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Pontiac Defends The G3 Insertion Into The Lineup


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By Jim Hopson

Manager, Pontiac Communications

Although there have been rumors floating around all summer, we can now confirm that the G3 is officially coming to the U.S.

If you haven’t heard, the Pontiac G3 is a stylish five-door that features excellent fuel efficiency (27 mpg city, 34 mpg highway) plus a high level of standard content and interior passenger space, all rolled into a vehicle that fills a current void in our product portfolio of the fastest growing segment in the market, small cars.

We’re talking five star crash rating, the best shoulder and hip room in its class, comfortable seating for four adults (five, if you’re “friendly”), the best city fuel economy of any vehicle Pontiac offers, and what we expect to be the lowest starting price in the Buick-Pontiac-GMC showroom. You can check out Pontiac.com to learn more.

But, as with all rumors, there are those who have already been critical and have raised a number of questions about why we would bring the G3 to the U.S. We could give a whole series of rationale, business-like answers, but we’d rather just shoot from the hip, so here goes…

Isn’t the G3 just a re-badged Chevy Aveo? The G3 and Aveo share a lot of components, true. But Toyota and Lexus also share components. Why re-engineer the wheel unnecessarily?

Why do you need a G3 and a Vibe? Put the cars side-by-side and you’ll see the difference clearly. The G3 is about 16-inches shorter than the Vibe, so, while they are both five-doors, they are in two different classes. Kinda like saying a Corvette ZR1 and a Yugo are the same thing just because they’ve both got four wheels.

How can the G3 possibly be a Pontiac? Because it’s sporty and fun-to-drive when compared to many of the cars in its segment. True, it’s not a RWD V8, but that’s why the G8 is sitting in the same showroom. Different strokes for different folks.

The long and short of it is that only a fool buries his head in the sand when times are changing, and, with one hundred years in the business, we’ve never seen the automotive world change as much as it has in the past 18-months. Pontiac customers, both new and old, are changing their priorities, too, and we want to be there for them with a complete line of sporty alternatives.

The G3 is a great little car, pure and simple, and we hope you’ll feel the same when you test drive one as it arrives in dealerships in spring 2009. Is it perfect? Heck, no, but that’s why your feedback here and in other forums is so important.

Change and growth are never easy, but knowing that we’re all in it together makes its possible.

Link: http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2008/...s.html#comments

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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How can the G3 possibly be a Pontiac? Because it’s sporty and fun-to-drive when compared to many of the cars in its segment. True, it’s not a RWD V8, but that’s why the G8 is sitting in the same showroom. Different strokes for different folks.
:rotflmao:

How can you lie like that with a straight face?

I think Autolog comments on this very article nicely:

As you may know, Pontiac has finally decided to sell the Korean-built G3 five-door hatchback in the U.S. On sale elsewhere in the world as a Daewoo and as the Pontiac Wave in Canada and Mexico, the G3 is basically a Chevy Aveo5 with a different nose and red gauges. It's brand rebadging in the grand old GM tradition. Jim Hopson, Manager of Pontiac Communications, has recently attempted to defend the G3's insertion into Pontiac's lineup on the GM Fastlane Blog. Let's take a look...

When addressing the fact that the G3 is just a rebadged Aveo5, he admits they "share a lot of components" (understatement), but that Toyota and Lexus also share components. Seriously? When Toyota and Lexus share components, the two cars are offered with entirely different exteriors, interiors, suspension and engine tuning. From what we can tell, the G3 and Aveo are identical except for their front ends, gauge clusters and wheels. Next he addresses why Pontiac needs the G3 and Vibe, but we don't think many people are asking that question. The G3 and Vibe are very different in size, capability and purpose.

The next question addressed is where things fall apart entirely. In answering how the G3 can possibly be a Pontiac, Hopson says it's because the car is "sporty and fun-to-drive when compared to many of the cars in its segment." We recently had a 2009 Chevy Aveo5 in the Autoblog Garage (review forthcoming) and can confirm that it's the least sporty and fun-to-drive among its competitors, so much so that we wonder how anyone, even a PR guy, can say otherwise with a straight face.

The G3 is on its way to Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers for a number of reasons, but chief among them is because those dealers simply demanded it. There are no truly small cars among those three brands and they need one that looks fuel efficient to attract customers, never mind the fact that it won't even have the highest EPA rated fuel economy on their showroom floors. The also rebadged Pontiac G5 XFE can get 3 mpg better on the highway than the smaller G3.

x09pn_g3004_opt.jpg

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Well, we Canadian dealers have been feeling the pain for years now, it's time for our American cousins to feel it, too.

I can't wait for the Pontiac Volt. What are they going to call it, Watt?

As I have said for years, GM is the only manufacturer out there that canablizes its own. It's not enough that we have to compete with Honda, Toyota and the rest, but we also have to worry about our Pontiac dealers whoring out products that we have in our show room. :rolleyes:

It's a big heaping dose of not good for both the dealers and the consumer, but GM figures an extra few sales are good for corporate. It's that stupid thinking that has gotten us all into this mess.

Oh, and don't forget about the Swift + sold over at Suzuki, now with 0% financing for 84 F$%KING MONTHS.

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Oh, and don't forget about the Swift + sold over at Suzuki, now with 0% financing for 84 F$%KING MONTHS.

Interesting..that Swift + Canada gets looks like a rebadge of the old Aveo... the US doesn't have it, AFAIK. The European market Swift looks like a much more modern car... apparently, the Euro/Asian market Swift is coming to NA in '10.

Swift coming to US in 2010

Edited by moltar
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Isn’t the G3 just a re-badged Chevy Aveo? The G3 and Aveo share a lot of components, true. But Toyota and Lexus also share components. Why re-engineer the wheel unnecessarily?
It is true that the Lexus ES, Lexus RX, Camry, Avalon, and Highlander all share the same platform, but Toyota has given each product its own unique exterior/interior design and character (what little character that Toyota or Lexus do have) to properly serve its purpose in its respective brand's lineup. This is called platform sharing, Jim! GM took a Chevy Aveo, applied a few superficial cosmetic changes, and renamed it the Pontiac G3. This is called badge engineering or rebadging, Jim! I'm sure you realize the difference; you are just bypassing it in an effort to complete your G3 justification mission. Badge engineering is the reason Pontiac has no definitive brand image or relevance in the market. I think most people wouldn't have a problem with a FWD subcompact in Pontiac's lineup if it was a distinct, brand appropriate product instead of a blatant Chevy clone rebadge job. To many diehard Pontiac fans, the blatant Chevy rebadge clone products represent a general disrespect and disregard that GM seems to have for this historic division. If this is a temporary stopgap measure to appease Pontiac dealers, then I can almost accept it (although I still believe that it further dilutes Pontiac's already watered down brand image). If it is an indication of the brand's future direction, then I say put Pontiac out of its misery and let Buick and

Saturn(?) carry on as the corporation's midmarket representatives.

Why do you need a G3 and a Vibe? Put the cars side-by-side and you’ll see the difference clearly. The G3 is about 16-inches shorter than the Vibe, so, while they are both five-doors, they are in two different classes. Kinda like saying a Corvette ZR1 and a Yugo are the same thing just because they’ve both got four wheels.

I agree that Pontiac could use a subcompact vehicle in its lineup (below the Vibe and G5), but the Aveo cloned G3 is totally inappropriate. I think people are questioning the worthiness of a rebadged Aveo in Pontiac's lineup more so than they are questioning its inclusion in relation to the Vibe.

I think the Corvette/Yugo comparison is really stretching it a bit, Jim! A Corvette/Camaro comparision would have been a lot more appropriate for a variety of reasons.

