Tell GM what you think about Buick

[buickguy]

Bob Lutz talks about the Enclave

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/

[bring_BUICK_back]

All I have to say to Bob Flutz is that Buick needs products. Yes the Enclave is a good start, but why is it not comming now. Buick has made some great concepts that have never seen the light of day. I am sick and tired of Chevy, Caddilac & Saturn getting products while Buick sits like a dead duck. So Bob Flutz if you or any of your flunkies are listening, BRING BUICK BACK

[AxelTheRed]

*clears throat*

BRING A BUICK ASSEMBLY PLANT BACK TO FLINT!

Seriously, build the Velite here or something.

Edited December 1, 2006 by AxelTheRed

[LucerneOwner]

I was a very happy 1999 LeSabre Ltd (original) owner, and traded for a used 2006 Lucerne CX in Aug'06; wanted, above all, a smooth, quiet ride; I got better handling, but have mixed feelings about alleged 'quiet-tuned' ride: yes, wind noise is impressively diminished, but road noise is about the same (after switching from Bridgestones to Goodyear ComforTreds), but engine noise is greater than LeSabre, a disappointment. Lucerne had a really annoying momentary drive train vibration from a dead start when I got it ... dealer replacied 1 of 4 engine mounts and re-aligned engine: much improved, but still have a little vibration under certain acceleration/load conditions from a dead start ... never had such a problem with the old LeSabre. The Lucerne is much more stylish, especially w/WW tires to make 16" wheels SEEM bigger than they are, and to dress-up the appearance generally ... I HATE the current trend to BW tires ... looks cheap!. On the down side, there are annoying (dangerous?) blind spots looking rearward and from the thick front roof supports. I'm disappointed I couldn't get the automatic temperature control with the CX, but had to get a CX because I wanted cloth seats, not leather, and because I wanted the smaller 16" wheels for a softer/quieter ride. Guess you can't have everything. Oh yes, I seem to be getting better mileage (averaging 25MPG vs 23MPG with LeSabre, even tho nominally same engine/xmission). I'm a light-footed, 67-yr-old driver, try to time stoplights, etc., to maximize mileage.

Edited December 1, 2006 by LucerneOwner

[Flybrian]

I know many G-bodies tend to exhibit a slight front-end vibration felt through the steering wheel around 60-80mph. Its some design thing and nothing dangerous, but slightly noticable yet it fades away above 85-90...or, um, so I've heard...

Congrats on your Lucerne, though. Glad to hear that problem was fixed and welcome to the forum!

[caddycruiser]

Based on the last 2 posts, my experience:

This summer, when we briefly considered replacing the Suburban with a Lucerne, I had two extended test drives in an '06 CXL V6. Loved the look, the room, and the feel that just exudes quality through and through, but I did notice weird things. The car I drove only had about 10-20 miles on it.

-I'm used to the 3.8L, at least the Series II, being in my grandmother's Intrigue, an '02 LeSabre rental we had for a month, and a '99 LeSabre owned by a customer of mine. The typical smooth and torquey rock, and also very quiet except for a minor pushrod rumble. HOWEVER, in the Lucerne I drove, the same smoothness and torque was there, but it kinda shocked me how loud it was right off the line. Just had a strange growl to it that kinda made you go "huh?", that roared right at take off, and then you'd never hear it again until a downshift for more power, and it was back to a lighter extent--sounded just like a hole in a muffler, but that would come and go. All 3 of the older 3.8L's I was used to roared, but nothing like this car would do. The off the line growl wasn't really even something I'd classify as a nice rumble, just weird. The rest of the car was S-I-L-E-N-T though, so that might have been a small part, but I still swear that 3.8L had a too loud gruff that I've never known before.

-The car was smooth and solid as a rock, but at least with the CXL V6 I drove, there was a REALLY bad vibration right when I would hit 55. Not really much of anything below or above that, but a noticeable front end shaking you could see and feel in the wheel. This was something I know tends to be a common G-body oddity that a lot of owners & dealer shops have dealt with over the years, but it was still really strange for a brand new car. I told the salesman, but he just said "Oh, it's been sitting for a while and sometimes rust builds up on the rotors." Maybe if I felt it in braking, yes, but this was definately a front end suspension and/or mount issue.

Still, loved the car, but just had to comment since someone else has noticed similar things! Best part was watching the steady 33-36 mpg at 55 on the instant mpg DIC function... ...that's DEFINATELY a selling point.

