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Chazman

Yet another Zeta bites the dust?

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GMI is reporting that the DTS replacement, Zeta Caddy, is dead. That would leave only Camaro, precariously on Zeta.

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thegriffon reported yesterday that Zeta and Sigma were going to be replaced by one RWD platform in the future. I don't have my hopes up that it ever comes to fruition, though, seeing as how Zeta has gone. Remember the G8 is Zeta, too.

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We still have the G8, which is selling at about 1400 a month now. I said a year ago that would be a sales bust, they'll be lucky to move 18,000 of them this year, probably will sell 15,000 next year, and it will fade like the GTO did. The GTO was a flop, and they repeated it, the car was never designed for our market.

Zeta isn't good enough for a Cadillac (or at least what a Cadillac should be). But with no flagship, STS and DTS soon going away, XLR probably going away, Cadillac is going to have CTS in 3 body styles, SRX (the FWD one) and the Escalade as their line up. They have become Lincoln, the brand is becoming as dead as Pontiac and Buick, with one competitive product and a lot of dated stuff with poor resale values.

Too many brands and models and no money. Cadillac in 5 years will just be a dressed up Chevy, struggling to compete with Acura, because GM is too broke to do anything different, sad.

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We still have the G8, which is selling at about 1400 a month now. I said a year ago that would be a sales bust, they'll be lucky to move 18,000 of them this year, probably will sell 15,000 next year, and it will fade like the GTO did. The GTO was a flop, and they repeated it, the car was never designed for our market.

Zeta isn't good enough for a Cadillac (or at least what a Cadillac should be). But with no flagship, STS and DTS soon going away, XLR probably going away, Cadillac is going to have CTS in 3 body styles, SRX (the FWD one) and the Escalade as their line up. They have become Lincoln, the brand is becoming as dead as Pontiac and Buick, with one competitive product and a lot of dated stuff with poor resale values.

Too many brands and models and no money. Cadillac in 5 years will just be a dressed up Chevy, struggling to compete with Acura, because GM is too broke to do anything different, sad.

Hopefully work will start again on Alpha, (currently on a 6 month hold), and that'll pump some excitement into Caddy's product line circa '12.

If I were a GM beancounter though, I'd be looking at the the Zeta/Camaro/Oshawa business plan about now and getting nauseous.

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There was never going to be a DTS replacement...

The next Caddies were/are going to be smaller......

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Hopefully work will start again on Alpha, (currently on a 6 month hold), and that'll pump some excitement into Caddy's product line circa '12.

If I were a GM beancounter though, I'd be looking at the the Zeta/Camaro/Oshawa business plan about now and getting nauseous.

Just in time for the launch of an all new 3-series. Cadillac on the first try has to build something better than the current 3-series which BMW has had 30 or so years to perfect, good luck to them.

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Just in time for the launch of an all new 3-series. Cadillac on the first try has to build something better than the current 3-series which BMW has had 30 or so years to perfect, good luck to them.

It's gonna be tough, no doubt about it. Who the heck knows, maybe t he Caddy Zeta got axed to pay for some Alpha developement work.

Edited by Chazman

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There was never going to be a DTS replacement...

The next Caddies were/are going to be smaller......

:thumbsdown:

I want my Big Caddy with a V8 and a Bench Seat.

Guess I'll be buying a lightly used 2010 or 2011 DTS instead of a new Invicta or Impala after all

It'll take years for the extra money spent in gas to catch up to how much less the car cost over a new Buick.

<_<

Edited by vonVeezelsnider

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It's gonna be tough, no doubt about it. Who the heck knows, maybe t he Caddy Zeta got axed to pay for some Alpha developement work.

But the 7-series didn't get the axe to pay for 3-series work. This is GM's problem on every brand, one thing is cut to pay for another. Zeta was originally delayed to get GMT900s out faster. They have too many models, not enough cash, and banking everything on trucks and SUVs 10 years ago wasn't a great idea.

There are 2007 used DTS out there for $23,000 and 05 STS sells for about what an 05 Accord sells for. Used Cadillacs are really cheap, a much better buy than a new Buick or Impala.

Edited by smk4565

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It seems like GM keeps wasting money on developing platforms only to abandon and neglect them. Sometimes I just don't understand what they are thinking. It seems like their indecisiveness results in a huge waste of development dollars.

I can see delaying the flagship sedan in order to prioritize development on the Alpha platform. Cadillac needs a RWD series of compact products (sedan, coupe, wagon) much worse than a new flagship sedan. The only thing is there wasn't any kind of announcement (that I'm aware of) stating this. All we heard is that the Zeta Cadillac program has been cancelled.

If GM is going to let Zeta fade away, I would at least like to see them continue to update/improve the Sigma platform and utilize it to underpin future Cadillac midsize-large cars.