How can the G3 possibly be a Pontiac? Because it’s sporty and fun-to-drive when compared to many of the cars in its segment. True, it’s not a RWD V8, but that’s why the G8 is sitting in the same showroom. Different strokes for different folks.

The long and short of it is that only a fool buries his head in the sand when times are changing, and, with one hundred years in the business, we’ve never seen the automotive world change as much as it has in the past 18-months. Pontiac customers, both new and old, are changing their priorities, too, and we want to be there for them with a complete line of sporty alternatives.

The G3 is a great little car, pure and simple, and we hope you’ll feel the same when you test drive one as it arrives in dealerships in spring 2009. Is it perfect? Heck, no, but that’s why your feedback here and in other forums is so important.

Change and growth are never easy, but knowing that we’re all in it together makes its possible.

Let's face it, Jim: the G3 is a cheap set of wheels that GM assigned to Pontiac to appease the wishes of your dealers. It is NOT anything close to being a sporty alternative! I know your job is to put a positive spin on this product and its placement in Pontiac's lineup. I still think that most people see it for what it is, no matter how much you or GM try to smooth it over or justify it.

As far as anyone burying their heads, GM is the poster child for doing just that. This is the main reason GM is scrambling around to meet the rapidly changing needs and expectations of the market. I do realize and accept that GM isn't the only auto corporation in this scenario and that the changes are affecting more aspects of society than just the auto industry. I just hope that the G3 is a temporary stopgap measure to quickly meet those needs and expectations in the near future. There are a lot more attractive and brand appropriate long term solutions GM could explore to satisfy those needs in the future if the corporation doesn't become dependent on providing rebadged Chevy clones as a cheap and convenient quick fix to its issues.

Edited by cire
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Isn’t the G3 just a re-badged Chevy Aveo? The G3 and Aveo share a lot of components, true. But Toyota and Lexus also share components. Why re-engineer the wheel unnecessarily?

That's just pure ignorance talking.. Platform sharing (like the Malibu, G6, and Aura, or Camry and ES) is one thing--each model has it's own distinct exterior and interior design), while the G3 and G5 are purely badge-engineered from their Chevrolet versions..

The G3 and G5 are the same level of lameness as what Chrysler did in the '80s--Dodge and Plymouth got identical sh*tbox FWD models that differed only in badging, grilles and taillights. It's a big step back for GM, IMHO, as they seemed to be moving away from such cheap tricks (i.e. like the U-vans/CSVs, which were 4 badge-engineered models)...it shows how little they care about Pontiac. It's just an afterthought brand now, sadly.

ARggghhhhhh.... other than Cadillac, Pontiac has historically been my favorite GM brand, esp. the '60s-70s models..when Pontiac was relevant...the Solstice and G8 are the only ones I like in today's line, they are the only models today with any Pontiac 'spirit', IMHO..

Edited by moltar
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A rebadged Suzuki Swift in 3- and 5-door versions, based on British press reviews, would have been more in keeping with Pontiac's sporty image. I do like the Pontiac G3 (Firefly would have been more fun) styling cues better than the Chevy, but the car itself is NOT sporty. I saw a fully-loaded Aveo5 today at a dealership... it is MSRP over $18k! What a joke!
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Nearby dealer has about 8 '09 base model G6 sedans, 2.4L/4 speed autos, some with just side moldings, some with Preferred Pkg. They are not bad. I still think the G6 is a good looking car, and I love the Silver Green colour. Edited by ocnblu
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:rotflmao:

Why not fleet 99% all of these Pontiacs (I mean, rebadged Chevrolets) and let Chevrolet get all the retail sales?

I suggested that a while ago. Fleet seems to be the only reason Pontiac exists anymore.

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Well they're in at least as good a shape as they were in the 80's. All they had that was overtly sporty was the V8 Firebird and the V6 Fiero. Nowadays, it's the Solstice, G6 GXP and the G8...

Edited by ocnblu
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In a few years Pontiac won't have the Solstice or G8, therefore nothing will be any more sporty than the Chevy counterpart.

I agree with ZL-1 about making Pontiac be the fleet division. Pontiac and GMC can both be fleeted Chevys, and BPG dealers can be given Saturn in exchange. I think Saturn and Buick would compliment each other nicely, sort of like a VW-Audi, but on a less-expensive scale (at least for Buick and most of Saturn... give Saturn Corsa, Astra, Vue, MPV, Sky (if there is a next one), to take on the lower VWs, and let Buick start off with something to take on the Jetta and Passat, along with Enclave and perhaps one other car.

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Saturn has a large stand-alone dealer network that will cost millions to close. Pontiac is grouped with Buick and GMC, those dealers aren't going to sue if they lose 33.3% of their brands, especially if GM shows legitimate interest in strengthening the other 66.7%.

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Saturn is a failed brand and should be killed. All that money pumped into them, with no ROI... clearly, they are much more of a drag on GM than Pontiac ever was.

I agree, but it doesn't appear GM thinks Pontiac has anything to offer in the future, and at the same time think Saturn does have something to offer. Might as well make the most of the brands GM considers relevant.

I've thought for some time that a merger involving GM and Honda could make a very strong lineup, with GM killing all brands but Chevy and Cadillac, and thus the result being Chevy-Honda, Acura-Cadillac, each a step above the other... this could be the case with Chevy-Saturn-Buick-Cadillac, though Saturn and Buick need to gain recognition in the marketplace compared to Honda and Acura.

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Honestly Pontiac still is an important brand and I have faith we will see more exciting products from them at least with different styling yes on the same platform. The G8 has been a hit seriously they are on par to sell 25K a year and that is decent with the price of gas. I predict with the DI V6 sales will be stronger, also I think the next generation G8 and Solstice will be safe and for sure the G8 because it is a rebadge for America. As for the Solstice it is a draw to get people into the showroom and would be silly to drop such a postive image car. If any brand should go it would be Saturn, smaller dealer network and lots of mid-western folks like Pontiac. Many on the coast like products like the G8 and Solstice so I don't think we will see tem going anywhere. Pontiac can been a sucess and turnaround. I am giving GM time and waiting.

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I just wants a simi-unique G6 like the current one different from the Malibu. When we get a new G6... Which hopefully will be before 2012.

If Buick is going to have 2 Epsilon II sedans, then I wonder if Pontiac will get one at all. Do BPG dealers need 3 Epsilon sedans? This is why I can see the G3, G5, and Vibe being the only Pontiacs in about 3 years.

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Honestly Pontiac still is an important brand and I have faith we will see more exciting products from them at least with different styling yes on the same platform. The G8 has been a hit seriously they are on par to sell 25K a year and that is decent with the price of gas. I predict with the DI V6 sales will be stronger, also I think the next generation G8 and Solstice will be safe and for sure the G8 because it is a rebadge for America. As for the Solstice it is a draw to get people into the showroom and would be silly to drop such a postive image car. If any brand should go it would be Saturn, smaller dealer network and lots of mid-western folks like Pontiac. Many on the coast like products like the G8 and Solstice so I don't think we will see tem going anywhere. Pontiac can been a sucess and turnaround. I am giving GM time and waiting.

You are in for a really big awakening. All I'm going to say.

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You are in for a really big awakening. All I'm going to say.

My prediction is that within five to eight years, Pontiac will have gone the way of Olds. They will trim down the line to only 3 Chevy rebadges (G3,G5, next G6), make them 75% or more fleet, then pull the plug. Since Pontiac is part of BPG, it will have minimal effect on dealers...

Sad, but unstoppable at this point if the suits at GMNA have already decided the end game for Pontiac.

