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ocnblu

CAFE of death

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As we sit here, a dedicated group of GM enthusiasts, blissfully waiting for the new Camaro among other great products, the curtain is being drawn on us. These new CAFE requirements are ever closer to reality, and they will kill any chance for auto enthusiasts to get what they want.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned this? By ignoring this coming apocalypse, are we hoping it will go away and our lives will not change? This is a huge blow to so many things automotive we hold dear as Americans. By imposing these ridiculous standards on cars AND light trucks, they are forcing the car companies to kill pickup trucks with work capacity... cars with passenger capacity and any kind of horsepower... Zeta will be aborted... Alpha will be considered too big.

How will passion for the automobile survive this? This is a catastrophe in my eyes, a complete and utter disgrace put upon us by a myopic Congress that is using the auto industry as a whipping boy... when so much can be done in so many other areas to help our country become more self-reliant.

The market is smart enough to correct itself... let the customer drive the auto companies' offerings... NOT the Congress!!!

Edited by ocnblu
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The problem is that the automakers themselves have already caved to the new standards.

To me that means that they have strategies to deal with it. The fine print will determine how it all shakes out.

I predict that the post-election government will re-visit this issue and change things to a more realistic version later.

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I'm curious... and there is no answer I am looking for, just want to know passionate opinions:

If GM introduced a Camaro RS/SS - It would be as fast as a projected SS. Would have no weight gain - actually have a near favorable 50-50 distribution, handle just as well, and come with all the bells and whistles on any other Camaro, except for one thing... A big honking V-8.

This Camaro would have a souped up version of the Volt drivetrain - run completely on electric except for a little diesel (yes I stole that from the Opel version) that would kick in to charge the batteries. As I said this "imaginary" Camaro would have the same speed as a top of the line V8 powered car. Would anyone bite? All the speed and power without the mpg overhead.

Can we motorheads accept something so strange? Can we accept giving up the rumble of the V8? Can we exchange that for gas $, pollution, less oil changes, etc. I don't know how I would even answer that, but I feel that a change is coming - and I certainly don't want it legislated, let the market run its course - and curious how we would react to a musclecar without the usual ingredient.

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I'm curious... and there is no answer I am looking for, just want to know passionate opinions:

If GM introduced a Camaro RS/SS - It would be as fast as a projected SS. Would have no weight gain - actually have a near favorable 50-50 distribution, handle just as well, and come with all the bells and whistles on any other Camaro, except for one thing... A big honking V-8.

This Camaro would have a souped up version of the Volt drivetrain - run completely on electric except for a little diesel (yes I stole that from the Opel version) that would kick in to charge the batteries. As I said this "imaginary" Camaro would have the same speed as a top of the line V8 powered car. Would anyone bite? All the speed and power without the mpg overhead.

Can we motorheads accept something so strange? Can we accept giving up the rumble of the V8? Can we exchange that for gas $, pollution, less oil changes, etc. I don't know how I would even answer that, but I feel that a change is coming - and I certainly don't want it legislated, let the market run its course - and curious how we would react to a musclecar without the usual ingredient.

What is coming next in the auto performance world is anyones guess. The Big boats of the 50's were replaced with the full sized muscle of the early sixties followed by the smaller muscle cars and pony cars, which were followed by the mullet generation Camaro's and Mustangs, which were followed by the Japanese tuner cars...the only constant we have is change.

Supply of petroleum and energy will kill off the factory V8 muscle car if the government does not. The best thing is to enjoy and preserve the older v8 cars and to develop new, more fuel efficient muscle cars.

That Camaro you describe may very well be the 2019 version...

Chris

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From where I sit, if we want trucks to retain any kind of work capacity, cars will need to be tiny, 45+ mpg machines. Trucks will still be castrated, but cars will be decimated by this.

I am not ready for the sweet, sexy rumble of a V8 engine to be choked off forever in favor of the whir of an electric motor. For God's sake, a Chevrolet Camaro is more than just a bodyshell, it's the whole package. Who in the heck wants to plug in their virtual musclecar?

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I'm curious... and there is no answer I am looking for, just want to know passionate opinions:

If GM introduced a Camaro RS/SS - It would be as fast as a projected SS. Would have no weight gain - actually have a near favorable 50-50 distribution, handle just as well, and come with all the bells and whistles on any other Camaro, except for one thing... A big honking V-8.

This Camaro would have a souped up version of the Volt drivetrain - run completely on electric except for a little diesel (yes I stole that from the Opel version) that would kick in to charge the batteries. As I said this "imaginary" Camaro would have the same speed as a top of the line V8 powered car. Would anyone bite? All the speed and power without the mpg overhead.

