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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    NADA's CEO is Concerned About Consumers Being Priced Out

      Even NADA's CEO is wondering where are the affordable vehicles

    Ask Peter Welch, the CEO of the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA) what worries him the most, he'll admit that it is average consumers getting priced out of new cars.

    He admitted this yesterday at the Automotive News World Congress in Detroit. Welch said that the latest figures he has seen - through October of last year - reveal the average retail price of a new car climbing to a new high of $35,366. The average monthly payment is hovering at $538, and interest rates have climbed to an average of 5.76 percent (new) and 9 percent (used). Longer loan terms are becoming common, with the average length standing at 64.3 months.

    "You know, people buying $55,000 pickup trucks with $1,000-a-month payments — I've never seen it. A lot of people don't think that's sustainable," said Welch.

    "That is going to put a giant dent in the SAARs and it almost makes me wonder if at some point we're going to see another Henry Ford," offering new and more affordable vehicles.

    Aside from more people buying more expensive trucks and utility vehicles, Welch said other reasons for the increases in prices come down to new fuel economy standards and safety equipment. He sees new car prices rising towards $40,000 with $800 monthly payments.

    On a slightly positive note, NADA predicts that 16.8 million light vehicles will be sold in 2019. While down from 17.3 million in 2018, Welch notes there are some positive economic indicators "such as high employment rates, a solid GDP and a healthy economy overall."

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required) 

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    14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    So true, Auto companies have got to find a way to get basic starter auto's out for people in college and right out of college, otherwise we are truly headed to a cast system.

    Absolutely.

    Not everybody has a family income of 100k. It isn't uncommon for younger people to start making 30k out of college with monster loans.

    24 minutes ago, William Maley said:

    The average monthly payment is hovering at $538

    Seriously? This is average? ?

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    24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Absolutely.

    Not everybody has a family income of 100k. It isn't uncommon for younger people to start making 30k out of college with monster loans.

    Seriously? This is average? ?

    Yeah...I don't know how people manage big car payments...especially with big mortgages. 

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    46 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Yeah...I don't know how people manage big car payments...especially with big mortgages. 

    Totally agree, I saved up for 3yrs to buy my Escalade and still financed 1/3 of the price. Mortgage, car loans, student loans, regular credit cards, home costs, maintenance, costs have gotten out of control in comparison to income.

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    I remember a decade ago, when the politicians and the greenie folk were scolding the Detroit Big3 CEOs why do they keep on producing gas guzzling SUVs and the Detroit Big3 CEOs defended themselves by saying that that is what the consumers want.

    The politicians and the greenie folk all said bullshyte on that and forced FoMoCo, GM and Chryco. to produce smaller more economical cars...

    This is how Obamas new mileage standards came to be...

    THIS is how we got small displacement 4 bangers with turbos in our cars.

    THIS is how FoMoCo. got the name ecoboost from...

    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/business/19emissions.html

     

     

    Quote

     

    One ranking industry official said that the administration wanted to get the new mileage rules in place before General Motors made a decision on a bankruptcy filing, which could happen by the end of this month. The new rules also provide some certainty for Chrysler, which is already under bankruptcy protection, so that it can plan its future models.

    To meet the new federal standards, auto companies will have to drastically change their product lineups in a relatively short time.

    The companies have declined so far to comment on the costs involved in meeting a fleet standard of 35 miles a gallon. For starters, the automakers will probably have to sharply reduce the number of low-mileage models, like pickup trucks and large sedans.

    The president’s decision will also accelerate the development of smaller cars and engines already under way.

     

     

    As you coud see, a decade later and the consumers NEVER gave two shytes about what greenies and politicians cared for...

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    I am not a fan of the new CAFE standards put in several years ago.

    The real issue is keeping up with the Joneses when it comes to everything, not just cars.  I cannot blame the president of NADA for lamenting high new car prices.  He should blame the automakers for the start of leasing cars 35 years ago in the first place.  Without car leases, the race towards higher-priced vehicles slows down.  There are also too many 60-72 month car notes out there too.  I thought that Hyundai/KIA would actually force prices down.  Instead they joined all others in their car pricing too, with slightly lower pricing.  Also, cars are not falling apart like they used to 30-45 years back, so new car replacements are less likely.  If it wasn't for used car pricing, car sales may end up being half of what they are. 

    Where is the $10,000 small crossover?  Where is the $8000 small sedan and/or hatchback?

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    1 hour ago, frogger said:

    There definitely won't be any big car payment for me until the mortgage debt is under 500k lol.

     

    Mine is under 100k and I still don't want big payments. I enjoy tools, eating out, good wine, travel, good books, live hockey...and a bunch of other things.

    Even if I had Mitt Romney level money I can't see going beyond the thirties for a personal car purchase...

    Okay...maybe a CTS V or a Shelby Mustang...but only if I can pay cash for it new.

    And even then clean Shelbys and V cars are available used in the thirties all day long.

    14 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    I am not a fan of the new CAFE standards put in several years ago.

    The real issue is keeping up with the Joneses when it comes to everything, not just cars.  I cannot blame the president of NADA for lamenting high new car prices.  He should blame the automakers for the start of leasing cars 35 years ago in the first place.  Without car leases, the race towards higher-priced vehicles slows down.  There are also too many 60-72 month car notes out there too.  I thought that Hyundai/KIA would actually force prices down.  Instead they joined all others in their car pricing too, with slightly lower pricing.  Also, cars are not falling apart like they used to 30-45 years back, so new car replacements are less likely.  If it wasn't for used car pricing, car sales may end up being half of what they are. 

    Where is the $10,000 small crossover?  Where is the $8000 small sedan and/or hatchback?

