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    William Maley

    NADA's CEO is Concerned About Consumers Being Priced Out

      Even NADA's CEO is wondering where are the affordable vehicles

    Ask Peter Welch, the CEO of the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA) what worries him the most, he'll admit that it is average consumers getting priced out of new cars.

    He admitted this yesterday at the Automotive News World Congress in Detroit. Welch said that the latest figures he has seen - through October of last year - reveal the average retail price of a new car climbing to a new high of $35,366. The average monthly payment is hovering at $538, and interest rates have climbed to an average of 5.76 percent (new) and 9 percent (used). Longer loan terms are becoming common, with the average length standing at 64.3 months.

    "You know, people buying $55,000 pickup trucks with $1,000-a-month payments — I've never seen it. A lot of people don't think that's sustainable," said Welch.

    "That is going to put a giant dent in the SAARs and it almost makes me wonder if at some point we're going to see another Henry Ford," offering new and more affordable vehicles.

    Aside from more people buying more expensive trucks and utility vehicles, Welch said other reasons for the increases in prices come down to new fuel economy standards and safety equipment. He sees new car prices rising towards $40,000 with $800 monthly payments.

    On a slightly positive note, NADA predicts that 16.8 million light vehicles will be sold in 2019. While down from 17.3 million in 2018, Welch notes there are some positive economic indicators "such as high employment rates, a solid GDP and a healthy economy overall."

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required) 



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    So true, Auto companies have got to find a way to get basic starter auto's out for people in college and right out of college, otherwise we are truly headed to a cast system.

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    14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    So true, Auto companies have got to find a way to get basic starter auto's out for people in college and right out of college, otherwise we are truly headed to a cast system.

    Absolutely.

    Not everybody has a family income of 100k. It isn't uncommon for younger people to start making 30k out of college with monster loans.

    24 minutes ago, William Maley said:

    The average monthly payment is hovering at $538

    Seriously? This is average? 😂

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    24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Absolutely.

    Not everybody has a family income of 100k. It isn't uncommon for younger people to start making 30k out of college with monster loans.

    Seriously? This is average? 😂

    Yeah...I don't know how people manage big car payments...especially with big mortgages. 

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    46 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Yeah...I don't know how people manage big car payments...especially with big mortgages. 

    Totally agree, I saved up for 3yrs to buy my Escalade and still financed 1/3 of the price. Mortgage, car loans, student loans, regular credit cards, home costs, maintenance, costs have gotten out of control in comparison to income.

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    I remember a decade ago, when the politicians and the greenie folk were scolding the Detroit Big3 CEOs why do they keep on producing gas guzzling SUVs and the Detroit Big3 CEOs defended themselves by saying that that is what the consumers want.

    The politicians and the greenie folk all said bullshyte on that and forced FoMoCo, GM and Chryco. to produce smaller more economical cars...

    This is how Obamas new mileage standards came to be...

    THIS is how we got small displacement 4 bangers with turbos in our cars.

    THIS is how FoMoCo. got the name ecoboost from...

    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/business/19emissions.html

     

     

    Quote

     

    One ranking industry official said that the administration wanted to get the new mileage rules in place before General Motors made a decision on a bankruptcy filing, which could happen by the end of this month. The new rules also provide some certainty for Chrysler, which is already under bankruptcy protection, so that it can plan its future models.

    To meet the new federal standards, auto companies will have to drastically change their product lineups in a relatively short time.

    The companies have declined so far to comment on the costs involved in meeting a fleet standard of 35 miles a gallon. For starters, the automakers will probably have to sharply reduce the number of low-mileage models, like pickup trucks and large sedans.

    The president’s decision will also accelerate the development of smaller cars and engines already under way.

     

     

    As you coud see, a decade later and the consumers NEVER gave two shytes about what greenies and politicians cared for...

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    I am not a fan of the new CAFE standards put in several years ago.

    The real issue is keeping up with the Joneses when it comes to everything, not just cars.  I cannot blame the president of NADA for lamenting high new car prices.  He should blame the automakers for the start of leasing cars 35 years ago in the first place.  Without car leases, the race towards higher-priced vehicles slows down.  There are also too many 60-72 month car notes out there too.  I thought that Hyundai/KIA would actually force prices down.  Instead they joined all others in their car pricing too, with slightly lower pricing.  Also, cars are not falling apart like they used to 30-45 years back, so new car replacements are less likely.  If it wasn't for used car pricing, car sales may end up being half of what they are. 

    Where is the $10,000 small crossover?  Where is the $8000 small sedan and/or hatchback?

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    1 hour ago, frogger said:

    There definitely won't be any big car payment for me until the mortgage debt is under 500k lol.

     

    Mine is under 100k and I still don't want big payments. I enjoy tools, eating out, good wine, travel, good books, live hockey...and a bunch of other things.

    Even if I had Mitt Romney level money I can't see going beyond the thirties for a personal car purchase...

    Okay...maybe a CTS V or a Shelby Mustang...but only if I can pay cash for it new.

    And even then clean Shelbys and V cars are available used in the thirties all day long.

    14 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    I am not a fan of the new CAFE standards put in several years ago.

    The real issue is keeping up with the Joneses when it comes to everything, not just cars.  I cannot blame the president of NADA for lamenting high new car prices.  He should blame the automakers for the start of leasing cars 35 years ago in the first place.  Without car leases, the race towards higher-priced vehicles slows down.  There are also too many 60-72 month car notes out there too.  I thought that Hyundai/KIA would actually force prices down.  Instead they joined all others in their car pricing too, with slightly lower pricing.  Also, cars are not falling apart like they used to 30-45 years back, so new car replacements are less likely.  If it wasn't for used car pricing, car sales may end up being half of what they are. 

    Where is the $10,000 small crossover?  Where is the $8000 small sedan and/or hatchback?

    The Ford Ecosport is as close to a ten grand crossover as you will find. Chevy used to build a very decent bare bones small suv.

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    Find an (online) clean Chevette and marvel at the interior. It had nothing inside, and you sweated. It was 10,000 miles away from a Cadillac/mercedes.

