ponchoman49

Glad you liked my ideal Buick lineup. I do agree that the 3800 engine is a good one and that it has provided many trouble free miles of service. The main 3 reasons I want Buick to drop this engine are that it hasn't updated the engines power, NVH characteristics are not one of it's strong points in the new models and it's lack of hp compared to just about every other engine of it's size actually works against it with todays feature laden, overweight vehicles in the fuel economy department. Just look at the Lucerne as an example. That detuned 197 hp 3800 now has to deal with 300 or so extra pounds of weight and the same lazy 2.86:1 gears just to maintain the lower 19/28 mpg figures compared to it's LeSabre predecessor with 205 hp, 2.86 gears and 20/29 mileage. I think it would take some serious efferts to re-engineer this motor to say LS1 standards and anything over 230 hp which would still have this engine behind the competition, although I don't understand why people these days need such powerhouse cars with officers crawling over every square inch of the streets dying to hand out speeding tickets. Still I would have liked to see what a 3800 series IV could have been like since the series III was such a dissapointment in NA form.

Word to Buick: drop the 3800 and 4 speed automatics already! Those 2 drivetrain components are seriously holding sales back. When I drive a 2007 model, I don't expect it to have less performance and the same transmission as a 1996 model. Example- 2007 Buick Lucerne with 3800 series III/4 speed automatic. HP-197, torque 227, mileage 19/28 vs 1996 LeSabre 3800 series II/4 speed automatic. HP 205, torque 230, mileage 19/30. It is incomprehensible that Buick's flagship comes to battle so seriously outdated and underpowered. True they offer a more powerful V8 but that engine gets far worse mileage and is slower than most of it's competitors. If Buick wants to broaden it's appeal then I suggest the following recipe for MY 2008: 1) LaCrosse: new front end treatment and more distinctive rear end, drop 3800 and instead use AFM 3900 with 233 hp and 3.05:1 gears for 21/31 mileage figures. Optional 3.6 should be at 252 hp levels ala Saturn Aura and a reduction to 3.29:1 gears to improve highway mileage to 28-29. Axe chrome bar on the dash as it is very distracting in the sun. Cloth seat fabric needs to be 2 shades darker and dark blue with some tan accents should be offered as an option. CX and CXL suspensions need to be firmed up as does the steering. Also the CXS needs power recliners on both sides and a few more standard itmes to make it justify it's expensive price tag. Base models should all have std alloy wheels and the split bench seat option should be relegated to fleets and base model deletes only. 2) Lucerne: Non intrusive trunk hinges, body colored exterior mirror housings, soft touch dash, telescoping wheel, wood trim on power window switches and split folding rear seat should all be standard equipment. 3800 needs to go like now and the standard engine should be the Enclaves 275 hp version of the 3.6 mated to a 6 speed automatic. The Northstar V8 should be upgraded to the 292 hp version but with more economical gearing tied to the 6 speed automatic to raise highway mileage to 27 or 28 mpg. Leather steering wheel should be optional on CX. New alloy wheels are needed on the base CX model and the CXS suspension should be standard on all versions except the very base models. Also power recliners should be standard on all CXL models. 3)Terazza- dropped 4) Rendevous- dropped 5) Ranier- dropped 6) Riviera coupe re-introduced with rear drive, stunning Buick styling and an interior of rich design. 3.6 with 275 hp standard and 292 Northstar optional paired to 6 speed automatic with manual shift mode. Bristle it with every conceivable do-dad such as blue tooth and keyless start but also keep it reliable. 7) Velite- get this thing out now! Put some trim and normal door handles on the sides and give it an exclusive high output DI 3.6 V6. Price it reasonable and it will fly off dealer lots. Roadmaster full size: Zeta based underpinnings combined with old world Buick elegance and style. No boring slab sided wonders. Offer full blown 400 hp LS2 V8's as options with std 3.6. Offer interiors with colors and elegance and high build quality. 9) Enclave- pretty good as is but should have some side trim on the doors. 10) Grand National 2 door coupe- placed on the upcoming chassis used for the new GTO but with styling touches reminicent of the great 80's GN 2 door coupe. Since Buick will no longer be making the 3800 engine maybe a turbocharged version of the 3.6 should be employed with pavement pounding hp and torque. This would of course be a niche vehicle and a dream one at that. As long as Buick follows the 5 golden rules below will it succeed. 1) Quit trying to style cars like Lexus 2) No slab sided boring cars with no exterior trim or character lines. Leave these to the Asians 3) Expresive american styling 4) Cutting edge powertrains 5) Do use Lexus as a benchmark for quality and customer service