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"Sad" doesn't begin to cover it. It would be outrageous, criminal and inexcusable for GM to kill Pontiac. They'll kill what's left of GMNA. They lost a big majority of Oldsmobile customers, never to return. Killing Pontiac would only further weaken their position. If GM management wants to run the company into the ground, let them, but I am not going down with the ship. f@#k GM if that's the case, seriously.
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At the Pontiac nationals where I showed this year I was shoick at how many collectors and restorers feel Pontiac is on the way out.

They too are like those here and few could agree on what direction to save Pontiac other than something different than what they are doing now.

This too make one think much the same is going on in GM right now. The old game for years is what GM wants vs what Pontiac wants and guess who wins.

Note GM has cut support to many events I Judged ot attended this year. The Pontiac event did not get even stock factory cars on display this year let alone anything from the historic collection.

Pontiac supoport was small nylon back pack left over from a NHRA event.

Things are looking worse all the time.

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"Sad" doesn't begin to cover it. It would be outrageous, criminal and inexcusable for GM to kill Pontiac. They'll kill what's left of GMNA. They lost a big majority of Oldsmobile customers, never to return. Killing Pontiac would only further weaken their position. If GM management wants to run the company into the ground, let them, but I am not going down with the ship. f@#k GM if that's the case, seriously.

The defective thinking at GM is so blatant these days.

To value Saturn of all things above Pontiac is sheer stupidity.

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I already knew GM was planning to shut down Pontiac when they killed off Bonneville, changed their name schemes to the lame and lazy G nomenclature and when they asked Toyota for help, and replacing ALL of the model line-ups with imports(G8, GTO, Vibe) or Chevy re-badges(Torrent, G5). Now, they are planning to change one of the very few remaining REAL AMERICAN model G6 with ANOTHER holden junk from Australia, killing my Grand Prix(North American made), in place of that boring looking G8 from down under, and now, wants to repeat their mistake of importing a Daewoo sh*t they did in the past. I'd say they are proceeding with their gameplan and process in closing down of once a great brand synonymous for cheap performance and EXCITEMENT. To me, it was a mistake of killing off Oldsmobile, now, they are trying to repeat their mistake, rather than learning from it, by killing another, once great brand. About the only models that I call Pontiac these days are only limited to Solstice(I am eager to see the targa version), and the current G6(Which isn't a re-badge of the Chevy sh*t, or an import), now that the Grand Prix is dead. I call the G5 as Chevy G5, Torrent as Chevy Torrent, G8 as Holden G8, and Vibe as Toyota Vibe, cause that's what they are. Now, their new model will be Daewoo G3? What happened to the REAL Pontiac? Oh, that's right, there won't be, since Pontiac name will be no more soon.......

To me, only cars that will give Pontiac the 60's and 70's glory will be North American designed and built cars like Bonneville, Grand Prix, GTO, or Firebird that isn't just a re-badged version of the Camaro but with sportier designs that they had before front and back, and the interior which were 'DIFFERENT' though the side design was identical. No other cars will do Pontiac justice. Not those import junks, or the Chevy re-badges from the recycle bins that Chevy have discarded the parts to, which seems like what Pontiacs are these days(besides Solstice and G6 that is, even though Solstice DOES use the recycled parts inside).

Sorry for my long post and sorry if anyone found it to be irritating, but that's how I see it. I used to love Pontiacs, but not anymore, ever since I got my dream car that I wanted for so long that is not a piece of sh*t import from Autralia/Japan/Korea or a crappy Chevy junk rebadge, but a legitimate North American Heritage that IS Pontiac, which is all I care for now. Unless they bring back the names like Bonneville, Grand Prix, GTO, Firebird that is NOT an import from outside of North America or rebadge of any sort, that they ARE designed and built in North America, I don't care if Pontiac shuts down completely now. Now, I can care less. They had their chance, but they blew it. Bye Bye Pontiac, and Bye Bye GM, it's been fun doing business with you, my once loved AMERICAN brand.

Edited by Diehard GrandPrix Fan
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GM seriously could get pontiac to survive with a G8 and a G6 both on Zeta/Alpha. Make the solstice alpha too. make the g8 and g6 sedan/wagon/coupe. then, a compact or two (a hatch and a sedan). If the Zeta had a fuel efficient 6 as one of its choices, and if the g6 has a fuel efficient but poweful four, i think they could survive. The G8 and G6 would be just like the 3 and 5 series are to BMW....only a couple chassis, but variations allow a lot of uniqueness. Pontiac could survive on Alpha, Zeta, and sharing a Delta chassis. If G6 went Eps 2 I wouldnt cry.

GM just chooses not to go the distance. They dont want to invest enough in the cars to make them pure and special.

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But, as with all rumors, there are those who have already been critical and have raised a number of questions about why we would bring the G3 to the U.S. We could give a whole series of rationale, business-like answers, but we’d rather just shoot from the hip, so here goes…

Or you COULD give us the truth, which is the business-like answers, instead of insulting our intelligence with :bs:

Isn’t the G3 just a re-badged Chevy Aveo? The G3 and Aveo share a lot of components, true. But Toyota and Lexus also share components. Why re-engineer the wheel unnecessarily?
LOL... I hate Toyota with every fiber of my being, but to make this comparison is insane.

Why do you need a G3 and a Vibe? Put the cars side-by-side and you’ll see the difference clearly. The G3 is about 16-inches shorter than the Vibe, so, while they are both five-doors, they are in two different classes. Kinda like saying a Corvette ZR1 and a Yugo are the same thing just because they’ve both got four wheels.

I don't think the difference is quite that drastic.

How can the G3 possibly be a Pontiac? Because it’s sporty and fun-to-drive when compared to many of the cars in its segment. True, it’s not a RWD V8, but that’s why the G8 is sitting in the same showroom. Different strokes for different folks.
LOL.

Ya know, I really want to love and support this train of thought. But until GM 1) TRIES to make this more than Aveo with 2 grilles and 2) Assures the safety of the G8, I'll continue being a critical jack ass.

The G3 could've been well done and it can exist in the Pontiac showroom with the G8, if GM made it worthy of that position.

The long and short of it is that only a fool buries his head in the sand when times are changing, and, with one hundred years in the business, we’ve never seen the automotive world change as much as it has in the past 18-months. Pontiac customers, both new and old, are changing their priorities, too, and we want to be there for them with a complete line of sporty alternatives.

Fine, as long as it IS a COMPLETE line up of cars.

The G3 is a great little car, pure and simple, and we hope you’ll feel the same when you test drive one as it arrives in dealerships in spring 2009. Is it perfect? Heck, no, but that’s why your feedback here and in other forums is so important.

Too bad I won't be test driving one.... Although, I would consider it over the Aveo anyday.

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My prediction is that within five to eight years, Pontiac will have gone the way of Olds. They will trim down the line to only 3 Chevy rebadges (G3,G5, next G6), make them 75% or more fleet, then pull the plug. Since Pontiac is part of BPG, it will have minimal effect on dealers...

Sad, but unstoppable at this point if the suits at GMNA have already decided the end game for Pontiac.

God Damned I hope not. I could be done with General Motors if they do this. I am not even kidding. I do think we will get a new G8 when the Holden verison gets redesigned. As for the Solstice the pet project Saturn will get a Sky so GM deserves a Solstice. If GM actually does that to Pontiac a G3, G5 and G6 that would be sad. I don't think it will be the case. I think we will see a new-day at Pontiac just not today or tomorrow. In a few years hopefully things will look better. If they can remake Cadillac they can do Pontiac. Honestly I don't understand how GM can justify Buick in the US when Pontiac sells three times the cars... I know they are doing well in China. I hold out hope. PCS but you always seem to be negative, and to be positive we have a Solstice Coupe coming, G8 ST coming, G8 GXP and a G3 some products more exciting than others but there might be more light at the end of the tunnel.

