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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    Rumorpile: GM Considers Dropping Six Passenger Vehicles (UPDATED)

    Three Chevrolets, Two Cadillacs, and A Buick

    General Motors has been seeing sales of their passenger cars take a sharp drop as buyers latch on to crossovers, SUVs, and trucks. The first half of 2017 has seen GM's passenger car sales drop 19 percent. In June, passenger cars went into freefall with a 36 percent drop. This has General Motors making some drastic decisions in terms of products and production sites.

    "We are talking to (GM) right now about the products that they currently have" at underused car plants such as Hamtramck in Michigan and Lordstown in Ohio, and whether they might be replaced with newer, more popular vehicles such as crossovers, said Dennis Williams, president of the UAW.

    According to sources, GM is considering dropping six models after 2020. The models include,

    • Buick LaCrosse
    • Cadillac CT6  (See Update Below)
    • Cadillac XTS
    • Chevrolet Impala
    • Chevrolet Sonic
    • Chevrolet Volt

    Four of the vehicles listed (LaCrosse, CT6, Impala, and Volt) are built GM’s Hamtramck plant in Detroit. According to suppliers, Hamtramack's production output for the first half of 2017 is less than 35,000 vehicles, down 32 percent when compared to the same time last year. Other GM plants are able to produce 200,000 - 300,000 vehicles in a year, putting Hamtramck in a dangerous spot.

    GM must "create some innovative new products" to replace slow-selling sedans "or start closing plants," said Sam Fiorani, vice president of AutoForecast Solutions.

    A possibility of a new product is replacing the Volt with some sort of utility vehicle boasting a plug-in hybrid powertrain according to sources.

    Source: Reuters

    UPDATE: “There is absolutely, if I could speak all capitals now, they’d be coming out of my mouth. There is absolutely no plan, at all, to cancel the CT6,” said Cadillac president Johan de Nysschen to Jalopnik when asked about this report from Reuters.

    “That report came as a surprise to me, too.”

    de Nysschen said the brand is planning to invest more into the CT6 in the coming years as it will play an important role in the coming years.

    “The [CT6] forms a very important part of our product strategy going forward for the brand,” de Nysschen said. “The car also has a very major contribution to make to the shaping of brand perceptions, and the transformational process that Cadillac is undergoing as far as that is concerned.”

    Source: Jalopnik

    Edited by William Maley


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    Been saying it since day one, that a Volt Powertrain CUV would do much better than a 4 door car. The rest are pretty much understandable.

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    Sonic, Impala, Lacrosse, and CT6 would all be a damn shame to lose. I hate crossover culture. This is how the second renaissance of performance will die.

    The most painful loss is the CT6 because of the massive investment in the Omega platform and the sheer missed potential of a more dramatically styled sedan flagship. I'm still hoping a refreshed CT6 can help it shine. The Impala and Lacrosse are simply the finest big sedans for the money. They get 30+ mpg highway with great V6 engines and sit 4 people plus abundant luggage very comfortably. Totally underappreciated cars in favor of less efficient, bulky crossovers with crap dynamics.

    I'm actually surprised the Sonic is already out the door. The model was a major success long after it was introduced, and owes at least some of the dwindling sales to its age losing competitiveness. A second generation could have been a truly outstanding car, especially if we saw a genuine performance model.

    The Volt can easily be transitioned into a compact crossover. It's silly that a electric/hybrid car that good is a losing proposition for GM when an inferior car like the Prius rakes in endless sales volume.

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    35 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

    Sonic, Impala, Lacrosse, and CT6 would all be a damn shame to lose. I hate crossover culture. This is how the second renaissance of performance will die.

    The most painful loss is the CT6 because of the massive investment in the Omega platform and the sheer missed potential of a more dramatically styled sedan flagship. I'm still hoping a refreshed CT6 can help it shine. The Impala and Lacrosse are simply the finest big sedans for the money. They get 30+ mpg highway with great V6 engines and sit 4 people plus abundant luggage very comfortably. Totally underappreciated cars in favor of less efficient, bulky crossovers with crap dynamics.

    I'm actually surprised the Sonic is already out the door. The model was a major success long after it was introduced, and owes at least some of the dwindling sales to its age losing competitiveness. A second generation could have been a truly outstanding car, especially if we saw a genuine performance model.

    The Volt can easily be transitioned into a compact crossover. It's silly that a electric/hybrid car that good is a losing proposition for GM when an inferior car like the Prius rakes in endless sales volume.