    Now a kia forte HAS to have a leather-wrapped steering wheel, touch screeen, full power features/A/C, active safety warning features, 17" alloy rims, etc etc etc. It even looks like a low end mercedes. How they hell could it possibly be $8000??

    Then we have the supposed wave of electrics coming, just about ALL of them priced 25% higher than their gas counterparts. Heading right toward $40K average price? Yep, I think so; electrics are supercharging that price push.

    If a brand was to offer a quirky, futuristic, Minimalist Kar with a base sound system, A/C, crank windows/manual seats, no heated seats/wheel, no screen, peppy performance, upper class MPG- it has a chance but at those levels it starts to simply compete with used stuff, better equipped. So it hopes to 'win' volume on those who are willing to do without but HAVE to have a brand new car. How many consumers is that pool comprised of?

    I blame the massive upgrading of entry level cars in features and design; it's eroded the degree of difference vs. upper crust cars, and upended the pricing range. Ultimately, a lot more model lines are going to fall- as amenities greatly overlap and size differences are minimal and everyone has 3 or 5 CUVs- the industry sags with oversaturation.

    I've advocated for this before and I still think it has major merits. Less model lines, more variants within the model line. Mainstream brands STILL have too many model lines- it's not going to last ESP if new EV brands actually start producing.

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    2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

    I am not a fan of the new CAFE standards put in several years ago.

    The real issue is keeping up with the Joneses when it comes to everything, not just cars.  I cannot blame the president of NADA for lamenting high new car prices.  He should blame the automakers for the start of leasing cars 35 years ago in the first place.  Without car leases, the race towards higher-priced vehicles slows down.  There are also too many 60-72 month car notes out there too.  I thought that Hyundai/KIA would actually force prices down.  Instead they joined all others in their car pricing too, with slightly lower pricing.  Also, cars are not falling apart like they used to 30-45 years back, so new car replacements are less likely.  If it wasn't for used car pricing, car sales may end up being half of what they are. 

    Where is the $10,000 small crossover?  Where is the $8000 small sedan and/or hatchback?

    Lets add in the other HORROR of auto sales, dealerships that flip an upside down auto value and roll it into a new auto purchase just increasing the debt making it hard for the person to ever pay off the auto.

    @balthazar Gov requirement for all the nanny devices makes having a fully base auto with only say auto trans but manual windows, manual door locks, manual everything an impossible choice as many younger people feel entitled to fully loaded luxury auto's.

    Example is the neighbor that took out a line of credit to buy their son a BMW as he was a marketing graduate and needed to arrive at interviews in a proper auto representing his capabilities according to them.

    STUPID, Job interviews know nothing of what you drive and careless about it as it does not affect if you can do the job.

    I never did that for my kids and see no reason to do it at all. If you want to help with a down payment as a graduation gift, fine your money, but I see no reason for parents to buy their kids luxury auto's and go in debt. :nono:

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    It’s a push toward shared and public transportation, that’s why. About control. People are dumb enough that they would but piles of chit if it was the thing to buy.....

    Having two bare bones Cavaliers over the last ten years make you realize what you can do without. I think they only real add on the cars have seem is a tom Tom GPS.....Having my Nox is like a whole new world compared to the cavs and Cobalt .

    I’d rather not have all my money wrapped up in car and house payments....

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    I can't believe the average new car payment is $538/mth. Here at Rancho Balthy, the highest monthly we've had over... 8 different vehicle loans is $249.  Yet I build & price different new trucks and cringe at the payment which comes in between that low-mid $500 to low $600 range.

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    14 hours ago, William Maley said:

    Welch notes there are some positive economic indicators "such as high employment rates, a solid GDP and a healthy economy overall."

    Even with this reality, losing the cellar is not a good move.  GM fullsize truck prices are exorbitant in nature, for example.  They are trying to extort their loyal customers into paying for an iffy "future".  Homie don't play dat.

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    Prices are getting crazy..anything under $30-35k seems to be fwd/transverse 4cyl appliances, nothing interesting.---just despair gray interior generics.

    Since I drove my last new vehicle 17 years, I'll probably be in my current for a while..but not that long..not going to keep it past 100k miles.

     I've been happy w/ my CPO experience, I can see doing that again... 

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    10 hours ago, daves87rs said:

    It’s a push toward shared and public transportation, that’s why. About control. People are dumb enough that they would but piles of chit if it was the thing to buy.....

     

    But people aren't taking advantage of public transportation. Here are some quotes from a recent article from The Economist that someone posted about a week ago.

    Quote

    The American Public Transportation Association’s figures show that the number of journeys in the country as a whole has fallen in each of the past three years. In 2016-17 every kind of mass public transport became less busy: buses, subways, commuter trains and trams. New Yorkers took 2.8% fewer weekday trips on public transport and 4.2% fewer weekend trips in the 12 months to April 2018, compared with the previous year. In Chicago and Washington, DC, the decline in public-transport trips has been even steeper.

    Quote

    One explanation, which is convincing in some cities, is that public transport has deteriorated. Look at Madrid, says Richard Anderson, a transport analyst at Imperial College London. Public-transport trips fell there beginning in 2008, as you would expect in a recession-hit country where unemployment was rising. In response to the downturn, the city cut services. People noticed, and stayed away. Between 2007 and 2013 the Madrid Metro lost 19% of its customers. Service levels, perceptions and demand have all improved since then, but the Metro remains quieter than it used to be before the financial crisis.

    Quote

    Perhaps public transport has come to seem relatively dismal because people have acquired better options. Uber, Lyft and other “ride-hailing” car services are probably luring people away from trains and buses, just as they are demolishing the taxi trade. In San Francisco public transport accounts for 16% of all weekday trips, ride-hailing for 9%. People mostly seem to use Uber and Lyft to get to places well-served by mass transport (see map). One study of the city by five Californian academics asked ride-hailing customers how they would have made their most recent trip if the service did not exist. One-third replied that they would have taken public transport. In a study of Boston, 42% said the same thing.

     

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    52 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Prices are getting crazy..anything under $30-35k seems to be fwd/transverse 4cyl appliances, nothing interesting.---just despair gray interior generics.