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PCS but you always seem to be negative, and to be positive we have a Solstice Coupe coming, G8 ST coming, G8 GXP and a G3 some products more exciting than others but there might be more light at the end of the tunnel.

You Sir, confuse negativity with realism. I look around GM and see what's happening on a daily basis. I try to suggest what is coming down the pike as I see it. I don't look through rose colored glasses, as you seem to do. Wouldn't you rather know what most likely will happen rather than being caught by the short hairs and be devastated by the news at a later time?

Maybe you don't want to know, perhaps that's the problem, maybe you would really like to live in the Pontiac Dream World until that world is no more.

As for Zeta and Kappa, I don't see either lasting much beyond the 2011 model year.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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You Sir, confuse negativity with realism. I look around GM and see what's happening on a daily basis. I try to suggest what is coming down the pike as I see it. I don't look through rose colored glasses, as you seem to do. Wouldn't you rather know what most likely will happen rather than being caught by the short hairs and be devastated by the news at a later time?

Maybe you don't want to know, perhaps that's the problem, maybe you would really like to live in the Pontiac Dream World until that world is no more.

As for Zeta and Kappa, I don't see either lasting much beyond the 2011 model year.

Agree , that's IS his problem.

Plus even if GM was making Toyota size net income(could happen next decade :scratchchin: ) , why would it spend money on designing a bunch of cars for a brand thats not sold outside of North America?

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God Damned I hope not. I could be done with General Motors if they do this. I am not even kidding. I do think we will get a new G8 when the Holden verison gets redesigned. As for the Solstice the pet project Saturn will get a Sky so GM deserves a Solstice. If GM actually does that to Pontiac a G3, G5 and G6 that would be sad. I don't think it will be the case. I think we will see a new-day at Pontiac just not today or tomorrow. In a few years hopefully things will look better. If they can remake Cadillac they can do Pontiac. Honestly I don't understand how GM can justify Buick in the US when Pontiac sells three times the cars... I know they are doing well in China. I hold out hope. PCS but you always seem to be negative, and to be positive we have a Solstice Coupe coming, G8 ST coming, G8 GXP and a G3 some products more exciting than others but there might be more light at the end of the tunnel.

I appreciate that you are trying to remain positive about Pontiac's future, but there are a few things working against Pontiac:

1) Pontiac is the only brand that is exclusive to North America (I know Saturn is too, but they are supposed to be "aligned" with Opel); it is highly unlikely that GM is going to invest much development money in a brand that is only sold in North America (especially with the U.S. economy in its current precarious state).

2) Upcoming CAFE regulations and rapidly changing market conditions seem to have convinced GM that affordable RWD cars will be a detriment to the corporation; I truly doubt that Pontiac will receive a next gen RWD G8 or Solstice. Except for a few specialty products scattered here and there (none of which will appear in Pontiac's lineup), I think the bulk of GM's RWD products will appear in Cadillac's lineup (and FWD is now even infiltrating Cadillac in the form of crossovers).

3) Buick is paired with Pontiac and Buick has always historically been a more premium brand than Pontiac. Buick also has a large following in China and excellent quality/reliability scores in the U.S. I think GM intends to give Buick a higher profile position in the midmarket premium segment based on these facts. I wouldn't be surprised if GM eventually moved Saturn into the BPG network to complement Buick in the midmarket premium segment, which leaves Pontiac pretty much out of the picture as far as this segment is concerned. I think GM will eventually limit Pontiac to a couple of small rebadged Chevy clones and the Vibe to provide BPG some smaller products until the next generation of small Opel products (Corsa, Astra, Meriva, Zafira, and Antara) are ready for Saturn . Once Saturn is armed with their next gen small Opel based products then GM will slide Saturn into the BPG network and slowly allow Pontiac to fade away. The plug will probably be pulled when the current gen Vibe reaches the end of its model cycle. I hope I'm wrong about this, but some of the corporation's recent activity seems to suggest that this might happen.

I would like to see GM do something more with Pontiac, but I really think they don't intend to bother themselves much with this brand. I can think of quite a few solutions that would allow GM to make Pontiac a clearly defined niche brand, but I know that those solutions will never become reality. I'm not saying this to burst your hopes and dreams for Pontiac. I just hate to think how disillusioned you'll be when what appears to be the inevitable happens. I don't think resigning Pontiac to rebadged Chevy clones and restyled Toyota products until it can be eliminated needs to be the ultimate destiny for this historic GM division, but I think GM believes otherwise.

I also don't think PCS is being overly negative or pessimistic. He is obviously in a position to receive information about GM's future plans and is simply trying to warn us that Pontiac's future isn't very bright and definitely not what we would want it to be.

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Also I thought it was offical that no brand was going away or to change except for Hummer.

If I'm not mistaken, the last thing I read about this is that all the divisions were being "reviewed" except for Cadillac and Chevrolet. I think Hummer is the only one so far that has been referred to as being "for sale".

Here are my predictions as to what will eventually happen:

* Chevrolet: Continue as the volume, mainstream division.

* Pontiac: Will eventually be reduced to subcompact/compact Chevy rebadges and the Vibe until Saturn is ready to join Buick in the midmarket premium dealer network.

* Saturn: Will eventually be reduced to subcompact/compact premium vehicles based on next gen Opel products (Corsa, Astra, Meriva, Zafira, Antara) and combined with Buick to cover the midmarket premium segment.

* Buick: Will be assigned midsize to large vehicles and combined with Saturn to cover the premium midmarket segment.

* GMC: I don't have any idea.

* Saab: Will continue to be mostly (if not entirely) FWD based and stay combined with Cadillac to cover the luxury segment.

* Cadillac: Will stay combined with Saab to cover the luxury segment with a lineup split between RWD car products and FWD crossover products.

I definitely do not want to see Pontiac go, but I believe it will eventually happen.

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Also I thought it was offical that no brand was going away or to change except for Hummer.

Well, if they are planning to strangle Pontiac or Buick or GMC, do you think they will just announce it? Kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think? Oldsmobile cost them billions. Making a brand unprofitable and killing off the dealers will, on the face of it, cost GM nothing. It's a calculated risk, though - GM's image could still be hurt in the process.

It could be ugly for Canada, though, since Pontiac-Buick-GMC are stronger names than Chevrolet.

Whatever GM decides (or has decided) to do, it won't be easy. But with sub-20% market share, there is absolutely no business model for 8 brands. NONE. NADA.

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You Sir, confuse negativity with realism. I look around GM and see what's happening on a daily basis. I try to suggest what is coming down the pike as I see it. I don't look through rose colored glasses, as you seem to do. Wouldn't you rather know what most likely will happen rather than being caught by the short hairs and be devastated by the news at a later time?

Maybe you don't want to know, perhaps that's the problem, maybe you would really like to live in the Pontiac Dream World until that world is no more.

As for Zeta and Kappa, I don't see either lasting much beyond the 2011 model year.

Well if this is true and it very well might be then let them weather out the storm. If the product they have is good to sell rebadge or not they could live. If they have no G8 replacement planned as 2011 is only 4 years of the G8 and the typical product cycle is 5 or so I see lots of problems coming up for them, provided they don't replace it. As for the Solstice I am less hopefully about that product, but could see another one coming in a brighter day. I have a thought what about taking Pontiac into China? Selling the G8 and Solstice possibly the Vibe? I am ready for it to go either way I still hold out some hope. Thanks tho for the reality check I won't be too suprised when I find all Pontiac's as direct Chevrolet rebadges, and trust me they could live that if they are done well... Heres to hoping, Saab, Saturn and Hummer all belong going before Pontiac. Its just with 4 new products or variations rebadge or not I find it hard currently to see them going anywhere.