    Quoted in its entirety for truth...especially the big Buick!

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    The Sonic is a lame duck, the Malibu is better than the Impala, the Lacrosse is redundant, the XTS is even more redundant, the Volt is the right powertrain in the wrong car, and the CT6 is what the CTS should have been.

    Nothing surprising here. I would argue nothing of real value, either.

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    actually it would make more sense to replace the Sonic with a made in Korea piece and get rid of the Spark.

    I still don't get the anti-Impala ness.  It sells very well here and many folks want a v6 sedan.  I get that sedans are decreasing but i would actually enlarge the Impala and make it v6 unique.  Believe me, I drive a Malibu and there is still room for a plush, more solid larger sedan like the Impala.

    As long as Buick has the chinese Lacrosse there is no point to not offer it here.  the problem is they screwed the pooch on the design.

    The opportunity here is for the next Impala and 'Avenir' to be on a better platform.

    I don't think they will get rid of the CT6 but i think they may repackage it and rename it.  Cadillac still badly needs a king size car.  They are dragging out the XTS because its cheaper to build, but there will be some point where it does become obsolete.

    What's at work here is 3 things.  one is stupid unbearable govt and its noose tightening CAFE keeps putting pressure on weeding out large vehicles with bigger engines.  Two, for plant manufacturing planning, and to make anything here, the costs keep going up and they have to find vehicle configs and pricing that allow us to keep making SOME of our vehicles here.  They have to be vehicles that have big margins and not very small production numbers.  Third is I think they are trying to kill off a large sedan platform to save development costs.  But that doesn't wash for me because the LaCrosse is a stretched Regal / malibu now anyways.

     

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    Volt should have become Malibu sized.  They can do that by changing the Malibu hybrid to plug in and problem solved.  Maybe make it a Malibu hatch with plug in.

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    Going one by one here:

    The Impala/LaCrosse/XTS trio are dropping now, that market isn't coming back, by 2019 sales will be so small on that trio there will be no reason to continue with any of them.  And they are all related, so they all die together.

    The Sonic is another hurting car in a hurting segment.  With the Spark at the bottom, they can import from Korea for the few that they sell.  Cruze and Malibu can eat the volume just as Honda gets by with Civic and Accord.  

    The Volt they can drop, because post 2020, many cars will be a hybrid or plug-in hybrid.  So the technology stays, but they can put that tech in a Malibu, Equinox, Traverse, etc.

    CT6 could be dropped, but I'd be surprised to see them drop the Omega platform.   Unless Omega can't support a crossover, then even with CTS moving to it and CT6, that isn't enough volume to make the platform viable, and they can just keep building the CTS off the Alpha chassis with Camaro and ATS.

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    I can't see a business case for a $13K Spark AND a $15K Sonic.
    But the Spark is hideous in & out, I would dump it for the Sonic anyday (I've driven a Spark, but not a Sonic).
    There's serious overlap there.

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    Personally, I suspect that the CT6 will survive.  Until further notice, the Escalade is NOT the flagship for Cadillac.  Few would ever accept that as a possibility.

    The underlying technology of the Volt will survive and spread, even if the Volt does not.  Why there is no Volt crossover puzzles me.

    As for Epsilon 2XXX (i.e. the Impala, Lacrosse and the XTS), one will certainly go and probably two.  The XTS is a little too backwards looking and not quite Cadillac enough anymore.  The Impala for some reason is being rejected for Traverses and Equinoxes.  And the Lacrosse may end up suffering the same fate as the Lucerne did in 2011.  No more large sedans is in my view rather sad, but time marches on.  It wasn't that long ago wagons were everywhere, only to be supplanted by minivans in the '90s.

    As for the Sonic, I have no idea why Chevy has a Spark AND a Sonic.  One of them will go soon.

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    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    I can't see a business case for a $13K Spark AND a $15K Sonic.
    But the Spark is hideous in & out, I would dump it for the Sonic anyday (I've driven a Spark, but not a Sonic).
    There's serious overlap there.

    Could merge into one product, but they need a cheap entry level car to compete with Versa, Accent, Fiesta, whatever Mitsubishi there is.  The Versa starts at like $11,800.  So they keep the cheap Spark, it is made in South Korea with cheaper labor.  Then the Cruze becomes the middle, Malibu the top.  3 Sedan/Hatch type cars is enough, because they have the Camaro too.

