GM's Upcoming Electric Onslaught

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

GM won't be dependent on a proprietary charging network, though?   I assume they are building product to use the standard charging stations..

true.  however then, the electric cars in the marketplace still won't take off en masse until a vast charge network of a common standard is built.

Just now, regfootball said:

true.  however then, the electric cars in the marketplace still won't take off en masse until a vast charge network of a common standard is built.

Which are being built...ChargePoint, etc...

22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Who’s pushing electric cars in volume??

And when the answer to that is ‘no one’, then EVERYONE ‘pushing’ EVs is merely doing PR.

By the very nature of commerce, every somewhat different product in a segment sees slow, incremental growth- look at one of the highest volume cars in history- the VW beetle.

It is?!?! Every published source out there says it’s Sliced Bread 2.0; it's a Tesla!!

at the end of the day its my main rag at GM right now.  All the PR bullshit about electric cars and all the resources down the drain keeping them from updating their core product lines.

Silverado/Sierra is only 18 months old. 😉

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Silverado/Sierra is only 18 months old. 😉

True, and the full size SUVs are new, as is the Corvette.    The rest of their US product line is just forgettable FWD appliances.  

Well, likely not to the 100’s of thousands of buyers of them. 

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Model X has been available for some years- why aren’t they all already in one of those?

Easy, tight interior room, poor interior layout. Only hard core Tesla fans buy the X and pay the crazy price. Northwest has a vary tall population. You will find most men at 6' or taller and with the Tesla X as to why I never bought is that once I was in the front, you had maybe 2" of space between the back of the front seat and the rear bottom seat pad. No one can sit behind a tall person. 

Tesla in this regards has made an ERROR in sizing the interior seats for an average  5' 8" tall even though their beloved CEO is 6'2" tall, no one can sit behind him.

Plus price along with quality is the other point.

So.... vehicle compromises, quality issues and priced too high.

What new vehicle were we talking about again??

5 hours ago, dfelt said:

Who says no one will buy a $200,000 Cadillac sedan?

You sound like SMK making assumptions where there is no proof yet.

No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
 

I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
 

I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

The XT6 is DEAD?  It has only been out for less than a year.  The XTS is dead and deservedly so.  FWD Cadillac sedans deserve their grave.  Give me a CT6 any day of the week rather than the XTS.

[Cadillac; #2 in ATPs... but let's ignore that.]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
 

I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

You have a severe problem comparing apples to apples. By your logic, no one will ever buy a $300K overdressed S Class, I mean Maybach. Oh wait. They didn’t buy it.

Oh and the Escalade routinely sells for around $100K and routinely outsells the competition. See how your logic falls flat on its face?

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

[Cadillac; #2 in ATPs... but let's ignore that.]

There is a tendency to do that when it doesn’t suit whatever weak ass argument one is trying to serve up.

33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

[Cadillac; #2 in ATPs... but let's ignore that.]

#2 at GM?

Little interest in automotive industry news/stats?

32 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You have a severe problem comparing apples to apples. By your logic, no one will ever buy a $300K overdressed S Class, I mean Maybach. Oh wait. They didn’t buy it.

 

Oh and the Escalade routinely sells for around $100K and routinely outsells the competition. See how your logic falls flat on its face?

There is a tendency to do that when it doesn’t suit whatever weak ass argument one is trying to serve up.

Maybach is doing well, 2019 was a sales record for the Maybach S-class with sales up over 10% despite global S-class sales down 8% being that it is in it's 6 model year.   They have expanded to a 2nd model, which being an SUV will do well for sure.  Mercedes got Maybach wrong on the first reboot, but this 2nd try they got it right and they are on the rise now.

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

The XT6 is DEAD?  It has only been out for less than a year.  The XTS is dead and deservedly so.  FWD Cadillac sedans deserve their grave.  Give me a CT6 any day of the week rather than the XTS.

Mistake on my part, I meant CT6, the big sedan.

Only thing Daimler 'got right' on maybach 2.0 was a staggering price cut and a massive parts bin raid.
There may not be a bigger downgrade in automotive history... but mercedes cannot pull down Bentley/Rolls customers. Catastrophic failure.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Only thing Daimler 'got right' on maybach 2.0 was a staggering price cut and a massive parts bin raid.
There may not be a bigger downgrade in automotive history... but mercedes cannot pull down Bentley/Rolls customers. Catastrophic failure.