Edited by gm4life
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Though it would truly be sad to see Pontiac fade away, I honestly think it's for the best. Times change. We aren't the same society or the same consumers as those of the 50's, 60's, or 70's. In those times, yes, names like Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet were huge. They could all offer similar products that appealed to different markets. Since then, the consumer as we know him/her, has evolved. They don't want re-badged, overlapping products. This leads to price wars. For example, why buy an Aura when the Malibu drives the same and can be had for 2K less after haggling - this is just an example). These consumers believe in one offering, per manufacturer, per market, like those cross-shopping an Accord, with Camry, or Malibu; not Accord, Camry, Malibu, G6, Aura, TSX, Avalon.

On the same note, I never saw a point to have Buick, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Chevrolet, Cadillac and Saab all offer products within North America in today's market. They all overlap to some degree. There was no longer a point to Oldsmobile, no point to Saab, and no point to Pontiac anymore. The reason I bring up Pontiac there, is because if people want luxury and performance, they have Buick and Cadillac (depending on their price-range), if they want lower end, they will have Chevy and Saturn.

Chevy offers mainstream at affordable pricing, Saturn was to offer a slightly more premium offering, with cars such as Corsa, Astra, Meriva, Aura and Vue for those that didn't want budget Chevrolets with cheaper materials and bland styling. Then comes Buick and Cadillac for those that want more than what Saturn has to offer, at an obviously more premium price.

The way I see it happening for GM's car lineups (excluding full sized trucks and large SUV's)...

Chevy - mainstream cars that offer value and no frills

Saturn - same cars that Chevy offers, only with Euro flair (like Honda/Acura) - but offer better materials, more options as well as turbos, diesels and hybrids

Buick - Entry Lux offerings that have V6 (or optional V8) power with quietness and comfort - have limited sport models for each car, but keep everything FWD

Cadillac - High-end lux that offers latest cutting edge technology and innovation - make them V6 or V8 (as they are now) and keep them all RWD or optional AWD

In terms of car models, I think this covers the bases. That way each division's models can be further differentiated in price, not having them too close together as they are now. Each car that GM makes right now, has cars that overlap eachother. The general isn't in the business to compete against itself, so why build the same cars to do so? To save a buck?

Truthfully, I think of Saab as too close to being like Cadillac, Pontiac is too close to Buick, Saturn and Chevy are too similar in current format as well. None of them have a true direction. Unfortunately, history cannot be repeated time and time again, or the general will fail, because again, we aren't the same consumers in this day in age as we were in the early eras. Times have changed and GM has to realize they have to change with it, or fail.

Guys, I am 28 years old. I wasn't alive in those eras, but I hope you all understand I am a big fan of older cars. I have a love and appreciation for them, but to keep something around way past it's prime is ridiculous. Almost like an old dog that used to be strong and mean, that is now withering away and always sleeping. It's sad to see, and will never return to it's original greatness or it's past prime. Let it end.

I would rather not see Pontiac convert to just being a re-badged division that has Holden and Opel cars, because Pontiac has a huge history behind it. Why let it linger on like the old dog that wants to die, but is kept on life support for everyone else's benefit?

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Chevy - mainstream cars that offer value and no frills

Saturn - same cars that Chevy offers, only with Euro flair (like Honda/Acura) - but offer better materials, more options as well as turbos, diesels and hybrids

I understand what you are suggesting.......but let's dissect Chevy versus Saturn products in this way.......

Take the Malibu/Aura. Many would argue that the new Malibu has just as much "Euro" flair as the Aura.....thanks to it's (better, IMHO) exterior styling, more progressive (and better again IMHO) interior styling, powertrains, and ride-and-handling compromise. Plus, to me, it doesn't seem like Aura uses any materials, seats, features that are in any way different or more "upscale" or more "Euro" that what Malibu offers.....

Same can be said of Traverse/Outlook.

Nor are there really any differences between Solstice/Sky....(okay I know Solstice is a Pontiac, but you get my point.)

The only real argument could be made that the Astra is a step up from a Cobalt in terms of "Euro" flair......but that's the only one I see right now.

So when you dig down to the nitty-gritty......one is buying a Saturn over a Chevy for things such as individual stylistic touches or dealership channel......not for any significant differentiation between the two brands. Saturn REALLY offers nothing that Chevy already doesn't.....

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I actually think the new 'bu is alright looking, but it's not really european in looks. As well, the Aura was designed before they brought out the new 'bu, so really, it's Chevy's fault that the 'bu looks as upscale as it does and bested the Aura (in your opinion) in both interior and exterior. I would still much rather have an Aura because it's clean, simple, and has that front fascia that screams class (again, to me). The 'Bu's rear end ireminds me of the girl you don't want to tap in college. It's ugly, and big. The C-Pillar is overwhelming to me. It ruins the profile of the car. The interior looks good, but it's a bit distracting to have those arches in the dash. Not sure if I like it too much. Almost like they are trying too hard to be different. Look at any euro car, and you won't see that. They usually have simple and clean interiors, not busy ones.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. My post above reflected what I think Chevy and Saturn should be positioned as. If Lutz did change his mind (and I wish he would) about bringing the Insignia over intact and making it the Aura, it would truly be the beginning to how I stated in my above post.

The outlook, though I love it, should be removed from the Saturn lineup. I do, however, feel that it looks way better than the Travesty, so I would recommend GM to move the Outlook to the Chevy lineup and can that $h!box design for the Travesty. It looks big and awkward. The taillights are almost too VW for my liking, and the frontend says "get out of my way or I'm going to eat you". The whole design is to the eye, the way Roseanne Barr is to stripping.

The solstice is too round. It's an alright design but the frontend is too cutesy. The sky looks alot more upscale, and the interior of the Sky is far better than the Solstice. Can you even compare the two?

I hear your point about the Astra, but what happens if Saturn adds the Corsa to the lineup? Then you have an upscale alternative to the Aveo...

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I'll say it again. Saturn has that big, independent sales network that would require a ton of money (that GM doesn't have) to shut down. That, as well as the huge initial investment, makes it almost necessary for GM to put money into Saturn. Pontiac dealers have Buick and GMC, so pulling one brand out wont cost GM much money. So if GM does cut one of their redundant brands (Pontiac, Saturn, GMC) it makes sense to cut the one that will cost them the least. Pontiac's "unique" vehicles can be rolled into other Brands. The Solstice could be re-skinned into a Chevy or Buick (maybe even a Saab) or the SKY could just be GM's lone entrant in this niche market. The Vibe could become a Saturn (drop the Astra 5-door, please) and the G8 could be put into any other brand, the only thing Pontiac about it is the hood scoops, which look pretty ridiculous.

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Agreed Satty.

On top of the obvious lack of money it would take to shut down Saturn, I would honestly like to see Pontiac shut down before Saturn, because I wouldn't want to see Pontiac re-imaged as the brand GM no longer cares about. They get re-badged leftovers like the G3, G5 and Torrent (yes I know Torrent is finally done with though), but lets think back to what Pontiac was about...performance. What does today's America need more than anything? Fuel efficiency. There is not enough consumer interest to support a brand made up of performance-oriented offerings (if GM restored Pontiac to what it used to be), so if it can't be what made it great, and since no one here would want to see it as re-badged division, what is it's purpose again? To have the name live forever? Kind of selfish if you ask me.