Can we motorheads accept something so strange? Can we accept giving up the rumble of the V8? Can we exchange that for gas $, pollution, less oil changes, etc. I don't know how I would even answer that, but I feel that a change is coming - and I certainly don't want it legislated, let the market run its course - and curious how we would react to a musclecar without the usual ingredient.

I would need to experience it before I pass judgment on it. I've never lived with a fuel cell/electric powered car, so I don't know if I would like it or not. My initial reaction would be HELL NO! just because I live with a V8 powered car, and I love the rumble from it, but I'm willing to give fuel cells/electric cars a chance, as long as improvements are made to them to where they don't kill the performance aspects of cars.

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I'm somewhat optimistic that we will embrace new technology that will allow cars to not change much while getting better MPGs. We have made some pretty big leaps in the last few years. Look at the Tahoe Hybrid now getting 21 mpg in the city or the Volt being able to go 40 miles without using any gas. As long as they keep improving on that technology, I can see it being possible. As for heavy duty trucks, I think and hope that concessions will be made for them, but sports cars, large cars, and regular trucks and SUVs hopefully will be able to meet these changes with turbodiesels, hybrids, fuel cells, etc. The downside I can see is that cost of a new vehicle will skyrocket in the first few years these technologies are on the market.

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My enthusiasm for 'spirited driving' and boulevard cruising in the big V8 of my dreams died a long time ago. Endless traffic jams, ridiculously low speed limits, arrogant and stupid drivers, outrageous insurance prices - these all killed the automobile as anything more than mere transportation for me.

There are so few places where the modern motorcar can be used to its full design capability left. Sorry, but I would rather see the European approach of high gas taxes to 'encourage' people into more fuel efficient vehicles. At $10 a gallon (which is where most other countries in the world are at these days), consumers are free to buy what they want, but most will choose a vehicle that gets 40+ mpg.

A 1960s anything will always turn my head, but I live in the reality of today...........

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Diesels are part of the answer, I think... I'll always have V8 fun cars for weekend use, but for daily driving, I'd be happy in the future w/ a diesel SUV or diesel luxury sedan.

Edited by moltar
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Honestly I don't mind the "death of the V8"--at least as it affects me. I don't like driving V8s very much. Sure, they're fast, but I don't need that much power off the line, and I certainly tend to inadvertantly squeal tires at traffic lights. I much prefer the feel of the V6 powerbands (at least of those that I've driven), and that's why my 2001 Aurora is a 3.5 and not a 4.0--It has plenty of power for me, and the mileage is pretty good!

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I'm curious... and there is no answer I am looking for, just want to know passionate opinions:

If GM introduced a Camaro RS/SS - It would be as fast as a projected SS. Would have no weight gain - actually have a near favorable 50-50 distribution, handle just as well, and come with all the bells and whistles on any other Camaro, except for one thing... A big honking V-8.

This Camaro would have a souped up version of the Volt drivetrain - run completely on electric except for a little diesel (yes I stole that from the Opel version) that would kick in to charge the batteries. As I said this "imaginary" Camaro would have the same speed as a top of the line V8 powered car. Would anyone bite? All the speed and power without the mpg overhead.

Can we motorheads accept something so strange? Can we accept giving up the rumble of the V8? Can we exchange that for gas $, pollution, less oil changes, etc. I don't know how I would even answer that, but I feel that a change is coming - and I certainly don't want it legislated, let the market run its course - and curious how we would react to a musclecar without the usual ingredient.

NO!

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If the goal is to curb the consumption of gasoline, a gas tax would seem to be much more effective...but politically unpopular with the voters. CAFE is ill conceived, much like letting hybrids (optimized for stop and go traffic) use the HOV lane with only a single occupant in the vehicle.

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Gasoline gets to $3/gallon, and voila, people start paying attention to fuel economy ratings when they shop for a vehicle. That speaks loud and clear to me that the market is not stupid! Forcing this legislation down our throats is borderline communist... it will severely limit choice in new vehicles. For the sake of the auto industry's future, and our freedom as Americans, we've gotta do something to steer this off course. I don't want to pay huge amounts of money for a vehicle that does not meet my wants or needs.
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Can we motorheads accept something so strange? Can we accept giving up the rumble of the V8? Can we exchange that for gas $, pollution, less oil changes, etc. I don't know how I would even answer that, but I feel that a change is coming - and I certainly don't want it legislated, let the market run its course - and curious how we would react to a musclecar without the usual ingredient.
Nope, I'll stick to the classics. If I want a golf cart, I'll buy one and save the extra cash for all the liquor I'd need to buy to stave off constant depression.

Supply of petroleum and energy will kill off the factory V8 muscle car if the government does not. The best thing is to enjoy and preserve the older v8 cars and to develop new, more fuel efficient muscle cars.

And why exactly?!?!