They found a soft spot in the market around $175-$250k that is above where Audi and BMW end and before Rolls and Bentley  begin for the most part.  And they took that space over.  I don't know why there isn't a Maybach G-class which would make way more sense than an AMG G-class.  An electric G-wagen is coming though, could be a nice place to do a Maybach version.

They had a sad, dumpy design and they couldn't hold the line on quality- it was built worse than the s-class. Catastrophic failure.

Current info on ATP's and Hyundai seems to beat the heck out of Mercedes-Benz.

TO QUOTE:

Average transaction prices (ATPs) in January started off 2020 much like they ended 2019: rising. The market saw a 3.5% year-over-year gain in January, to nearly $38,000. The gain was driven mostly by a heavier truck/SUV sales mix, as car share fell to 25% in January, down from 30% in January 2019. Both trucks and SUVs gained, as trucks rose to 19% of the market (up from 17% from January 2019), and SUVs climbed to 52% (up from 48%). Had the sales mix remained steady from a year ago, the year-over-year increase in ATPs would have only been about 1.5%.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/average-new-vehicle-transaction-prices-up-3-5-year-over-year-in-january/

Seems no GERMAN BRANDS can be cost effective to own either.

@smk4565 Seems your favorite brand is no where to be found in the top 5 most profitable auto companies in 2019. In order from #1: 

1. Toyota Motor Corporation with $17.5 Billion
2. Volkswagen with $15.6 Billion
3. General Motors Company with $9.0 Billion
4. Bavarian Motor Works (BMW) with $5.6 Billion
5. Honda Motor Company with $4.8 Billion

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp

EVEN WITH A STRIKE, GM WAS MORE PROFITABLE THAN MERCEDES_BENZ

Well, well, well, well. Isn't that interesting, especially in light of someone who might (mightily erroneously) claim 'Cadillac is competing with Acura' :

18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Seems no GERMAN BRANDS can be cost effective to own either.

@smk4565 Seems your favorite brand is no where to be found in the top 5 most profitable auto companies in 2019. In order from #1: 

1. Toyota Motor Corporation with $17.5 Billion
2. Volkswagen with $15.6 Billion
3. General Motors Company with $9.0 Billion
4. Bavarian Motor Works (BMW) with $5.6 Billion
5. Honda Motor Company with $4.8 Billion

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp

EVEN WITH A STRIKE, GM WAS MORE PROFITABLE THAN MERCEDES_BENZ

Daimler had $6.2 billion net profit in 2019.  And keep in mind Mercedes-Benz Cars Division alone spent $7.92 Billion in R&D  compared to all of GM that spent $6.8 billion or all of Toyota Corp spending $10 billion.   GM sells 4 times as many cars as Mercedes does, Toyota sells 5 times as many.  Why doesn't Cadillac have a $7 billion R&D budget to compete with Mercedes?  GM fans should be outraged.

So not worried about Daimler's profits when they are spending heavy for the future, they'll have the electric car arsenal and carpet bomb all segments, while the others play follow the leader like they have with ICE cars the past 30 years.

Cost of ownership for a luxury brand is irrelevant due to high leasing and also Acura is what the 7th or 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA and has a very limited global footprint.  Buyers don't care about Acura's resale or maintenance costs.

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Well, well, well, well. Isn't that interesting, especially in light of someone who might (mightily erroneously) claim 'Cadillac is competing with Acura' :

I'd like to see what that Cadillac number is when CT4 and CT5 are on sale, and CT6 is out of dealers.  

CT4 is $33k, CT5 is $37k, XT4 is $36k, and XT5 is $44k.  4 of their 6 vehicles are under $45k to start, and I know options get added on, but still, half their lineup now starts under $37k.  

ATP for a brand is also a meaningless metric, Maserati has a great ATP, and it is a borderline dead brand.  Jaguar leas that list and they are near dead in the water.    ATP per segment is more relevant if you want to compare.   Mercedes has 4 models starting under $40k so their brand ATP is pulled down but Mercedes sells more cars over $100k than any one.  More than Bentley, BMW, Audi, Lamborghini, Rolls, etc and probably more than those 5 combined if we are being honest.