A division like Buick offers more of what I think consumers would want in that price range. Quality interiors, comfort, power and style. Pontiac was always about cheap power. These days people see a car and think "Sure this car has power, but that car has power and a better interior for equal money", in essence, they look for the better package. We all know that power isn't the only thing people shop for anymore. As I stated in my above posts, we're a different market in this day in age. Some things that were once relevant to more people, are now relevant to only few. It's about comfort and fuel efficiency these days, not raw power. The automaker that can offer those products with a comfortable pricetag in its target market, is the one who will net the most sales.

Let Pontiac die with some dignity, and please take Saab with it. I don't want to see their good names smeared in the mud any longer.

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The G8 would make a perfect Impala.

It's just ashame that 1.) GM has to this day no clue how to manage its brands beyond Chevrolet and to a lessor extent Cadillac, and 2.) Someone high up is playing favorites with the brands.

Edited by Dodgefan
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I think I've figured it out. It makes perfect sense. Saturn is the 'European influenced' brand what with the Opel-based models, and now Pontiac is going to be the 'Pacific Rim influenced' brand, with the Australian G8, Japanese Vibe, and now the Korean G3 ! :)

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I appreciate that you are trying to remain positive about Pontiac's future,

+1

I also don't think PCS is being overly negative or pessimistic. He is obviously in a position to receive information about GM's future plans and is simply trying to warn us that Pontiac's future isn't very bright and definitely not what we would want it to be.

Maybe not. But I think PCS is a part of the brain trust that appears to be the problem for Pontiac instead of the solution.

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By Some Loser

Mismanager, Pontiac Communications

Blah blah blah...

Blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah excellent fuel efficiency (27 mpg city, 34 mpg highway) blah blah blah blah

blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah, blah blahs.

34 mpg is not excellent fuel efficiency for something that small. It SUCKS.

The Cobalt XFE is claiming 34 mpg... and is twice the size. The Corolla gets 35 mpg and is even bigger. Yesh.

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34 mpg is not excellent fuel efficiency for something that small. It SUCKS.

The Cobalt XFE is claiming 34 mpg... and is twice the size. The Corolla gets 35 mpg and is even bigger. Yesh.

:fryingpan:

If you drive a 1.6 litre engine like you stole the car, of course your gas mileage is going to stink. People expect a certain degree of performance from their vehicles. The drivetrain can be tailored for whatever the marketing boys think the car needs. Case in point: the 3.4 in the older Impala (heavy, bigger) and the Alero/Grand Am. Same engine, same tranny, but the Alero/Grand AM has horrid fuel mileage; whereas the Impala was absolutely amazing.

Any 20 year old who buys a G3 because it is what he/she can 'afford' and then drive it like their daddy's Audi, is going to be in for quite a shock. Ditto for the Corolla.

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Since I left GM already since the current Pontiacs(once, my only favorite GM brand) are nothing more than Chevy crap re-badge and imports(with the exception of the Solstice, and current G6 that's to be replaced with another import soon), I just don't care if they closes or not. Surely, Pontiac and GM have succeeded in chasing me away from their future showrooms by killing all the 'DOMESTIC' masterpieces in place of the imported sh*ts and re-badged Chevy-crap leftovers. So, unless they bring back the AMERICAN made Grand Prix, Bonneville, even Firebird and GTO, I WANT them to close down, since I don't want to remember Pontiac as an import seller. Period. I just don't like what these clowns are doing these days pissing off of once a great brand that has heritage and history. I still think it was a mistake of killing Oldsmobile, and they are trying to REPEAT that same mistake again by shutting down Pontiac, so be it. I don't care anymore, since I already got my dream car that is a last breed of the true 'DOMESTIC' that was made in North America. Not some sh*tty Aussie import crap.

Edited by Diehard GrandPrix Fan
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Since I left GM already since the current Pontiacs(once, my only favorite GM brand) are nothing more than Chevy crap re-badge and imports(with the exception of the Solstice, and current G6 that's to be replaced with another import soon), I just don't care if they closes or not. Surely, Pontiac and GM have succeeded in chasing me away from their future showrooms by killing all the 'DOMESTIC' masterpieces in place of the imported sh*ts and re-badged Chevy-crap leftovers. So, unless they bring back the AMERICAN made Grand Prix, Bonneville, even Firebird and GTO, I WANT them to close down, since I don't want to remember Pontiac as an import seller. Period. I just don't like what these clowns are doing these days pissing off of once a great brand that has heritage and history. I still think it was a mistake of killing Oldsmobile, and they are trying to REPEAT that same mistake again by shutting down Pontiac, so be it. I don't care anymore, since I already got my dream car that is a last breed of the true 'DOMESTIC' that was made in North America. Not some sh*tty Aussie import crap.

I don't know how many times this has to be hammered in, but the G8 is a better car than anything Pontiac has had in decades.

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I don't know how many times this has to be hammered in, but the G8 is a better car than anything Pontiac has had in decades.

And a better car than Saab and Saturn have ever had.

Saab is useless in North America and Saturn is nothing but a classic case of throwing good money after bad. Saturn is, was, and always will be GM's worst mistake. It has cost us Oldsmobile, and if this current "plan" is followed, it may cost us Pontiac as well.

Saturn is a boat anchor dragging GM down.

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And a better car than Saab and Saturn have ever had.

Saab is useless in North America and Saturn is nothing but a classic case of throwing good money after bad. Saturn is, was, and always will be GM's worst mistake. It has cost us Oldsmobile, and if this current "plan" is followed, it may cost us Pontiac as well.

Saturn is a boat anchor dragging GM down.

GM's inability to manage its brands since the early 70's is what is dragging GM down IMHO. If GM knew how to manage the brands before it was cash-strapped, they could all have their place without competing with each other.

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Saab is useless in North America and Saturn is nothing but a classic case of throwing good money after bad. Saturn is, was, and always will be GM's worst mistake.

GM is GM's worst mistake.

Bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. That's what it boils down to. OK I get it, you don't like Saturn, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Here's mine.

What purpose would Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac and Chevy all serve in today's market? They all overlap. There is no need for slightly different variations of cars within the same automaker in today's market. I see it all as overhead cost that needs to be trimmed down. Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Buick, for the most part, are the same. Nothing substantiating differentiated them from eachother. They all shared engines and platforms, making it more of a choice of "Do I like the look of this car over that one, because they are otherwise identical". I woud like to see Buick injected with new life, as not everyone wants cadillac edginess or chevy boring, or saturn euro-feel. Pontiac, on the other hand, went from the excitement brand, to the brand that offers re-badges from Chevy, Toyota and Holden. But wait, they do have the solstice - a car with the same underpinnings as the Sky.

Lutz was good for a short time, bringing quality interiors and a few cool cars back into the GM fold, not to mention bringing some much-wanted ideas into the company, but his flavour seems to have worn off. He needs to be removed from the podium, along with Wagoner. Let's get someone in there willing to listen to what the public wants, rather than doing the things they THINK the public wants.

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Saturn killed Olds, I know it. I hate Saturn. Seriously if Saturn costs us Pontiac a brand that can get back to there glory with some work that is a bunch of $h!. The G8 even tho not made in NA is a true Pontiac is spirit, I love it and I am not a RWD guy. I say lets get through the tuff times and put some money into them giving then unique designs even if they share platforms GM can afford to do that.

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And a better car than Saab and Saturn have ever had.

Saab is useless in North America and Saturn is nothing but a classic case of throwing good money after bad. Saturn is, was, and always will be GM's worst mistake. It has cost us Oldsmobile, and if this current "plan" is followed, it may cost us Pontiac as well.

Saturn is a boat anchor dragging GM down.

I totally agree.