    The Ford Ecosport is as close to a ten grand crossover as you will find. Chevy used to build a very decent bare bones small suv.

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    Find an (online) clean Chevette and marvel at the interior. It had nothing inside, and you sweated. It was 10,000 miles away from a Cadillac/mercedes.

    Now a kia forte HAS to have a leather-wrapped steering wheel, touch screeen, full power features/A/C, active safety warning features, 17" alloy rims, etc etc etc. It even looks like a low end mercedes. How they hell could it possibly be $8000??

    Then we have the supposed wave of electrics coming, just about ALL of them priced 25% higher than their gas counterparts. Heading right toward $40K average price? Yep, I think so; electrics are supercharging that price push.

    If a brand was to offer a quirky, futuristic, Minimalist Kar with a base sound system, A/C, crank windows/manual seats, no heated seats/wheel, no screen, peppy performance, upper class MPG- it has a chance but at those levels it starts to simply compete with used stuff, better equipped. So it hopes to 'win' volume on those who are willing to do without but HAVE to have a brand new car. How many consumers is that pool comprised of?

    I blame the massive upgrading of entry level cars in features and design; it's eroded the degree of difference vs. upper crust cars, and upended the pricing range. Ultimately, a lot more model lines are going to fall- as amenities greatly overlap and size differences are minimal and everyone has 3 or 5 CUVs- the industry sags with oversaturation.

    I've advocated for this before and I still think it has major merits. Less model lines, more variants within the model line. Mainstream brands STILL have too many model lines- it's not going to last ESP if new EV brands actually start producing.

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    2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

    I am not a fan of the new CAFE standards put in several years ago.

    The real issue is keeping up with the Joneses when it comes to everything, not just cars.  I cannot blame the president of NADA for lamenting high new car prices.  He should blame the automakers for the start of leasing cars 35 years ago in the first place.  Without car leases, the race towards higher-priced vehicles slows down.  There are also too many 60-72 month car notes out there too.  I thought that Hyundai/KIA would actually force prices down.  Instead they joined all others in their car pricing too, with slightly lower pricing.  Also, cars are not falling apart like they used to 30-45 years back, so new car replacements are less likely.  If it wasn't for used car pricing, car sales may end up being half of what they are. 

    Where is the $10,000 small crossover?  Where is the $8000 small sedan and/or hatchback?

    Lets add in the other HORROR of auto sales, dealerships that flip an upside down auto value and roll it into a new auto purchase just increasing the debt making it hard for the person to ever pay off the auto.

    @balthazar Gov requirement for all the nanny devices makes having a fully base auto with only say auto trans but manual windows, manual door locks, manual everything an impossible choice as many younger people feel entitled to fully loaded luxury auto's.

    Example is the neighbor that took out a line of credit to buy their son a BMW as he was a marketing graduate and needed to arrive at interviews in a proper auto representing his capabilities according to them.

    STUPID, Job interviews know nothing of what you drive and careless about it as it does not affect if you can do the job.

    I never did that for my kids and see no reason to do it at all. If you want to help with a down payment as a graduation gift, fine your money, but I see no reason for parents to buy their kids luxury auto's and go in debt. :nono:

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    It’s a push toward shared and public transportation, that’s why. About control. People are dumb enough that they would but piles of chit if it was the thing to buy.....

    Having two bare bones Cavaliers over the last ten years make you realize what you can do without. I think they only real add on the cars have seem is a tom Tom GPS.....Having my Nox is like a whole new world compared to the cavs and Cobalt .

    I’d rather not have all my money wrapped up in car and house payments....

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    I can't believe the average new car payment is $538/mth. Here at Rancho Balthy, the highest monthly we've had over... 8 different vehicle loans is $249.  Yet I build & price different new trucks and cringe at the payment which comes in between that low-mid $500 to low $600 range.

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    14 hours ago, William Maley said:

    Welch notes there are some positive economic indicators "such as high employment rates, a solid GDP and a healthy economy overall."

    Even with this reality, losing the cellar is not a good move.  GM fullsize truck prices are exorbitant in nature, for example.  They are trying to extort their loyal customers into paying for an iffy "future".  Homie don't play dat.

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    Prices are getting crazy..anything under $30-35k seems to be fwd/transverse 4cyl appliances, nothing interesting.---just despair gray interior generics.

    Since I drove my last new vehicle 17 years, I'll probably be in my current for a while..but not that long..not going to keep it past 100k miles.

     I've been happy w/ my CPO experience, I can see doing that again... 

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    10 hours ago, daves87rs said:

    It’s a push toward shared and public transportation, that’s why. About control. People are dumb enough that they would but piles of chit if it was the thing to buy.....

     

    But people aren't taking advantage of public transportation. Here are some quotes from a recent article from The Economist that someone posted about a week ago.

    Quote

    The American Public Transportation Association’s figures show that the number of journeys in the country as a whole has fallen in each of the past three years. In 2016-17 every kind of mass public transport became less busy: buses, subways, commuter trains and trams. New Yorkers took 2.8% fewer weekday trips on public transport and 4.2% fewer weekend trips in the 12 months to April 2018, compared with the previous year. In Chicago and Washington, DC, the decline in public-transport trips has been even steeper.

    Quote

    One explanation, which is convincing in some cities, is that public transport has deteriorated. Look at Madrid, says Richard Anderson, a transport analyst at Imperial College London. Public-transport trips fell there beginning in 2008, as you would expect in a recession-hit country where unemployment was rising. In response to the downturn, the city cut services. People noticed, and stayed away. Between 2007 and 2013 the Madrid Metro lost 19% of its customers. Service levels, perceptions and demand have all improved since then, but the Metro remains quieter than it used to be before the financial crisis.

