oldshurst442

We are very close in age I believe. I was born in 1973. Anyhoo, for what Im about to assume... In Montreal by the time I was of driving age (17) in 1990...and even earlier as my friends did have older brothers....by that time which would be 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989...heck even as early as 1984...there were hardly any 1950s or 1960s rides available for sale. Early 1970s cars were starting to thin out too. And if there was, in very bad condition they were. Not road worthy at all for a high schooler to drive. Way beyond beater status. Rust and a lack of a keep, maintain and restore culture up here relegated old cars to be junked... This is also a sad story... You Balthy, and others like Balthy where oldie cars were part of their growing up is special. (For people that love history and cars that is) I am truly envious.

Same hear. 4 door 1980s Chevy Caprices or Pontiac Parisiennes Pic from Montreal in the backround early 1980s mid 1980s And Olds Delta 88s and even Fleetwoods and Lincoln Town Cars and the downsized yet still fullsized FWD Bonnevilles and Delta 88s/98s and Buick LeSabres were everywhere. Not too many mini-vans in my neck of the woods either in the 1980-1990 era when my friends and I and our peers were pre-teens onward to becoming teens and young adults.

@Cubical-aka-Moltar I did the sad votey thingy because that is sad news indeed. I hope a sad votey thingy is not a down vote!

When this car first came out....I was like Then about 2 years after its release, something happened and I was like But now...after all these years...Im back to

1) 1996 Viper GTS 2) Im not into pick-up trucks...but in this case, Ill make an exception 2004-2006 Dodge Ram SRT-10 3) BMW E60 V10 M5 4) It is threads like these that make me learn what is out there. What was. What is and what will be. This model was not offered in North America. 2008-2010 Audi RS6. A Twin Turbo 5.0 liter V10 straight out of Audi's racing endeavors. 5) Based on the Viper both platform and engine but re-skinned to be Italian Goddess. Alpha Romeo ZagatoTZ3 Stradale

And-a now....amma gonna predict the next couple-a posts from a certain Cheers and Gears populace with this symbolic image... I have a flair for dramatic posts.... Im proud immensely. Im giving myself a pat on the back since I cant upvote myself.

The Jeep Wrangler won WW2 and is winning the battle for king of the off-roaders for 75 years. LESSON TO LEARN: Dont mess with a war hero!

Ford actually built most of the WW2 Jeeps during WW2. But in the late 1960s and 1970s, they had a Jeep competitor Ford decided to make this into a family hauler. But I think the Jeep kicked the Broncos ass in the 1980s and that is why Ford changed the name to Explorer and mall parking lots were its domain. GM also had a Jeep competitor. They also had Conan the Barbarian/T-100 Terminator/Governator peddle the SUV and brand full of toyish Hummers and well....the Wrangler became that much more of an icon Toyota....twice had a Jeep competitor. A reverse engineered job and a retro-model and while both were very good off roaders...the Wrangler spanked, kicked and bloodied Toyota's ass!!! Hell....Mercedes Benz is trying hard to displace the Wrangler with this, but the crowd that buys this is of the prissy kind. Although the SUV is quite tough and capable, the owners of these are quite the opposite. Flakey, quakey, prissy and fake. M-B sells a few, but not quite as many as Jeep! GM is afraid to let GMC have a go at it. Although GMC could make a go with it. Ford is bringing out another Bronco, but it dont seem to be a head on Wrangler fighter nor a full on 1970s style off road bad assBronco....more like light off road look-a-like 1970s Bronco for hauling families. The Raptor is a Pick-up truck.... I think its safe to say that the Wrangler will remain champ for quite a while longer.

I agree with everything except point #2 and #3. Point #2 There will always be a Wrangler movement in the US and in the rest of the world. Its an icon on the same level as Mustang, Corvette and Porsche 911. Even when all the poseurs and wannabes get bored with the Wrangler, there is enough real fans world wide to still out sell any other off road clone SUV from Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes and any other. Point #3 3rd row seating can fetch a few thousand more sales per year, I think its over-hyped. Mid-sized sedans dont have 3 rows. And yes mid-sized sedans sales are going south big time, most mid-sized sedan buyers did not require 3 rows to make a switch to SUVs, their needs were just to be in a higher clearance vehicle.

@balthazar LOL! We cant seem to shake off the doom and gloom sales argument. I am in agreement with both of your points here!!! Especially the 3rd row aspect being over-hype.