I would also like to see GM develop a luxury retractable hardtop roadster for Cadillac based on the Kappa platform. Considering current market conditions, this car would be more appropriate at the moment than the Corvette based XLR.

I just hope GM doesn't intend on returning Cadillac to a FWD lineup in the future. The division will never be on par with the BMW/Mercedes luxury segment mainstays if it intends to do this.

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Just in time for the launch of an all new 3-series. Cadillac on the first try has to build something better than the current 3-series which BMW has had 30 or so years to perfect, good luck to them.

Why does it need to be better than the 3-Series? Sure, they should aim for that, but reality is that they most likely won't unseat the 3-Series at the top of the compact luxury market. Mercedes and Lexus have been trying for a while too and haven't been able to, but that doesn't mean the C-Class and IS aren't worth having. In my mind, they should aim for the 3-Series and judge success by being better than (the next) IS.

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Every day I have a little less faith in GM's ability to do things right.

Zeta is plenty good enough to be a luxury marque platform. Use more aliuminum and trims ome weight and you're all set, it's already an excllent handling car.

smk, the G8 is doing poorly because of the market condditions, not because it isn't an excellent product. I agree that it was stupid of GM to delay Zeta so they could move the GMT900's up...that's worked out real well for them.

If nothing else, a version of Sigma that's enlarged and updated should be used to replaced the STS/DTS. The platform is already excellent in the CTS, so it's certainly not outdated.

Certainly a smaller Alpha Cadillac should be prioritized, but a larger one to compete with teh 7 Series/S-Class/LS shouldn't be forgotten.

Edited by Dodgefan

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I agree that it was stupid of GM to delay Zeta so they could move the GMT900's up...that's worked out real well for them.

I agree with you DF on that the delay was not a real good idea, but you have to realize that GM did benefit (profit) by bringing out the GMT-900 trucks when they did. Assume GM didn't delay the Zeta and brought out the trucks this past Janaury? Would GM have capitalized enough on 6 months of GMT-900 sales? Probably not, and those 18+ months of sales before the gas prices increased aided in GM making some money off of that platform. What would have been nice is if the Zeta cars could have debuted alongside of the GMT-900s - now that would have been quite the surprise!

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I agree with you DF on that the delay was not a real good idea, but you have to realize that GM did benefit (profit) by bringing out the GMT-900 trucks when they did. Assume GM didn't delay the Zeta and brought out the trucks this past Janaury? Would GM have capitalized enough on 6 months of GMT-900 sales? Probably not, and those 18+ months of sales before the gas prices increased aided in GM making some money off of that platform. What would have been nice is if the Zeta cars could have debuted alongside of the GMT-900s - now that would have been quite the surprise!

They could have also not invested in 7 versions of the GMT900s... 10 if you count the LWB models and 12 if you count the HD trucks.

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They could have also not invested in 7 versions of the GMT900s... 10 if you count the LWB models and 12 if you count the HD trucks.

Yes, they pissed away untold development $$$ on the trucks and SUVs, right before the market for them fell off a cliff...brilliant. I can't believe no one saw that their wasn't much of a future growth potential for 5000-6000lb bloat beasts.

Edited by moltar

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Certainly a smaller Alpha Cadillac should be prioritized, but a larger one to compete with teh 7 Series/S-Class/LS shouldn't be forgotten.

I agree that Alpha should be Caddy's number one priority right now. But just so you know, the DTS replacement was not envisioned as a 7/S competitor, it would have filled the same segment as the current DTS.

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I agree that Alpha should be Caddy's number one priority right now. But just so you know, the DTS replacement was not envisioned as a 7/S competitor, it would have filled the same segment as the current DTS.

If the CTS is closer to the size of the 5 series then it competes with the 5 series, the next car up in size is the STS/DTS for Caddy and the 7-Series for BMW. That's the logic I'm going with.

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Yes, they pissed away untold development $$$ on the trucks and SUVs, right before the market for them fell off a cliff...brilliant. I can't believe no one saw that their wasn't much of a future growth potential for 5000-6000lb bloat beasts.

+1

Chris

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If the CTS is closer to the size of the 5 series then it competes with the 5 series, the next car up in size is the STS/DTS for Caddy and the 7-Series for BMW. That's the logic I'm going with.

Yeah, size-wise but not segment-wise. It would not have been as premium as the 7/S. It would have been priced in the $40-$55K range.

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But the 7-series didn't get the axe to pay for 3-series work. This is GM's problem on every brand, one thing is cut to pay for another. Zeta was originally delayed to get GMT900s out faster. They have too many models, not enough cash, and banking everything on trucks and SUVs 10 years ago wasn't a great idea.

There are 2007 used DTS out there for $23,000 and 05 STS sells for about what an 05 Accord sells for. Used Cadillacs are really cheap, a much better buy than a new Buick or Impala.

