Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
CSpec

Toyota Electric Car May Only Have Half the Range of GM's

43 posts in this topic

Toyota Electric Car May Only Have Half the Range of GM's

Posted Image

Link to Original Article @ Bloomberg
Toyota Motor Corp.'s plug-in electric car may have less than half the range of a competing vehicle planned by General Motors Corp., people with knowledge of both companies' development programs said.

GM wants its Chevrolet Volt to travel at least 40 miles after being charged at a normal household outlet, while the Toyota model may go no more than 20 miles on a single charge
, said the people, who asked not to be identified because details of the plans are still secret.

Beating Toyota in new technology like rechargeable vehicles is part of Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner's plan to show GM can compete with the Japanese automaker. Toyota is poised to surpass GM as the largest automaker this year, helped by fuel- efficient cars such as the Prius, the world's top-selling hybrid.

"The latest arms race is being driven by GM,'' said Jack Nerad, an analyst at Irvine, California-based Kelley Blue Book and author of ``The Complete Idiot's Guide to Hybrid & Alternative Fuel Vehicles.'' ``They one-upped everyone with the Volt, and they are saying they aren't going to be out-greened by anyone anymore.''

The market for cars less reliant on gasoline is growing as automakers face stricter exhaust and carbon pollution rules from governments around the world. The companies also are under pressure to boost fuel economy amid U.S. gasoline prices that reached a record $3.22 a gallon in May.

Breakthrough Potential

Prius shows the potential for breakthrough technology. Toyota sold 5,562 of the cars in 2000. Sales tripled the following year, and totaled 110,565 units this year through July. That makes the Prius the 12th most popular vehicle in the U.S., according to Autodata Corp., a Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey, company that monitors the industry.

Prius helped the Toyota City, Japan-based automaker earn a record $14 billion in its last fiscal year. GM lost $1.98 billion in 2006. GM shares have fallen 23 percent the last five years while Toyota's have more than doubled. GM shares fell 97 cents to $32.42 at 2:19 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. Toyota's American depositary receipts rose 97 cents to $119.59.

Road Test

Toyota said on July 25 it will road-test experimental plug- in Prius cars this year in the U.S. and Japan. The cars go about eight miles on a charge, Toyota Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto said at a press conference in Tokyo.

A plug-in Prius for the consumer market would probably go farther, said Jaycie Chitwood, a U.S. senior strategic planner with Toyota's advanced vehicle group in Torrance, California. She declined to provide Toyota's target range.

Toyota believes producing an electric car with a range of 40 miles or more can't be done at a cost that would make the vehicle affordable for most consumers, she said, citing the need for advanced batteries and special recharging equipment. ``We're not going that route because of those obstacles,'' she said.

A plug-in Prius probably would have an electricity-only range of 20 miles or less, and maybe as little as 10 miles, according to a person with direct knowledge of Toyota's plans who didn't want to be identified.

Lutz Confident

GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in June he's confident GM can overcome any obstacles to producing an electric car with a 40-mile range. GM says that target is significant because more than half of Americans live within 20 miles of their jobs. The automaker hopes to patent technology that would extend the range beyond 40 miles, people with direct knowledge of the plans said.

GM showed its Volt concept car in January and aims to have a drivable prototype in early 2008 that travels about 10 miles on a charge, the people said. The 40-mile Volt would follow in 2009 and might go on sale by the end of the decade, they said. GM spokesman Scott Fosgard declined to comment on the timetable.

The company poured more than $1 billion into its EV-1 electric car a decade ago. GM abandoned the vehicle, which needed frequent recharging, after leasing 800 of them in four years.

The Volt will face similar challenges, said K.G. Duleep, managing director of Arlington, Virginia-based Energy & Environmental Analysis Inc.

``All the power has to be delivered by the battery, and that's a lot of battery,'' said Duleep, who advises automakers on engine technology. ``This will not be cheap.''

Beth Lowery, GM's vice president for environmental issues, declined to say what the Volt will cost. She said it will be ``affordable.''

Gasoline-electric hybrids such as Prius and GM's Chevrolet Tahoe sport-utility vehicle use electric motors only at start-up and lower speeds, and rely on engine power and friction from braking to recharge the battery.

'Bigger Risk'

The Volt is charged at a household outlet and uses an onboard engine to generate electricity when the battery runs down. The engine, powered by gasoline, diesel or hydrogen fuel cells, only recharges the battery and doesn't drive the wheels. Its full range would be about 640 miles on a tank of gasoline.

Electric-vehicle fans are frustrated with Toyota for not having a plug-in Prius by now and with GM for killing the EV-1, said Chris Paine, whose 2006 documentary, ``Who Killed the Electric Car?'' criticized GM's decision.

``The market is going to sort out which one is best,'' Paine said in an interview from San Francisco. ``GM is taking a bigger risk, and I applaud them for that.''
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh. Didn't GM already produce a car with a 40+ mile range in the EV1?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was it that far. I think all the EV's got crushed when they were pulled from service tho. I saw one EV in my life. This is good GM is doing this. Although I don't see myself in a hybrid for the next ten years.

Edited by gm4life
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was it that far. I think all the EV's got crushed when they were pulled from service tho. I saw one EV in my life. This is good GM is doing this. Although I don't see myself in a hybrid for the next ten years.

The EV-1 generation 2 had a range of about 100 miles per charge on NiMH Batteries. If it had Lithium Ion batteries, it might have been able to do 250 like the Tesla.

Edit: I don't know if the EV-1s had regenerative braking or not. This guy test drove and EV-1 gen 2 for 5 days and on the 4th and 5th day he admittedly abused it and still got 83 miles to a charge..... this was in 1999.