    Quote

    Perhaps public transport has come to seem relatively dismal because people have acquired better options. Uber, Lyft and other “ride-hailing” car services are probably luring people away from trains and buses, just as they are demolishing the taxi trade. In San Francisco public transport accounts for 16% of all weekday trips, ride-hailing for 9%. People mostly seem to use Uber and Lyft to get to places well-served by mass transport (see map). One study of the city by five Californian academics asked ride-hailing customers how they would have made their most recent trip if the service did not exist. One-third replied that they would have taken public transport. In a study of Boston, 42% said the same thing.

     

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    52 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Prices are getting crazy..anything under $30-35k seems to be fwd/transverse 4cyl appliances, nothing interesting.---just despair gray interior generics.

    Since I drove my last new vehicle 17 years, I'll probably be in my current for a while..but not that long..not going to keep it past 100k miles.

     I've been happy w/ my CPO experience, I can see doing that again... 

    CPO seems worthwhile to me also, it is how I bought the bug. Thinking maybe CPO Cherokee. They are priced nicely and are not bland FWD appliances.

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    tumblr_pda42tdoL71v4pyu0o1_1280.jpg

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    16 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    I do not think its the car manufacturers that are pricing the consumers out of new cars. I think its the consumer itself that does it. 

    The consumers DEMANDED fully equipped cars over the decades and have migrated to higher priced CUVs and SUVs and 100 000 doallr work trucks to outshine their neighbors...

    Even if car manufacturers make and produce "affordable" no frill CUVs, the masses will NOT buy them or lease them.

    America has become a voracious consumer oriented society that just wants to outdo their neighbor...

     Yes, I can understand that...in a daily driver, I want the most creature comforts I can get...I couldn't imagine driving a depressing 4cyl FWD econobox w/ a despair gray interior...

     

    5 minutes ago, William Maley said:

     

    6 minutes ago, William Maley said:

    But people aren't taking advantage of public transportation. Here are some quotes from a recent article from The Economist that someone posted about a week ago.

      

      QUOTE

    Perhaps public transport has come to seem relatively dismal because people have acquired better options. Uber, Lyft and other “ride-hailing” car services are probably luring people away from trains and buses, just as they are demolishing the taxi trade. In San Francisco public transport accounts for 16% of all weekday trips, ride-hailing for 9%. People mostly seem to use Uber and Lyft to get to places well-served by mass transport (see map). One study of the city by five Californian academics asked ride-hailing customers how they would have made their most recent trip if the service did not exist. One-third replied that they would have taken public transport. In a study of Boston, 42% said the same thing.

    Public transit isn't really a realistic option here in the suburbs..there are bus lines that run into downtown Cleveland and a light rail, but nothing practical for me.  If I were working downtown or in another suburb, I'd be commuting by SUV as I've done most of my career in other cities.    I do like Uber, I use it occasionally if I don't want to deal w/ parking in some areas or want to have a few drinks at dinner.  Very convenient. 

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    9 hours ago, balthazar said:

    I can't believe the average new car payment is $538/mth. Here at Rancho Balthy, the highest monthly we've had over... 8 different vehicle loans is $249.  Yet I build & price different new trucks and cringe at the payment which comes in between that low-mid $500 to low $600 range.

    I can't agree more! The most I've had was $279/month for me Escape. As long as it is under $300 I don't mind it and I still feel like I'm in control of the loan and not worried about not having the money to ever pay for it.

    My current Focus is $114/month. 

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    45 minutes ago, William Maley said:

    But people aren't taking advantage of public transportation. Here are some quotes from a recent article from The Economist that someone posted about a week ago.

     

    Could this also be due to more companies embracing work from home rather than office space which is costly. ?

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    1 minute ago, dfelt said:

    Could this also be due to more companies embracing work from home rather than office space which is costly. ?

    After doing it the last 18 months, I love working from home/working remotely...definitely driving much less than when I was in a cubicle in Scottsdale. 

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    20 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    After doing it the last 18 months, I love working from home/working remotely...definitely driving much less than when I was in a cubicle in Scottsdale. 

    But then you are sitting at home working, looking out your front window and this happens...

     

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    4 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    But then you are sitting at home working, looking out your front window and this happens...

     

    Heh-heh..what I usually see from my cameras are deer strolling through the front and back yards..

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    1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

    Prices are getting crazy..anything under $30-35k seems to be fwd/transverse 4cyl appliances, nothing interesting.---just despair gray interior generics.

    Since I drove my last new vehicle 17 years, I'll probably be in my current for a while..but not that long..not going to keep it past 100k miles.

     I've been happy w/ my CPO experience, I can see doing that again... 

    The only problem with CPO or lightly used cars, is that everyone who is looking to get a nice CPO vehicle depends on all the people you guys criticize for taking hugely expensive loans and leases.  So if everybody will be "smart" consumer than there will be not enough used cars.  Actually, due to the high prices the used car market is already became worse.

    i think the biggest jump in prices happened when active safety became expected and mandated.  It significantly raised the prices of even base vehicles, raised prices of repair and therefore the insurance.   You guys can bitch about "you don't need all that stuff" you are "excellent drivers" etc, etc, but the fact is these devices work and save lives, which is their purpose.  Same as it was with seat belts, better, more expensive car structure, air bags.  All these previous safety features added to the cost of vehicles as well. historically

    Also, I thought this is an auto enthusiast forum, but it seems to me most people here are perfectly fine driving crappy old appliances.   Believe me, I understand living  within you own means, I have family and bills.  However, I think if you are a car enthusiast than sometimes you need to make some different choices than everyday consumer.