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    Wow...got this one on the nose!

    As much as it breaks my heart to say that-GM doesn't need any of these models anymore....(good bye, Impy.:cry: )

    With cars now on the forever slide, better keep the most popular ones now. Though they could bring them back if they needed to (like the colorado)

    I'm going to miss the days of all the choices we had, but with the market on the downward trend- they are trying to keep their best choices around....

    Maybe I'll look into GM's last american made compact before it heads to mexico....:(

    Though I say after looking at the hatch, quality won't suffer though....

    Also figure this will only be the first round of model cuts.....

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    6 hours ago, balthazar said:

    I can't see a business case for a $13K Spark AND a $15K Sonic.
    But the Spark is hideous in & out, I would dump it for the Sonic anyday (I've driven a Spark, but not a Sonic).
    There's serious overlap there.

    Eh, they're both toast at some point.

    In the near future, I really think we are looking at 30k as the new entry level.......

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    Quite honestly, the XTS should have died 3 years ago.  So that is not a big loss. Its a NECESSITY actually to finally break free of a certain era that Cadillac itself is struggling with itself to shed.  

    Yes. No.

    Either go full on performance luxury or go full on quiet luxury. DO NOT do both. Its confusing for the would be customer.  The CT6 is in the middle of this mess.

    Clowns to the left of it (CTS), jokers to the right (XTS)...here it is stuck in the middle with you!

    The CTS should have been STS which should have been the CT6. Or should the XTS be reincarnated as the CT6?

    Is the CT6 a quiet luxury car like the ΧΤS or is the CT6 a performance luxury car like the CTS?

    Is the CTS the CT6? The so called name sounds the same...

    Is the CT8 Omega based? Is it still on?

    Is the CT5 Alpha based? Its not as if the CTS is setting world records for sales either!!!

    The ATS morphing into the CT3....and Cadillac wants to go smaller???!!

    Crossovers are selling....yeah....I see several Cadillac sedans getting the axe here not only the CT6 and the XTS....

    But in all honesty, I think the CT5 will never make off the ground. I think the CT6 will get better marketing and therefore stay. After all, a TTV8 is scheduled for it .

    The Escala will be the CT8.

    The CT3 will never get off the ground either methinks.

    The CT3 and the CT5 will get axed in favour of CUVs. The XT5 is here already and doing well.

    The XTS V powertrain should have made it unto the Lacrosse to distance itself away from the Impala AND the Regal because in 2018, even the Regal is too close to the Lacrosse. 

    The Impala never really took off like it should have. The 2nd generation Equinox should have been a bloody clue that big sedans were dead men walking as the Equinox exploded in sales year after year and its highest being 5 years AFTER its introduction almost doubling its first year sales while the Impala had a fraction of those sales...

    Ditto for the Lamba SUVs. Those just continued on selling and those were as old as the 1st generation Theta SUVs.

    The Malibu grew bigger on the inside to almost Impala levels of interior space, designed to look like the Impala all for a cheaper price than the Impala.

    All that is sealing the Impala's fate. Ditto for the Lacrosse because all that applies to the Lacrosse. The Lacrosse also has its own Malibu scenario in the Regal. Not too mention that the Impala and the Lacrosse are cannibalizing each other with the little sales that are left for each other.

    The Volt....

    I dont think it will get the axe. At the very least, the Volt's tech will find its way into a SUV type body. The name Volt does not necessarily mean it has to go away either....

    The Chevy Trax takes care of the Sonic. No big loss there!

    If cheap entry level car is needed. The Trax could be decontented to be sold on the cheap. It has the the Buick version selling like hot cakes to balance out the profit margins.

    Heck, give a version to Cadillac (obviously NOT as a badge engineered model!) to sell at a higher still price and voila!

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    >>...a quiet luxury car... or a performance luxury car?<<

    EVERY luxury brand does degrees of both. Some folk seem to want to hold Cadillac to a one-dimensional point in space AFA 'definition' goes, whereas the competition generally has a far wider range of product by 'definition' than Cadillac.

    >>.DO NOT do both. Its confusing for the would be customer.<<
    Absolutely do both. It's NOT confusing. Tastes & trends ebb & flow, diversity is key to anticipating that. With lambo/ferrari/porsche becoming truck manufacturers, there is no one dimensionality in the auto industry... not if you want to survive.