164 hp and 35 highway mileage! What the hell happened? Thats 3 LESS hp than the lowest powered 2.4 ecotec in the G6 and 1 mpg MORE highway than the G6, Malibu, Camry automatic and Sonota 4 cylinder models. Why would anybody pay more money for this car when any of those models will sell for thousands less and have less complex drivetrains that have close to or more hp and get about the same highway mileage? Note to GM powertrain; GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well it looks like the geniuses at GM powertrain have done it again. A detuned 2.4 Ecotec, a 5th variation of the pushrod 3500 with 215 hp and a 3.6 with less hp than last years Aura! They did finally put the 6 speed automatic tranny with both V6's but why not the Ecotec? It really is sad to see that 2 models years later GM can't even match a 2006 RAV 4 269 hp V6 with the top of the line 3.6.

Are they selling that bad? I see hordes of CSV's on the road everyday. The Buick version with the now std 3900 is not too bad looking.

How totally predictable! After all these same morons chose the but ugly Prius as COTY in 2004. Thats why they chose the Camry, because it has a hybrid version for the tree saving humper bunch that makes up Import Trends staff these days! It's funny but so many people in the consumer write up section of Edmunds, Yahoo and MSN have made complaints in one form or another on the 07 Camry from it's quirky, i'll shift when i'm damn good and ready transmission, to it's poor interior fits to break downs, small trunks, soggy handling etc that I find it hard to believe that Toyota Trend didn't at least get a little daring and chose the Altima which is a more impressive car than the bland Camry any day of the week! 90 percent of the Camrys I see on the road are LE 4 cylinder automatics with gray haired old folks behind the wheel. Guess that explains why they chose the new Camry; because they couldn't see how ugly it really is!

Now if only they they would fix all the problems with the Impala/Monte, Lucerne and LaCrosse which are there mainstream mid sizers.

If there cars are anything like the junk that is made there we don't have much to worry about when they make it to our shores. 2 made in China Hoover vacuums less than a year old with shot motors 2 new China rotors from Autozone-one defective and out of round for a 2002 Impala that needed a brake job Made in China rechargable light had to be returned to Big Lots because the fully charged battery lasted about 3 minutes and died off And the last one was hilarious- a made in China prelit christmas tree that turned parts of it'self on and off at random with no flasher bulbs present when the cat walked under the tree. All of this in one weeks time! Gotta love our made in China quality products. And WUBYA thinks that WE need to make relevant products!

Oh look, another Toyota rated near the bottom of the barrel. And our favorite rag CR just did a small car comparo and ranked the Yaris dead last. Toyoduh: Moving backwards