    Just my $0.02 :)

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    39 minutes ago, ykX said:

    The only problem with CPO or lightly used cars, is that everyone who is looking to get a nice CPO vehicle depends on all the people you guys criticize for taking hugely expensive loans and leases.  So if everybody will be "smart" consumer than there will be not enough used cars.  Actually, due to the high prices the used car market is already became worse.

    i think the biggest jump in prices happened when active safety became expected and mandated.  It significantly raised the prices of even base vehicles, raised prices of repair and therefore the insurance.   You guys can bitch about "you don't need all that stuff" you are "excellent drivers" etc, etc, but the fact is these devices work and save lives, which is their purpose.  Same as it was with seat belts, better, more expensive car structure, air bags.  All these previous safety features added to the cost of vehicles as well. historically

    Also, I thought this is an auto enthusiast forum, but it seems to me most people here are perfectly fine driving crappy old appliances.   Believe me, I understand living  within you own means, I have family and bills.  However, I think if you are a car enthusiast than sometimes you need to make some different choices than everyday consumer.

    Just my $0.02 :)

    Which is why some people here do drive nice auto's. :P 

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    20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    I do not think its the car manufacturers that are pricing the consumers out of new cars. I think its the consumer itself that does it. 

    Why is it that Ford is cutting its sedans in favor of producing and selling CUVs and SUVs? 

    Why is GM almost doing the same?

    Why are Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords selling at a slight lesser rate than once before and why is it that Toyota's and Honda's CUVs outselling their sedan counterparts?

    When was the last time you actually saw or heard a suburban wife talk about how she wants to buy (not lease, because leasing too causes the consumer to  out-price himself out of a new car) a base bare bones  compact car?

    It seems suburbanites all want the most recent, option filled truck or SUV and who cares how much it costs... 

    There was a time when down and out folk used to buy pick-up trucks, no options pick-up trucks,  because these were the cheapest means of transportation anybody could buy...

    The consumers DEMANDED fully equipped cars over the decades and have migrated to higher priced CUVs and SUVs and 100 000 doallr work trucks to outshine their neighbors...

    Even if car manufacturers make and produce "affordable" no frill CUVs, the masses will NOT buy them or lease them.

    America has become a voracious consumer oriented society that just wants to outdo their neighbor...

    Excellent points made here. 

    2 hours ago, ykX said:

    The only problem with CPO or lightly used cars, is that everyone who is looking to get a nice CPO vehicle depends on all the people you guys criticize for taking hugely expensive loans and leases.  So if everybody will be "smart" consumer than there will be not enough used cars.  Actually, due to the high prices the used car market is already became worse.

    i think the biggest jump in prices happened when active safety became expected and mandated.  It significantly raised the prices of even base vehicles, raised prices of repair and therefore the insurance.   You guys can bitch about "you don't need all that stuff" you are "excellent drivers" etc, etc, but the fact is these devices work and save lives, which is their purpose.  Same as it was with seat belts, better, more expensive car structure, air bags.  All these previous safety features added to the cost of vehicles as well. historically

    Also, I thought this is an auto enthusiast forum, but it seems to me most people here are perfectly fine driving crappy old appliances.   Believe me, I understand living  within you own means, I have family and bills.  However, I think if you are a car enthusiast than sometimes you need to make some different choices than everyday consumer.

    Just my $0.02 :)

    If I can get my driveway re-shaped, I would like to own a CPO CT6 Platinum in a few years. 

    Right now, it high-centers at the top of the driveway and I believe (I never got it down the driveway to find out) it would scrape at the bottom. 

    Eff it... I just need to buy a new house with a flat driveway. :P

     

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    5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Excellent points made here. 

    If I can get my driveway re-shaped, I would like to own a CPO CT6 Platinum in a few years. 

    Right now, it high-centers at the top of the driveway and I believe (I never got it down the driveway to find out) it would scrape at the bottom. 

    Eff it... I just need to buy a new house with a flat driveway. :P

     

    Our department head drives a CTS wagon...his driveway is sloped and he lives next to a lake. Driveway was frozen up the other night...Caddy didn't want to stop on downhill sheet of ice...almost went into the lake. 

    You BOTH need a flat driveway. 

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    1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Our department head drives a CTS wagon...his driveway is sloped and he lives next to a lake. Driveway was frozen up the other night...Caddy didn't want to stop on downhill sheet of ice...almost went into the lake. 

    You BOTH need a flat driveway. 

    My driveway slopes down and then there is a flat area to park the cars.  Beyond that is a further hill covered in a forest of bamboo.  Coming home last night the bottom of the driveway was iced over and I was going too fast. Almost ended up with the Buick in the Bamboo.

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    14 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Excellent points made here. 

    If I can get my driveway re-shaped, I would like to own a CPO CT6 Platinum in a few years. 

    Right now, it high-centers at the top of the driveway and I believe (I never got it down the driveway to find out) it would scrape at the bottom. 

    Eff it... I just need to buy a new house with a flat driveway. :P

     

    And a big garage :)

    4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    My driveway slopes down and then there is a flat area to park the cars.  Beyond that is a further hill covered in a forest of bamboo.  Coming home last night the bottom of the driveway was iced over and I was going too fast. Almost ended up with the Buick in the Bamboo.

    You need WRX or STi with winter tires :)

    Edited by ykX
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    29 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    I need a wider garage..it's narrower than other 2 car garages in the neighborhood..I should have measured it before I bought.  Oh well, something to improve upon w/ the next house. 

    I am in the same boat, another 4 foot wider and 4 foot longer would be wonderful. 

    30 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Yeah, at least 3 car next time. 

    3 for my work shop, two for daily drivers, and 2 slots for collector cars. And then an outbuilding for bikes and lawn equipment. That would be ideal...right now I have a standard two car garage...so full of tools and projects that no car has parked inside of it for ten years. 