    CT6 is the spearhead going into the future. It's EASY to use another supplier and upgrade -say- your leather upholstery. Nailing class-leading chassis dynamics/technology AND weight in one move is what's hard. That's the foundation for a vehicle's success right there- everything else beyond that & powertrain is icing.

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    The Omega chassis doesn't have enough global volume.  The profit margins probably aren't so high on the CT6 when other big sedans sell for $30,000 more.  So if there isn't a change in the formula the CT6 and that chassis are dead.

    They need an Omega based crossover to get the volume.  But when Cadillac can rebadge and Enclave and sell it for $60k and they have the Escalade, will product planners want to spend money on an Omega crossover?

    Chevy and GMC could each take on 2 more crossovers, that is 4 products that they could build in Hamtramck.  But you also have to wonder if you even need more styles of crossovers?  Crossovers are so homogeneous between brands and buyers don't care, car companies can limit choices and the people will still buy them.

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    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    >>...a quiet luxury car... or a performance luxury car?<<

    EVERY luxury brand does degrees of both. Some folk seem to want to hold Cadillac to a one-dimensional point in space AFA 'definition' goes, whereas the competition generally has a far wider range of product by 'definition' than Cadillac.

    >>.DO NOT do both. Its confusing for the would be customer.<<
    Absolutely do both. It's NOT confusing. Tastes & trends ebb & flow, diversity is key to anticipating that. With lambo/ferrari/porsche becoming truck manufacturers, there is no one dimensionality in the auto industry... not if you want to survive.

    CT6 is the spearhead going into the future. It's EASY to use another supplier and upgrade -say- your leather upholstery. Nailing class-leading chassis dynamics/technology AND weight in one move is what's hard. That's the foundation for a vehicle's success right there- everything else beyond that & powertrain is icing.

    Yeah...that is why Cadillac sedans sales are through the roof...

    What little sales gains they have...are of the SUV  variety....and in China...

    So yeah...do both...for China....

    In the USA....well...a tad more FOCUSED strategy is in order....

    Its fine if we both dont agree on this....

    But....take a look at US sales...on this path...Cadillac will just be a crossover seller...

    PS: Please dont tell me with a straight face that  what Cadillac is doing is anything but confusing...

    If it wasnt confusing...then month by  month sales of ALL its sedans would NOT be down in the USA...

    If it wasnt confusing....then the CT6 would have had SUBSTANTIAL sales gains...like the ΧT5...

    PSS: Cadillac is selling a ton of vehicles in...CHINA.

    For the first time in history....Cadillac sells  more outside its home base.

    I think we are letting that bit of good news clout our judgement about what really is going on in the USA...

     

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    Well oldshurst, it is not that we do not care what GM is doing in China.  It is that most of us care about what is sold here. 

    Sure, Cadillac could use some clarity here.  They ultimately need to decide whether the standard is defeating BMW or Lexus.  The XTS is a dead car walking at this point.  An Omega crossover would work wonders for Cadillac and keep the CT6 on dealer lots and make the platform $$$ case better.  Cadillac does NOT need an Enclave clone; it needs an upgraded CUV to take care of the large luxury CUV segment.  The XT5 is doing well in its midsize luxury CUV segment, especially against the Lexus RX.  The ATS seems to be doing OK but can do better.  Historically, Cadillac has been the smooth ride luxury leader for decades, but the market switched to the Germans back in the '80s and especially after Lexus debuted in 1990.  I wish I had an answer for Cadillac's situation. 

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    9 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    Well oldshurst, it is not that we do not care what GM is doing in China.  It is that most of us care about what is sold here. 

    Sure, Cadillac could use some clarity here.  They ultimately need to decide whether the standard is defeating BMW or Lexus.  The XTS is a dead car walking at this point.  An Omega crossover would work wonders for Cadillac and keep the CT6 on dealer lots and make the platform $$$ case better.  Cadillac does NOT need an Enclave clone; it needs an upgraded CUV to take care of the large luxury CUV segment.  The XT5 is doing well in its midsize luxury CUV segment, especially against the Lexus RX.  The ATS seems to be doing OK but can do better.  Historically, Cadillac has been the smooth ride luxury leader for decades, but the market switched to the Germans back in the '80s and especially after Lexus debuted in 1990.  I wish I had an answer for Cadillac's situation. 

     

    9 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    Well oldshurst, it is not that we do not care what GM is doing in China.  It is that most of us care about what is sold here. 