Don't kid yourself, the same deals you speak of can be found on ANY european luxury mark.

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Yeah, size-wise but not segment-wise. It would not have been as premium as the 7/S. It would have been priced in the $40-$55K range.

If it was executed as well as the current CTS, then the price advantage would make it even more of a standout in the large luxury sedan segment. A beautiful, well executed luxury sedan that costs significantly less than a 7-Series or S-Class would seem like a clear winner to most people (except to brand snobs who foolishly like to boast about how much they spent on their ride). I'm sure Cadillac has enough status to successfully pull this off; their only obstacle would be current market conditions that have made even the segment leaders (7-Series/S-Class) experience a slowdown in sales.

That being said, compact Alpha based products should still be considered the priority for Cadillac.

I do have a question: does this cancellation signal the cancellation of the proposed future Sigma-Zeta platform merger or is this just a single model cancellation for the current Zeta platform? I sincerely hope this action doesn't signal the end for the Sigma-Zeta platform merger. A combined Sigma-Zeta platform seems like such a promising start to creat some awesome future products for GM. If it is the end for Sigma-Zeta, then I hope GM is still committed to providing further updates/improvements to the Sigma platform to keep it alive for future Cadillac products.

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Yes, they pissed away untold development $$$ on the trucks and SUVs, right before the market for them fell off a cliff...brilliant. I can't believe no one saw that their wasn't much of a future growth potential for 5000-6000lb bloat beasts.

The problem year after year isn't the lack of economic forsight. The problem is that GM lacks follow through, if you started Zeta development finish Zeta development and sell it for all it has. If it made a go with 1.8T and 3.6DI V6's instead of V8's no one would have complained.

You just can't move forward when you are making turns at every corner.

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But the 7-series didn't get the axe to pay for 3-series work. This is GM's problem on every brand, one thing is cut to pay for another. Zeta was originally delayed to get GMT900s out faster. They have too many models, not enough cash, and banking everything on trucks and SUVs 10 years ago wasn't a great idea.

There are 2007 used DTS out there for $23,000 and 05 STS sells for about what an 05 Accord sells for. Used Cadillacs are really cheap, a much better buy than a new Buick or Impala.

At our Caddy store in Las Vegas, we sell '04-'07 DeVille/DTSs and CTSs like they are going out of style.

The new DTS and STS cars, however, are just about sale-proof. We sell new CTSs and Escalades. That's IT. (Last month we were the #1 CTS store on the entire west coast incidentally....)

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If it was executed as well as the current CTS, then the price advantage would make it even more of a standout in the large luxury sedan segment. A beautiful, well executed luxury sedan that costs significantly less than a 7-Series or S-Class would seem like a clear winner to most people (except to brand snobs who foolishly like to boast about how much they spent on their ride). I'm sure Cadillac has enough status to successfully pull this off; their only obstacle would be current market conditions that have made even the segment leaders (7-Series/S-Class) experience a slowdown in sales.

That being said, compact Alpha based products should still be considered the priority for Cadillac.

I do have a question: does this cancellation signal the cancellation of the proposed future Sigma-Zeta platform merger or is this just a single model cancellation for the current Zeta platform? I sincerely hope this action doesn't signal the end for the Sigma-Zeta platform merger. A combined Sigma-Zeta platform seems like such a promising start to creat some awesome future products for GM. If it is the end for Sigma-Zeta, then I hope GM is still committed to providing further updates/improvements to the Sigma platform to keep it alive for future Cadillac products.

I think that the "merging" is more just a next gen architecture more than anything else. AFAIK, it's still on for after 2015.

Did GM REALLY need to spend money on two large car architectures though? Kinda dumb.

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If the CTS is closer to the size of the 5 series then it competes with the 5 series, the next car up in size is the STS/DTS for Caddy and the 7-Series for BMW. That's the logic I'm going with.

Realistically, at our store, CTS is cross-shopped most with Lexus IS and ES G35, and C-Class. Never have I seen any comparison by consumers with anything in the 5-series/E-class segment.

Many of our customers are also older STS customers trading into the new CTS because of style.

Part of the problem is, now, for '09, a loaded CTS crosses the $50K mark......and a stripper is $38K. With GMAC's reduction in aggressiveness on leasing, that puts us more expensive price-wise, and lease-payment wise than the 3-series, C-class, etc. That's a big perception/pricing hurdle to overcome. If GM isn't careful, they are going to see the CTS popularity wane this year unless they stay aggressive in the market.

The "5-series size for 3-series price" marketing tactic simply doesn't work. People simply don't compare CTS to those cars. It is truly seen as a direct competitor to the smaller german/asian entries.

So, my opinion is that Caddy does need a larger, RWD car to replace STS and DTS......priced in the $55K - $65K range.