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Daimler had $6.2 billion net profit in 2019.  And keep in mind Mercedes-Benz Cars Division alone spent $7.92 Billion in R&D  compared to all of GM that spent $6.8 billion or all of Toyota Corp spending $10 billion.   GM sells 4 times as many cars as Mercedes does, Toyota sells 5 times as many.  Why doesn't Cadillac have a $7 billion R&D budget to compete with Mercedes?  GM fans should be outraged.

So not worried about Daimler's profits when they are spending heavy for the future, they'll have the electric car arsenal and carpet bomb all segments, while the others play follow the leader like they have with ICE cars the past 30 years.

Cost of ownership for a luxury brand is irrelevant due to high leasing and also Acura is what the 7th or 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA and has a very limited global footprint.  Buyers don't care about Acura's resale or maintenance costs.

WRONG WRONG WRONG, Mercedes-Benz only had a $2.7 Billion net profit in 2019 after charges.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/record-mercedes-benz-sales-daimler

Lets stop trying to compare oranges to apples by adding in all of Daimler. Auto company to auto company GM to Mercedes-Benz, GM wins at $9 Billion to $2.7 Billion.

If ya do not like Fox News as a source, then lets go to Daimlers own site for actual real facts:

https://annualreport.daimler.com/ar2019/combined-management-report/profitability/net-operating-profit#

Even then, you had Daimlers Net Profit for 2019 way off:

Even "The Gaurdian" news paper looked at Daimler and reports after charges Mercedes-Benz only had a net profit of $2.7 Billion.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/11/profits-at-mercedes-benz-owner-daimler-slump-by-5bn

Dividends have been slashed from $3.25 per share to .90 cents per share for 2019 payout. Sales were flat, Van division is in the dumps and there are additional diesel gate costs to come. Mercedes-Benz only sold 707,000 auto's in china last year far behind GM sales.

ATP is CERTAINLY more pertinent than starting MSRP!

I looked up some numbers, the G-wagen alone outsold all Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Rolls-Royce globally in 2019.  And they sold 71,700 S-class sedans so with coupe/convertible that has to be at least 80,000 and the cheapest V6 rear drive S-class with no options is $94k, which  means 99% of them are going to sticker over $100k.    Mercedes sold 4200 AMG GT in the US alone, so that number is probably more like 15-20k globally, plus the SL, the AMG 63 cars, the GLS V8's etc.  They are easily doing over 200,000 units a year of $100k and up product.  That's impressive.  

18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

WRONG WRONG WRONG, Mercedes-Benz only had a $2.7 Billion net profit in 2019 after charges.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/record-mercedes-benz-sales-daimler

Lets stop trying to compare oranges to apples by adding in all of Daimler. Auto company to auto company GM to Mercedes-Benz, GM wins at $9 Billion to $2.7 Billion.

If ya do not like Fox News as a source, then lets go to Daimlers own site for actual real facts:

https://annualreport.daimler.com/ar2019/combined-management-report/profitability/net-operating-profit#

Even then, you had Daimlers Net Profit for 2019 way off:

Even "The Gaurdian" news paper looked at Daimler and reports after charges Mercedes-Benz only had a net profit of $2.7 Billion.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/11/profits-at-mercedes-benz-owner-daimler-slump-by-5bn

Dividends have been slashed from $3.25 per share to .90 cents per share for 2019 payout. Sales were flat, Van division is in the dumps and there are additional diesel gate costs to come. Mercedes-Benz only sold 707,000 auto's in china last year far behind GM sales.

2.7 billion Euro after the adjustments so like $3 billion.  But that doesn't matter as long as they aren't losing money.  What matters is they had record high spending on R&D, they didn't budget cut and sacrifice future product like FCA has done the past 10 years and starved their product line.  

All these companies are about to have a bad 2020, Daimler will have a bad 2020 no doubt they already said they are going to hold R&D the same as it was in 2019 which is super high, but they'll be ready in 2021 and 2022.  Anyone pushing hard for the EV change over is going to have rough years because you are spending on ICE and EV at the same time, once the transitions happens, the profits will come back.

