA says the right things to get back to glory. And they do have some products that lend to the possibility of greatness. Its just too bad that Chrysler and Dodge do not seem to be part of that. Alfa Romeo, Maserati and then Fiat and Jeep. Too bad...

You dont click your fingers to get their attention either... The French are cool people. They just want you to respect them and their language and culture. Isnt that what we all want? They do not care if you speak English. But they do care if you try to speak French to them. THAT goes a long way with them. Especially if you choose to LIVE in the province. All these years, decades, Ive heard English Canada brow beat them because they want to preserve their language and heritage...in Quebec... Im soooooo happy to see and read and hear what some English speaking North Americans are saying about our current legal and illegal immigration affairs that I almost piss my pants laughing daily on what excuses I hear from them. Kinda like the shoe is on the other foot... Life's little ironies...

I saw the movie White Men Can't Jump for the first time. I was shocked to see some cool muscle cars in it... Chevelle Charger Olds Cutlass Convertible Pontiac Trans Am I was mildly entertained by the movie. very 1990s dialogue. Very 1990s premise. (DUH! Made in 1992) I enjoyed it but I have a feeling I enjoyed more because of the pleasant easter eggs that were these cars.

What would GM do with an inline 6? Im assuming an inline 6 would be for a RWD vehicle for obvious length issues that a modern FWD car that GM currently produces would not fit. The offerings are slim at GM for RWD going forward. I sympathize with your opinion here as I share your sentiment. However, I do not see where GM would be able to use it properly. GM did produce one a decade ago in their GMT360 mid-sized SUVs and back then I thought they would use that Atlas engine in more models. But they did not. And back then, they had more RWD offerings. The ATS and CTS will merge to become the CT5. GM has got the corporate 3.6 liter for RWD purposes. Cadillac uses this along with their superb 3.0 liter V6. Probably the CT5 will use the 3.0liter V6. The CT6 is going away. Both could have benefitted from an I6 but the 3.0 liter V6 is such a good engine. Its a new engine but the CT6 is going away ...so... Then we got the Camaro and Corvette. The Camaro uses the 3.6liter V6 while the Corvette does not. An I6 as a base engine for a Corvette, especially in the rumoured mid-engined C8 does seem intriguing, but I do not think the masses are ready for an I6 base engined Corvette just yet. Let them get used to a small displacement (for a Corvette) DOHC V8 in mid-engine behind the driver configuration first, then Chevrolet could try to sell an I6 base engined Vette... Camaro...now that intrigues me...but... THE engine to have in a Camaro IS a V8. As a middle offering, that would be cool, but an I6 engine in a Camaro SHOULD be the center piece, not playing second fiddle to a V8. Unless Chevy drops the V8 for an I6 in a Camaro...but are the Chevy/Camaro faithful ready for that? Kinda like the Vette situation... GM could put an I6 in their midsized pick-up trucks, like they did with the Atlas I6 in the SUV GMT360 platform. There must be a reason why GM discontinued the Atlas in one short generation. Because they could have used it elsewhere. Millions of R&D money squandered... In their fullsized pick-up trucks? Well, they have gone the way of putting 4 cylinders in them...so...there goes that idea... At least FCA has the Alfa Romeo Guilia, Maserati sedan and coupe, possibly the Levante SUV and then there is the possibility that a Charger and Challenger survive. FCA did say that a 'Cuda version of a Challenger is in the works for the next generation... In my opinion, FCA has more options for an I6 than does GM. It would be nice, but GM has dropped the ball in their product planning and are cutting some cars from their stable. Cadillac, from 3 RWD cars, they are going down to 1. No coupes either. That leaves the Alpha platform Camaro. And no word what platform the next generation Camaro will be on...

Exactly...This new Hemi aint a pure Hemi. And, the article does say that this inline 6 will have Ferrari designed heads. That there is the new marketing tag. Inline 6 by Ferrari. Or Ferrari derived inline 6. Like how Car and Driver sums up the Guilia V6. So...no HEMI...

Imma liking the idea of an Alfa Romeo Guilia with an inline 6. As much as their current 2.9 liter sounds fantastic, I could get down with an inline Ferrari version 6 very easily... I just hope some sort of Hellcat/Demon/Red Eye version HEMI survives and is offered in a vehicle over at FCA somewhere. As nice of an idea having an inline 6 in a Jeep GC may be, I do prefer the idea of a Hellcat GC a tad better. Especially when Im thinking that neither Dodge or Chrysler looks like they will be surviving this new FCA direction. I honestly do not think there will be another Charger or Challenger or 300 when these platforms finally get retired.

You could really never replace the Hemi. I aint talking about the numbers aspect. I am talking about the marketing aspect of the Hemi. One reason why this modern 20 year old platformed Challenger is selling is because of the Hemi moniker attached to it. Listen to the whole commercial...and observe all that is in it...all MOPARS possibly powered by a HEMI. These commercials did a lot for the MOPAR V8... You beat me to that idea by milliseconds!!!

Yup...that is what I do. jag-wahr and Bon-uh-vil. And when Pontiac used to exist and I was talking to Frenchies, I would say it in French...Bonn-veel (close enough) Chevrolet Cavalier would actually not be 'Cavaleer' for me, it would be the French way, because it actually is a French word...I cannot even spell it out the way it sounds in French, but Ill try, 'Cavalieeh' I love speaking French. Its such a nice romantic language. Not the Québec "redneck" jargon, but the normal Québec French. A nice eductaed Québec French accent is not snooty like a Parisienne accent. I hate that accent... Marseille French I love also. When Marseillaise girls speak it, I buckle at the knees. Ive met a couple. Good times...? ? As far as Impala goes... Its Imp-aa-la for me...

Yeah...but for now, 755 horsepower in a ZR1 is also keeping the Mopar Hellcat/Demon/Red-eye muscle guys at bay...like I said, the Vette is just as much a muscle car as it is a bonafide sportscar or GT car... And yes, a mid-engined Zora Vette will probably be a track monster. Rolls Royce and Bentley...yup, they got SUVs too now. The one beacon of light Cadillac has got is the Escalade. Aside from the 1950s and early 1960s when Cadillac had some models in the Rolls price range, the Eldorado was always Cadillac's image car. No Rolls Royce or Bentley ever took that away from Cadillac. The Bentayga and Cullinan could be pricier than the Escalade. I have a sneaky suspicion that the Escalade will always be the measuring stick...like how the Eldorado was back in the day. With the new 'Slade coming for 2020, let us see what Cadillac does with it. If it beats the Navigator in quality and looks, then the Escalade will continue to be the big daddy of SUVs. And while the 'Gator does indeed have a 3.5liter ecoboosted 6 under the hood and it sells on par with the 'Slade, and Cadillac retains all that what makes a 'Slade a 'Slade with a high displacement V8, then all the reason to believe the 'Slade is indeed the biggest and baddest. And yes, maybe Cadillac could go higher in price range with an SUV than the Escalade. But then again, the Cadillac that cost as much or more than a Rolls Royce in the 1950s was still named Eldorado...therefore if Cadillac wants to go 50 000 dollars more on a SUV, Escalade could/should be its name. We do agree with EVs!!!