    Edited by A Horse With No Name
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    4 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    I am in the same boat, another 4 foot wider and 4 foot longer would be wonderful. 

    The Jeep and Trax both fit, but I have to get the right side of the Jeep up close to the wall and fold up the mirrors on the Trax and get it close to the left wall to be able to get in the Jeep.. 

    IMG-0218.JPG

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    23 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    The Jeep and Trax both fit, but I have to get the right side of the Jeep up close to the wall and fold up the mirrors on the Trax and get it close to the left wall to be able to get in the Jeep.. 

    IMG-0218.JPG

    What year is that house?

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    Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

    My guess would be about 1968 or so.

    Good guess..1967 split level...everything in the subdivision seems to be from then...some have wider garages than others. 

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    2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Good guess..1967 split level...everything in the subdivision seems to be from then...some have wider garages than others. 

    Given how big the cars were in the 1960s, one wonders what the builders were thinking with the garage design. There's no way an 88 sedan would have fit in there and no way an 88 coupe could have gotten its doors open. 

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    58 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Given how big the cars were in the 1960s, one wonders what the builders were thinking with the garage design. There's no way an 88 sedan would have fit in there and no way an 88 coupe could have gotten its doors open. 

    I know..it makes no sense...the garage door is narrower than the driveway.  1967 I was thinking Ford Country Squire & Fairlane..or Impala wagon and Chevelle..wouldn't fit.   It seems like it was built more for two Beetles or a Nova and a Camaro. 

    The odd thing is on the same street there are houses that appear to be the same model, but with a wider garage...down the street there is a house w/ a late model Explorer and Fusion in the garage, and when they have the door up it's clear they have a lot more walk-around room than I do..

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    57 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Given how big the cars were in the 1960s, one wonders what the builders were thinking with the garage design. There's no way an 88 sedan would have fit in there and no way an 88 coupe could have gotten its doors open. 

    A lot of families back then only had one car. personally...like the mid sized cutty from 67. 

    Image result for 67 Olds Cutlass
    yycutlass67.jpg
    Image result for 67 Olds Cutlass
    Image result for 67 Olds Cutlass
    Image result for 67 Olds Cutlass

    That is what needs to be in that garage.

    Image result for 67 Mustang fastback

    Garage mate...

    Image result for 67 Mustang fastback
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    9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    A lot of families back then only had one car. personally...like the mid sized cutty from 67. 

     
     

    It's funny...I was thinking about the summer of 1967...was still 3 years before I was born.  My sister was 10, my brother was 17...my folks moved back to Ohio after 3 years in Saipan and Guam.  They bought a house in North Baltimore, Ohio (near Findlay),  my Dad bought himself a new '67 Cougar--silver green w/ 289, 3spd manual, bought my Mom a used '65 Mustang coupe (289 4bbl 'high-po' w/ 4spd, black on black, and bought my brother a used '66 Mustang GT convertible ( 289 4bbl 'high po' w/ 4spd, dark green w/ black interior and top).   He took it off to Ohio State that fall, totaled it a couple years later.  My Mom drove the '65 until '69 then got the white '69 Mustang 351...   different world then. 

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    Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

    Were those K code Hipo cars?

    Yep...have seen old photos of them, and I remember seeing the convertible in the 70s..it sat in the barn for a decade with the front smashed in...he eventually sold it.  

    emf3_a.jpg

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    8 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Hopefully someone rebuilt it. That is almost the holy grail to me...66...4 speed...dark green. black top and interior...K code....

    Yeah...it sold around 1980-81, before the whole boom in Mustang reproduction parts..he had hit a power pole on High Street in Columbus head on pretty hard..I remember the front inner fenders were buckled and the whole front was pushed upward.  I remember it was a guy from the Pittsburgh area that bought it...always wondered if it was restored.    When my Mom got the '69, he got the '65 coupe, which got totaled a year or so later in Columbus also--got hit from behind.    He then drove a rusty '58 Biscayne his final year at Ohio State...

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    4 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    The Jeep and Trax both fit, but I have to get the right side of the Jeep up close to the wall and fold up the mirrors on the Trax and get it close to the left wall to be able to get in the Jeep.. 

    IMG-0218.JPG

    Got a little room to the left side of the house to remodel out to widen that garage with some spare space for a work bench. ;) 

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    5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    My driveway slopes down and then there is a flat area to park the cars.  Beyond that is a further hill covered in a forest of bamboo.  Coming home last night the bottom of the driveway was iced over and I was going too fast. Almost ended up with the Buick in the Bamboo.

    The Buick Bamboo...

    The perfect name for a Chinese market only Buick cute ute crossover! 