@balthazar Ive downvoted you twice now because I dont really think a couple of those posts deserve a +1 vote. Ya'll could high five yourselves like you are in a private boys club...Im letting you know that this boy here...he aint too happy with the club house mentality! I still love you guys... @dfelt @balthazar @A Horse With No Name and I respect the dickens out of you folk. A little tension and friction (in a friendly way) to spawn conversation and discussion is very healthy. Just to let you know Balthy, that the last conversations we had regarding profits and this one here is enjoyed by me fully and if it seems Im a tad aggressive...its only for fun to spark discussion and amusement for both of us and anybody else that wants to read and join in the conversation!!!

Why yes I do!!! The cars above are NOT shoeboxes as they have bulbous fenders...The 48 Ford has front and rear bulbous fenders while both Chevys have only rear bulbous fenders. The cars below are called shoeboxes... Although initially 'twas the '55, '56, '57 Chevys affectionately known as shoeboxes, Ford too got that nickname.... Why? Flat sided bodies...like a shoebox.... I just added the box like blah description to prove a point... While its cool to wave the American flag...using double standards to justify likes and dislikes irks me... I dont care what you like or dis-like. I dont care if you like or dis-like Japanese cars. I dont care if you like or dis-like American cars. Dont tell me you dislike one brand of car and like another and use a specific attribute when both seemingly have the same attributes. Be honest and ADMIT YOUR BIAS!!! WE ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE BIASES. WHAT WE ARENT ALLOWED IS TO BE HYPOCRITICAL ABOUT IT!!! I WILL CALL YOU UP ON IT!!! PS: I admit my biases. Please do the same! I think Ive earned that respect. Especially when it was written in a way that actually pointed a finger on me LIKING a Honda Accord Coupe and Prelude!!! PSS: I EVEN ADMITTED A BIAS MYSELF IN THAT POST DFELT QUOTED ME ON TELLING ME EACH THEIR OWN!!!

Its when double standard logic is used to define like and dislike that I have a problem with... Boxy blah-mobile description could also be applied to a top of the line 1987 Monte Carlo SS with all its glory...a 305cube V8 making an earth shattering 180HP... You know why I like a Honda Prelude? (it wasnt always love with me and a Prelude or any Honda product of that era or any Japanese car for that matter) 130 or so horsepower in the later years. nimble 4 wheel steering in the later years pop-up head lights creating a sexy sporty 2 door car for the young adult for the time that was the 1980s. yes, it was not a Mustang 5.0 or Camaro IROC or Trans AM GTA nor a "muscle car" Monte Carlo SS or Olds Cutlass Supreme or Pontiac Grand Prix all with that "glorious" 305 V8....but it was a sporty car exactly right for the times that was the 1980s. Why I like a R33 Skyline...the first time I learned about them (I did not know what a Skyline was and I had no idea what a R32 or R33 was) was in the mid 1994 or 1995 when Motortrend had a 1994 Corvette LT1 head up to Japan and they did a head to head type deal with a R33. (before a R34 came out) I immediately fell in love with the styling (subjective) 275 horses off an inline 6 with turbos... a decade went by when I learned that 276 horses was a very conservative number It beat the 1994 Vette LT1 is several performance specs I learned the history of these later on in life and learned that these have a history like our Muscle cars In fact...family cars these were based on Nissan had a lot of racing state of the art tech engineered to them

Thank-you. And I retract any statements I made earlier regarding any Pacifica problems with me not yet acknowledging them. But I did say I needed credible sources. This would be a credible source. I still however stand by my beliefs in not trusting blogs and internet forum chit chat opinion sites!

Yes. That is true also. In case of Oldsmobile...GM realized that there were too many brands under the GM umbrella to run efficiently so one brand had to go. Saab was just acquired that cost GM millions if not billions so Saab was out of the question to get axed so soon. Saturn was a more or less a new brand that cost GM billions to start up barely a decade before that GM continued to poor millions into that Saturn was out of the question to axe. That left Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick. Chevy is the bread and butter brand and Buick was GM's ace in the hole because of China regardless if Buick struggled more than Pontiac and Oldsmobile States side so that just leaves Pontiac and Oldsmobile. Cadillac is the opposite of Chevy as Cadillac is the flag ship brand so Cadillac was never to die. Especially when billions were spent trying to spark up Cadillac because Cadillac is the flag ship brand. Olds or Buick could never replace Cadillac! So I understand the decision making up to this point. Honestly, I dont know why Oldsmobile was chosen over Pontiac to get axed. But I understand the reasons why 1 brand had to go in the early 2000s.