In the U.S. tho, mercedes cannot seem to stay above / put distance between their ATPs and those of the 'Acura-competitor'; Cadillac.

"Mercedes fans should be outraged."
- - - - -

RE the post above mine; what happened to "6.2" billion???
Note also that not only did Q4 profit drop by a massive 22%, MB is stating it will likely be years before they return to previous margin levels.
AND that one way they intend to achieve that is to 'build less complex cars'.

"Mercedes fans should be outraged."

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

2.7 billion Euro after the adjustments so like $3 billion.  But that doesn't matter as long as they aren't losing money.  What matters is they had record high spending on R&D, they didn't budget cut and sacrifice future product like FCA has done the past 10 years and starved their product line.  

All these companies are about to have a bad 2020, Daimler will have a bad 2020 no doubt they already said they are going to hold R&D the same as it was in 2019 which is super high, but they'll be ready in 2021 and 2022.  Anyone pushing hard for the EV change over is going to have rough years because you are spending on ICE and EV at the same time, once the transitions happens, the profits will come back.

Yes $3 billion is still not $6.8 Billion and not enough to be in the top 5 profitable auto companies. That puts them much lower compared to GM.

And you were comparing it to GM now you change course and point at FCA. Stop moving the goal posts, how many years have people here told you that.

R&D you want to bring up, sure lets use real facts and Statista is recognized as the best out there by the industry. So for 2019, MB spent 8.1 Billion  across their complete product portfolio, not just EVs.

GM spent only 6.8 billion on their total portfolio for 2019 or $1.3 billion less than MB and had a Net Profit of $9 billion for the year compared to Mercedes-Benz Pre-Net Profit of $7.2 billion per their own web site. This was before reducing it by $4.5 billion for legal / diesel gate with more expense to come in 2020. According to todays exchange rates, their $7.2 billion in pre-net profit ends up being $8.1 billion US or $.9 billion less than GM did which spent $1.3 billion less in R&D and has a selling EV called the BOLT.

@smk4565-No offense but you seriously have to know when to walk away. You started this nonsense with you weak trolling (which is probably because Benz keeps delaying their EV offerings) and now you have backstepped so many times, offering excuses for Daimler that you simply won’t do for domestics, you don’t even know what your core argument is anymore. Fact is that Benz has had just as many flops and failures as Cadillac and they have been costlier to boot (see Maybach). Maybe offering something of actual substance would be the best course of action for the future here. 

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

2.7 billion Euro after the adjustments so like $3 billion.  But that doesn't matter as long as they aren't losing money.  What matters is they had record high spending on R&D, they didn't budget cut and sacrifice future product like FCA has done the past 10 years and starved their product line.  

All these companies are about to have a bad 2020, Daimler will have a bad 2020 no doubt they already said they are going to hold R&D the same as it was in 2019 which is super high, but they'll be ready in 2021 and 2022.  Anyone pushing hard for the EV change over is going to have rough years because you are spending on ICE and EV at the same time, once the transitions happens, the profits will come back.

All that R&D spending yet delay after delay on the future EV investment. See the problem there yet? Like I said, just endless excuses. 

Shooooooot, Linocln has higher ATPs than Mercedes... I honestly never would have guessed. 

Mercedes sells a ton of high priced Chevrolet  (Im trolling...BUT,  Mercedes DOES sell a ton of "entry level" bullshyte cars and CUVs) 

These are badge snobs that wouldnt be caught dead in lower badged cars, especially from Detroit and really couldnt afford the high dollar M-B cars.  These are the cars Mercedes has pushed on us for the last 20-25 years. From the late 1990s. 

You are what you market and sell. Ive said this before about me not wanting Cadillac to move downmarket...

Mercedes has made its bed. Its time for Mercedes to sleep in it. 

That Celestiq...with a 200 000 dollar price tag. 

It will be handbuilt, right?

That is REAL luxury territory.  At that price point and manufacturing process, that equates to Cadillac KNOWING what it NEEDS to do NOT to phoque it up. THAT means that the technology behind it WILL be state of the art. The build quality and quality of the luxury materials WILL be worthy of that 200 000 dollar price tag. 