    Well...yes!

    What Cadillac is doing here!

    And what is that?

    http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/cadillac/

    The ATS is in free fall...

     

     
    Cadillac
    ATS
    2016 21.505
    2015 26.873
    2014 29.890
    2013 38.319
    2012 7.008

     

    Month to month in 2017 does not seem promising

     
    Cadillac
    ATS
    2014
    Cadillac
    ATS
    2015
    Cadillac
    ATS
    2016
    Cadillac
    ATS
    2017
    January 1.909 1.757 1.067 974
    February 2.427 2.028 1.591 1.005
    March 2.982 2.039 1.859 1.367
    April 2.737 2.119 1.737 1.405
    May 2.497 2.353 1.630 1.273
    June 2.358 2.211 1.880 1.185
    July 2.582 1.588 2.119  
    August 2.804 2.449 2.477  
    September 2.239 2.295 1.770  
    October 2.608 2.528 1.593  
    November 2.282 2.055 1.490  
    December 2.465 3.451 2.292  

     

    The CTS also in decline...a joke is more like it!!!

     
    Cadillac
    CTS
    2016 15.911
    2015 19.485
    2014 31.115
    2013 32.343
    2012 46.979
    2011 55.042
    2010 45.656
    2009 38.817
    2008 58.774
    2007 57.029
    2006 54.846
    2005 61.512
    2004 57.211
    2003 49.392
    2002 37.976

     

    In 2017...its presence is ghost like....

     

     
    Cadillac
    CTS
    2014
    Cadillac
    CTS
    2015
    Cadillac
    CTS
    2016
    Cadillac
    CTS
    2017
    January 2.232 1.698 1.013 691
    February 2.509 1.438 1.461 913
    March 2.918 1.500 1.499 882
    April 3.270 1.726 1.335 873
    May 2.905 1.792 1.082 854
    June 2.174 1.535 1.516 846
    July 2.039 1.515 1.313  
    August 2.592 1.730 1.426  
    September 2.282 1.319 1.503  
    October 3.096 1.567 1.024  
    November 2.446 1.224 1.042  
    December 2.652 2.441 1.697  

     

    The CT6...for a brand new model is pathetic...

     
    Cadillac
    CT6
    2016
    Cadillac
    CT6
    2017
    January 0 634
    February 0 802
    March 35 968
    April 285 978
    May 697 1.001
    June 962 1.014
    July 827  
    August 1.242  
    September 1.343  
    October 1.316  
    November 1.169  
    December 1.293  

     

    But at least its sales are on the up....

    So....please dont tell me the marketing in the US is NOT confusing....

    17 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    The XTS is a dead car walking at this point.  An Omega crossover would work wonders for Cadillac and keep the CT6

    Sure....but like I said....Cadillac is heading to be EXACTLY just that in the USA....a crossover seller.

     

    18 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    Cadillac does NOT need an Enclave clone; it needs an upgraded CUV to take care of the large luxury CUV segment.  The XT5 is doing well in its midsize luxury CUV segment, especially against the Lexus RX. 

    You better believe it needs an Enclave clone in the USA.

    Yes....just like the SRX before it...the XT5 is doing awesome. And THAT is why Cadillac needs an Enclave lone as its sedans are non-existent States side...

    20 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    The ATS seems to be doing OK but can do better.

    My link suggests otherwise....

    21 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    Historically, Cadillac has been the smooth ride luxury leader for decades, but the market switched to the Germans back in the '80s and especially after Lexus debuted in 1990.  I wish I had an answer for Cadillac's situation. 

    Yes....but that all changed in the early 1990s when they realized what was up with the Germans with the FWD STS Northstar . Its just that Cadillac half assed that strategy. It continued to half-ass that strategy with the Cadillac that was suppose to Zig and Zag with the Opel Omega based Catera thing. 1st generation and 2nd generation CTS was a good direction but 3rd gen RWD STS was a strategy that was half-assed again...

    1st generation ATS and 3rd generation CTS along with the name change with the CT6 just confused the shyte out of potential buyers...

    27 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    I wish I had an answer for Cadillac's situation. 

    I do too,, buddy!

    I do too!

    But I am NOT afraid to call a spade a spade.

    Some of us are though!!!