I absolutely agree 100% to this!!!

Yeah. But you did tell me about a boutique manufacturer Lamborghini selling 500 units of one model versus a volume seller Cadillac, albeit low volume, but not as low as we might hope as your example of the ATS selling 14 000 units also has platform brothers in a Chevy Camaro and a bigger brother Cadillac CTS to help minimize costs to maximize profits. (both operate under a bigger umbrella corporation to help with the expenses and costs) 500 units sold at 200 000-300 000 dollars 14 000 units sold at approx. 40 000 dollars A Lamborghini is a high dollar, highly desirable boutique product that is marketed that way. A ATS is an "entry level luxury" car that may be coveted by some, but its still should sell in high enough volumes to stick around. The Camaro and CTS platform mates all help each other maximize profits by minimizing costs. This is the crutch of our discussion: Even if we manage to get zero expenses and zero costs somehow to get the highest possible profit, which in this case is 100%....if we dont sell a single unit, there is no profit! Depending what we want to sell and how we want to sell it, low volume/high price, or high volume /low price, or best scenario high volume/high price, we have to convince buyers to buy. In this zero cost/zero expense scenario, if we sell, but we dont sell enough worthy of our time and effort despite 100% profits, because that cost and expense is always a factor too, then this operation is soon to be toast. GM throughout the years, has NO difficulty shutting down not only models, but entire brands because enough sales are not there! The Vette only recently may have achieved special status to allow it to be more boutique. It may not be the case though as the C8 barely made it through...

Even the Corvette is a volume car... GM sells at volume. Pontiac and Oldsmobile did not sell enough to generate enough profits to stay alive, There was so much cost cutting and badge engineering and selling to rental agencies to try to maximize profits that even that was not enough volume....ie SALES....to avoid bankruptcy... Balthy wants to pretend that GM is a boutique car maker like Lambo and Porsche yet both Lambo and Porsche operate under a bigger corporation to minimize costs, yet that aint enough so both now are offering volume SUVs to boost SALES to boost profits... GM...its all about the sales... The Vette nearly got canned SEVERAL times in its history because it did not generate enough profit? No! Not enough SALES to generate enough PROFIT! (if GM decided that the Vette would be the only model to be a loss leader somewhere in its existence....so be it) (I aint saying its a loss leader now, its reported to be making ACCEPTABLE profits with the sales they get from it, but there was a time not too long ago that GM was not exactly on board with a next gen C8 even...and it sold OK....just not enough) The same is happening with the ATS and CTS...and like you said

econ 101 I suggest Balthy, you go back to school!!! As far as the last you you asked me... Balthy.... .Im just commenting on this thread.....I am NOT the source...this thread is suggesting the outcome you so wanna deny. I added the ATS and the CTS as that is what I thought would actually get the axe. I doubted the CT6 would get axed, as did you. I used several dead GM models, models that sold MORE than the ATS and CTS and they got canceled as comparisons... The Camaro got 40 000 sales in 2002...its last year. From 1996 to 2002, it hit 55 000 and 60 000 twice and regurarly got 40 000. It even had 100 000 plus sales at its 4rth gen intro. Not to mention Firebird sales. Which was a fraction of Camaro sales... So....

Without sales....there are NO profits... You need the sales, to make the profits.... Keeping the lights on is NOT enough...profits need to be worth while for the lights to remain on. Working for a little something at the end of the day may not be worth while to continue to keep the lights on... That part right there: ...we are saying the same thing....hence your Olds and Pontiac sales figures... The thing YOU have backwards is that it takes sales to actually make a profit. One could minimize all expenses and costs...it takes sales to produce a profit. It takes mucho sales to produce a worth while profit. Depending at what price point you are selling your product. High price usually goes with high desirability in order to not sell as much as your neighbor. But you gotta convince the people that are gonna buy your high priced object that your product shall be a desirable product. The ATS and CTS are CLEARLY NOT as desirable as their neighbors products... Pontiac and Oldsmobile got their clocks cleaned out by their competition. Its safe to say that while there are sales....not enough sales to produce a worth while profit exists. Increase ATS and CTS sales...increase profits to make it worth while. One could further cut ATS and CTS costs to possibly increase profits that way and try price them HIGHER than what they sell for now...but I doubt the desired SALES effect will be achieved...I think it further a downward spiral of sales.... Profits are incidental...NOT the other way around.