How do I know this to be true?  Because MY guess is as good as any other's.

Well...

1. Seeing how the Corvette engineering team was focused on the project at hand and gave us an unbelievable C8 Stingray to start with and other trims to follow. I see Cadillac engineers to do the same with not only the Celestiq but withb the other models too.

2. Seeing the new CT4-V and CT-5-V in person and how the interior is tight and the materials are worthy of REAL Cadillacs, I KNOW GM and Cadillac FINALLY got the message...and things are only going to get better with the EV Cadillacs going forward.

3. Maybe some of us are not really feeling the new Escalade on the outside, but on the inside, its very worthy of a REAL Cadillac. I think it even surpasses the high dollar Mercedes cars.  Side note, at the Montreal Auto Show...the new CT4 V and CT5 V cars were there, but NOBODY was interested in them, (which points out that sedans are dead) but there was a line-up at the Escalade. Millennials, middle-aged like myself and boomers...  I think the Escalade UNITES us all. To which I  will assume the Celestiq will do the same as in... 

North Americans are starving for a high priced Cadillac.

We have seen the effect with some very desirable concepts Cadillac has shown us but havent got the balls to actually give us. Im betting the Celestiq wont dissapoint. 

Just my gut feeling. 

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

In the U.S. tho, mercedes cannot seem to stay above / put distance between their ATPs and those of the 'Acura-competitor'; Cadillac.

"Mercedes fans should be outraged."
- - - - -

RE the post above mine; what happened to "6.2" billion???
Note also that not only did Q4 profit drop by a massive 22%, MB is stating it will likely be years before they return to previous margin levels.
AND that one way they intend to achieve that is to 'build less complex cars'.

"Mercedes fans should be outraged."

I don't care about brand ATP's.  If Mercedes wants to sell A-classes and Metris ands then good for them, give consumers more choice and put more good product out there.  I would hate if it Mercedes was just 2 sedans and 4 SUV's like a lot of luxury brands are.  

Google search said 6.2 billion which was before their taxes and right off I think.  in 2020 I imagine Daimler will be lucky to just turn profit, as long as they stay profitable this year I think they are in great shape when the economy rebounds and EV demand rises.

5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565-No offense but you seriously have to know when to walk away. You started this nonsense with you weak trolling (which is probably because Benz keeps delaying their EV offerings) and now you have backstepped so many times, offering excuses for Daimler that you simply won’t do for domestics, you don’t even know what your core argument is anymore. Fact is that Benz has had just as many flops and failures as Cadillac and they have been costlier to boot (see Maybach). Maybe offering something of actual substance would be the best course of action for the future here. 

All that R&D spending yet delay after delay on the future EV investment. See the problem there yet? Like I said, just endless excuses. 

They haven't delayed anything.  They are selling the EQ C in Europe, they aren't selling it in the USA because they need to sell 100% of the units they build in Europe to try to beat the C02 threshold and avoid a billion or multi billion euro  fine.  Europe has imposed C02 standards that basically want auto fleets to be Prius level emissions or face fines.  That is also why they introduced 4 or 5 plug-in hybrids last month.  EQ A, B, S, E all are pretty deep in development.   Sure it would be nice to have them now, but they have to get the product right, and plus with cheap gas and a a really good inline six mild hybrid engine and inline 4 hybrids, a lot of buyers are going to choose that over EV.

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't care about brand ATP's.  If Mercedes wants to sell A-classes and Metris ands then good for them, give consumers more choice and put more good product out there.  I would hate if it Mercedes was just 2 sedans and 4 SUV's like a lot of luxury brands are.  

Google search said 6.2 billion which was before their taxes and right off I think.  in 2020 I imagine Daimler will be lucky to just turn profit, as long as they stay profitable this year I think they are in great shape when the economy rebounds and EV demand rises.

Instead of a random Google Search why not as I did QUOTE Daimler's actual report.

So then you are going to admit and accept that Mercdes-Benz is an equal to Toyota, Chevrolet, etc. in selling auto's in all market levels and not a Luxury only auto company.

4 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

North Americans are starving for a high priced Cadillac.

