Oracle of Delphi

Mark LaNeve: Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car

102 posts in this topic

The hits just keep on coming for fans of the Chevy Camaro. Just yesterday, we quoted Bob Lutz as suggesting that the Camaro could get a four-cylinder engine option. Now we hear that Mark LaNeve, VP of sales and marketing for GM North America, says that, "We won't position it as a muscle car," speaking again of the 2010 Camaro. Sure, you could spend hours debating the terms "muscle car" and "pony car", but we're pretty sure that very few ever thought of the Camaro as a fuel-efficient option. But, that's exactly how GM will position it. "The mainstream positioning will be fuel economy, design and a V-6," says LaNeve.

The truth seems to be that GM just cannot afford to sell a couple hundred thousand Camaros a year with V8 engines rated at around 20 miles per gallon combined. But, before V8-lovers get too upset, remember that it is the fuel efficient engine options which make the fire-breathing V8 an option at all. Without mainstream options like either a direct-injected V6 or even a small turbocharged 4, there is simply no way that Chevrolet could ever reintroduce the Camaro at all.

Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/22/mark-la...s-a-muscle-car/

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Wasn't it Lutz himself that said GM would be raising prices to dry up demand for larger engines? I'm thinking Camaro fans should get ready: the car won't be as cheap as people expect it to be, especially on V8 models.

Edited by ZL-1
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The hits just keep on coming for fans of the Chevy Camaro. Just yesterday, we quoted Bob Lutz as suggesting that the Camaro could get a four-cylinder engine option. Now we hear that Mark LaNeve, VP of sales and marketing for GM North America, says that, "We won't position it as a muscle car," speaking again of the 2010 Camaro. Sure, you could spend hours debating the terms "muscle car" and "pony car", but we're pretty sure that very few ever thought of the Camaro as a fuel-efficient option. But, that's exactly how GM will position it. "The mainstream positioning will be fuel economy, design and a V-6," says LaNeve.

The truth seems to be that GM just cannot afford to sell a couple hundred thousand Camaros a year with V8 engines rated at around 20 miles per gallon combined. But, before V8-lovers get too upset, remember that it is the fuel efficient engine options which make the fire-breathing V8 an option at all. Without mainstream options like either a direct-injected V6 or even a small turbocharged 4, there is simply no way that Chevrolet could ever reintroduce the Camaro at all.

Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/22/mark-la...s-a-muscle-car/

I'm ALL for different fuel-efficient engine options......the turbo Ecotec, the DI V6.....but to actually try to position the Camaro in the marketplace as anything less than it's traditional standing as a powerful muscle/pony car would be a disaster for GM.

Look at the Mustang......young kids and nostalgic middle-agers lie in bed at night dreaming of a Mustang GT or GT500......but the vast majority of the public DO get the V6. They get the V6 because it's less-expensive, more fuel-efficient, and easier to insure. BUT it was the V8 that got them excited about a Mustang in the first place.

GM needs to take the same stance with the Camaro. They'll kill it if they try to pussify it.

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I'm ALL for different fuel-efficient engine options......the turbo Ecotec, the DI V6.....but to actually try to position the Camaro in the marketplace as anything less than it's traditional standing as a powerful muscle/pony car would be a disaster for GM.

Look at the Mustang......young kids and nostalgic middle-agers lie in bed at night dreaming of a Mustang GT or GT500......but the vast majority of the public DO get the V6. They get the V6 because it's less-expensive, more fuel-efficient, and easier to insure. BUT it was the V8 that got them excited about a Mustang in the first place.

GM needs to take the same stance with the Camaro. They'll kill it if they try to pussify it.

:yes:

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I'm ALL for different fuel-efficient engine options......the turbo Ecotec, the DI V6.....but to actually try to position the Camaro in the marketplace as anything less than it's traditional standing as a powerful muscle/pony car would be a disaster for GM.

Look at the Mustang......young kids and nostalgic middle-agers lie in bed at night dreaming of a Mustang GT or GT500......but the vast majority of the public DO get the V6. They get the V6 because it's less-expensive, more fuel-efficient, and easier to insure. BUT it was the V8 that got them excited about a Mustang in the first place.