    • Haha 2
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    • The grand plan was a separate new service to the house of 200 amps so that the garage would have plenty of power for charging multiple EVs and I would have a separate bill each cycle for knowing what I was spending for EV driving. Waking up in the morning to a full charge of power and never having to stop at a gas station due to having a Level 2, 240-volt home charger is a luxury everyone should have allowing you to smile as you drive by a gas station with folks outside dealing with their fueling. The ultimate perk of EV ownership.  I started with reaching out to my local utility and inquiring of the process for a new service. My local utility was more than accommodating in helping me out with the details. As an engineer that loves to learn, this process was very eye opening into the costs, lack of efficiencies by agencies and electrical contractors with a surprising ending to my eventual solution. Let's start off by making one thing clear, every state has their own regulations in regard to electrical. While the USA follows the national electrical code as a starting point, each state, county and city then adds their own additions or subtractions to the code. Always make sure to follow your local code no matter if you hire a company, independent contractor or are a DIY (Do it Yourself) type of person. Full information on the national electrical code can be found here:  The National Electrical Code (NEC) - Electrical Safety Foundation (esfi.org) Another thing to point out is every state has their own way of dealing with electrical supply and competition. As such, some states allow their end users to pick among competitive electrical suppliers even to the point of choosing to use Green Energy (Solar, Wind, and or Hydro) or not (Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear). Other states tend to regulate this down to the city and or county within a state. Washington state is a regulated power supply state so that depending on the county you live in; you deal with your county or the state power supplier. Washington state has one of the greenest electrical grides in the country. It produces 7,816 MWh of electricity and it breaks down as follows: Figures as of May 16th, 2024 Petroleum-Fired - 0% Natural Gas - 21.3% Coal-Fired - 3.9% Nuclear 10.3% Renewables - 64.1% (Hydro, Wind, Solar & Ocean) Fueling Stations in Washington State: Motor Gasoline - 1,846 Stations Propane - 64 Stations EV Charging - 2,153 stations E85 - 5 stations Biodiesel, CNG, & Other Alternatives - 8 stations If you wish to check out your own state information you can do so here by clicking on your state:  U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis Starting off on my project I had decided to go ahead with a ChargePoint+ Home Flex Hardwired solution. Yes, there are a wide variety of good home chargers that run from $250 to $2000 dollars such as the Porsche home charger. Home Flex Hardwired Level 2 EV Charger (chargepoint.com) The choice of this charger was based on the following: Some of the best reviews out there by thousands of people Hardwired allowed me the best power supply available to the EV building in future protection as newer EV tech comes online. ChargePoint sells both CCS and NACS supply cords, making upgrades from my current EV with CCS to a future EV with NACS easy as a self-Upgrade to the charger. ChargePoint app allows for use both at their fast-charging network and to track my own use and cost. You can find a large diverse choice of L1 and L2 chargers on Amazon or from other sources. Many utilities will have rebates if you purchase through your local utility or in the case of my own system, I had to file a rebate form as my charger was on the approved list, but not available from my utility. ChargePoint+ also points out that till 2032 you might be able to qualify for a $1,000 rebate from the federal government. Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Incentives | ChargePoint Now that I have covered some of the basics about electrical and power source, lets dive into my journey for a Level 2 Home Charger. Karl at the Snohomish PUD sent me a form that I had to fill out, this was a "New Service Residential Request" form. Here I had to fill out the normal details such as my house address, current status of the electrical to the home, type of new service being requested, pictures of where the service would need to be connected to the house and where I wanted the service panel to be, etc. This form had an area for requested measurements from the house to the utility pole, gross measurements of where the wiring would need to go so that the service could be sized up accordingly. The last part was the direction from my PUD on checking with the city for any additional requirements. For those wanting to see what the new service request form looks like I supply it here: 1097R_NSQres.pdf City requirements were that any electrical changes to the existing structure that comprised more than 10% cost of the home improvement value as assessed by the county required that the electrical lines from the utility pole to the house be installed underground rather than overhead. Luckily for me, my estimated costs would be under this so I was not looking to have to figure this into the cost of adding the service or so I thought. Karl at SNOPUD said he would do the assessment and have out to me the updated info shortly. In the meantime, I reached out to a couple of recommended electrical companies from the SNOPUD website and a few independent electricians to get estimates on the work to be done. Specifically, I wanted two quotes, first is the all-new service added to the house with dedicated panel feeding the garage. Second was updating the existing panel to support a charger in the garage using my existing service. Here I was expecting a $5 to $6 thousand dollar install connection for the first service and based on the auto industry estimate of around $1,500 to $2,000 for the second. Boy was I off by a bunch. All the estimates from both the electrical companies I contacted, and the independent contractors had the new service install between $10 to $12 thousand dollars and the existing services was between $4,700 to $6,200. This also did not include the connection to the PUD. Here I was informed from Karl at SNOPUD that the service could be done but would require a new transformer to our cul-d-sac to support the added amperage pull. As such, this was more than just a wire connection but an outage to the cul-d-sac ending in an almost $15,000 charge. Who knew that adding a service where you pay them for the flow of electricity would have such a huge cost and impact on my project. This put the cost of a new service between $25,000 to $27,000 dollars. So much for the Auto Industry estimates of $1,500 to $2,000 dollars and it also did not include the required $125.00 electrical permit I would have to get from the city and inspection. I did keep in mind that the price of electrical work varies based on the cost of labor where one lives, power of the charger, distance from the charger to the electrical panel along with the job complexity. What about DIY (Do it Yourself), could I do this job myself and what would the cost be? First, I knew from all the quotes that I was greatly under my 200-amp service pull as I have Gas stove, Dryer, Water heater and Furnace. As such, the 240V 30-to-50-amp circuits that are in my panel are not being used at all. One of the independent electricians had stated that the cheapest way would be to pull an existing circuit breaker and run the wire into the panel with the new Circuit breaker, but most electricians did not like leaving existing wires from outlets in the panel even if they were sealed off, they just did not like doing this, so everyone had quoted based on adding a secondary panel. With this information, I researched from the ChargePoint+ website on installing the hardwired charger I had purchased from them. ChargePoint+ has installation videos and covers all the information on installation as well as becoming a certified installation expert. ChargePoint Home Resources | ChargePoint ChargePoint Home Flex (CPH50) Hardwired Installation Video | ChargePoint Become a Certified ChargePoint Installer | ChargePoint From the website above I gathered the following information on the materials that I would need. Conduit large enough to hold the wiring Brackets to attach the conduit and screws 90-degree wire access conduit Associated pipe nipple for connection into the panel Insulated bushing Appropriate washer and locknut for connection to the panel 6 AWG wiring Black, Red and Green wires per code ChargePoint+ clearly states to use 6AWG for their Level 2 Charger installation. 