HA! Sales dont matter???!!! Tell that to: Plymouth Mercury Pontiac Oldsmobile AMC Duesenberg Auburn Cord Checker Hudson Should we include Saturn? GM as a whole almost did not make it Chrsyco as whole is STILL on the brink... Because as we all know...sales is just numbers that mean nothing...sure the ATS and the CTS have buyers... And sure Pontiac also had buyers and Oldsmobile too had buyers and so did Duesenberg and Hudson... Blockbuster also had customers and Sears STILL has some customers...but yeah, Im falling into the 'sales trap' because sales are just numbers and as long as there are customers to keep the lights on.... Yeah....Im falling into the "sales trap"... I dont know why the ATS and the CTS arent selling either...the term confusion just angers some of us... But yeah....1000 units per month for the ATS and 800-900 units for the CTS should be enough to keep the lights on at GM... That is why GM did NOT axe the Firebird and Camaro. Nor the STS. Nor the Fiero. Nor the Allante. Nor the LeSabre. Nor the Park Ave. Nor the Fleetwood. Nor the Toronado. Nor the Caprice. Nor the Bel Air. Nor the Riviera.... Because sales figures are just numbers and dont mean a damned thing...because there are customers that dont care what sales each model and brand do month to month....as long as the lights are still open for business... Plymouth Mercury Pontiac Oldsmobile AMC Duesenberg Auburn Cord Checker Hudson Id like to buy a brand new 2018 Oldsmobile Alero...because as you know...I dont care about sales figures and I buy what nobody else buys and I want my brand new 2018 Olds Intrigue NOW!!! Not a Buick or a Chevy. An Olds Intrigue new for 2018 ..... Because as we all know...sales dont mean a damned thing!!!

Did you like the Chevy Caprice and Montecarlos of those years? Hint: They get to be a tad boxy themselves... Dont you like classic 1950s and 1960s American iron? Hint: The Tri-5 Chevys are called shoe boxes as a nickname for a reason... PS: Arent you always saying that 4 door coupes are boring? What gives? Dont beat around the bush.... Say you hate Japanese cars and be done with it!!!

The average Joe is confused....put blinders on. I dont care. But Ill show you how Audi and BMW wipe the floor with Cadillac...confusion or not...it dont matter. Cadillac sedan sales are in the dumpster. Is it confusion? It dont matter. You could use semantics to try to dismiss Cadillac sales mediocrity... The ATS MAIN competition http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/ BMW 3-series / 4-series 2014 BMW 3-series / 4-series 2015 BMW 3-series / 4-series 2016 BMW 3-series / 4-series 2017 January 6.494 7.348 5.119 5.976 February 7.791 8.748 7.278 7.220 March 10.120 14.835 10.928 9.521 April 9.794 10.374 7.907 7.376 May 10.915 12.868 11.017 8.348 June 11.543 13.516 10.003 9.617 July 12.497 10.919 8.985 August 12.477 13.103 8.170 September 12.814 11.871 9.721 October 13.621 14.307 8.068 November 14.702 11.857 8.651 December 19.464 10.863 10.374 BMW 3-series / 4-series 2016 106.221 2015 140.609 2014 142.232 2013 119.521 2012 99.602 2011 94.371 2010 100.910 2009 90.960 2008 112.464 2007 142.490 2006 120.180 2005 106.950 2004 106.549 2003 111.944 2002 115.428 2001 103.227 2000 89.681 1999 77.138 1998 57.520 1997 52.472 1996 50.248 1995 50.146 1994 46.287 1993 45.594 1992 38.040 1991 29.002 1990 22.825 1989 21.738 1988 34.914 1987 58.897 1986 61.822 1985 53.927 1984 30.868 1983 33.602 1982 35.190 1981 28.927 1980 25.771 http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/audi/audi-a4/ Audi A4 / S4 2014 Audi A4 / S4 2015 Audi A4 / S4 2016 Audi A4 / S4 2017 January 2.194 1.563 1.325 1.737 February 2.216 1.743 1.827 2.377 March 3.334 2.266 3.226 3.876 April 3.167 2.327 2.983 3.246 May 3.123 2.785 2.756 3.011 June 3.365 2.863 2.802 3.022 July 2.717 2.433 2.612 August 3.233 2.743 2.965 September 2.480 2.221 3.175 October 2.268 2.896 3.864 November 2.699 2.418 3.143 December 3.197 3.426 4.009 Audi A4 / S4 2016 34.687 2015 29.013 2014 33.993 2013 36.744 2012 35.415 2011 35.234 2010 34.672 2009 37.070 2008 43.343 2007 45.411 2006 49.862 2005 48.922 2004 47.168 2003 51.043 2002 44.319 2001 35.739 2000 34.460 1999 32.137 1998 26.635 1997 20.871 1996 15.288 1995 0 Im not even gonna try to prove how crappy the CTS sales are compared to the Audi A6 and the BMW 5 Series....you know...the CTS' MAIN competition. Arent you a main believer of who cares what is happening OUTSIDE the US? Well...maybe its the semantics argument that you care about mostly... What is bugging you the most is the confusion argument... Hey... You may be right I may be crazy But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for Turn out the light Don't try to save me You may be wrong for all I know Im probably right!!!