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Saturn didn't kill Olds at all, more like GM's decision making. Saturn was an experiment, and for the first few years it started doing well. If GM kept evolving Saturn based on it's philosophy, it would have kept turning a profit. Instead, they chose to starve their new division of R&D and marketing, and kept the same product for 11 years, except with minor refreshes. In the meantime, the japanese further advanced their lead to bring consumers a far superior car than Saturn's refreshed line could bring.

On the issue of Olds, again, what would a bran like Olds do in times like these? Your American economy is in a bad spot right now, the dollar is very weak, people are losing their jobs, houses and cars in the wake of a recession, but you want to keep a performance division around? It wasn't selling well even when the economy was decent.

These days, people are looking to squeeze by, so they turn to fuel efficient cars that can suit their needs. Performance isn't even in the cards these days. Why do you think Cadillac sales are in a slump? Not because the product is stale, but because that's not where the focus is these days.

Hate Saturn all you want, but I love the idea of driving an Opel-based vehicle over here in NA. My second car in 3-4 years time will be an 08 Astra. While it's not the quickest car in it's segment, it's definitely what appeals to me. It's decently quick with a manual, looks great, and handles wonderfully. I wouldn't ask for more than that personally.

But you can all hold onto your dreams of big, powerful RWD whatever cars to be parked in your driveways, Pontiac or otherwise. Sooner or later, the economy will catch up to you too, just as it has to everyone else already. Happy motoring.

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Hahaha... WHEN did Saturn EVER turn a profit? NEVER! My mother owned two SL2s, a '92 and a '97. She liked her '92 better, but both were good cars for her. GM LOST THEIR OPPORTUNITY LONG AGO to keep Saturn relevant. Saturn is an albatross now as ever... a misguided experiment and a waste of money. The corporation would have been much better served to put that money into better J-cars for their core divisions, their legacy divisions, instead of this expensive diversion which has done nothing to further GM's cause, then, now or ever.

Customers liked Saturn when they were separate from GM... now that Saturn is just another GM division sharing platforms... they have lost any reason to exist. THAT Saturn customer has moved on from GM, and they haven't captured anyone new. They're finished!

Edited by ocnblu
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How many stand alone Saturn dealerships still exist? The one where I live shares a dealership with one other GM division and a minor Japanese brand. The reason I'm asking this is because I wonder how expensive it would be to pull Saturn into Buick/Pontiac/GMC. This would give GM a strong midmarket premium dealer network with Buick taking the lead. Buick should be the high profile player in this network because it has the most premium image of the 4 brands as well as excellent quality/reliability survey scores (not to mention its popularity in China). With Buick in the lead as the volume member of the network, Saturn, Pontiac, and GMC could be transformed into focused sub-brands to complement Buick. North American built versions of Opel products could be widely used to form or augment the lineups for Buick, Saturn, and Pontiac to save ground up development costs. The network's Opel based products would be differentiated by body style, badging, and grille design.

As the volume member, Buick would sell sedans, wagons, and crossovers. Saturn would serve as an entry sub-brand for the network with a lineup of sensible smaller vehicles consisting of hatchbacks and MPVs. Pontiac would be transformed into a coupe and/or coupe-cabrio niche brand. GMC would revert back to its traditional role of premium truck/SUV outlet.

This strategy would give GM an economical way to establish a strong midmarket premium division. It would help GM avoid the following issues:

1) Discontinuing brands. Each brand would have a distinct purpose and identity in the midmarket premium network.

2) Rebadged clones. Since Pontiac would have a lineup consisting mostly of rebadged Opel coupe-cabrios, GM would not need to create any more rebadged Chevy clone products for this division.

3) Overlapping models. Since each brand in this network would be assigned specific body styles, there would be no model overlap in this network.

GM could duplicate this setup for Opel and Buick in China. Opel of China would align with Saturn in North America and Buick of China would align with Buick/Pontiac in North America (Pontiac's products would need to be absorbed into Buick in the Chinese market since Pontiac doesn't exist there). This would provide GM a cost efficient way to provide their most popular brand in China (Buick) with a wide range of brand appropriate products. Since GM is already giving Buick of China a rebadged Insignia sedan, why not also give them the Astra sedan, Tigra "TwinTop" roadster, Astra "TwinTop" coupe, and Antara crossover?

This isn't the best case scenario for Pontiac, but I know GM is financially strapped and worried about upcoming CAFE regulations. I think a 3 car lineup consisting of a rebadged Tigra "TwinTop" roadster, a rebadged Astra "TwinTop" coupe, and either a restyled G6 coupe/coupe-cabrio (Insignia inspired front/end treatment and interior) or rebadged Insignia "TwinTop" coupe (if GM would develop one; I think the Insignia's styling would make a nice base for such a product) would be a brand appropriate future lineup for Pontiac. I would much rather see a RWD based affordable performance lineup instead (like many of you), but this doesn't seem to be in the cards for Pontiac (I don't expect to see a next gen G8 or Solstice, unfortunately). The alternative I proposed is still preferable to rebadged Chevy clones or total extinction.

PCS: You don't have to say it; I know it's not going to happen. It's just a suggestion.

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:fryingpan:

If you drive a 1.6 litre engine like you stole the car, of course your gas mileage is going to stink. People expect a certain degree of performance from their vehicles. The drivetrain can be tailored for whatever the marketing boys think the car needs. Case in point: the 3.4 in the older Impala (heavy, bigger) and the Alero/Grand Am. Same engine, same tranny, but the Alero/Grand AM has horrid fuel mileage; whereas the Impala was absolutely amazing.

Any 20 year old who buys a G3 because it is what he/she can 'afford' and then drive it like their daddy's Audi, is going to be in for quite a shock. Ditto for the Corolla.

These are the manufacturers' freeway numbers. 'Driving it like you stole it' applies to sub-50 mph jackrabbit acceleration and teeth-pulling stopping. On the freeway, doing a steady 70, these cars need to get closer to 40.

I'm sure when the companies tested these, trying to get the highest numbers possible, they drove them like you 103 year old great grand aunt Ethel.

BTW, I drive my girlfriends Corolla 'like it stole it'... and it still gets killer mileage _and_ doesn't fall apart flying over gigantic potholes. I can't figure out what magic Toyota put in this thing...

I still hate Toyotas, however.

My beater '95 Caprice wagon gets 19.5 mpg in the mix of freeway and top-fuel-stoplight drags I do. At $4 a gallon, 20K miles a year, that's $4K a year. The G3 would average about 30 mpg, giving it the benefit of the doubt. Again, 20K miles at $4 a gallon... $2.6K a year. $200 bucks a month is a premium I pay for size, safety, comfort and speed (yes, my Caprice is quite quick) and it's paid for. How much is the monthly payment on a G3?

Yeah, yeah, I know most people want a new car, blah blah... but even comparing the G3 to a G6, the mileage is not compelling, which is my point.

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Saturn is an albatross now as ever... a misguided experiment and a waste of money. The corporation would have been much better served to put that money into better J-cars for their core divisions, their legacy divisions, instead of this expensive diversion which has done nothing to further GM's cause, then, now or ever.

Better J cars? Legacy divisions? Do you hear yourself? Better yet, why hasn't anyone answered my questions yet in my previous posts? I would STILL like to know how anyone thinks GM could have differentiated Olds, Pontiac, Buick, CHevy in today's market? My point is that it was inevitable. Olds was axed because there was no further direction for them to follow. Today, no one looks for "budget performance" which seems to be what Pontiac has stood for throughout it's history, so it as well, should go. It's no longer needed. What Pontiac does offer right now at this point in time, can be better used in other divisions.

Customers liked Saturn when they were separate from GM... now that Saturn is just another GM division sharing platforms... they have lost any reason to exist. THAT Saturn customer has moved on from GM, and they haven't captured anyone new. They're finished!