6 AWG wire stripper 70amp circuit breaker Some states require these to be Arc or GFCI for indoor or outdoor, national code for outdoor installation is a GFCI breaker upstream from the outdoor installation. Check local regulations for proper type required. Make sure to get the proper type of circuit breaker for your panel, I had D block circuits. Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters vs. Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters - Bob Vila Torque Screwdriver set Most do not know that depending on the size of the circuit breaker, when you connect the wiring to the breaker, the screws must be torqued to a certain range. The 70amp circuits per the side of the breaker states 45 in. lbs. Paintable caulking to seal both access points into the house for the charger. With having my list of materials, I choose to first compare prices online from Home Depot and Lowe's. What I found was that Home Depot was much higher in the cost of the wiring, but cheaper in conduit, circuit breakers and accessories. Lucky, I have both home improvement stores within a 2-mile radius of my house. What I also noticed was that neither home improvement store had the required tools I would need, so clearly, I would have to stop off at my local Harbor Freight tool store. Harbor Freight Tools | Quality Tools, Lowest Prices With the knowledge of what I needed and a shopping list, I headed out and accomplished the following: Electrical Permit from my city.  Wiring from Lowe's - Lowe’s Home Improvement (lowes.com) Conduit, circuit breaker and accessories from Home Depot - The Home Depot Tools from Harbor Freight tools company - Harbor Freight Tools | Quality Tools, Lowest Prices Opening up the electrical panel as you can see here, I have my household 200amp circuit at the top. This will kill power to everything in the house, below this was the kitchen and laundry room 240V circuit and then on down throughout the rest of the house to the garage with various circuits. At this point, I knew that I would be turning off the 200amp circuit to work on this panel and protect the rest of the house. Note to point out is that when you turn off this 200amp circuit, the power is not flowing to the rest of the panel, but you still have the power coming from the street to this panel and so there is live electricity in that 200amp circuit. One must always be cautious when working with electrical. One safety thing to do, remove ALL jewelry, watches, phones, etc. Have nothing on you that is electrical or any kind of metal and that includes a wedding ring. All these are places that can cause an electrical jump / short that can cause you harm. As one that grew up working on auto's and having great respect for the electrical system of auto's, homes, datacenters, etc. there are some things that I do not have a problem doing. In this case I kept the power to the house on while I pulled the panel cover off. A proper panel should have all the wires in 90 degrees to the circuit breakers and to the grounding / neutral bars that are silver in this case. Here I have not had any manipulation of the box done with patchwork electrical hacks. It is always best to learn the details or hire the proper person to do your electrical work. Being that I am comfortable with pulling out the circuit breaker that is turned off, I choose to pull and replace the 240V 30-amp laundry room circuit. Here in this picture, you can see it removed and a better view of the grounding / neutral bar of the electrical panel. At this point, I wanted to pull out the punch of where I was going to run the new electrical lines into the panel. Once I pulled out the punch, I drilled a small starter hole from the inside to the outside so I could line up properly the larger drill bit for the incoming conduit. Upon drilling, I attached the pipe nipple extension to the 90-degree wire access conduit, and I inserted it through the outside wall. Here I put on the washer, lock nut and insulated bushing as you can see here. Now the next step was to install the conduit, some love their hard conduit and gluing it together as it comes in 10ft lengths, and you then have to either use a special heater tool to bend the hard conduit or buy the proper pieces that are curved. I choose to go with liquid proof flexible commercial conduit. The benefit here is that while this is a bit more expensive, the flexibility of the line makes it so much easier to install. One thing no matter what type of conduit you choose to use is that one has to run the electrical lines through the conduit. Hard conduit can be with tight bends very challenging to run the electrical lines unless you have a special tool that allows you to snake through the conduit, attach the electrical lines and then it uses an electrical motor to pull it. I choose to run my flexible conduit out in a straight line, and I had pushed through my three 6awg lines through it so that I had the wire already in the conduit. Now this does make the conduit much heavier to install, but I found it faster and easier to do it this way. You will also notice that I have a Black, White and Green wire rather than the code dictating a Black, Red and Green wire. Both Lowe's and Home Depot were out at the time of purchase the red 6awg wire. So, I did what is allowed and that is on the ends of the wire at both ends, I wrapped them with red electrical tape. I started with connecting the liquid tight end connector to the flexible conduit and attaching it to the 90 degree wire access to the panel. I pushed the wires through to the inside and reattached the liquid tight cover and then started using the brackets to attach the conduit to the house. Two things to consider, one is the over all look of the installation, sometimes the cheapest approach is not the best especially when it comes to ones significant other, wife, partner, etc., not everyone likes to see conduit. I choose to do my best to minimize the visibility of the conduit and once I paint it to match the house it will truly not show up as the wife never noticed it when she came home till after I showed here. Upon installation of the conduit with the 6 AWG wires, it was time to mount the home charger in my designated place. Here you need to make sure it is level, supported by the wall which can sometimes require additional bracing. Here you see my ChargePoint+ unit being installed on the wall. With the charger installed onto the wall, I finished up the connection of the conduit / wires into the unit. Connected the electrical supply side and the charging cable side and reinstalled the cover. With the