Edited December 2, 2006 by caddycruiser

[turbo200]

Buick needs higher prices in order to incorporate the level of finish and desirability of the Enclave into cars. It needs forward thinking, a higher level of fit and finish, a higher level of class, cars that are relevant, and something totally different from Lucerne and Lacrosse. Lucerne is a decent enough car but isn't relevant against cars like the Lexus ES, which has most of the space/utility and better looks/interior quality/overall refinement. The ES is bland imo, just think, Buick and GM used to be renowned for design sophistication, and now they are relegated behind a bland Japanese car. The Lucerne is too derivative, too plain, too cheaply constructed on the inside, too reliant on bling to offset the conservative look, and uses a platform with archaic proportions.

Buick needs more forward thinking cars, that car appeal to Jaguar owners, Audi intenders, Lexus loyalists, MB followers. It needs luxury, it needs exclusivity, it needs power, it needs curves, it needs a supreme level of fit and finish, it needs daring looks, it needs distinct looks, and it needs to be the best of everything. GM can continue to deliver second tier products, and its brands will always be the last to be considered. OR they can start to appeal to the core of the market by delivering products that are worth something [in the same vein the Enclave is worth a lot visually].

[caddycruiser]

Agreed^^.

A lot more voluptuous, stunning cars with gorgeous lines and materials inside and out, and a level of performance under the skin that draws a great balance between power and refinement. Right now, they're "getting there", but still have a lot of things that need to happen.

Ditch the Lacrosse and replace it with a real Lexus ES and Acura TL killer (it can do both, soft luxury and sharper performance), revise the Lucerne with a more elegant face and other revised look details, as well as a more refined and powerful V6 and a better 6-spd. The FWD in the latter is still one issue, but with proper revisions to the car, it wouldn't be too big of an issue. Add a real RWD V8 flagship, too.

I can still see Buick becoming the American Lexus, with similar attention to quality and refinement, but also a lot more passion and expressiveness to the designs--no fancy Camrys with a soft feel, RWD sedans that have the right guts but are tuned to feel more robotic than anything, etc.

[ehaase]

If the Enclave succeeds, then maybe we'll see some sedans comparable to Lexus. If the Enclave fails, I can see Buick either becoming nothing more than plush Chevrolet or imports from China.

Edited December 2, 2006 by ehaase

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I'm really optimistic on the Enclave-unlike the average, boring VUE (which we already knew about), the Enclave is a styling knockout, with a good powertrain, lots of potential, and more passenger and cargo room than any premium car-based crossover SUV-of course, it better have it, since its now the largest! Starting with the 2010 LaCrosse, the sedans (and hopefully wagon, coupe, convertible, etc.) body styles need to be significantly differentiated with sleek, Buick-like styling (see LaCrosse/Cielo/Signia/Velite concepts and Enclave), but also with far higher standard/optional equipment lists than comparable Chevy, Saturn, and Pontiac cousins-and not to entrench on Cadillac's territory that is. I believe it can be done. Lucerne's on the right track, but needs a fancier interior and more Buick-like styling. You might ask, since I have a gripe about everything it seemes, what do I have against the Enclave? That dated steering wheel! Otherwise, looks spot-on, just add some colors and get it out! I and everyone else here can't wait to see it!

[MyerShift]

More products with sleek, passionate and attractive design.

A better budget for improved interior materials. Most of the dash of the lucerne is much harder than any of that in the LaCrosse, which is both bland and unattractive.

[mrmonte]

They should take a look at any of their line ups from the mid sixties right up through the early eighties when it was hard for them to build a bad looking car. Thats what they need . As a current Buick owner I would certainly consider another no question about it but it must have great styling.

[ZL-1]

Buick has reason to be proud of what they accomplished with the Enclave. Now let's do something similar with the NG LaCrosse and Lucerne

[trinacriabob]

Buick needs higher prices in order to incorporate the level of finish and desirability of the Enclave into cars. It needs forward thinking, a higher level of fit and finish, a higher level of class, cars that are relevant, and something totally different from Lucerne and Lacrosse. Lucerne is a decent enough car but isn't relevant against cars like the Lexus ES, which has most of the space/utility and better looks/interior quality/overall refinement. The ES is bland imo, just think, Buick and GM used to be renowned for design sophistication, and now they are relegated behind a bland Japanese car. The Lucerne is too derivative, too plain, too cheaply constructed on the inside, too reliant on bling to offset the conservative look, and uses a platform with archaic proportions.