Um, Saturn was never seperate from GM. They were always under that umbrella, whether or not people knew it. And really, doesn't it say much that people flocked to a brand like Saturn and not other "known" divisions of GM because they were looking for a different kind of manufacturer (not realizing Saturn was in the GM fold). Obviously GM failed to attract such people with it's "known brands" like Chevy, Pontiac, Geo, etc. Ocnblu, your statement about THE saturn customer who has moved away from GM and no one come back in it's place, well, that's B.S. I am a 3 time Saturn customer and I've enjoyed my experience with them quite a bit. People are starting to say they like the new products that are available through Saturn now. The cheap stigma is finally starting to wear off, so its just a matter of time before even more fresh faces enter the showrooms. Just because several on this board dislike Saturn because they think it was an experiment gone wrong, doesn't mean that Saturn would be any better not existing. Personally I think that, although not profitable as of yet, Saturn has done rather decent. If you take things into account like how it has a small percentage of dealer networks across Canada and the U.S. compared to GM's other divisions, the lack of ad dollars gone into Saturn's public perception (hey, you can have one great car on your hands, but if the public isn't aware it exists or is competitive, who's going to buy it?)

Saturn has, for the past 17 years, been the red-headed stepchild of GM. They were the sole reason the customer satisfaction ratings throughout all of GM's divisions have vastly improved (because everyone now follows Saturn's low-pressure sales tactics), they were the test-experiments for the rest of GM's product line (L-series created to introduce the Vectra to N/A, Aura to bring over newer Gen Vectra platform, Ion redline to iron out the kinks for Chevy's Cobalt SS/SC, Vue to introduce Theta chassis before Nox and Torrent). The list goes on.

You guys can say what you want about Saturn, but the truth is that without Saturn, I wouldn't have put my faith in GM as a company either, because I prefer to own smaller cars myself, and when the alternative to my original S-series was a cavalier or sunfire, I was going to otherwise end up at Honda. My purchase of an SC1 with it's great gas mileage, was what drew me back into the GM fold. I love driving my 08 Vue. Sure it's heavy, but it kills the nox and torrent in refinement, handling and overall driving characteristics. I can't wait to own an Astra when the time comes to get a second vehicle for my personal commute to work. The thought of it excites me. It's such a great little car, that, to me, re-energizes GM's small car segment. Personally, I couldn't care less about the cobalt and G5 since they were identical in feel to my previous ION. Good cars, but I want to move forward in my car buying decisions, not backwards.

Back to the topic at hand, the saving of the Pontiac brand, and why it wouldn't be cut out for today's consumer.

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Saturn has failed. GM screwed that brand up and has brought them in too close. If Pontiac goes to spare Saturn I will be so pissed. Pontiac sells so many more vehicles than Saturn and they have a bunch of rebadges. Where as Saturn gets Opels and they can't move them out the door.

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Better J cars? Legacy divisions? Do you hear yourself? Better yet, why hasn't anyone answered my questions yet in my previous posts? I would STILL like to know how anyone thinks GM could have differentiated Olds, Pontiac, Buick, CHevy in today's market? My point is that it was inevitable. Olds was axed because there was no further direction for them to follow. Today, no one looks for "budget performance" which seems to be what Pontiac has stood for throughout it's history, so it as well, should go. It's no longer needed. What Pontiac does offer right now at this point in time, can be better used in other divisions.

Um, Saturn was never seperate from GM. They were always under that umbrella, whether or not people knew it. And really, doesn't it say much that people flocked to a brand like Saturn and not other "known" divisions of GM because they were looking for a different kind of manufacturer (not realizing Saturn was in the GM fold). Obviously GM failed to attract such people with it's "known brands" like Chevy, Pontiac, Geo, etc. Ocnblu, your statement about THE saturn customer who has moved away from GM and no one come back in it's place, well, that's B.S. I am a 3 time Saturn customer and I've enjoyed my experience with them quite a bit. People are starting to say they like the new products that are available through Saturn now. The cheap stigma is finally starting to wear off, so its just a matter of time before even more fresh faces enter the showrooms. Just because several on this board dislike Saturn because they think it was an experiment gone wrong, doesn't mean that Saturn would be any better not existing. Personally I think that, although not profitable as of yet, Saturn has done rather decent. If you take things into account like how it has a small percentage of dealer networks across Canada and the U.S. compared to GM's other divisions, the lack of ad dollars gone into Saturn's public perception (hey, you can have one great car on your hands, but if the public isn't aware it exists or is competitive, who's going to buy it?)

Saturn has, for the past 17 years, been the red-headed stepchild of GM. They were the sole reason the customer satisfaction ratings throughout all of GM's divisions have vastly improved (because everyone now follows Saturn's low-pressure sales tactics), they were the test-experiments for the rest of GM's product line (L-series created to introduce the Vectra to N/A, Aura to bring over newer Gen Vectra platform, Ion redline to iron out the kinks for Chevy's Cobalt SS/SC, Vue to introduce Theta chassis before Nox and Torrent). The list goes on.

You guys can say what you want about Saturn, but the truth is that without Saturn, I wouldn't have put my faith in GM as a company either, because I prefer to own smaller cars myself, and when the alternative to my original S-series was a cavalier or sunfire, I was going to otherwise end up at Honda. My purchase of an SC1 with it's great gas mileage, was what drew me back into the GM fold. I love driving my 08 Vue. Sure it's heavy, but it kills the nox and torrent in refinement, handling and overall driving characteristics. I can't wait to own an Astra when the time comes to get a second vehicle for my personal commute to work. The thought of it excites me. It's such a great little car, that, to me, re-energizes GM's small car segment. Personally, I couldn't care less about the cobalt and G5 since they were identical in feel to my previous ION. Good cars, but I want to move forward in my car buying decisions, not backwards.

Back to the topic at hand, the saving of the Pontiac brand, and why it wouldn't be cut out for today's consumer.

You are simply way off of the mark.

-Saturn always was and still is an ill-advised, money-losing experiment.

-Saturn has a tiny distribution network

-The Satopels aren't exactly lighting up the sales charts.

-The money wasted on creating Saturn is a huge part of why so many of the products of that time were substandard - Saturn ate their budgets. Billions were wasted creating Saturn.

- Saturn has never, and likely will never, offer GM a return on the massive investment GM has repeatedly put into it.

Those are facts.

Don't believe me?

Ask PCS!

My position on this is not based on emotion as you charge. If any brand should be starved out of existence, it should be Saturn. And If we must have some opels here, they should have been Buicks and Maybe a Pontiac.

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My position on this is not based on emtion as you charge. If any brand should be starved out of existence, it should be Saturn. And If we must have some opels here, they should have been Buicks and Maybe a Pontiac.

Or SAABs

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Saturn has failed. GM screwed that brand up and has brought them in too close. If Pontiac goes to spare Saturn I will be so pissed. Pontiac sells so many more vehicles than Saturn and they have a bunch of rebadges. Where as Saturn gets Opels and they can't move them out the door.

Saturn and Pontiac have to be viewed as separate entities. They're different cases because of the dealer networks. Shutting Saturn down would cost GM billions and put anyone who works at a stand-alone Saturn dealership out of work. My local dealer is owned by a group that also owns the Acura dealership with which the Saturn dealer shares a lot. If Saturn were closed down, the more competent employees in the Saturn bulding could go over to the Acura building with little problem, but there would still be job losses. Pontic is just one head of a three-headed beast, and I'm sure the people who run B-P-G dealerships wouldn't mind if one brand was gone, it would free up floor space in the showroom and make less product for their salespeople and service staff to study.

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