installation of the charger unit and wiring done, it was time to focus on the circuit breaker installation side. Here I had an LED head light as I finally turned off the 200-amp circuit breaker to the house. I attached the red and black wires to the circuit breaker, installed the ground wire and then installed the circuit breaker into the panel. I also at this time wrapped each wire from the laundry outlet in proper electrical tap and a wire twist to add additional protection and secured them out of the way in the panel corner. I also at this time used my torque screwdriver to ensure proper torque on the wires. With the installation completed at the panel side, I turned back on the 200-amp circuit enabling the house to have power and was time to go enable the charger unit. Here ChargePoint+ has an outstanding cellphone app to enable you to finish up the setup of the charger. I was able to connect to the unit via WiFi and set the unit to 70 amp circuit hardwired. I also then connected it to my house WiFi for internet access. This allowed me to do a update on the unit for software. Here ChargePoint has on the left side of the unit indicators for WiFi connection. Green is good and as you can see in the picture above, I have WiFi connection and the alert is showing green so no issues with the charger. Upon using the regular ChargePoint software app on my smartphone I was able to complete setting up an account and final configuration of my charger as a home charger unit. The unit is green when not in use but ready to be used. During Charging the unit is a pulsing blue. At this point, I had a functional Level 2 240V 50amp hardwired home EV charger with CCS connector. What did this cost me, simple a total of $1,032.23 Level 2 ChargePoint+ Home Flex hardwired charger: $549.99 plus $54.99 sales tax before $200.00 rebate. Total Cost of Materials: $391.77 which was from Home Depot & Lowe's. Tools bought for the job: $110.48 which comprised of a 6 AWG wire striper and a Torque Screwdriver set from Harbor Freight. Electrical Permit: $125 from the city. Best part of this is the cheap charging we get at home at .10 cents per kW. The ChargePoint app allows me to track and monitor in real time our costs and amount used, so it will make it easy to subtract it from the electrical bill to see the house use versus the EV. The app shows that I am constantly at the 11kW controller capabilities of home charging from Kia. This brings me back to why I titled this the Good, Bad and the Ugly. New Service request is the ugly as the costs of the new service from my power supplier has costs that have never been talked about before to me and I still have to pay for the electrical use which makes this the ugly when you are looking at a five figure cost. The bad is clearly adding the new service panel and the associated costs to an electrical company to do the work, pretty much double what the auto industry has stated having a Level 2 home charger installed would actually cost. Good is for those of you who are willing to learn and do the work, a DIY install is in my humble opinion a very cheap way to go even though it did take a chunk of my time, I have no regrets about learning the process to install and dealing with my city on installation. End result is a quality home charger that will serve me well for many years. Please post any questions or comments, happy to respond on this personal journey into home charging of my EV. View full article
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    • This road test of the Citroen C5 was the result of a serious upgrade in a rental at a Sicilian airport.   I’ve been assigned a smaller Citroen C3 at this very airport before – when the AirBump feature was novel and unusual - and remarked on its excellent ride and easy handling. The C5 is quite a few steps up.  Mostly, it’s all good.  This is a heavier vehicle and, along with that, the ride is like that of a bank fault.  It’s smooth, quiet, and isolated.  In some ways, it is perhaps too isolated.  By this, I mean that road feel is a little compromised owing to its very soft ride, and there is too much assist in the steering.  I noticed this upon taking out of the rental agency’s lot and through its narrow alleyways. It reminded me of an American boulevardier more so than the European SUV that it is.  It firms up some on the open road.  It’s at slow speeds that it feels way more "electric" – the way electric felt when there was the palpable adjustment we all had to make from hydraulic steering. This C5 had a diesel engine, but it was almost hard to tell that.  It is a turbo charged 4-cylinder engine.  The mileage was excellent.  It returned about 43 mpg in a combination of driving – mostly highway driving but with some small town and arduous mountain two lane road driving.  The transmission is a geared automatic unit and has 8 gears.  The shifts are extremely soft, which I feel is mostly a good thing, and suited to the C5.  The only time it’s clear that it’s geared is when pushing down the pedal – just because - or to pass. The C5 is powerful enough and certainly has the torque to sustain grades and demanding conditions.  However, passing seems to be a variable situation.  It almost seems to depend on the speed and the grade.  In most situations, it does so fairly easily.  High speed passes require some strategizing, and, in a few rare cases, it seemed better to avoid them.  In maintaining high speeds on the autostrada, it does so effortlessly and stably.  You might not have an idea how fast you’re going (114 km = 70 mph, and, on a few occasions, there were some 120 kms and 130 kms where the “bank vault” feeling didn’t let on that this was the actual speed). The workmanship is quite good.  The seats had centralized cloth surfaces with bolsters and side construction of either leather or leatherette.  There is stitching that is attractive and taut.  The C5 is ideal and comfortable for long hauls.  Front seat comfort and leg room is more than adequate, and rear seat leg room is acceptable.  Rear storage space is capacious, and this is without folding forward the rear seats.  The small lift-up area for the tire well provides for some additional storage and symmetrical small cubbies on the sides of the rear storage area can come in handy. Except for the diagonal edge on the infotainment center screen (a pet peeve), I really liked the volumes of the dashboard. Everything was nicely crafted.  Linear gauges for fuel and temperature seem to be the thing these days and, although nice, it would be easier if they indicated critical zones in orange and/or red.  The audio quality appeared to be good.  Also, setting up Bluetooth and keeping Android Auto going seemed easy. The console, which opens lengthwise in the middle, is both unusual and large.  The air conditioning works quickly.  In concert with liking the volumes of the dashboard, the number and placement of vents worked well to distribute the cool air.  Ahead of the console are two ergonomically placed cupholders and all the switches for key operating functions ahead of them reflect quality workmanship and are easy to operate. 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For a person with a little extra money and who needs the space, a supple ride, and its “thickness” all the way around, the Citroen C5 is a good choice.  On a few occasions, its vagueness annoyed me, but that wasn’t too often.  It was challenging to operate on a few narrower Sicilian streets and alleys, but that would apply to narrow streets and parking lots anywhere.  For some, this C5 could check most, if not all, of the boxes. - - - - - PHOTOS FORTHCOMING
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