Buick needs more forward thinking cars, that car appeal to Jaguar owners, Audi intenders, Lexus loyalists, MB followers. It needs luxury, it needs exclusivity, it needs power, it needs curves, it needs a supreme level of fit and finish, it needs daring looks, it needs distinct looks, and it needs to be the best of everything. GM can continue to deliver second tier products, and its brands will always be the last to be considered. OR they can start to appeal to the core of the market by delivering products that are worth something [in the same vein the Enclave is worth a lot visually].

223014[/snapback]

Buick is obviously trying to balance risk and reward, so to speak. It is trying to venture toward that zone you speak of (risk) but wants to be loyal to its core market (reward). While I am not the traditional Buick buyer in demographic terms, I am awed by the reliability of their vehicles and will buy another. Yet, I don't want to pony up $ 40K for a car since I don't have it...I'd rather be in the $ 25K range. Maybe the Buick line could handle a little bit of bifurcation with Olds being gone...that is, expanding it to anchor the Buick segment and the upper end Euro-touring sedan/crossover. Also, where do you strategically stop so as to avoid cannibalization between this and the Cadillac brand? That needs to be looked at.

Let's not be so harsh on the LaX and the Lucerne. They are very competent vehicles. However, the execution could be better. The LaX has some interior quirks that are old school (the mousefur, yikes) and the Lucerne, in my mind, has poor ergonomics up front which don't involve the driver the way that a touring sedan would. Still, they are leaps from what preceded them, so Buick needs to keep going. More provocative and innovative styling combined with the current levels of reliability would serve them well.

By the way, I had a LaCrosse for 1 week and 2200 km (1400 miles, more or less) in the Montreal area about a month ago and it was a very likeable car. Except for a couple of shortcomings (the fabric, the mousefur and that stupid ass grille up front), this is a great value for the money...that's my opinion.

[wjfox]

I grew up in Buicks. The first car I ever drove was a Buick, the first car that I owned was a Buick, the first new car that I purchased was Buick. I have Buick in my veins but right now Buick doesn't build a car that is relevant to me. I prefer smaller more nimble cars, not Lesabre/Park Ave./ Lucerne sized cars. I was excited in 1995 when Buick was showing the XP2000 (I think) show car, that eventually becase the Opel Omega, Cadillac Catera and big Holdens. I drive a Catera Sport now.

I think Enclave is a return to Buick style, and I'd like to see them keep that coming. I like the sound of Buick being the American Lexus. If Buick had kept building the American Buick of old, Lexus might never have gotten the foot hold it has here.

I've read other comments that say Buick should stick to the bigger cars. I disagree. Over the years the Special then Skylark, Century and Regal sold well, but only when they were competitive and high quality. I think there is room in the Buick line to compete with the IS 300 or 350, ES, GS and LS series cars and I think the Enclave is a better shot at the RX than the Rendezvous was.

So what I want to see from Buick is that they stick to the plan of being the American Lexus, and thus can compete witht Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar and Infinity. This will take excellent platforms well executed to be high quality and durable. There is still time to get their reputation back, but they don't have forever. I remember great (and one terrible) Buick in my parents garage, my kids don't remember any Buicks in my garage. I've been mostly a Pontiac buyer for years because the mid-size Buicks weren't particularly sophisticated, and certainly not elegant. I guess I bought into Ponitac's faux sport more than I bought into Buick's faux elegance. Build a nice smaller Buick and you've got me back. Its kind of too bad that I'm approaching the age of their typical customer demographic.

[cletus8269]

how bout a luxury sports car? I for one wouldnt mind seeing a 08 Buick gs with a nice v8 in it say... 6.2l displacement neighborhood.

[ponchoman49]

Word to Buick: drop the 3800 and 4 speed automatics already! Those 2 drivetrain components are seriously holding sales back. When I drive a 2007 model, I don't expect it to have less performance and the same transmission as a 1996 model. Example- 2007 Buick Lucerne with 3800 series III/4 speed automatic. HP-197, torque 227, mileage 19/28 vs 1996 LeSabre 3800 series II/4 speed automatic. HP 205, torque 230, mileage 19/30. It is incomprehensible that Buick's flagship comes to battle so seriously outdated and underpowered. True they offer a more powerful V8 but that engine gets far worse mileage and is slower than most of it's competitors. If Buick wants to broaden it's appeal then I suggest the following recipe for MY 2008:

1) LaCrosse: new front end treatment and more distinctive rear end, drop 3800 and instead use AFM 3900 with 233 hp and 3.05:1 gears for 21/31 mileage figures. Optional 3.6 should be at 252 hp levels ala Saturn Aura and a reduction to 3.29:1 gears to improve highway mileage to 28-29. Axe chrome bar on the dash as it is very distracting in the sun. Cloth seat fabric needs to be 2 shades darker and dark blue with some tan accents should be offered as an option. CX and CXL suspensions need to be firmed up as does the steering. Also the CXS needs power recliners on both sides and a few more standard itmes to make it justify it's expensive price tag. Base models should all have std alloy wheels and the split bench seat option should be relegated to fleets and base model deletes only.