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if a lot of folks would be willing to get off their high horse and accept all of GM cars being on a front bias platform (except caddies and camaros and vettes) GM could build most of their stable of cars and stuff off very few platforms.

GM needs to commit to versatile front bias/all wheel optional platforms, maybe in 4 sizes.

the difference in quality of the vehicles made on these could be made up for with suspension specs. i.e. cheap shocks vs. expensive shocks plus magnaride or whatever.

As I was test driving the Aura last weekend it occured to me, 'this would be a killer platform for a right sized crossover'. But, we have lambdas (which are perfect size in their own regard) and theta, which is the equinox which makes for a good sized vehicle but GM has never got the equinox totally right.

then for example if the next gen impala and next gen 9-5 are built on say a larger epsilon platform, the impala obviously is not tricked out like the Saab would be. but you see what i mean. Toyota is gonna sell assloads of those freaky venzas and you think 'its a tall camry wagon'. So, why doesn't chevy have a 'tall malibu wagon'? we get the traverse, sure, but not everyone needs that much car. A 'tall malibu wagon' would compete with the edge and journey nicely i think.

even look at the compact segment. the cobalt is a small compact. a sentra is a large compact. Gm should have a platform where they can build larger and smaller compacts to compete across those classes.

i just hope GM continues to work on consolidating platforms where it makes sense and investing a lot in making each platform really good. I still don't think they are there yet.

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if a lot of folks would be willing to get off their high horse and accept all of GM cars being on a front bias platform (except caddies and camaros and vettes) GM could build most of their stable of cars and stuff off very few platforms.

That's been the reality for the most part for the last 25 years...GM has been predominantly a maker of mediocre FWD generics.

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That's been the reality for the most part for the last 25 years...GM has been predominantly a maker of mediocre FWD generics.

well, they just needed to make better platforms and keep them fresher

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if a lot of folks would be willing to get off their high horse and accept all of GM cars being on a front bias platform (except caddies and camaros and vettes) GM could build most of their stable of cars and stuff off very few platforms.

GM needs to commit to versatile front bias/all wheel optional platforms, maybe in 4 sizes.

the difference in quality of the vehicles made on these could be made up for with suspension specs. i.e. cheap shocks vs. expensive shocks plus magnaride or whatever.

As I was test driving the Aura last weekend it occured to me, 'this would be a killer platform for a right sized crossover'. But, we have lambdas (which are perfect size in their own regard) and theta, which is the equinox which makes for a good sized vehicle but GM has never got the equinox totally right.

then for example if the next gen impala and next gen 9-5 are built on say a larger epsilon platform, the impala obviously is not tricked out like the Saab would be. but you see what i mean. Toyota is gonna sell assloads of those freaky venzas and you think 'its a tall camry wagon'. So, why doesn't chevy have a 'tall malibu wagon'? we get the traverse, sure, but not everyone needs that much car. A 'tall malibu wagon' would compete with the edge and journey nicely i think.

even look at the compact segment. the cobalt is a small compact. a sentra is a large compact. Gm should have a platform where they can build larger and smaller compacts to compete across those classes.

i just hope GM continues to work on consolidating platforms where it makes sense and investing a lot in making each platform really good. I still don't think they are there yet.

I think this would work in conjunction with consolidating divisions. Right now GM has too many brands without well defined identities targeting the same portions of the market. GM shouldn't need Chevrolet, Saturn, and Pontiac to target the same affordable portion of the market. With the truck/SUV segment in a freefall, GM shouldn't need to install truck/SUV products into the lineups of Chevrolet, GMC, Cadillac, and Hummer. If GM is going to keep Saab, Buick, and Cadillac to target the luxury portion of the market, then GM needs to give each division a distinctive image and purpose. I think sorting out the corporation's perplexing multi-divisional pileup issue would help them solve how many platforms they actually need and how to use these platforms to implement each division's product strategy.

Edited by cire

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I never wanted a large RWD Cadillac. At least not yet I wanted a DTS replacement done right with a six speed automatic FWD 40K-55K sticker range and 300-325hp V8 that gets 24-25mpg (hwy) and looks great and I bet that would sell, to the faithful and new buyers alike. The STS should stay but grow in size and move up market into the 50-65K range. Then the CTS stays in the 35-45K range. Slot a BLS (FWD prolly) 27.5K-35K and you have a good car line-up. With the SRX/BRX, Escalade and XLR they would be fine.

Give Buick the Park Ave from China and give them a new Lucerne aka DTS. Invicta/Regal and a possibly a small sporty car GNX anyone? Along with the Enclave they would have a line-up.

As for Pontiac give them a new Torrent NOT GMC. Keep the G8 give a new Malibu based G6 (styled totally different) and a new G5 (aka Cruze) slot a G3 in below with the Vibe and Solstice you have a strong line-up.