Me too. But there was one model Accord coupe that I did like! 3rd generation 1987-1989 and the 1986-1991 Prelude But this is the last you will ever see me admit to that!!!

Well...yes! What Cadillac is doing here! And what is that? http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/cadillac/ The ATS is in free fall... Cadillac ATS 2016 21.505 2015 26.873 2014 29.890 2013 38.319 2012 7.008 Month to month in 2017 does not seem promising Cadillac ATS 2014 Cadillac ATS 2015 Cadillac ATS 2016 Cadillac ATS 2017 January 1.909 1.757 1.067 974 February 2.427 2.028 1.591 1.005 March 2.982 2.039 1.859 1.367 April 2.737 2.119 1.737 1.405 May 2.497 2.353 1.630 1.273 June 2.358 2.211 1.880 1.185 July 2.582 1.588 2.119 August 2.804 2.449 2.477 September 2.239 2.295 1.770 October 2.608 2.528 1.593 November 2.282 2.055 1.490 December 2.465 3.451 2.292 The CTS also in decline...a joke is more like it!!! Cadillac CTS 2016 15.911 2015 19.485 2014 31.115 2013 32.343 2012 46.979 2011 55.042 2010 45.656 2009 38.817 2008 58.774 2007 57.029 2006 54.846 2005 61.512 2004 57.211 2003 49.392 2002 37.976 In 2017...its presence is ghost like.... Cadillac CTS 2014 Cadillac CTS 2015 Cadillac CTS 2016 Cadillac CTS 2017 January 2.232 1.698 1.013 691 February 2.509 1.438 1.461 913 March 2.918 1.500 1.499 882 April 3.270 1.726 1.335 873 May 2.905 1.792 1.082 854 June 2.174 1.535 1.516 846 July 2.039 1.515 1.313 August 2.592 1.730 1.426 September 2.282 1.319 1.503 October 3.096 1.567 1.024 November 2.446 1.224 1.042 December 2.652 2.441 1.697 The CT6...for a brand new model is pathetic... Cadillac CT6 2016 Cadillac CT6 2017 January 0 634 February 0 802 March 35 968 April 285 978 May 697 1.001 June 962 1.014 July 827 August 1.242 September 1.343 October 1.316 November 1.169 December 1.293 But at least its sales are on the up.... So....please dont tell me the marketing in the US is NOT confusing.... Sure....but like I said....Cadillac is heading to be EXACTLY just that in the USA....a crossover seller. You better believe it needs an Enclave clone in the USA. Yes....just like the SRX before it...the XT5 is doing awesome. And THAT is why Cadillac needs an Enclave lone as its sedans are non-existent States side... My link suggests otherwise.... Yes....but that all changed in the early 1990s when they realized what was up with the Germans with the FWD STS Northstar . Its just that Cadillac half assed that strategy. It continued to half-ass that strategy with the Cadillac that was suppose to Zig and Zag with the Opel Omega based Catera thing. 1st generation and 2nd generation CTS was a good direction but 3rd gen RWD STS was a strategy that was half-assed again... 1st generation ATS and 3rd generation CTS along with the name change with the CT6 just confused the shyte out of potential buyers... I do too,, buddy! I do too! But I am NOT afraid to call a spade a spade. Some of us are though!!!