    Since I drove my last new vehicle 17 years, I'll probably be in my current for a while..but not that long..not going to keep it past 100k miles.

     I've been happy w/ my CPO experience, I can see doing that again... 

    CPO seems worthwhile to me also, it is how I bought the bug. Thinking maybe CPO Cherokee. They are priced nicely and are not bland FWD appliances.

    image.png

    tumblr_pgmmorcubg1uh4bok_1280.jpg

    tumblr_pda42tdoL71v4pyu0o1_1280.jpg

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    16 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    I do not think its the car manufacturers that are pricing the consumers out of new cars. I think its the consumer itself that does it. 

    The consumers DEMANDED fully equipped cars over the decades and have migrated to higher priced CUVs and SUVs and 100 000 doallr work trucks to outshine their neighbors...

    Even if car manufacturers make and produce "affordable" no frill CUVs, the masses will NOT buy them or lease them.

    America has become a voracious consumer oriented society that just wants to outdo their neighbor...

     Yes, I can understand that...in a daily driver, I want the most creature comforts I can get...I couldn't imagine driving a depressing 4cyl FWD econobox w/ a despair gray interior...

     

    5 minutes ago, William Maley said:

     

    6 minutes ago, William Maley said:

    But people aren't taking advantage of public transportation. Here are some quotes from a recent article from The Economist that someone posted about a week ago.

      

      QUOTE

    Perhaps public transport has come to seem relatively dismal because people have acquired better options. Uber, Lyft and other “ride-hailing” car services are probably luring people away from trains and buses, just as they are demolishing the taxi trade. In San Francisco public transport accounts for 16% of all weekday trips, ride-hailing for 9%. People mostly seem to use Uber and Lyft to get to places well-served by mass transport (see map). One study of the city by five Californian academics asked ride-hailing customers how they would have made their most recent trip if the service did not exist. One-third replied that they would have taken public transport. In a study of Boston, 42% said the same thing.

    Public transit isn't really a realistic option here in the suburbs..there are bus lines that run into downtown Cleveland and a light rail, but nothing practical for me.  If I were working downtown or in another suburb, I'd be commuting by SUV as I've done most of my career in other cities.    I do like Uber, I use it occasionally if I don't want to deal w/ parking in some areas or want to have a few drinks at dinner.  Very convenient. 

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    9 hours ago, balthazar said:

    I can't believe the average new car payment is $538/mth. Here at Rancho Balthy, the highest monthly we've had over... 8 different vehicle loans is $249.  Yet I build & price different new trucks and cringe at the payment which comes in between that low-mid $500 to low $600 range.

    I can't agree more! The most I've had was $279/month for me Escape. As long as it is under $300 I don't mind it and I still feel like I'm in control of the loan and not worried about not having the money to ever pay for it.

    My current Focus is $114/month. 

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    45 minutes ago, William Maley said:

    But people aren't taking advantage of public transportation. Here are some quotes from a recent article from The Economist that someone posted about a week ago.

     

    Could this also be due to more companies embracing work from home rather than office space which is costly. 🤔

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    1 minute ago, dfelt said:

    Could this also be due to more companies embracing work from home rather than office space which is costly. 🤔

    After doing it the last 18 months, I love working from home/working remotely...definitely driving much less than when I was in a cubicle in Scottsdale. 

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    20 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    After doing it the last 18 months, I love working from home/working remotely...definitely driving much less than when I was in a cubicle in Scottsdale. 

    But then you are sitting at home working, looking out your front window and this happens...

     

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    4 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    But then you are sitting at home working, looking out your front window and this happens...

     

    Heh-heh..what I usually see from my cameras are deer strolling through the front and back yards..

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    1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

    Prices are getting crazy..anything under $30-35k seems to be fwd/transverse 4cyl appliances, nothing interesting.---just despair gray interior generics.

    Since I drove my last new vehicle 17 years, I'll probably be in my current for a while..but not that long..not going to keep it past 100k miles.

     I've been happy w/ my CPO experience, I can see doing that again... 

    The only problem with CPO or lightly used cars, is that everyone who is looking to get a nice CPO vehicle depends on all the people you guys criticize for taking hugely expensive loans and leases.  So if everybody will be "smart" consumer than there will be not enough used cars.  Actually, due to the high prices the used car market is already became worse.

    i think the biggest jump in prices happened when active safety became expected and mandated.  It significantly raised the prices of even base vehicles, raised prices of repair and therefore the insurance.   You guys can bitch about "you don't need all that stuff" you are "excellent drivers" etc, etc, but the fact is these devices work and save lives, which is their purpose.  Same as it was with seat belts, better, more expensive car structure, air bags.  All these previous safety features added to the cost of vehicles as well. historically

    Also, I thought this is an auto enthusiast forum, but it seems to me most people here are perfectly fine driving crappy old appliances.   Believe me, I understand living  within you own means, I have family and bills.  However, I think if you are a car enthusiast than sometimes you need to make some different choices than everyday consumer.

    Just my $0.02 :)

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    1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

    Heh-heh..what I usually see from my cameras are deer strolling through the front and back yards..

    Watch long enough and you can watch them bringing Bambi into this world.

    AxhjYji.gif

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    39 minutes ago, ykX said:

    The only problem with CPO or lightly used cars, is that everyone who is looking to get a nice CPO vehicle depends on all the people you guys criticize for taking hugely expensive loans and leases.  So if everybody will be "smart" consumer than there will be not enough used cars.  Actually, due to the high prices the used car market is already became worse.

    i think the biggest jump in prices happened when active safety became expected and mandated.  It significantly raised the prices of even base vehicles, raised prices of repair and therefore the insurance.   You guys can bitch about "you don't need all that stuff" you are "excellent drivers" etc, etc, but the fact is these devices work and save lives, which is their purpose.  Same as it was with seat belts, better, more expensive car structure, air bags.  All these previous safety features added to the cost of vehicles as well. historically

    Also, I thought this is an auto enthusiast forum, but it seems to me most people here are perfectly fine driving crappy old appliances.   Believe me, I understand living  within you own means, I have family and bills.  However, I think if you are a car enthusiast than sometimes you need to make some different choices than everyday consumer.