We have seen the effect with some very desirable concepts Cadillac has shown us but havent got the balls to actually give us. Im betting the Celestiq wont dissapoint. 

Just my gut feeling. 

 

 

 

Are they?  The Escalade sells well on name and the fact that GM has strong full size truck buyer pool, from Silverado, Tahoe, Yukon, etc.  And credit to them for cornering that market and FCA isn't even there and Ford they really squashed in full size SUV's the past 10 years.  Aside from Escalade, North Americans have not shown up for any high priced Cadillacs in the past 30 years.

14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Instead of a random Google Search why not as I did QUOTE Daimler's actual report.

So then you are going to admit and accept that Mercdes-Benz is an equal to Toyota, Chevrolet, etc. in selling auto's in all market levels and not a Luxury only auto company.

They don't sell in all levels, Mercedes doesn't have sub $20,000 product, just like Toyota/GM don't have $100k+ product.   And I am not opposed to them selling in all market levels, the Corvette sits on the same lot as commercial vans and Spark and Sonic sub-compacts and no one cares, and Corvette fans still love it.  Because what a Spark or Express van is has zero impact on what a Corvette is.  Just like what the A-class is has zero impact on what the G-wagen or S-class are.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Are they?

Oh yes they are!!!

Cadillac is selling in nice numbers. Even in North America. Cadillac has/had many sedans in their line-up and not too many CUVs. Now that they culled a few of those sedans and upped their CUV line-up...numbers will go up.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The Escalade sells well on name and the fact that GM has strong full size truck buyer pool, from Silverado, Tahoe, Yukon, etc.  And credit to them for cornering that market

Wel...yeah!

But the sentence before...those two words asking rhetorically and stupidly "are they?" well...

YOU SAID IT YOURSELF!!!

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The Escalade sells well on name

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Aside from Escalade, North Americans have not shown up for any high priced Cadillacs in the past 30 years.

That is because Cadillac hasnt really given the people any high priced products to buy to begin with...

And the very few that had high price tags, Cadillac botched them...this is true.

BUT...the Escalade is 1 high priced Caddy that is NOT botched.

The "V" cars are not botched either.   And enough "V" product has entered the market that people have taken notice. Except these are sedans...   People dont buy sedans in high numbers anymore.   Mercedes has seen those sedan numbers drop too...

But.. I repeat my post

5 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

1. Seeing how the Corvette engineering team was focused on the project at hand and gave us an unbelievable C8 Stingray to start with and other trims to follow. I see Cadillac engineers to do the same with not only the Celestiq but withb the other models too.

2. Seeing the new CT4-V and CT-5-V in person and how the interior is tight and the materials are worthy of REAL Cadillacs, I KNOW GM and Cadillac FINALLY got the message...and things are only going to get better with the EV Cadillacs going forward.

3. Maybe some of us are not really feeling the new Escalade on the outside, but on the inside, its very worthy of a REAL Cadillac. I think it even surpasses the high dollar Mercedes cars.  Side note, at the Montreal Auto Show...the new CT4 V and CT5 V cars were there, but NOBODY was interested in them, (which points out that sedans are dead) but there was a line-up at the Escalade. Millennials, middle-aged like myself and boomers...  I think the Escalade UNITES us all. To which I  will assume the Celestiq will do the same as in... 

And funny though...   you seem to defend Mercedes by NOT caring about ATPs...but ATPs DEFINE the  luxury market...

If Cadillac sells higher priced vehicles than Mercedes does on a whole...what conclusion do YOU have?

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

 If Mercedes wants to sell A-classes and Metris ands then good for them, give consumers more choice and put more good product out there.

 YOU already answered that...

THAT is luxury to you?

Dude...is or isnt Mercedes luxury?  (IN NORTH AMERICA)

Because if these are the kinds of cars Mercedes wants to peddle to North Americans and people are buying these...and Cadillac ends up selling MORE higher priced cars than Mercedes does...than YOU already have your answer.

YOU may not like the answer and be blind to reality...and THAT is OK too... but you or Mercedes aint foolin' me.

PS:  

I saw a family get out of a Metris the other day. The first thing that came to my mind is this:

Yup....PURE luxury... That would be a Ford van

Chevy and GMC have  versions of those too.  