The original 3800 design debuted for 1988 as the top end motor for the Olds 98/Toronado, Buick Park Ave/Riviera and Pontiac Bonneville SE and SSE. This motor differed from the previous 3.8 liter V6 which was never reffered to as a 3800 by it's centrally located piston bores compared to the old engines offset split pin design and oil pan mounted balance shaft. It also featured 165 hp vs 150 and 210 torque vs 200 for the older engine. This version of the 3800 series I ran from 1988-1991 as was generally a bullitt proof design. Then in 1991 an upgraded 170 hp sequential port injected version of the series I debuted in the Park Ave/Riv and 98/Toro and later in the restyled 88 and LeSabre. This motor was good too except that it didn't have an EGR valve which caused problems of it's own. In 1993 the engine was given a newly designed plastic intake and a slight upgrade in torque to 225, was named tuned port, and was generally a good motor. These engines were better than the newer series II engines but did suffer leakes with high mileage and eventual intake replacements. The series II motor debuted for 1995 with less reciprocating mass, 5800 rpm redline instead of 5500 a new style upper and lower intake design, raized compression ratio and a host of other changes that raized output to 205 hp and 230 torque. This is the one to look out for if your considering a car with one. Oddly the 1995 LeSabre and Regal did not come with this engine but the Park Ave, Riv, Olds 98/88 and Pontiac Bonneville did. The dustbuster vans also did not get the series II motors and kept the old Series I tuned port version until the new 3400 replaced it in 1996. The series II lasted until 2005 in a variety of products and from my understanding all factory engines could have the intake issue at just about anytime in there life. In 2004 a series III 3800 was developed with a return to composite steel upper intake and redesigned lower intake, drive by wire throttle and a different computer and special digital bus wire harness first seen in the 2000 Impala/Monte that defies after market radios and even speakers. Curiously this new series III engine was rated at 5 less hp than the original series II engine(8 less in the Lucerne) but has the same torque. Also note that the supercharged 3800 debuted in the 1991 Park Ave with but 205 hp and quickly went up to 225 in 1994 and took on the series II upgrades in 1996. A series III Sc 3800 with 260 hp came alongside the NA motor but in the 2004 and up Grand Prix only with an upgraded supercharger. No other car got this engine which makes one wonder why they even bothered with the limitations of the 4T65 tranny and all. In all the Buick built 3.8 liter V6 has a long history behind it and in 1975 when GM bought back the blueprints of this engine from Jeep it under went a continual number of changes, upgrades and improvements to where it is today. It's a shame GM let it languish so long with no real design changes. Personally I would have liked to see how this engine would have responded to the same changes that Chevy does to the LS series of small blocks. This was supposed to happen in the coming years but someone somewhere pulled the plug for newer designed DOHC powerplants.

The 3.6 liter/6 speed auto combination is a thoroughbread setup with 0-60 in 6.2 seconds according to C&D which I confirmed on a little test drive last weekend. That compares to the Camry which does the same sprint to 60 despite having 16 more rated hp. I didn't drive the base 3500 but have had experience with this engine in a variety of other GM models. The old 4 speed automatic holds this engine back some and the 3.6 makes much sweeter sounds compared to the 3500's raspy growl which I understand has been tamed in the Aura.

Well said!

The difference is that those vehicles you listed are selling and the rebadged Monaro with a Pontiac grille was a huge flop that still sees new 05 and 06 models languishing on dealers lots. These new Holdens all look alike and have styling that is done to death with the same old slab sided boringness of a BMW or Audi. If Pontiac is going to bring this one over they will need to inject some excitement in the sheetmetal and some color in the interior. Not everyone wants a BMW clone with rock hard suspension, austere interior and slab sided boring exteriors!

The 07 GTP coupes are easy to spot real quickly. Just look for the 20/28 rating for the 3.6/auto which is how 95% seems to be equipped and the decontented bodyside moldings on the 2 door coupes. We have many in the upstate, NY area.

Just further proof that the same yuppies that write "best fast food places to eat" and which appliance is best don't live in the real world when it comes to car reviews.

Changing the name would be silly! People don't complain about Toyota using the name Camry for decades or Honda with the Accord. And GM's gigantic name changing that took place over the past several years has been met with lukewarm response in sales of some models and even certain editors have questioned it. I know a lot of people and many of them drive the current generation 04-07 style Malibu and love them. Other than a few electric steering issues with the first run of 04's all have been very reliable, very good on gas, very good features for the money and the Maxx is praized for it's utility. Now granted most of these people are not Import Humpers that get a woody for integrated dashes like the children of today do but some of these Malibu owners are former import owners that wanted something different like the Maxx or just wanted better mileage and more style than there 2002 Camry with it's overrated 3.0 liter V6 that doesn't put out the hp or fuel economy it was advertized at.