    Just my $0.02 :)

    Which is why some people here do drive nice auto's. :P 

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    20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    I do not think its the car manufacturers that are pricing the consumers out of new cars. I think its the consumer itself that does it. 

    Why is it that Ford is cutting its sedans in favor of producing and selling CUVs and SUVs? 

    Why is GM almost doing the same?

    Why are Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords selling at a slight lesser rate than once before and why is it that Toyota's and Honda's CUVs outselling their sedan counterparts?

    When was the last time you actually saw or heard a suburban wife talk about how she wants to buy (not lease, because leasing too causes the consumer to  out-price himself out of a new car) a base bare bones  compact car?

    It seems suburbanites all want the most recent, option filled truck or SUV and who cares how much it costs... 

    There was a time when down and out folk used to buy pick-up trucks, no options pick-up trucks,  because these were the cheapest means of transportation anybody could buy...

    The consumers DEMANDED fully equipped cars over the decades and have migrated to higher priced CUVs and SUVs and 100 000 doallr work trucks to outshine their neighbors...

    Even if car manufacturers make and produce "affordable" no frill CUVs, the masses will NOT buy them or lease them.

    America has become a voracious consumer oriented society that just wants to outdo their neighbor...

    Excellent points made here. 

    2 hours ago, ykX said:

    The only problem with CPO or lightly used cars, is that everyone who is looking to get a nice CPO vehicle depends on all the people you guys criticize for taking hugely expensive loans and leases.  So if everybody will be "smart" consumer than there will be not enough used cars.  Actually, due to the high prices the used car market is already became worse.

    i think the biggest jump in prices happened when active safety became expected and mandated.  It significantly raised the prices of even base vehicles, raised prices of repair and therefore the insurance.   You guys can bitch about "you don't need all that stuff" you are "excellent drivers" etc, etc, but the fact is these devices work and save lives, which is their purpose.  Same as it was with seat belts, better, more expensive car structure, air bags.  All these previous safety features added to the cost of vehicles as well. historically

    Also, I thought this is an auto enthusiast forum, but it seems to me most people here are perfectly fine driving crappy old appliances.   Believe me, I understand living  within you own means, I have family and bills.  However, I think if you are a car enthusiast than sometimes you need to make some different choices than everyday consumer.

    Just my $0.02 :)

    If I can get my driveway re-shaped, I would like to own a CPO CT6 Platinum in a few years. 

    Right now, it high-centers at the top of the driveway and I believe (I never got it down the driveway to find out) it would scrape at the bottom. 

    Eff it... I just need to buy a new house with a flat driveway. :P

     

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    5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Excellent points made here. 

    If I can get my driveway re-shaped, I would like to own a CPO CT6 Platinum in a few years. 

    Right now, it high-centers at the top of the driveway and I believe (I never got it down the driveway to find out) it would scrape at the bottom. 

    Eff it... I just need to buy a new house with a flat driveway. :P

     

    Our department head drives a CTS wagon...his driveway is sloped and he lives next to a lake. Driveway was frozen up the other night...Caddy didn't want to stop on downhill sheet of ice...almost went into the lake. 

    You BOTH need a flat driveway. 

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    1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Our department head drives a CTS wagon...his driveway is sloped and he lives next to a lake. Driveway was frozen up the other night...Caddy didn't want to stop on downhill sheet of ice...almost went into the lake. 

    You BOTH need a flat driveway. 

    My driveway slopes down and then there is a flat area to park the cars.  Beyond that is a further hill covered in a forest of bamboo.  Coming home last night the bottom of the driveway was iced over and I was going too fast. Almost ended up with the Buick in the Bamboo.

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    14 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Excellent points made here. 

    If I can get my driveway re-shaped, I would like to own a CPO CT6 Platinum in a few years. 

    Right now, it high-centers at the top of the driveway and I believe (I never got it down the driveway to find out) it would scrape at the bottom. 

    Eff it... I just need to buy a new house with a flat driveway. :P

     

    And a big garage :)

    4 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    My driveway slopes down and then there is a flat area to park the cars.  Beyond that is a further hill covered in a forest of bamboo.  Coming home last night the bottom of the driveway was iced over and I was going too fast. Almost ended up with the Buick in the Bamboo.

    You need WRX or STi with winter tires :)

    Edited by ykX
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    I need a wider garage..it's narrower than other 2 car garages in the neighborhood..I should have measured it before I bought.  Oh well, something to improve upon w/ the next house. 

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    29 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    I need a wider garage..it's narrower than other 2 car garages in the neighborhood..I should have measured it before I bought.  Oh well, something to improve upon w/ the next house. 

    I am in the same boat, another 4 foot wider and 4 foot longer would be wonderful. 

    30 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Yeah, at least 3 car next time. 

    3 for my work shop, two for daily drivers, and 2 slots for collector cars. And then an outbuilding for bikes and lawn equipment. That would be ideal...right now I have a standard two car garage...so full of tools and projects that no car has parked inside of it for ten years. 

    Edited by A Horse With No Name

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    4 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    I am in the same boat, another 4 foot wider and 4 foot longer would be wonderful. 

    The Jeep and Trax both fit, but I have to get the right side of the Jeep up close to the wall and fold up the mirrors on the Trax and get it close to the left wall to be able to get in the Jeep.. 

    IMG-0218.JPG

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    23 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    The Jeep and Trax both fit, but I have to get the right side of the Jeep up close to the wall and fold up the mirrors on the Trax and get it close to the left wall to be able to get in the Jeep.. 

    IMG-0218.JPG

    What year is that house?

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    Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

    My guess would be about 1968 or so.

    Good guess..1967 split level...everything in the subdivision seems to be from then...some have wider garages than others. 

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    2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Good guess..1967 split level...everything in the subdivision seems to be from then...some have wider garages than others. 

    Given how big the cars were in the 1960s, one wonders what the builders were thinking with the garage design. There's no way an 88 sedan would have fit in there and no way an 88 coupe could have gotten its doors open. 

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    58 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Given how big the cars were in the 1960s, one wonders what the builders were thinking with the garage design. There's no way an 88 sedan would have fit in there and no way an 88 coupe could have gotten its doors open. 