As for Chevrolet bring out the Camaro and Traverse and give all GMT-900's six speed automatics already. Ditch the 4.3 Vortec for a more efficent motor but I don't know what.

GMC keep all the Denali line vehicles and move the segment-up market some more. Also keep the Aciada fresh and do not give them the next Torrent leave that to Pontiac. (So they have one SUV, they whined to get the Torrent so just make them happy from the start.) Some people want sporty SUV's case in Pontiac why the Torrent sells 3K a month!

Hummer kill or give them an H4 and H3 and call it a day.

Saab keep but make products actual Saabs no Trailblazer rebadges.

Saturn kill them because even with a new line-up they aren't selling at all. Pontiac has an old line-up and sells really strongly still. Buy out the dealers lord knows I don't have one within 50 miles of my house. It is way cheaper to buy out Saturn, Saab or Hummer than it is Pontiac and GMC like many around here think they should do. This brands are relatively new and have no following and heritage like BPG does. Simple really. Someone needs to have the guts to do it. I would.

Edited by gm4life

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I never wanted a large RWD Cadillac. At least not yet I wanted a DTS replacement done right with a six speed automatic FWD 40K-55K sticker range and 300-325hp V8 that gets 24-25mpg (hwy) and looks great and I bet that would sell, to the faithful and new buyers alike.

I can't imagine much of a market for a 55k FWD car...FWD is fine for subcompact, compact economy cars and midsize family sedans, but inapropriate for luxury cars beyond the entry level.

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I can't imagine much of a market for a 55k FWD car...FWD is fine for subcompact, compact economy cars and midsize family sedans, but inapropriate for luxury cars beyond the entry level.

Why? Because anything above 40k has to be able to lap Nurburgring right with the Cobalt SS?

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Why? Because anything above 40k has to be able to lap Nurburgring right with the Cobalt SS?

If Cadillac wants to compete in the big leagues, they need RWD sedans. FWD is for small cars, midsize sedans, and the occasional entry-lux (TL, ES). Not big league luxury cars.

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Why? Because anything above 40k has to be able to lap Nurburgring right with the Cobalt SS?

Well lets see..the RL is FWD/AWD, let me know how it stacks up against the sales of the RWD 7-Series or S Class.

To be taken seriously, it has to be RWD, the proportions alone lend a far more premium look and feel.

Edited by Dodgefan

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Well lets see..the RL is FWD/AWD, let me know how it stacks up against the sales of the RWD 7-Series or S Class.

To be taken seriously, it has to be RWD, the proportions alone lend a far more premium look and feel.

The RL doesn't even stack up to the sales of used Seville STSes..... it's a non-starter.

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If a "full size" if only by modern standards, RWD Cadillac

product does not replace the DinosaurTS then I just do

not know WTF the deal is over at Cadillac.

As far as the weight issue, show me a V8 RWD sedan

in production today that is considerably lighter than

the Zeta-G8... everything is getting super-heavy... We

have been beating this issue to death, the problem, for

the millionth time is all the safety equiptment that our

safety-crazy society warrants as MUST-HAVE, and to

a lesser degree but relevant nonetheless are all the

electronic gizmos that all you new-car lovers adore.

I myself would rather have a Gen5 Camaro with no

radio, AC or power windows and pay the same price if

only it were a true hardtop.... it would still be lighter.

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I can't imagine much of a market for a 55k FWD car...FWD is fine for subcompact, compact economy cars and midsize family sedans, but inapropriate for luxury cars beyond the entry level.

I think it is insane to pay a dollar over $23,000 for a FWD car...

regardless of drivetrain or performance.

FWD just plain sucks. Always has always will.

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As for Chevrolet bring out the Camaro and Traverse and give all GMT-900's six speed automatics already. Ditch the 4.3 Vortec for a more efficent motor but I don't know what.

How about the excellent Atlas I6 that GM has only used sparingly?

This killing of the Zetas is complete financial nonsense, and the indecision is irritating.

Edited by DetroitNut90

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If Cadillac wants to compete in the big leagues, they need RWD sedans. FWD is for small cars, midsize sedans, and the occasional entry-lux (TL, ES). Not big league luxury cars.

:shrug: Audi A6?

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I think Buick is the brand that should handle FWD luxury cars. The LWB Epsilon II LaCrosse replacement (hopefully christened "Invicta") should be the flagship sedan. A SWB Epsilon II compact sedan should slot in below it in the lineup. A LWB Epsilon II Riviera coupe and a SWB Epsilon II compact coupe should also be added to the lineup. The Enclave and a Theta based Rendezvous crossover would complete the lineup.

Cadillac would have an all RWD lineup. A compact RWD sedan, coupe, and wagon series based on the Alpha platform,a midsize sedan, coupe, and wagon series based on Sigma (or Sigma-Zeta in the future maybe?), a fullsize flagship sedan based on Sigma (or Sigma-Zeta in the future?), a luxury retractable hardtop roadster based on Kappa, and the XLR flagship retractable hardtop roadster based on the Corvette platform would be all that Cadillac would need for a well rounded top-tier luxury lineup.