Neither the Impala or new style Malibu should move much or at all in price from where they are now if they want to remain competitive. Let Buick have at the upper 25K-35K range with there full size RWD sedan with the Malibu staying in the 18K-25K range and the Impala continuing it's 22K-30K field. Buick could even command 32K from it's new top of the line Epsilon II LaCrosse with high output 3.6 liter/6 speed automatic trans without too many snickers from ours truly at C&D.

Newsflash to Cadillac: We need this car now! The current bland slab sided car we have now is ok for the BMW driver but many of us long for a dose of luxury to our Caddys. And that interior looks better than ours too. For the money Cadillac charges for this car you would have thought that they would have figured this out before hand!

Funny how now that GM has an engine with more power and torque than the vaunted RAV4 that nobody cares anymore yet everyone bitches up a storm about the China 3400. Get over yourselves people! These are going to be plenty quick haulers with improved handling and braking and interiors. The 2007 models set the stage with improved dashboards, stabilitrak, rear disk brakes, more std features and a normal top to bottom floor shifter and these 08's will finally address the engine issues making these some of the better mid sized crossovers out there. Why would anybody need more than 275hp in this size vehicle? The current "underpowered" 3400 version does mid 8 second 0-60 runs so I would think that with 90 more hp we would be looking in the mid six second range. Anything faster than this is just plain suicidal in a top heavy vehicle of this type and judging by all the speed related accidents\rollovers and deaths with trucks and sport utes, more power is really not needed! Our insurance rates are ridiculously high as it is!

The 3800's for the most part do run well past 200K easily and indeed are a great motor. But I have seen tons of them fail and have to be replaced. A good friend has been selling GM southern cars almost exclusively since the 70's so has seen first hand what seems to last and what fails. We have had numerous series II motors with as little as 60K with knocking bottom ends due to failed intake manifolds. Point being that anything can last forever or fail an early death. Even the 3100/3400 aren't immune. Some have over 200K and some are splitting camshafts with blown intakes. Anything is possible.

I currently own a 2002 Intrigue but it is the base GX model. It is fully optioned with the split rear seats, power drivers seat, keyless entry and leather wheel. It currently has about 66k on the clock and drives well. The only thing I have done to it is a passenger side rear wheel bearing. I will have to take it in for the intermediate steering shaft lube kit upgrade because the steering sometimes transmits shudders and transmits looseness through but otherwise it has been bullitt proof. The 3.5 Shortstar has been a most enjoyable engine and I have always preffered it to any of the 3800 cars I have owned for it's greater smoothness and quietness. It also has never suffered the intake issues that my 3800 series II cars did and consistently averages 25-26 mpg and 30 plus on the open road with the base 3.05:1 gears. I recently rented a base 2006 Lacrosse for comparison and liked my Olds much better overall. The Buick had odd darty steering, uninspired exterior sheetmetal, a softer ride and worse handling, slower accelleration(not surprising since the 3800 puts out 15 less hp, has 2.86:1 gears vs my 3.05 gears and 200 lbs more curbweight), odd unresponsive throttle unless you mashed the pedal to the floor and an uninspired base interior with rental grade bench seats with plain light colored mouse fur cloth material. Buick would have been better off rebadging the Intrigue and sticking a Buick grille on it than what they currently have IMO!

And I normally agree with Bob's decisions! In this circumstance he gets a solid F!

Hasn't GM learned that rebadging a Holden and installing a Pontiac grille does NOT a Pontiac make!

What a sad looking odd duck of a car. I really expected better from Chrysler. I predict sales will be even lower than the current Sebring. And to show how poor Chrysler quality control is, I just checked one out at a local dealer in Upstate, NY. The drivers side had a bodyside molding and the passenger side did not! This was a brand spanking new car fresh off the truck with pastic on the seats! How in the world did this thing get past inspection with this gaffe?

Corrected version: Memo for GM: Stop putting lift kits on all of your passenger vehicles and plain slab sides with no door protection. Lift kits for truck are good, not for passenger cars and sports cars and plain slab sides are good for sports cars and performance models but not luxury Caddys!