    I know..it makes no sense...the garage door is narrower than the driveway.  1967 I was thinking Ford Country Squire & Fairlane..or Impala wagon and Chevelle..wouldn't fit.   It seems like it was built more for two Beetles or a Nova and a Camaro. 

    The odd thing is on the same street there are houses that appear to be the same model, but with a wider garage...down the street there is a house w/ a late model Explorer and Fusion in the garage, and when they have the door up it's clear they have a lot more walk-around room than I do..

    Edited by Robert Hall

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    57 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Given how big the cars were in the 1960s, one wonders what the builders were thinking with the garage design. There's no way an 88 sedan would have fit in there and no way an 88 coupe could have gotten its doors open. 

    A lot of families back then only had one car. personally...like the mid sized cutty from 67. 

    Image result for 67 Olds Cutlass
    yycutlass67.jpg
    Image result for 67 Olds Cutlass
    Image result for 67 Olds Cutlass
    Image result for 67 Olds Cutlass

    That is what needs to be in that garage.

    Image result for 67 Mustang fastback

    Garage mate...

    Image result for 67 Mustang fastback
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    9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    A lot of families back then only had one car. personally...like the mid sized cutty from 67. 

     
     

    It's funny...I was thinking about the summer of 1967...was still 3 years before I was born.  My sister was 10, my brother was 17...my folks moved back to Ohio after 3 years in Saipan and Guam.  They bought a house in North Baltimore, Ohio (near Findlay),  my Dad bought himself a new '67 Cougar--silver green w/ 289, 3spd manual, bought my Mom a used '65 Mustang coupe (289 4bbl 'high-po' w/ 4spd, black on black, and bought my brother a used '66 Mustang GT convertible ( 289 4bbl 'high po' w/ 4spd, dark green w/ black interior and top).   He took it off to Ohio State that fall, totaled it a couple years later.  My Mom drove the '65 until '69 then got the white '69 Mustang 351...   different world then. 

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    Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

    Were those K code Hipo cars?

    Yep...have seen old photos of them, and I remember seeing the convertible in the 70s..it sat in the barn for a decade with the front smashed in...he eventually sold it.  

    emf3_a.jpg

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    8 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Hopefully someone rebuilt it. That is almost the holy grail to me...66...4 speed...dark green. black top and interior...K code....

    Yeah...it sold around 1980-81, before the whole boom in Mustang reproduction parts..he had hit a power pole on High Street in Columbus head on pretty hard..I remember the front inner fenders were buckled and the whole front was pushed upward.  I remember it was a guy from the Pittsburgh area that bought it...always wondered if it was restored.    When my Mom got the '69, he got the '65 coupe, which got totaled a year or so later in Columbus also--got hit from behind.    He then drove a rusty '58 Biscayne his final year at Ohio State...

    Edited by Robert Hall

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    4 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    The Jeep and Trax both fit, but I have to get the right side of the Jeep up close to the wall and fold up the mirrors on the Trax and get it close to the left wall to be able to get in the Jeep.. 

    IMG-0218.JPG

    Got a little room to the left side of the house to remodel out to widen that garage with some spare space for a work bench. ;) 

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    5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    My driveway slopes down and then there is a flat area to park the cars.  Beyond that is a further hill covered in a forest of bamboo.  Coming home last night the bottom of the driveway was iced over and I was going too fast. Almost ended up with the Buick in the Bamboo.

    The Buick Bamboo...

    The perfect name for a Chinese market only Buick cute ute crossover! 

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    RE RoHall's garage, I think Horsey was right- 2 car families were not automatic then, and your garage was likely intended for 1 car and lawn stuff/whatever. My parents were married in '64, didn't get a 2nd car until... hmmm, might have to ask my pop. He had a '70 Catalina (bought new), then he picked up a used circa '72 Nova in the mid '70s, and I think he traded that on the '77 Safari he bought new- by then there were 3 kids.

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    11 hours ago, William Maley said:

    But people aren't taking advantage of public transportation. Here are some quotes from a recent article from The Economist that someone posted about a week ago.

     

    While their is truth to it, keep in mind people have been able to afford the current transportation. Wait for things to go south economy wise  people no longer have a choice.....

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    29 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

    While their is truth to it, keep in mind people have been able to afford the current transportation. Wait for things to go south economy wise  people no longer have a choice.....

    From that article:

    Quote

    JUANA, who came to America from Guatemala, used to take the bus to and from cleaning jobs. It wore on her. Walking to the bus stop after a long day at work was exhausting, especially when it rained, as it occasionally does in Los Angeles. Now Juana drives everywhere, even to her local supermarket, a few blocks away. She had two aspirations: to learn English and to get a car. She has accomplished both.

     

    Just by reading that very 1st paragraph, and really not giving two shytes about the rest of the article, still read it though, the only thing I got from it was... AINT IT THE AMERICAN DREAM TO BE AN OWNER OF A CAR???!!! SO WHY THE CONFUSION AS TO WHY PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION ALWAYS SEEMS TO GET THE SHAFT IN AMERICA???!!!

    Im a hypocrite on this subject though. Im a HUUUGE advocator for public transport but I aint NEVER EVER...EVER gonna give up MY car to ride the damned bus and metro. Even if I worked downphoquingtown. I say I would take public transport if I worked downtown. But that is just a big fat LIE!!! Ever since I had 100% full access to a car, either my dad's because he retired or my very own not too long after he retired, I had stopped taking public transport and I NEVER looked back. I was 20 years old when that happened.  I took the bus and metro a couple of times between the ages of 20 and 21, ONLY because I wanted, had to, study for exams, so I studied on the bus because I did not study the night before because clubbing was obviouly more important!!! 

    But yeah. The good 'ole American Dream. Forget Uber and LYFT and all that. Owning a car and the freedom to go where the phoque you want will ALWAYS trump public transport. Which in turn, will also make UBER and LYFT go by the wayside too. 

    The power of the freedom to use YOUR OWN CAR whenever YOU want wherever YOU wanna go without ANY waiting is too damn strong for even a network of autonomous driving vehicles to fail...We all happily put up with traffic and gridlock because the power of the freedom to use YOUR OWN CAR whenever YOU want wherever YOU wanna go without ANY waiting IS that  strong...