GM needs to take the same stance with the Camaro. They'll kill it if they try to pussify it.

+1

I completely agree. I think GM should keep great prices on the fuel efficient models and then hold nothing back on the v8 and charge for it. No one should complain about the v8s price if the cars got a big hairy set on it.

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I could care less what GM positions it or labels it as. The only thing that matters to me is that the basic V6 model does not cost some totally asinine price, which it more than likely won't.

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... "The mainstream positioning will be fuel economy, design and a V-6," says LaNeve.

...

Oh no!!! They're mostly going to sell V6's!!! I might as well just give up all hope...

:rolleyes:

So, the whole point of this article is to say that they will push the more fuel efficient models, but to do it with a very doom-and-gloom tone.

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If that is what takes to save the icon and breed it in large numbers, then so be it. I am willing to pay more for the V-8.

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As long as they offer the ridiculous V8 option, this sounds fine and smart. I just hope it's not too heavy.

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I'm not interested in the Challenger or Mustang at all, but I do like the Camaro precisely because it's more than a traditional retro muscle car. The Camaro can also be a contemporary and sophisticated sports coupe that targets 3-series or G37.

To a lot of the younger generation a "Camaro" means no more than "Genesis Coupe", and GM will have to convince people to choose Camaro over EVO, STI, M, Z, etc. Thankfully the Camaro has more than just power and nostalgia on its side; it is also universally good looking, presumably competent in the bends, and available with a choice of powertrains each appealing to different buyers. Me, I'm most excited for the turbo four, and I don't care for the V8s.

Edited by empowah
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I'm not interested in the Challenger or Mustang at all, but I do like the Camaro precisely because it's more than a traditional retro muscle car. The Camaro can also be a contemporary and sophisticated sports coupe that targets 3-series or G37.

To a lot of the younger generation a "Camaro" means no more than "Genesis Coupe", and GM will have to convince people to choose Camaro over EVO, STI, M, Z, etc. Thankfully the Camaro has more than just power and nostalgia on its side; it is also universally good looking, presumably competent in the bends, and available with a choice of powertrains each appealing to different buyers. Me, I'm most excited for the turbo four, and I don't care for the V8s.

I hope there are enough people that think as you do so that the V8s can remain with us.

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The more choice the better. There is no way the business model would work with just the V-8. Or doesn't anyone remember that 25 years ago the V-6 Camaro was the ultimate 'secretary's car?'

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It's either this or risk the ire of naive congressmen and senators who think cars should have their cylinder count and power limited. Of course they could agree with their competitors no to claim more than 278 hp (no matter how much it really has) for their performance engines, as they used to do in Japan. ("Psst, can you keep a secret? It's got a bitchin' mad V8, but we don't want Hillary to get wind of it.")

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If that is what takes to save the icon and breed it in large numbers, then so be it. I am willing to pay more for the V-8.

Let me pull a question out of my ass: How much exactly would you be willing to pay for the V8? :smilewide:

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Just make a damn V8 that gets 40 mpg and 400hp. Wtf? Worried about costs? You'd be the only one with that engine and they'd sell like hot cakes, you'd make it all back. *shakes head* Seems like GMs only solution for better efficiency is less cylindars. Can't someone in the industry actually build something revolutionary? Oh, I forgot, they can't because they have been bought out by the oil companies.

Not only that... You can't put a V4 on this heavy car. I'm fairly sure this will be 3400+ lbs and will just be too sluggish with a V4.

Edited by -Camaro-
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Not only that... You can't put a V4 on this heavy car. I'm fairly sure this will be 3400+ lbs and will just be too sluggish with a V4.

I4 not V4 :AH-HA_wink:

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This is the most non news there has been on the Camaro.

Chevy from the start has been ready to make the V6 the prime car that was going to account for 70%+ of the market. Mileage is only one part but they wanted a very affordable V6 that would appeal to most buyers and suit their daily driving needs.

Settlmire pointed out to me back in September that most people want and like the Camaro but not everyone wants a V8. The Mustang can bew proof of his statment.