Again...if YOU think selling vehicles where the market has Chevy and Ford as competitors is selling luxury...IVE GOT SOMETHING TO SELL YOU

Escalade does well but it starts at $75k and loaded out is $100k.  A $200k start price is 2.5 times higher.  Celestique is supposed to start at $200k so with options we could be in the $220-250 range.  

But bring it on, competition is good for the industry and the consumer.   Before the CT6 came out, all the Cadillac fans rejoiced that the S-class killer was here, and then the CT6 had to be price cut down to $55k, never competed with the S-class and after 4-5 years it is gone. Now they want to go 4 times more than the price of a CT6, I don't see how that works.  People aren't going to pay Bentley Money for a Cadillac, it makes as much sense as Chevy selling a $130,000 Impala or Kia selling a $125,000 K900.

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Before the CT6 came out, all the Cadillac fans rejoiced that the S-class killer was here, and then the CT6 had to be price cut down to $55k

because the CT6 was said to be a high priced Cadillac.  And a top dog Cadillac at that.  

The potential buyers and fanbois all thought that this was THE Cadillac. 

But it wasnt. The interior quality of materials were underwhelming.  THAT is why Johan right away said that this was NOT a top dog Cadillac.  It was not his project car. He inherited it. It was a project car done at the time of the bankruptcy and whether the bankruptcy had an impact on the cheapened interior or was it business as usual bean counting...the CT6 was NOT that vehicle. 

And the fans and the buyers saw it right away...

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Now they want to go 4 times more than the price of a CT6, I don't see how that works.  People aren't going to pay Bentley Money for a Cadillac,

But they will. 

The Celestiq...for the LAST time...does NOT look like a project going down the road of what made Cadillac fail...

1. Seeing how the Corvette engineering team was focused on the project at hand and gave us an unbelievable C8 Stingray to start with and other trims to follow. I see Cadillac engineers to do the same with not only the Celestiq but withb the other models too.

2. Seeing the new CT4-V and CT-5-V in person and how the interior is tight and the materials are worthy of REAL Cadillacs, I KNOW GM and Cadillac FINALLY got the message...and things are only going to get better with the EV Cadillacs going forward.

3. Maybe some of us are not really feeling the new Escalade on the outside, but on the inside, its very worthy of a REAL Cadillac. I think it even surpasses the high dollar Mercedes cars.  Side note, at the Montreal Auto Show...the new CT4 V and CT5 V cars were there, but NOBODY was interested in them, (which points out that sedans are dead) but there was a line-up at the Escalade. Millennials, middle-aged like myself and boomers...  I think the Escalade UNITES us all. To which I  will assume the Celestiq will do the same as in... 

The people crooned over the Ciel...and the Ciel would have been a 200 000 dollar price tagged car. if not more. People are STILL talking about the Ciel. The Ciel was a concept that was 15 years ago...

Shyte..people still croon over the Sixteen 20 years ago. 

All the Ciel and Sixteen had to do is just be...Cadillac and they'd sell like hot cakes with Bentley and Rolls price tags...

All the CT6 had to do...is just be a WORTHY Cadillac. It was not. 

The Celestiq WILL be a worthy Cadillac.  Nothing shows that Cadillac in 2020 will NOT be doing things right. This is a game that Cadillac finally ended. Cadillac just started a new game. 

YOU got to get off this habit of yours. 

Worry about Mercedes. Because Mercedes in 2020 is going down a road that Cadillac once took. 

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

it makes as much sense as Chevy selling a $130,000

Oh...That is coming shortly.  Be careful what you wish for. 

Its called the Corvette C8 with  trims and performance levels higher than that of the base Stingray. And of course a higher price tag.  And seeing that the highest priced C8 Stingray reaches almost 100 000...you just KNOW that the other two projected C8 Corvettes will reach and probably surpass 130 000.  

And yes...those Vettes WILL sell at that price.    

GM aint phoquing around anymore. 

You aint seeing that?

Im giving you a heads up. Maybe you should look into it more closely.

Since the CT4 and the CT5 are already out, will there be a replacement for the CT6 and make it at least as good as the Escalade?  (Yes I know that CT6 production ended about 60 days ago.)