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    30 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

    While their is truth to it, keep in mind people have been able to afford the current transportation. Wait for things to go south economy wise  people no longer have a choice.....

    Ohhhhh things will go south. 

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    Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

    Ohhhhh things will go south. 

    The South Shall Rise Again! 

    Look away! Look away! Dixie land?

    Oopsies! 

     

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    2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    From that article:

     

    Just by reading that very 1st paragraph, and really not giving two shytes about the rest of the article, still read it though, the only thing I got from it was... AINT IT THE AMERICAN DREAM TO BE AN OWNER OF A CAR???!!! SO WHY THE CONFUSION AS TO WHY PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION ALWAYS SEEMS TO GET THE SHAFT IN AMERICA???!!!

    Im a hypocrite on this subject though. Im a HUUUGE advocator for public transport but I aint NEVER EVER...EVER gonna give up MY car to ride the damned bus and metro. Even if I worked downphoquingtown. I say I would take public transport if I worked downtown. But that is just a big fat LIE!!! Ever since I had 100% full access to a car, either my dad's because he retired or my very own not too long after he retired, I had stopped taking public transport and I NEVER looked back. I was 20 years old when that happened.  I took the bus and metro a couple of times between the ages of 20 and 21, ONLY because I wanted, had to, study for exams, so I studied on the bus because I did not study the night before because clubbing was obviouly more important!!! 

    But yeah. The good 'ole American Dream. Forget Uber and LYFT and all that. Owning a car and the freedom to go where the phoque you want will ALWAYS trump public transport. Which in turn, will also make UBER and LYFT go by the wayside too. 

    The power of the freedom to use YOUR OWN CAR whenever YOU want wherever YOU wanna go without ANY waiting is too damn strong for even a network of autonomous driving vehicles to fail...We all happily put up with traffic and gridlock because the power of the freedom to use YOUR OWN CAR whenever YOU want wherever YOU wanna go without ANY waiting IS that  strong...

     

     

    Hard not to agree with that my friend.....

     

    Wouldn’t mind public transport, so I could take the miles and wear and tear off my favorite ride.....:-) 

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    3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    From that article:

    Just by reading that very 1st paragraph, and really not giving two shytes about the rest of the article, still read it though, the only thing I got from it was... AINT IT THE AMERICAN DREAM TO BE AN OWNER OF A CAR???!!! SO WHY THE CONFUSION AS TO WHY PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION ALWAYS SEEMS TO GET THE SHAFT IN AMERICA???!!!

    Im a hypocrite on this subject though. Im a HUUUGE advocator for public transport but I aint NEVER EVER...EVER gonna give up MY car to ride the damned bus and metro. Even if I worked downphoquingtown. I say I would take public transport if I worked downtown. But that is just a big fat LIE!!! Ever since I had 100% full access to a car, either my dad's because he retired or my very own not too long after he retired, I had stopped taking public transport and I NEVER looked back. I was 20 years old when that happened.  I took the bus and metro a couple of times between the ages of 20 and 21, ONLY because I wanted, had to, study for exams, so I studied on the bus because I did not study the night before because clubbing was obviouly more important!!! 

    But yeah. The good 'ole American Dream. Forget Uber and LYFT and all that. Owning a car and the freedom to go where the phoque you want will ALWAYS trump public transport. Which in turn, will also make UBER and LYFT go by the wayside too. 

    The power of the freedom to use YOUR OWN CAR whenever YOU want wherever YOU wanna go without ANY waiting is too damn strong for even a network of autonomous driving vehicles to fail...We all happily put up with traffic and gridlock because the power of the freedom to use YOUR OWN CAR whenever YOU want wherever YOU wanna go without ANY waiting IS that  strong...

    I totally get what you are saying and used to think the same way, always drove to my job and enjoyed my freedom machine. Yet when I got my first ever tech job in Seattle, I quickly learned community transit was my friend.

    Driving from my house to work is 18 miles one way. In an auto by myself takes 1 to 1 1/2 hrs, then $45 a day to park, plus the gas, insurance, etc.

    Today, I save thousands a year on Insurance and drive 1 mile to the local Park n Ride so I qualify for low mileage driving, yet still enjoy my road trips and my Escalade has gone from high miles to low miles since the change as I only put on about 4 to 6 thousand miles a year. The company I work for pays for my Mass Transit pass or what we call an Orca card here which is good for any bus, lite rail or Amtrak train. I have zero stress on my commute which takes all of 30 min from the north end into Seattle where I get off and walk 4 blocks to work. I do not have to pay for parking and my gas bill has dropped big time.

    I OWN MY OWN AUTO's. I enjoy them and drive when ever I want, but I save a ton on gas, maintenance and wear n tear on the auto. Stress free to and from work, fast commute compared to most others and total flexible schedule as buses come every 15 min.

    I personally am not a fan of Uber or Lyft, small tight auto's and honestly just as rude as normal taxis. Take the bus or for when I travel just grab a regular cab from the airport thankfully, this is at most just twice a year for our huge tradeshow in vegas now.

    I have the freedom to go where I want, when I want with my auto, yet I save thousands by using mass transit to get to and from work. Has not changed me seeing doctors or running errands, just saves me money.

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    Paying for parking for work would definitely make me think about public transportation.  Never had to in past jobs, always had a company parking lot or garage.  

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    I understand the merits of public transport. That is why I am a huuuuuge advocator for it. 

    Like I said, Im a hypocrite when it comes to this.  And...selfish.  

    I think I do not want to let go of my car and use public transportation because...because I think I was traumatized using public transport when I was younger waiting for the stupid bus to come, waiting outside in the freezing cold in the winter, even in the bus shelter as its only an open shelter with no heating, waiting for the stupid bus to come, freezing my balls off, and then getting on, and no place to sit.  Or in the summer, waiting for the bus to arrive, getting on the bus, no place to sit, and standing next to a stinky person because sweaty and stinky because no take shower and no deodorant...

    Yeah...no thanx! And I dont care how much money I could save....