Then GM should combine Buick and Cadillac to complement each other in a luxury dealer network.

I do think there is a market for FWD luxury cars and Buick is the perfect brand to offer this type of product. The big question is will the corporate bean counters allow GM to properly build these products for Buick?

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It seems like GM keeps wasting money on developing platforms only to abandon and neglect them. Sometimes I just don't understand what they are thinking. It seems like their indecisiveness results in a huge waste of development dollars.

I can see delaying the flagship sedan in order to prioritize development on the Alpha platform. Cadillac needs a RWD series of compact products (sedan, coupe, wagon) much worse than a new flagship sedan. The only thing is there wasn't any kind of announcement (that I'm aware of) stating this. All we heard is that the Zeta Cadillac program has been cancelled.

If GM is going to let Zeta fade away, I would at least like to see them continue to update/improve the Sigma platform and utilize it to underpin future Cadillac midsize-large cars.

I would also like to see GM develop a luxury retractable hardtop roadster for Cadillac based on the Kappa platform. Considering current market conditions, this car would be more appropriate at the moment than the Corvette based XLR.

I just hope GM doesn't intend on returning Cadillac to a FWD lineup in the future. The division will never be on par with the BMW/Mercedes luxury segment mainstays if it intends to do this.

True that....

Even the platforms GM DOES go through with aren't utilized to their full potential... Lets not even talk about what a waste Zeta is turning out to be (Despite the fact that it could be used numerous ways... STILL

WHAT ABOUT EPSILON II? You know, we heard all of that :bs: about how Eps II could be "individualized" all of the way down to the angle of the tumblehome. Yet, now we hear that the next G6 will be nothing more than a rebadge of the Malibu... And to top it off, the Insignia already looks TOO similar to the Malibu and will be DOUBLED as well by the new Invicta.

Unbelievable... At this rate, maybe GM should just cancel ALL of their divisions and sell under the "GM" name.

And as far as the G8 'not selling'.... Well, it'd help if GM actually knew how to market the (ANY OF THEIR) effing cars.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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Afew things to consider:

1) GM is cash strapped.

2) The BIG money on the DTS replacement was not yet spent.

3) Big cars are not selling well.

4) The DTS replacement wasn't going to get a V8.

5) Right now, THE MOST IMPORTANT program Caddy could be working on is Alpha.

Maybe the plan here is to divert some or all of this funding towards Alpha. To be a global player - and even for better NA penetration, Caddy needs Alpha like yesterday. A family of Alphas. Sedan/coupe/convertible/wagon is what Caddy needs NOW. Not a large, 118" wheelbase, V6 sedan - with a dwindling buyer base.

Edited by Chazman

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The A6 is AWD.

Not all of them.

You can get it in FWD if you get the V6 engine. Not quite $55K though (maybe $50K at the most).

I know that even in Europe you can order the A8 as FWD 'cause it has a V6 available.

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I can't imagine much of a market for a 55k FWD car...FWD is fine for subcompact, compact economy cars and midsize family sedans, but inapropriate for luxury cars beyond the entry level.

I agree. They sold 2100 DTS last month, down 55% from the year before and the DTS is about 30% fleet sale. Year to date they have sold 18,000, that puts them at about 30k a year, they used to sell over 100k a year DeVilles, the market for big front drive cars is gone. Buick can sell a floaty front driver, Cadillac has to build cars for the future. Cadillac spent too many years building cars for the old customer base, and that base is now gone and the luxury market has changed.

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Not all of them.

You can get it in FWD if you get the V6 engine. Not quite $55K though (maybe $50K at the most).

I know that even in Europe you can order the A8 as FWD 'cause it has a V6 available.

Interesting..I knew in Europe they FWD models, but I thought in the US Audi was now all Quattro.

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If a "full size" if only by modern standards, RWD Cadillac

product does not replace the DinosaurTS then I just do

not know WTF the deal is over at Cadillac.

As far as the weight issue, show me a V8 RWD sedan

in production today that is considerably lighter than

the Zeta-G8... everything is getting super-heavy... We

have been beating this issue to death, the problem, for

the millionth time is all the safety equiptment that our

safety-crazy society warrants as MUST-HAVE, and to

a lesser degree but relevant nonetheless are all the

electronic gizmos that all you new-car lovers adore.

A full size rwd Cadillac would only have to be 2 inches longer than an STS. The 7-series and Lexus LS are that length. The current DTS is too large.

Jaguar XJ is 3,770 pounds, lighter than a base CTS, over 200 pounds less than a G8, and it is bigger than either car and has more equipment in it.