11 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Since the CT4 and the CT5 are already out, will there be a replacement for the CT6 and make it at least as good as the Escalade?  (Yes I know that CT6 production ended about 60 days ago.)

Could it be that the CT cars get replaced with EV names?

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Oh...That is coming shortly.  Be careful what you wish for. 

Its called the Corvette C8 with  trims and performance levels higher than that of the base Stingray. And of course a higher price tag.  And seeing that the highest priced C8 Stingray reaches almost 100 000...you just KNOW that the other two projected C8 Corvettes will reach and probably surpass 130 000.  

And yes...those Vettes WILL sell at that price.    

GM aint phoquing around anymore. 

You aint seeing that?

Im giving you a heads up. Maybe you should look into it more closely.

 

 

I said a Chevy sedan.  I know what a C8 costs and I also said for years there should be a sports car above the Corvette.  The C8 Stingray is slower around the Nurburgring than an AMG GT 4-door which is like a 4600 lb sedan.  You can’t put elite performance in a car for $60-100k.  Nor should a Corvette cost more than that, this the reason GM should build something better than a Corvette.

  It is okay for the Corvette to be the best sports car on market in the $60-100k range and then there be something else.  I don’t get the reason why GM fans don’t want GM to build a sports car better than the Corvette.

My point on Cadillac is in the past they have not delivered, I don’t know why this time around would be any different.

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

My point on Cadillac is in the past they have not delivered, I don’t know why this time around would be any different.

While that would be true if we still had the same board and CEO now. Mary has proven that she is moving forward with reinventing GM and going EV and she has said recently as posted on LinkedIn that GM needs to hit the points that customers are complaining about. 

This makes me think that a $200,000 EV Sedan could very well be way better than anything anyone else has produced in a long time. This includes the S-class Maybach, Royals Royce, etc.

We know from Lemans racing that when the US companies want to step up, they can put forth competing products. Maybe this is the time that Cadillac truly does produce a worthy 6 figure sedan.

Maybe but GM changes management every 5 years and Johan was supposed to be the savior of Cadillac and that didn’t happen either.

Really what is important here is can GM beat the Tesla Model 3 or whatever Electric RAV4 or CRV come out.  That is the meat of the market, are these Chevy EV’s going to heat Toyota or Tesla who have strong reputation and buyer loyalty.

Even if they can sell 5,000 super expensive Cadillacs a year that isn’t going to move the needle. And even worldwide I doubt they hit 5,000 sales per year.

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Maybe but GM changes management every 5 years and Johan was supposed to be the savior of Cadillac and that didn’t happen either.

Really what is important here is can GM beat the Tesla Model 3 or whatever Electric RAV4 or CRV come out.  That is the meat of the market, are these Chevy EV’s going to heat Toyota or Tesla who have strong reputation and buyer loyalty.

Even if they can sell 5,000 super expensive Cadillacs a year that isn’t going to move the needle. And even worldwide I doubt they hit 5,000 sales per year.

Yet you say 5,000 Maybachs are big profit for MB, so why not for GM doing the same thing.

48 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yet you say 5,000 Maybachs are big profit for MB, so why not for GM doing the same thing.

Maybach is a trim level though.

51 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Maybach is a trim level though.

Yes on top of the S-class so maybe 10,000 get sold, still profit and Cadillac can do that too. Nothing to say they cannot till they try and if they do go cheap on the inside then you will have every right to say " I told you so" YET till they try you really have no clue if it will succeed or not.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Really what is important here is can GM beat the Tesla Model 3 or whatever Electric RAV4 or CRV come out.  That is the meat of the market, are these Chevy EV’s going to heat Toyota or Tesla who have strong reputation and buyer loyalty.

This is the real issue for GM.  Toyota did not have the 70s and 80s and 90s be a total cluster***k like GM did.  Tesla never went through BK like GM did.  GM needs to convince everyone born after 1980  that they have the best vehicles (especially EVs) bar none.  Now there will be a struggle (CR dislikes most things GM going back about 50 years or so), but it must be done where it matters:  The Equinox EV and its smaller and larger brethren must be better than Toyota and Tesla (and a better value!), otherwise GM is woefully screwed for the next generation or two.