    Ill gladly take the wear and tear, the gridlock, the potholes, the occasional speeding tickets, the occasional asshat that cuts me off over waiting for the bus to come while I freeze my ballz off!   :D

     

    (paying for parking daily...🤔) (its expensive in downtown Montreal...🤔

    Funk dat! I think I STILL want to use my car. If I had to do a budget, Id cut down on other things JUST to keep on parking downtown. If it means less internet usage and less satellite TV channels...then so be it!  

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    I've never been on a public bus. Never taken uber/lyft. Been in a taxi only once. All this despite living in 2 major cities during 4 years of college. Trains are the only thing I've been on numerous times.

    Just haven't lived in areas where public transportation was around. Plus my work is 100% non-condusive to public transportation. I think it's great its available for those that can take advantage of it, but it's certainly not a thing that everyone should try to take part of.

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    5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I've never been on a public bus. Never taken uber/lyft. Been in a taxi only once. All this despite living in 2 major cities during 4 years of college. Trains are the only thing I've been on numerous times.

    Just haven't lived in areas where public transportation was around. Plus my work is 100% non-conducive to public transportation. I think it's great its available for those that can take advantage of it, but it's certainly not a thing that everyone should try to take part of.

    Totally agree with all you said. It is not for everyone.

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    Most young people here aspire to live downtown and have a walk or short subway ride to work.  Of those that can afford to live downtown (our 650 sq ft condo rents out for $2400), few can also afford the parking, insurance etc for a car, so we don't even own a parking spot for that condo (was 75 grand If we wanted one IIRC).

     

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    3 hours ago, frogger said:

    Most young people here aspire to live downtown and have a walk or short subway ride to work.  Of those that can afford to live downtown (our 650 sq ft condo rents out for $2400), few can also afford the parking, insurance etc for a car, so we don't even own a parking spot for that condo (was 75 grand If we wanted one IIRC).

     

    A lot of the future will look like this, I think.

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    I go both ways. I drive to work sometimes. I take the bus sometimes.  It is not unusual for me to drive to work with Albert, but leave the car with him and take the bus home since he has to stay later.  I like the bus, but sometimes I want my own car. 

    What I hate most is driving in city rush-hour traffic. 

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    I've spent a lot more time in clogged freeway rush hour traffic than city rush hour traffic..kind of hate bumper-to-bumper freeway traffic especially on 115 degree days when the AC wasn't working....downtown Scottsdale and downtown Phoenix (even as large a city as it is) surface street traffic weren't bad compared to the 10 and 202 freeways coming from the burbs into Phoenix.   Denver freeway traffic on the 25 could be bad also....especially in blizzards. 

    For years I had commutes of where I was I living in a central city neighborhood of Phoenix and commuting to distant suburban office parks by freeway.. sometimes I'd be against the prevailing traffic flow, other times in reverse of it.   Working in Scottsdale, though,  it was all surface streets, with the last 2 miles the most congested at rush hour. 

    And when I lived in Denver, for a couple years I had a 1/2 mile commute...

    So far in Cleveland my commute has been walking from my kitchen to my home office..;)

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    Currently, I live in an inner suburb and work in an outer suburb, so traffic is not too bad going opposite of what the majority do, 30-40 minutes drive, evenings tend to have more traffic than the mornings.  Thankfully I commute east in the evenings so sunsets are not a problem.  My wife hops on the subway to downtown and has a similar length commute.  Her immune system seems so much better than mine with all that exposure she has had over the years :).

     

     

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    I sometimes search for old online photos of my neighbourhood, the best ones available are of the public spaces like libraries and fire halls, as well as of the buses that ran in the 20's, shortly after the neighbourhood was established.  I wonder how many of these buses are preserved somehere.

     

    s0071_it3671.jpg

    s0071_it3555.jpg

     

    TTC had a lot of GM buses in their fleet from the fifties to the eighties.

    ttc-2113-hillcrest-196506.jpg

    I'm partial to the streetcars though.  A few times a year in the summer they bring out the old models on a few routes for a weekend.

    Streetcar-gen_Panora.jpg

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    8 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    No way I'm dealing with other ppl's crap while I am trying to achieve zen on the way to work.

    People Watching is so much fun. :P 

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      Hackett, 65, and Farley, 58, will work together on a smooth leadership transition over the next two months.
      Under Hackett, Ford moved aggressively into the new era of smart vehicles and drove a deeper focus on customers’ wants and needs. At the same time, Ford improved the fitness of the base business – restructuring operations, invigorating the product portfolio and reducing bureaucracy.
      “I am very grateful to Jim Hackett for all he has done to modernize Ford and prepare us to compete and win in the future,” said Bill Ford, Ford’s executive chairman. “Our new product vision – led by the Mustang Mach-E, new F-150 and Bronco family – is taking shape. We now have compelling plans for electric and autonomous vehicles, as well as full vehicle connectivity. And we are becoming much more nimble, which was apparent when we quickly mobilized to make life-saving equipment at the outset of the pandemic.”
      Farley, an automotive leader with deep global experience and a successful track record, collaborated with Hackett over the past three years to develop and execute Ford’s Creating Tomorrow Together plan to transform Ford into a higher-growth, higher-margin business.
      “Jim Farley matches an innate feel for cars and customers with great instincts for the future and the new technologies that are changing our industry,” Bill Ford said. “Jim’s passion for great vehicles and his intense drive for results are well known, and I have also seen him develop into a transformational leader with the determination and foresight to help Ford thrive into the future.”
      Farley joined Ford in 2007 as global head of Marketing and Sales and went on to lead Lincoln, Ford South America, Ford of Europe and all Ford global markets in successive roles. In April 2019, Farley was chosen to lead Ford’s New Businesses, Technology & Strategy team, helping the company determine how to capitalize on powerful forces reshaping the industry – such as software platforms, connectivity, AI, automation and new forms of propulsion. He was named chief operating officer in February of this year.
      Hackett, who will continue as a special advisor to Ford through March of 2021, said the time is right to pass the mantle of leadership to Jim Farley.
      “My goal when I took on the CEO role was to prepare Ford to win in the future,” Hackett said. “The hardest thing for a proud, long-lived company to do is change to meet the challenges of the world it’s entering rather than the world it has known. I’m very proud of how far we have come in creating a modern Ford and I am very optimistic about the future.
      “I have worked side-by-side with Jim Farley for the past three years and have the greatest confidence in him as a person and a leader,” Hackett said. “He has been instrumental in crafting our new product portfolio and redesigning our businesses around the world. He is also a change agent with a deep understanding of how to lead Ford in this new era defined by smart vehicles in a smart world.”
      Said Farley: “I love Ford and I am honored by the opportunity to serve and create value for Ford’s employees, customers, dealers, communities and all of our stakeholders. Jim Hackett has laid the foundation for a really vibrant future and we have made tremendous progress in the past three years. I am so excited to work together with the whole Ford team to realize the full potential of this great company in a new era.”
    • By Drew Dowdell
      The latest CEO at Nissan, Hiroto Saikawa, is out-of-office permanently as of September 16th after yet another financial scandal rocks the company.  Saikawa is the second Nissan CEO to be tainted by financial misconduct allegations. 
      Allegedly, Saikawa received improper payments with regards to the sale of Nissan stock. The payments were after the date of the sale of the stock was altered and netted Saikawa additional hundreds of thousands of dollars. Saikawa has not yet been charged with a crime. Saikawa originally said he would stay on until a replacement was found, but abruptly changed course and formally resigned today.
      The temporary replacement will be Chief Operating Officer Yasuhiro Yamauchi until a permanent replacement has been found. There are currently ten candidates for the positions and Nissan says it is considering outsiders and non-Japanese. 
       