Besides V8 sell with no promotion but if you have a quality V6 you need to teach people that a good 6 cylinder coupe is not a sin.

I wish people would drop the Muscle car tag as they have not built a real Muscle car for 38 year. To day they are perfromance cars as they are quick, they stop and turn ease. Muscle cars go fast in a straight line and hate turning and stopping. Besides most Muscle cars are not as fast as my V6 FWD V6 is today.

Today folks if it is a 4 cylinder, V6 or V8 theses are the good old days so look around, take it in and enjoy them.

Also Remember the 1988 Fiero GT was classed as a commuter car. Tags are all they are tags.

As for prices the average price of cars today is over $25K so this car even over 30K with a V8 is a bargin.

As for the CAFE, per Settlemire the rules are not fully set for CAFE yet only the 35 MPG standard. GM and the others are waiting for the full list of reg to be written. The MFG are not hjappy with the delay and this is why we have holds on several programs. I am sure they will cave in some areas as that are what they pay people to lobby for. Also after the elections it will be save to cave as not to lose the green vote.

Even Rick W has stated that even though the 3 canidates all think states should be able to set their own standard e felt they would pass that as with the economy being weak it would be a poor move to not only hurt our auto industry but also hurt the recover of the economy.

Yes there will be changes in the future but the sky is not going to fall. We may have to do a few things differently but we will adapt as we have in the past.

The V8 will be around just not as big in a lighter car. Heck for year the Ferrari V12 was only around 5 Liters or less and the V8 was only 3.0-3.4 liters.

Edited by hyperv6
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The positive side of me is all for this.

The F4 Camaro was everything that this car will NOT be (thankfully) No one wanted a V6 Camaro back then and unless GM does something to up the appeal of the V6 and I4 options this time around, no one will want them either. Unlike Mustang, GM does not enjoy the luxury of such a wide fan base. The V6 Mustang can sell, no problem because the BRAND speaks louder than the car. The Camaro is the opposite; if the car doesn't perform, then it won't sell. Period.

So here is what I think GM is trying to do: 1) For the sake of CAFE and $$$, they are going to try to make the Camaro appeal to more than just diehard Camaro fans. This is an absolute must to ensure the future of the product. Therefore, the Camaro has to be very well rounded, unlike the F4. 2) They are trying to "build" an image for the Camaro name. The Corvette stands alone and I think that is ultimately the goal for the Camaro as well. In order to do that, they need to attract a diversity of people with different tastes and desires. They could be doing this for a number of reasons; the first is obviously to make the car stand out ala Corvette, the second is to establish it as the new 'top' affordable Chevrolet coupe (Malibu or Impala, especially if it were Zeta as well, would occupy the sedan side) as the Corvette goes up market (ZR1 and the rumored mid engined versions and Cadillac wanting a Cien are enough to establish debate over this) third, they're positioning the Camaro to compete with BMW as well as the Mustang so as to negate the need for a GTO coupe (killing 2 birds with one stone) which would also make a better business case for a Buick Zeta coupe and fourth = exports. 3) They are marketing the V8 to older, better established clients. You know the people who remember the original Camaro, are more likely to have the $$$ to buy it and who are not going to be "conditioned" into 4 cylinders and V6s.

I think this is a wise move that was probably a part of the plan from the start. Lets face it; the Camaro will NEVER be what the Mustang is. So why not try to position the car (with it's more potent/expensive platform) a bit up from the Mustang to attract MORE buyers.

I'm all for options and not everyone needs a V8 car. Just so long as I and enthusiasts like me can buy our V8, we'll be fine.

The negative side of me says that they're trying to kill the car and Zeta in general. They're going to horribly f*ck up the business case, let it sit on the market for 2-3 years, then call the whole thing off with the excuse that "Well, we made true on our promise to the enthusiasts, but they didn't bite." Sounds eerily similar to the SSR, no?

Maybe they'll wind the Camaro down like this, just kill the G8 slowly and cancel all of the other Zeta cars.

*** I hope my positive side is right.

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This is the most non news there has been on the Camaro.

Chevy from the start has been ready to make the V6 the prime car that was going to account for 70%+ of the market. Mileage is only one part but they wanted a very affordable V6 that would appeal to most buyers and suit their daily driving needs.