2) Lucerne: Non intrusive trunk hinges, body colored exterior mirror housings, soft touch dash, telescoping wheel, wood trim on power window switches and split folding rear seat should all be standard equipment. 3800 needs to go like now and the standard engine should be the Enclaves 275 hp version of the 3.6 mated to a 6 speed automatic. The Northstar V8 should be upgraded to the 292 hp version but with more economical gearing tied to the 6 speed automatic to raise highway mileage to 27 or 28 mpg. Leather steering wheel should be optional on CX. New alloy wheels are needed on the base CX model and the CXS suspension should be standard on all versions except the very base models. Also power recliners should be standard on all CXL models.

3)Terazza- dropped

4) Rendevous- dropped

5) Ranier- dropped

6) Riviera coupe re-introduced with rear drive, stunning Buick styling and an interior of rich design. 3.6 with 275 hp standard and 292 Northstar optional paired to 6 speed automatic with manual shift mode. Bristle it with every conceivable do-dad such as blue tooth and keyless start but also keep it reliable.

7) Velite- get this thing out now! Put some trim and normal door handles on the sides and give it an exclusive high output DI 3.6 V6. Price it reasonable and it will fly off dealer lots.

Roadmaster full size: Zeta based underpinnings combined with old world Buick elegance and style. No boring slab sided wonders. Offer full blown 400 hp LS2 V8's as options with std 3.6. Offer interiors with colors and elegance and high build quality.

9) Enclave- pretty good as is but should have some side trim on the doors.

10) Grand National 2 door coupe- placed on the upcoming chassis used for the new GTO but with styling touches reminicent of the great 80's GN 2 door coupe. Since Buick will no longer be making the 3800 engine maybe a turbocharged version of the 3.6 should be employed with pavement pounding hp and torque. This would of course be a niche vehicle and a dream one at that.

As long as Buick follows the 5 golden rules below will it succeed.

1) Quit trying to style cars like Lexus

2) No slab sided boring cars with no exterior trim or character lines. Leave these to the Asians

3) Expresive american styling

4) Cutting edge powertrains

5) Do use Lexus as a benchmark for quality and customer service

[trinacriabob]

Word to Buick: drop the 3800 and 4 speed automatics already! Those 2 drivetrain components are seriously holding sales back.  If Buick wants to broaden it's appeal then I suggest the following recipe for MY 2008

223761[/snapback]

I agree with most of what you said, particuarly the reintroduction of a stunning Riviera coupe and the release of the Velite.

I do not agree with you on the 3800. I think this powerplant could have been modernized instead of tossed out.

However, the LaCrosse and the Lucerne could benefit from those things you mention in terms of better creature comfort and fit/finish. I find all the column mounted shifter LaCrosses and Lucernes I see at the dealerships to scream "Buick of yesterday...or 2 decades ago."

Simple line up:

LaCrosse FWD

Lucerne FWD

"Zeta" RWD

Riviera RWD

Velite RWD

Enclave AWD

I think Buick could handle 6 vehicles in 6 niches, though I do wonder how Lucerne/Zeta will overlap.

[titan]

Simple line up:

LaCrosse FWD

Lucerne FWD

"Zeta" RWD

Riviera RWD

Velite RWD

Enclave AWD

223811[/snapback]

To many vehicles, IMO. Buick aims to be a value luxury brand. That means, no FWD vehicles. If any, it should a next gen LaCrosse on EPII, and marketed as a direct competitor to the ES350. Also, dropping the much loved 3800 is the righ decision. Buick's engines should include the 3.6L HFV6 @ 290-300HP and a V8 at around 350HP. Buick's should have a 6sp transmission in every vehicle. The next Gen Lucerne and flagship Roadmaster (or whatever it's called) should be on Zeta. In addition, there should be a grand touring Velite, the Enclave, and the croosover Buick positioned under the Enclave. All should be positioned as ultra quiet with it's "Quiet Tuning" technology, with plenty of power and good materials.