We can run factory V8's off of much more than oil. (Hydrogen, Ethanol, CNG)

I think the real answer lies in a combination of things... 20 years from now, will hybrids and electrics be a dominant form of transportation? YES. But will we gearheads still have the option of a V8 in the same showroom? MORE THAN LIKELY.

Remember: This isn't going to happen over night and we're not looking at the death of the V8 anytime soon. Gas was more expensive in the 80's and more scarce in the 70's. What did we do? We engineered better performance cars.

My enthusiasm for 'spirited driving' and boulevard cruising in the big V8 of my dreams died a long time ago. Endless traffic jams, ridiculously low speed limits, arrogant and stupid drivers, outrageous insurance prices - these all killed the automobile as anything more than mere transportation for me.

There are so few places where the modern motorcar can be used to its full design capability left. Sorry, but I would rather see the European approach of high gas taxes to 'encourage' people into more fuel efficient vehicles. At $10 a gallon (which is where most other countries in the world are at these days), consumers are free to buy what they want, but most will choose a vehicle that gets 40+ mpg.

A 1960s anything will always turn my head, but I live in the reality of today...........

Sounds like you need a change of location, my friend.

If the CAFE passed seriously affects our choice (Which I think it ultimately won't -- I'm optimistic that if the companies are embracing it now; THAT says something) I'll just stick with older cars and probably say 'to hell with the hobby'

When they come to take my old cars... Well, that's when I'll have the guns ready and I guess it'll be the end. (I'm seriously as your mother-in-law about that too)

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I predict that the post-election government will re-visit this issue and change things to a more realistic version later.

:rotflmao:

The auto companies caved now because a) it was a losing battle; and b) it would only get worse (much worse) after the election (do I hear 50 mpg, I have 50 mpg, do I hear any advance on 50 mpg? …)

The main problem for auto companies is not technical, it is the economics of supply and demand, which is why CAFE has never worked in the past and never will in future. If cars are priced similarly consumers treat more efficient vehicles as an excuse to buy more powerful vehicles with the same economy. If increased fuel economy costs more money, they'll buy a used car that doesn't have better fuel economy. These higher regulations will add a lot of cost (at least $5K in the near future, probably $10K by 2020). Added cost will drive down sales, and result in an older fleet of less efficient, more polluting vehicles. Unless sufficient financial incentives are given to consumers, particularly in the form of tax rebates, they will not buy the more efficient vehicles congress thinks they want. They simply won't be able to afford to. It won't just kill big trucks and large cars, it could kill mainstream cars sales as you know it. Choices will be limited to A-, B- and C-segment cars in the affordable brands, and only luxury models for anything larger than a 1.6 L compact. No Accord, no Camry, no Malibu, no Chrysler or Buick under $35-40K. The top 5 best-selling cars lines wil be the Aveo, Fit, Yaris, 3-series and Fiesta. The top 10 won't include anything larger than the Astra (which will cost as much as a Malibu [or more]). Higher fuel consumption, clapped out 10-15 yo cars will be nearly 70% of car purchases in 2020.

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… If the CAFE passed seriously affects our choice (Which I think it ultimately won't -- I'm optimistic that if the companies are embracing it now; THAT says something) I'll just stick with older cars and probably say 'to hell with the hobby'

When they come to take my old cars... Well, that's when I'll have the guns ready and I guess it'll be the end. (I'm seriously as your mother-in-law about that too)

What choice do they have FOG? "Embracing" CAFE is all about PR—no-one wants to be enabled the evil corporate opposition to good fuel economy. There is also an element of "Will you please come to an agreement so we can decide how many people to fire (the UAW should have laid seige to congress over the summer—2013 will be black Friday every day), plants to close and models to cut.

They won't take your old cars FOG, although they should have made it increasingly more expensive to register them for daily use, and offered substantial rebates to trade them for modern, fuel-efficient models. Like increasing gas taxes, I think the anti-car opponents are too scared to bring a wider range of older cars under the limited annual-mileage "classic" category. Get in early and organize a national heritage register for specific vehicles in good condition to ensure they are saved from the crusher.

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We aren't going to get a chance to do anything about it.

You only have to look at the population growth to see that.

Carbiz does make a good point, as you are going to see this in more and more cities world wide.

We used to laugh at the idea of a banning of muscle cars, but that is not going to seem as funny as the "greenies" get more and more of their way. In most ways, it is just a matter of time.....

I actually see less cars as more and more cities will jump on the public transportation bandwagon....

The next ten years are going to be very intersting for us car people....

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What choice do they have FOG? "Embracing" CAFE is all about PR—no-one wants to be enabled the evil corporate opposition to good fuel economy. There is also an element of "Will you please come to an agreement so we can decide how many people to fire (the UAW should have laid seige to congress over the summer—2013 will be black Friday every day), plants to close and models to cut.