Settlmire pointed out to me back in September that most people want and like the Camaro but not everyone wants a V8. The Mustang can bew proof of his statment.

Besides V8 sell with no promotion but if you have a quality V6 you need to teach people that a good 6 cylinder coupe is not a sin.

I wish people would drop the Muscle car tag as they have not built a real Muscle car for 38 year. To day they are perfromance cars as they are quick, they stop and turn ease. Muscle cars go fast in a straight line and hate turning and stopping. Besides most Muscle cars are not as fast as my V6 FWD V6 is today.

Today folks if it is a 4 cylinder, V6 or V8 theses are the good old days so look around, take it in and enjoy them.

Also Remember the 1988 Fiero GT was classed as a commuter car. Tags are all they are tags.

As for prices the average price of cars today is over $25K so this car even over 30K with a V8 is a bargin.

As for the CAFE, per Settlemire the rules are not fully set for CAFE yet only the 35 MPG standard. GM and the others are waiting for the full list of reg to be written. The MFG are not hjappy with the delay and this is why we have holds on several programs. I am sure they will cave in some areas as that are what they pay people to lobby for. Also after the elections it will be save to cave as not to lose the green vote.

Even Rick W has stated that even though the 3 canidates all think states should be able to set their own standard e felt they would pass that as with the economy being weak it would be a poor move to not only hurt our auto industry but also hurt the recover of the economy.

Yes there will be changes in the future but the sky is not going to fall. We may have to do a few things differently but we will adapt as we have in the past.

The V8 will be around just not as big in a lighter car. Heck for year the Ferrari V12 was only around 5 Liters or less.

Cafe is just the 1st punch of the 1, 2, 3 punches. Punch two will start with CO2 regulations being adopted by Congress and signed by the new President. Speaking of the new President (punch #3), whomever becomes the next president, that president will impose even more restrictions on US Auto Manufacturers. Each candidate has said as much.

Rumors are that GM will increase the cost of V8's on the Camaro so high, that virtually no one picks that option. How long after that until GM doesn't offer a V8 at all on the Camaro, stating it's not cost effective to do so, since no one orders it. GM can then claim it didn't kill the V8, the North American consumers did.

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Cafe is just the 1st punch of the 1, 2, 3 punches. Punch two will start with CO2 regulations being adopted by Congress and signed by the new President. Speaking of the new President (punch #3), whomever becomes the next president, that president will impose even more restrictions on US Auto Manufacturers. Each candidate has said as much.

Rumors are that GM will increase the cost of V8's on the Camaro so high, that virtually no one picks that option. How long after that until GM doesn't offer a V8 at all on the Camaro, stating it's not cost effective to do so, since no one orders it. GM can then claim it didn't kill the V8, the North American consumers did.

If I had a dollar for every rumor you've tried to pass off as a prediction on this board, I could've bought us a new server. (Zeta in general, the Camaro, the G8, the G8 ST, the G8 GXP, so on and so forth)

*IF* CO2 regulations are passed, then a V8 Camaro will be the LEAST of GM's worries. You might as well kiss our auto industry goodbye and I'm sure Congress and which ever of the three stooges that gets the presidency knows that.

Hell, if CO2 regs are passed, I would BET that they are passed to finally put a bullet in the head of Detroit once and for all.

Here's a rumor:

I predict that if PCS doesn't stop blatantly harassing certain members of this board (Since it's been warned once) it'll be banned once and for all. Doesn't mean that will come true, although it might be what I desire. Same goes for your rumors and desires.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Time to fight tooth and nail against the BS.

If all of that dark future comes to pass, then it really is all over and new cars will be of no more value to me.

There are other ways to deal with this than caving in to the crap.

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I predict that if PCS doesn't stop blatantly harassing certain members of this board (Since it's been warned once) it'll be banned once and for all. Doesn't mean that will come true, although it might be what I desire. Same goes for your rumors and desires.

With all due respect, I hope PCS stays here for years to come. I make it a point to read all of his posts, as well as those of thegriffon and Toyota.vs.GM.

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