Although I agree that some of the safety stuff is overkill, it just makes for heavier cars.

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So, what exactly was this car to be?

Was it the car that would slot above the CTS effectively replacing both the STS and DTS (Since the CTS is basically STS sized anyway) or was it the 7 series competitor?

Maybe I'm biased, but I'm not looking forward to a Cadillac line up that's too small for me to fit in and that doesn't at least feature optional V8 powertrains (which is mistake #1... Cadillac is to be the standard, yet it can't have V8s?)

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So, what exactly was this car to be?

Was it the car that would slot above the CTS effectively replacing both the STS and DTS (Since the CTS is basically STS sized anyway) or was it the 7 series competitor?

Maybe I'm biased, but I'm not looking forward to a Cadillac line up that's too small for me to fit in and that doesn't at least feature optional V8 powertrains (which is mistake #1... Cadillac is to be the standard, yet it can't have V8s?)

I don't like the idea of Cadillac not having a proper 4000+lb, RWD V8 luxury sedan larger than the CTS. The big league brands aren't likely to give up their V8 sedans... they can get rid of the Escalade, I couldn't care less for that nonsense, but they need a good, solid world-class STS replacement.

Edited by moltar

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I don't like the idea of Cadillac not having a proper RWD V8 luxury sedan larger than the CTS. The big league brands aren't likely to give up their V8 sedans...

I have a feeling that GM has something up it's sleeve with the new LS motors (next gen, that is)

However, I also have a feeling that they'll find some way to screw it up.

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this is just further prrof that GM is in far worse shape than any of us had expected.

sadly reality is, that they don't have a clue, let alone a plan, to drag themselves out of the mess they are in. There is no significant product right now or arrivng shortly that will make an impact. not one.

as for Cadillac - fast forward 2 years and what have you got? Cadillac with the CTS, and new SRX and old leftover STS, DTS and XLR or none of those 3, and the lame duck Escalade. (a lambda Cadillac is likely, but not too soon.)

Cadillac is going to end up like Buick and Pontiac, with only a few lines to sell.

Does everyone still thing that GM can keep 8 brands alive and kicking with sub-20% market share?

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I did. And I'm merely an armchair analyst not getting paid for his musings. How is it that a guy like me can do a little reading, a little thinking and understand, yet GM (and others) miss the trend entirely despite employing six figure "economists?" No need to answer the question -- I already know the answer. Here's an example of what I've written here. I was probably a little premature on the PBG dealer small sedan thing, but I still believe that's coming. There were other posts previously but they seem to be missing...

US Should Get Pursuit

The US should get the Pursuit.

I know, I know. Pontiac isn't about economy, it's about performance. Hear me out. The problem is that the US and rest of world are about to enter a permanent geology-driven energy crisis that will make the political energy crises of 1973 and 1979 look like blips on the radar screens. Google "peak oil" for further explanation. Within a year, Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealers will be howling for a low-priced, high mileage sedan as buyers get more practical. SUV and V-8 sales (even with DOD) will stagnate. GM should be working on getting a 1.8L (or smaller) engine available for the Pursuit (and Cobalt) that will get at least 30mpg in the city. P/B/G dealers will be grateful to have such an offering much like Buick dealers were to have Opels to sell in 1974. Speaking of Buick, this energy crisis may be the catalyst that finally kills Buick. Buick has neither enough prestige to attract the truly wealthy buyers whose buying patterns will be least affected nor the economical choices for the rest of us still buying cars.

This post has been edited by buyacargetacheck: Sep 1 2005, 10:26 AM

I can't believe no one saw that their wasn't much of a future growth potential for 5000-6000lb bloat beasts.

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Interesting..I knew in Europe they FWD models, but I thought in the US Audi was now all Quattro.

The A3, TT, A4 Cabriolet and base A6 are the only FWD Audis you can still buy. It seems a FWD A4 sedan/Avant would be a good way to lower the price and compete with the ES.

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Does everyone still thing that GM can keep 8 brands alive and kicking with sub-20% market share?

Yep...

They just need to STICK to a plan instead of wasting billions on plans that they abort half way through.

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The A3, TT, A4 Cabriolet and base A6 are the only FWD Audis you can still buy. It seems a FWD A4 sedan/Avant would be a good way to lower the price and compete with the ES.

I agree with you. It's strange that only one A4 bodystyle comes with FWD now... could it be a gradual phaseout?

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A full size rwd Cadillac would only have to be 2 inches longer than an STS. The 7-series and Lexus LS are that length. The current DTS is too large.

Jaguar XJ is 3,770 pounds, lighter than a base CTS, over 200 pounds less than a G8, and it is bigger than either car and has more equipment in it.

Although I agree that some of the safety stuff is overkill, it just makes for heavier cars.

The body of the XJ is also all-aluminum, if I'm not mistaken. According to autoaluminum.org, aluminum saves about 17% over steel, meaning a 4000lb steel car would weigh around 3320lbs.