They won't take your old cars FOG, although they should have made it increasingly more expensive to register them for daily use, and offered substantial rebates to trade them for modern, fuel-efficient models. Like increasing gas taxes, I think the anti-car opponents are too scared to bring a wider range of older cars under the limited annual-mileage "classic" category. Get in early and organize a national heritage register for specific vehicles in good condition to ensure they are saved from the crusher.

Nah-I see more of a push to "recycle" these cars....

And if you don't want to do it-your neighbor might..... :(

Nobody in Congress cares about cars. Period.

Edited by daves87rs
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First off, the whole 'green movement' is nothing more than the social movement of the moment. Sure, there will always be greenies and there always has been but the movement has just recently begun under the Gore :bs: The average social movement only lasts about 5 years before everyone gets tired of it. This is already happening in some places (Remember? Europeans now view the green 'commitment' as just another way to regulate our lives)

Honestly, I don't think it'll ever get to the point of disaster that griffon predicts because there is too much at stake. As far as the old cars go, that's fine by me. Like I've stated before, my costs are very little because the cars are driven less than 500 miles each year. Heck, gas could reach $5/gallon and it really wouldn't affect me that much. The classic car industry already has lobbyists and groups formed and working for us. HOPEFULLY they have the foresight to be keeping an eye on things and can be proactive as opposed to reactive. We fight 'recycling' laws every year and as far as neighbors doing it for me; I'll never live in the Suburbia hell that is an owners association, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.

You guys are so bleak that it floors me (Which is funny, since I'm usually Mr. Negativity) We have very good technology and a society that has adjusted to change very well thus far. I just don't see a communist-like push to destroy ALL cars. Maybe some, like large SUVs that a lot of people shouldn't be driving anyway, but not everything. Hell, even the yuppies will start bitching when they start having to give up their Highlanders, 4Runners and Camrys.

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The classic car community needs to be active in locating unmodified classic cars in good condition and having them designation as "protected" (just like buildings) or too many of them will end up in the crusher to be recycled. Be pro-active and do it now before demands come to get rid of old gas guzzlers. The provision that they be only driven limited miles like the oldest classics should appease "green" lobbyists.

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Twelve years is far, far away, and with oil prices the way they are, as well as the interest of green technologies and a new generation of drivers, I'm confident we'll exceed 35 miles per gallon, CAFE or not.

I don't see performance cars or classics being compromised any time soon, as they exist in relatively low numbers, and apart from the odd 300C or G8, there aren't mainstream V8 sedans anymore. This effects the average everyday car, and for most people, the silence of hybrid drive or lower fueling costs would be an advantage.

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Vehicle prices are going to go through the roof, limiting sales which will hurt the car companies. People will hold onto their older cars longer, thereby defeating the stated purpose of these stupid rules. Cars will be tiny. Americans have shown they prefer larger vehicles. This is a big country. This is not Europe or Japan, where smaller vehicles make so much more sense, due to population density, narrow roads, and yes, fuel prices.
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First off, the whole 'green movement' is nothing more than the social movement of the moment. Sure, there will always be greenies and there always has been but the movement has just recently begun under the Gore :bs: The average social movement only lasts about 5 years before everyone gets tired of it. This is already happening in some places (Remember? Europeans now view the green 'commitment' as just another way to regulate our lives)

Honestly, I don't think it'll ever get to the point of disaster that griffon predicts because there is too much at stake. As far as the old cars go, that's fine by me. Like I've stated before, my costs are very little because the cars are driven less than 500 miles each year. Heck, gas could reach $5/gallon and it really wouldn't affect me that much. The classic car industry already has lobbyists and groups formed and working for us. HOPEFULLY they have the foresight to be keeping an eye on things and can be proactive as opposed to reactive. We fight 'recycling' laws every year and as far as neighbors doing it for me; I'll never live in the Suburbia hell that is an owners association, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.

You guys are so bleak that it floors me (Which is funny, since I'm usually Mr. Negativity) We have very good technology and a society that has adjusted to change very well thus far. I just don't see a communist-like push to destroy ALL cars. Maybe some, like large SUVs that a lot of people shouldn't be driving anyway, but not everything. Hell, even the yuppies will start bitching when they start having to give up their Highlanders, 4Runners and Camrys.

Agreed.

Don't regulate - innovate!

I will never drive a microcar - never.

No one will ever take any of my cars to the crusher, I won't permit it.

If the cars and trucks I want are forced off of the market, I'll just have older cars for the rest of my life.

In fact, I'll build one to be as polluting and wasteful as I can make it and drive it whenever and wherever I please.

This is non-negotiable, so they had best not push the issue.

With all of that said, I don't think we will have to face any such thing. When the impact of the unintended consequences hits, the government will be forced to relax the rules. In any case, I will own and drive whatever I choose.

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