Edited by Oldsmoboi
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cant help but notice how much better looking the Volt is compared to the Prius. I hope GM delivers!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paine is a pain. maybe that asshole ought to buy a degree and single handedly engineer us a fking battery that people can afford and that can satisfy his masturbatory fantasies.

at some point, will people in this country stop spewing crap on fiim or in print, trying to be experts, when in reality what they need to do is offer us fricking solutions and answers not grounded in simple ideals or generalities.

"I would applaud our leaders if they can solve world hunger and poverty'.

THERE! I SAID IT!

see, doesn't mean jack sh1t if I can't offer the detail on how we precisely plan to do that!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from the looks of the volt, it would be smaller than the fat looking pius, therefore, hopefully weighing less. toyo's getting that status quo ideology from what i understand, even if keeping it "cheap enough for the masses" is their reasoning.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The EV-1 generation 2 had a range of about 100 miles per charge on NiMH Batteries. If it had Lithium Ion batteries, it might have been able to do 250 like the Tesla.

Edit: I don't know if the EV-1s had regenerative braking or not. This guy test drove and EV-1 gen 2 for 5 days and on the 4th and 5th day he admittedly abused it and still got 83 miles to a charge..... this was in 1999.

Yes, the EV-1 had regenerative braking - one of the MANY breakthroughs that it brought about, and make any modern electric or hybrid vehicle at all feasible. Toyota can try to convince everyone about how far ahead they are, but they weren't first to market (Honda was first modern hybrid), and 99%* of the technology didn't originate with them (see EV-1).

*keep in mind that 72% of all statistics are made up on the spot...*

Edited by PurdueGuy
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Read it that in real world it will have NO RANGE!!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw one EV in my life.

Yeah, same here....in a museum.

Good for GM, I hope they beat Toyota to the punch.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good for GM, I hope they beat Toyota to the punch.

My only concern is that GM will tale this news to heart and Toyota will come out with something that the insiders have yet to see that will blow GM out of the water. We can't forget that with the record profits that Toyota is making, they have LOTS of money for R&D.

I'm rooting for GM on this one.

Edited by Bob
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a deep irony in GM being first with the EV-1 --....as with consumer electronics. perhaps we should be somewhat resigned to the fact that Japan has done a wonderful job of refining an idea...

Does anyone know which management genius signed his name to stopping (eviserating)that program?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Toyota believes producing an electric car with a range of 40 miles or more can't be done at a cost that would make the vehicle affordable for most consumers, she said, citing the need for advanced batteries and special recharging equipment. ``We're not going that route because of those obstacles,'' she said.

lets make sure we save this quote for when the first production volt 40 miles

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They HAVE had some original ideas... like bombing pearl harbour

afer giving us peace medals. Also, having Osimo fall flat on his

face at a P.R. even was pretty original as well as making a P.O.S.

Minivan with an open arse & balsawood floor & calling it a "truck"

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

honestly this whole Volt vs Prius thing, should not be taken lightly. GM and the companies need to guard the secret of the Volt's systems and batteries, like it's a national security secret. this could be one of their saving vehicles, and if the toyota-ians get a hold of it, it would be a hot mess.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They HAVE had some original ideas... like bombing pearl harbour

afer giving us peace medals. Also, having Osimo fall flat on his

face at a P.R. even was pretty original as well as making a P.O.S.

Minivan with an open arse & balsawood floor & calling it a "truck"

Was that Toyota or Nissan that bombed PH? Or BMW that killed millions? Or GM that murdered Natives with Small Pox ridden blankets?

C'mon, dude.

I pray for GM to invent the better mousetrap. We'll see if the batteries are commercially viable before I worry about anyone's theoretical range...The Chinese will have a high speed all electric vehicle on the market NEXT year....so this all may have already been done by someone else...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the EV-1 had regenerative braking - one of the MANY breakthroughs that it brought about, and make any modern electric or hybrid vehicle at all feasible. Toyota can try to convince everyone about how far ahead they are, but they weren't first to market (Honda was first modern hybrid), and 99%* of the technology didn't originate with them (see EV-1).

*keep in mind that 72% of all statistics are made up on the spot...*

no Toyota had a hybrid before Honda, and Honda doesn't offer a full hybrid.

the RAV4-EV always had NiMH batteries and regenerative braking.

and GM's NiMH battery originated from Toyota's Panasonic supplier who is no longer working with GM.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and toyota invented sliced bread and the light bulb, too. and coca-cola. and computers.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no one can accuse japan of ever having an original idea, yes.

I've said something similar to this before and got lambasted by the rice-a-roni crowd around here. However, I agree in terms of comparing the ideas of American car companies through the years with that of german and japanese...... The japanese seem to take others ideas and build upon them as oppossed to coming up with ideas that are truely their own. And it seems the ideas that can be credited to the japanese makers can usually be traced back to engineering and design centers that are actually here in the United States....(which by the "where-ever it's 'assembled' argument" makes those ideas AMERICAN).

GM has the innovative capacity to spank the prius with the VOLT and, I too am hoping that happens.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and toyota invented sliced bread and the light bulb, too. and coca-cola. and computers.

And the Internet and pants, as well..

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea, forget about the range. The real factor here is that Toyota is going to get their prius to market way before the volt ever makes it and probably for a much more competitive price. And its funny that they're not even talking the plug-in prius up as GM has been touting its volt.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the Internet and pants, as well..

I thought the Internet was invented by Al Gore :smilewide:
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the Internet was invented by Al Gore :smilewide:

Naah, he invented trees.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0