     

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    >>Yeah...that is why Cadillac sedans sales are through the roof...
    Please dont tell me with a straight face that  what Cadillac is doing is anything but confusing...
    If it wasnt confusing...then month by  month sales of ALL its sedans would NOT be down in the USA...<<

    "Confusion" is not the causation behind sales. If you disagree, please post your data.
    I'm not remotely confused by Cadillac's catalog (and I've never owned one).
    Or perhaps you are right and 'confusion' is more widespread than you think :

    AUDI ~
    A3 : down 29% (1904 units/June)
    A6 : down 4% (1425 units)
    A7 : down 25% (224 units)
    A8 : down 18% (301 units)
    Only the 'non-confusing' A4 & A5 are up.

    Look up the other segment sedans- are they also 'confusing'?

    >>PSS: Cadillac is selling a ton of vehicles in...CHINA.<<
    They use the same names there- why aren't the Chinese 'confused'?

    >>For the first time in history....Cadillac sells  more outside its home base.<<
    That's actually a very GOOD track record - the Germans crossed that line DECADES ago.
    Haven't many people lamented Cadillac is a 'U.S. market only' vehicle, to it's detriment?

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    46 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    >>Yeah...that is why Cadillac sedans sales are through the roof...
    Please dont tell me with a straight face that  what Cadillac is doing is anything but confusing...
    If it wasnt confusing...then month by  month sales of ALL its sedans would NOT be down in the USA...<<

    "Confusion" is not the causation behind sales. If you disagree, please post your data.
    I'm not remotely confused by Cadillac's catalog (and I've never owned one).
    Or perhaps you are right and 'confusion' is more widespread than you think :

    AUDI ~
    A3 : down 29% (1904 units/June)
    A6 : down 4% (1425 units)
    A7 : down 25% (224 units)
    A8 : down 18% (301 units)
    Only the 'non-confusing' A4 & A5 are up.

    Look up the other segment sedans- are they also 'confusing'?

    >>PSS: Cadillac is selling a ton of vehicles in...CHINA.<<
    They use the same names there- why aren't the Chinese 'confused'?

    >>For the first time in history....Cadillac sells  more outside its home base.<<
    That's actually a very GOOD track record - the Germans crossed that line DECADES ago.
    Haven't many people lamented Cadillac is a 'U.S. market only' vehicle, to it's detriment?

     

    46 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I'm not remotely confused by Cadillac's catalog (and I've never owned one).
    Or perhaps you are right and 'confusion' is more widespread than you think :

    AUDI ~
    A3 : down 29% (1904 units/June)
    A6 : down 4% (1425 units)
    A7 : down 25% (224 units)
    A8 : down 18% (301 units)
    Only the 'non-confusing' A4 & A5 are up.

    Look up the other segment sedans- are they also 'confusing'?

    The average Joe is confused....put blinders on. I dont care.

    But Ill show you how Audi and BMW wipe the floor with Cadillac...confusion or not...it dont matter.  Cadillac sedan sales are in the dumpster.

    Is it confusion? It dont matter. You could use semantics to try to dismiss Cadillac sales mediocrity...

    The ATS MAIN competition

    http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/

     

     
    BMW
    3-series / 4-series
    2014
    BMW
    3-series / 4-series
    2015
    BMW
    3-series / 4-series
    2016
    BMW
    3-series / 4-series
    2017
    January 6.494 7.348 5.119 5.976
    February 7.791 8.748 7.278 7.220
    March 10.120 14.835 10.928 9.521
    April 9.794 10.374 7.907 7.376
    May 10.915 12.868 11.017 8.348
    June 11.543 13.516 10.003 9.617
    July 12.497 10.919 8.985  
    August 12.477 13.103 8.170  
    September 12.814 11.871 9.721  
    October 13.621 14.307 8.068  
    November 14.702 11.857 8.651  
    December 19.464 10.863 10.374  

     

     
    BMW
    3-series / 4-series
    2016 106.221
    2015 140.609
    2014 142.232
    2013 119.521
    2012 99.602
    2011 94.371
    2010 100.910
    2009 90.960
    2008 112.464
    2007 142.490
    2006 120.180
    2005 106.950
    2004 106.549
    2003 111.944
    2002 115.428
    2001 103.227
    2000 89.681
    1999 77.138
    1998 57.520
    1997 52.472
    1996 50.248
    1995 50.146
    1994 46.287
    1993 45.594
    1992 38.040
    1991 29.002
    1990 22.825
    1989 21.738
    1988 34.914
    1987 58.897
    1986 61.822
    1985 53.927
    1984 30.868
    1983 33.602
    1982 35.190
    1981 28.927
    1980 25.771