      View full article
    • By Drew Dowdell
      The latest CEO at Nissan, Hiroto Saikawa, is out-of-office permanently as of September 16th after yet another financial scandal rocks the company.  Saikawa is the second Nissan CEO to be tainted by financial misconduct allegations. 
      Allegedly, Saikawa received improper payments with regards to the sale of Nissan stock. The payments were after the date of the sale of the stock was altered and netted Saikawa additional hundreds of thousands of dollars. Saikawa has not yet been charged with a crime. Saikawa originally said he would stay on until a replacement was found, but abruptly changed course and formally resigned today.
      The temporary replacement will be Chief Operating Officer Yasuhiro Yamauchi until a permanent replacement has been found. There are currently ten candidates for the positions and Nissan says it is considering outsiders and non-Japanese. 
       
    • By William Maley
      Saying he wants to give a fresh start for the Nissan-Renault alliance, Nissan CEO Hiroto Saikawa has announced that he'll be stepping down as CEO in the coming months. In the meantime, Saikawa will be focusing on "reforming the poor governance" that weakened the Japanese automaker before leaving.
      Saikawa has been leading the charge of ousting former Nissan Chairman and CEO Carlos Ghosn, a bit surprising since Saikawa was a protege of Ghosn. As we reported a month ago in the rumorpile , the relationship between Saikawa and Ghosn has been strained due to the two clashing on various issues. There was talk about Ghosn ousting Saikawa during a board meeting in November, but that would not happen as Ghosn would be arrested before it.
      Saikawa's reign as Nissan CEO has been problematic with a number of vehicles being recalled in Japan due to improper inspections and declining sales in the U.S.
      Source: Bloomberg

      View full article
  • Posts

    • Tesla Model Y appears to be plagued with poor sales, despite the company slapping 3 grand on the hoods a few months after their debut. GLOBAL sales thru June stand at 13,415, barely surpassing the Model X (12,461). Meanwhile, the Model 3 stands at 142,346. Chevy Bolt, globally, is at 11,496 thru June.
    • Final Story is an interesting read on the Ban of new gasoline auto sales starting in 2035 and how California Power Companies are seaking a streamlined approach to permitting by the Government if they are to build and install what is needed in power generation and grid distribution of created power to support the demands of the EV auto's by 2035. Power companies are wanting approval to build Vehicle-to-Grid or V2G technology to allow the cars that have full batteries to discharge back to the grid during high demand times. This would be a battery buffer on wheels approach to optimizing power distribution. Power Companies of California are expecting a jump of 25% more electricity demand by 2035 when this ice ban goes in effect. Having auto's charge up during the day when there is a surplus of solar generated electricity is a need as is having battery banks so that in the evening when solar drops off but AC and other needs are needed it can offset the demand. Also changing to LED to reduce power consumption by all light sources needs to happen sooner than later so reduce electricity waste. Smart Charging, Smart Storage and changes in how we do things such as excessive lights on at night. A change that will change how we see and do things. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129747_report-california-will-need-massive-grid-upgrades-for-2035-electric-car-push
    • FORD Anouncement - Today Ford announced their deal with Unifor in Canada of their new national labour agreement. Ford will be investing $1.8 Billion CAD to rebuild the Oakville Assembly Complex from an ICE production facility to a full time BEV manufacturing facility. https://electrek.co/2020/09/28/ford-investment-produce-battery-electric-vehicles-canada/ To Quote the deal from the story above: The deal includes several new benefits for Ford employees in Canada: Competitive alternative work schedules to maximize production flexibility Enhanced temporary employee program 2.5% wage increase twice over the life of the agreement C$7,250 ratification bonus for full-time permanent employees and $500 for temporary employees Reduced grow-in period for new hires from 11 years to eight years Interesting Read on the VW ID.4 and the Nissan Ariya EV's. Chasing the Tesla Model Y is a review of the industry and the slew of compact sized EV CUVs that are coming to market over the next 2 years. Interesting take on this is as follows: More than 200 miles of range is the price of entry, and a 300-mile version is probably needed to reassure nervous shoppers and attract attention; Fast charging at 125 kw is the minimum for the next few years, and 350-kw charging is coming on fast; $40,000 is the entry price point for an EV crossover, but it still takes convoluted math to produce an “effective price” that’s as low as the highest-selling entries; and Electric pickup trucks may get the buzz, but compact crossovers are where automakers see EV volume coming. A true generic look when you see these two side by side. https://chargedevs.com/features/volkswagen-id-4-nissan-ariya-bring-ev-drive-to-compact-crossovers-chasing-tesla-model-y/
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