So, that's

LaCrosse - FWD, 3.6L HFV6 @ 290HP / 6spd - Alternative to ES350

Lucerne - RWD, 3.6L HFV6 @ 290HP / 6sp; opt. V8 @ 350HP

Flagship - RWD, V8 @ 350HP - alternative to LS

Velite

Enclave

next gen Theta Buick

Why can't Buick be a luxury brand with an eye towards value? Buicks should be powerful, quiet, refined, and understated. There's still plenty of room for Caddy to shine with the V-Series, niche models to battle MB directly (like a CLS compeitor), etc.

[trinacriabob]

To many vehicles, IMO.  Buick aims to be a value luxury brand.  That means, no FWD vehicles.  If any, it should a next gen LaCrosse on EPII, and marketed as a direct competitor to the ES350.  Also, dropping the much loved 3800 is the righ decision. 

223998[/snapback]

Buick will hopefully make the right decision. We are all presenting different opinions, and I am sure what will finally happen will be some blended decision of what we all want.

I need to sleep easy at night, so I will be rocketing to the showroom sometime next year to snag me a 3800 V6 + 4 speed automatic combo. My Regal crosses over 230,000 tomorrow during my morning commute and I am awed by the very low thus-far repair bills and the car is somewhere between 14.5 and 15 years old. I want another one of these engines (purchased brand new again) one more time in my life.

[Aromanances]

Drop the striper CX stuff. You don't see Lexus or Acura offering striped rental versions of thier cars. No more cheap cloth, bench seats and colum shifters. Most of the Geezers I see have the bare bones stripers that do nothing to do what Buick needs most, an improved image. The Enclave is the first TOTAL effort Buick has put out in decades.

[ponchoman49]

I agree with most of what you said, particuarly the reintroduction of a stunning Riviera coupe and the release of the Velite.

I do not agree with you on the 3800.  I think this powerplant could have been modernized instead of tossed out.

However, the LaCrosse and the Lucerne could benefit from those things you mention in terms of better creature comfort and fit/finish.  I find all the column mounted shifter LaCrosses and Lucernes I see at the dealerships to scream "Buick of yesterday...or 2 decades ago." 

Simple line up:

LaCrosse FWD

Lucerne FWD

"Zeta" RWD

Riviera RWD

Velite RWD

Enclave AWD

I think Buick could handle 6 vehicles in 6 niches, though I do wonder how Lucerne/Zeta will overlap.

223811[/snapback]

Glad you liked my ideal Buick lineup. I do agree that the 3800 engine is a good one and that it has provided many trouble free miles of service. The main 3 reasons I want Buick to drop this engine are that it hasn't updated the engines power, NVH characteristics are not one of it's strong points in the new models and it's lack of hp compared to just about every other engine of it's size actually works against it with todays feature laden, overweight vehicles in the fuel economy department. Just look at the Lucerne as an example. That detuned 197 hp 3800 now has to deal with 300 or so extra pounds of weight and the same lazy 2.86:1 gears just to maintain the lower 19/28 mpg figures compared to it's LeSabre predecessor with 205 hp, 2.86 gears and 20/29 mileage. I think it would take some serious efferts to re-engineer this motor to say LS1 standards and anything over 230 hp which would still have this engine behind the competition, although I don't understand why people these days need such powerhouse cars with officers crawling over every square inch of the streets dying to hand out speeding tickets. Still I would have liked to see what a 3800 series IV could have been like since the series III was such a dissapointment in NA form.

[Regalguy01]

All I would like to see is fresh product perpetually given to the brand. I don't care how you do it, or how many models are offered for that matter, but keep the vehicles fresh and competitive. Buick hasn't gotten its stodgy image soley from its buyers, but also from the outdated materials and offerings it had to use throughout the 90's(that is, except the stunning 95' Rivera). Also, try using some different parts in Buick than in the volume brands(chevy, pontiac etc). If Buick is to remain one rung below Cadillac, I don't expect to have the same dash components, door handles and etc as someone who paid $7k or so less than I did

[K.C.]

In my opinion, GM needs to either crap, or get off the pot as far as Buick is concered. The Enclave is a good start, but so many automakers tend to bring out great SUVs and lackluster cars. Buick needs some great cars. How about a great front wheel drive midsize sedan to head up with the ES350? How about a large rear wheel drive car to down the Chrysler 300? Oh wait, that is coming. How about making Buick about something romantic, sexy, and upscale again. Buick can be all those things again, but it takes breakthrough products in their CAR lines (not SUV). And for heavens sake, no trucks please.

K.C.

[buickguy]

Steve Shannon wrote an article on gmfastlane blog and you can respond to him there