     

    http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/audi/audi-a4/

     

     
    Audi
    A4 / S4
    2014
    Audi
    A4 / S4
    2015
    Audi
    A4 / S4
    2016
    Audi
    A4 / S4
    2017
    January 2.194 1.563 1.325 1.737
    February 2.216 1.743 1.827 2.377
    March 3.334 2.266 3.226 3.876
    April 3.167 2.327 2.983 3.246
    May 3.123 2.785 2.756 3.011
    June 3.365 2.863 2.802 3.022
    July 2.717 2.433 2.612  
    August 3.233 2.743 2.965  
    September 2.480 2.221 3.175  
    October 2.268 2.896 3.864  
    November 2.699 2.418 3.143  
    December 3.197 3.426 4.009  

     

     
    Audi
    A4 / S4
    2016 34.687
    2015 29.013
    2014 33.993
    2013 36.744
    2012 35.415
    2011 35.234
    2010 34.672
    2009 37.070
    2008 43.343
    2007 45.411
    2006 49.862
    2005 48.922
    2004 47.168
    2003 51.043
    2002 44.319
    2001 35.739
    2000 34.460
    1999 32.137
    1998 26.635
    1997 20.871
    1996 15.288
    1995 0

     

     

    Im not even gonna try to prove how  crappy the  CTS sales are  compared to the Audi A6 and the BMW 5 Series....you know...the  CTS' MAIN competition.

     

    Arent you a main believer of who cares what is happening OUTSIDE the US?

    Well...maybe its the semantics argument that you care about mostly...

    What is bugging you the most is the confusion argument...

    Hey...

    You may be right
    I may be crazy
    But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
    Turn out the light
    Don't try to save me
    You may be wrong for all I know
    Im probably right!!!

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    Yes, the #1 seller in the segment makes ALL OTHER competitor sales numbers look 'bad'. Thanks for the heavy lifting.

    You're falling into the same 'metric hole' that smk does- sales mean everything and anyone who's not #1 is 'dying' or needs to be killed off.
    All the negative press centered around Cadillac sales numbers when -in the U.S. market- audi is in the same volume boat. Where is the hand-wringing over audi pulling out of the U.S. market? When Cadillac annual sales dropped 8% 2 years ago, it was all 'tailspin' and 'slumping', but when BMW shows the same degree of drop; nary a whisper.

    Cadillac is not a full-line, high volume, mass-market brand, I don't know what's so frickin hard to understand about that. They just aren't and they're not angling to be.

    Corvette is "wiping the floor" vs. 911 in U.S. sales, 13707 vs. 4395 thru June. Should Porsche change up it's "confusing" catalog? Should they consider dropping the 911? Consolidate the Boxster/Cayman/911 into one car (total sales 6869 thru June)? Those are 'crappy sales numbers' vs. it's MAIN competition (I'm aware the 911 starts @ $89K- all hi-po sports car purchases are disposable income- the price tier thing is far less relevant that in other segments) Guess what- no one gives a shit how few 911's sell relative to other hi-po sports cars (except Porsche accountants, perhaps). Everybody is just happy a competitive, cool sports coupe exists to buy.

    Tho Cadillac has not shown me their books, I am confident they are highly profitable overall, and with limited production capacity- they may want to grow slowly if at all. Perhaps... JUST perhaps; the brand is more concerned with PROFIT over volume. None of us here can make any calls on that issue; no data.

    - - - - -

    BMW 3/4 series : 48,058 thru June.
    Audi A-4 : 17,269 thru June.
    Cadillac ATS : 7,209 thru June.

    Numbers-wise, the 3/4-Series is wiping the floor with the A-4. Yes, and there's a considerable volume margin between the A-4 & ATS, also.

    I DON'T CARE. I would NEVER buy a car based on how many OTHER people buy that car- that's immaterial. Where would Tesla be if people approached their early product with the same mindset?
    Is the ATS, physically, competitive in it's segment? Obviously; it is. Is it profitable for it's maker? That is an unknown, but gets back to the business case of whether or not it's 'healthy' for the brand. Beyond that, and any question of reliability/longevity... if the car appeals to ME and I'm agreeable to the price, I'll buy it.

    • Thanks 1

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