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Yep...

They just need to STICK to a plan instead of wasting billions on plans that they abort half way through.

you've got to be kidding me.

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I agree with you. It's strange that only one A4 bodystyle comes with FWD now... could it be a gradual phaseout?

Well, the A4 cabrio is being replaced soon by the A5 cabrio...probably will be AWD only (I think the A5 coupe is).

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Well, the A4 cabrio is being replaced soon by the A5 cabrio...probably will be AWD only (I think the A5 coupe is).

That is correct.

Speaking of which, the A5/S5 is one of the sexiest new cars I've seen. I hope it doesn't lose anything in 'vert form.

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That is correct.

Speaking of which, the A5/S5 is one of the sexiest new cars I've seen. I hope it doesn't lose anything in 'vert form.

It looks great in the spy pics I've seen...same car from the beltline down. I love the A5 styling.

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Honestly if they sell 30K a year there is a market for them. And in the luxury car world 30K unit isn't bad. For Cadillac that is a solid performer. No it doesn't have the sales it once did the segment is getting smaller but there is still demand and merit for such a car. That is why Cadillac needs to keep it, and give it a CTS-ish redesign with a 6spd. automatic and a 325-350hp V8 with a wider front track and tires they would be set. How about an LS4 under the hood?

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The A5 is amazing in pictures, I haven't seen it in person yet. It may even be better looking than the 6er.

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The A5 is amazing in pictures, I haven't seen it in person yet. It may even be better looking than the 6er.

To me, it looks better than the 6 series. I was dissapointed by the 6 series bangled styling. Over the last few years, my interest in German cars has moved from BMW more to Audi....with the A8, A5, R8, etc, I'm really attracted to them more..

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I think the 650 is pretty good, but the M6 is amazing.

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That is correct.

Speaking of which, the A5/S5 is one of the sexiest new cars I've seen. I hope it doesn't lose anything in 'vert form.

The A5/S5 are both RWD.

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The A5/S5 are both RWD.

No. FWD/AWD, like Audis usually are.

Edited by moltar

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The RL doesn't even stack up to the sales of used Seville STSes..... it's a non-starter.

+1

Chris 8)

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To me, it looks better than the 6 series. I was dissapointed by the 6 series bangled styling. Over the last few years, my interest in German cars has moved from BMW more to Audi....with the A8, A5, R8, etc, I'm really attracted to them more..

The old E-30 style cars (the 80's era small BMW's) were way cool and I still want to find one and fix it up. However, I'm with you on the newer stuff. Audi just has its act together, and VW is really getting there.

Chris

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True that....

.... Well, it'd help if GM actually knew how to market the (ANY OF THEIR) effing cars.

Amazing that Astra for example is the best selling car in Europe but they can't give them away here...and it is a damned good car.

I really think the best of the new GM (Astra, Aura, Sky, Solstice, G8, CTS, Cobalt SS TC, HHR, Enclave, Outlook, GMT 900 et all) is awesome product. Gm has done a wonderful job with the product itself, now let us get it into the hands of people who have money and need cars.

Chris

Edited by 66Stang

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No. FWD/AWD, like Audis usually are.

No really, check again. The NG A5/S5 combo are RWD.

Just went to Audi's website. Both are AWD and RWD biased.

Edited by SingleStylish

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No really, check again. The NG A5/S5 combo are RWD.

Just went to Audi's website. Both are AWD and RWD biased.

RWD biased AWD is not the same as pure RWD. They are also available in Europe in FWD versions. Hell of a car nonetheless.

Edited by moltar

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The A5 is amazing in pictures, I haven't seen it in person yet. It may even be better looking than the 6er.

The A5 is a beauty IMO.

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The A5 is a beauty IMO.

Saw a black one today when I went to lunch..love the lines. Saw a silver-blue R8 as well... :drool:

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No really, check again. The NG A5/S5 combo are RWD.

Just went to Audi's website. Both are AWD and RWD biased.

Someone may have beat me to this.....but all Audi's, including the A5/S5 are front-wheel-drive or front-wheel-drive-based AWD.

With the A5 and S5 (and new A4) Audi, on the Quattro AWD models, the power split is about 40% front and 60% rear. In other words, normally, slightly more power is being directed to the rear wheels.

However, the vehicles are still based upon front-wheel-drivetrains.

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Someone may have beat me to this.....but all Audi's, including the A5/S5 are front-wheel-drive or front-wheel-drive-based AWD.

With the A5 and S5 (and new A4) Audi, on the Quattro AWD models, the power split is about 40% front and 60% rear. In other words, normally, slightly more power is being directed to the rear wheels.

However, the vehicles are still based upon front-wheel-drivetrains.

:yes:

Even the A8 is a FWD platform.

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