Chazman

Yet another Zeta bites the dust?

77 posts in this topic

GMI is reporting that the DTS replacement, Zeta Caddy, is dead. That would leave only Camaro, precariously on Zeta.

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thegriffon reported yesterday that Zeta and Sigma were going to be replaced by one RWD platform in the future. I don't have my hopes up that it ever comes to fruition, though, seeing as how Zeta has gone. Remember the G8 is Zeta, too.

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We still have the G8, which is selling at about 1400 a month now. I said a year ago that would be a sales bust, they'll be lucky to move 18,000 of them this year, probably will sell 15,000 next year, and it will fade like the GTO did. The GTO was a flop, and they repeated it, the car was never designed for our market.

Zeta isn't good enough for a Cadillac (or at least what a Cadillac should be). But with no flagship, STS and DTS soon going away, XLR probably going away, Cadillac is going to have CTS in 3 body styles, SRX (the FWD one) and the Escalade as their line up. They have become Lincoln, the brand is becoming as dead as Pontiac and Buick, with one competitive product and a lot of dated stuff with poor resale values.

Too many brands and models and no money. Cadillac in 5 years will just be a dressed up Chevy, struggling to compete with Acura, because GM is too broke to do anything different, sad.

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We still have the G8, which is selling at about 1400 a month now. I said a year ago that would be a sales bust, they'll be lucky to move 18,000 of them this year, probably will sell 15,000 next year, and it will fade like the GTO did. The GTO was a flop, and they repeated it, the car was never designed for our market.

Zeta isn't good enough for a Cadillac (or at least what a Cadillac should be). But with no flagship, STS and DTS soon going away, XLR probably going away, Cadillac is going to have CTS in 3 body styles, SRX (the FWD one) and the Escalade as their line up. They have become Lincoln, the brand is becoming as dead as Pontiac and Buick, with one competitive product and a lot of dated stuff with poor resale values.

Too many brands and models and no money. Cadillac in 5 years will just be a dressed up Chevy, struggling to compete with Acura, because GM is too broke to do anything different, sad.

Hopefully work will start again on Alpha, (currently on a 6 month hold), and that'll pump some excitement into Caddy's product line circa '12.

If I were a GM beancounter though, I'd be looking at the the Zeta/Camaro/Oshawa business plan about now and getting nauseous.

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There was never going to be a DTS replacement...

The next Caddies were/are going to be smaller......

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Hopefully work will start again on Alpha, (currently on a 6 month hold), and that'll pump some excitement into Caddy's product line circa '12.

If I were a GM beancounter though, I'd be looking at the the Zeta/Camaro/Oshawa business plan about now and getting nauseous.

Just in time for the launch of an all new 3-series. Cadillac on the first try has to build something better than the current 3-series which BMW has had 30 or so years to perfect, good luck to them.

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Just in time for the launch of an all new 3-series. Cadillac on the first try has to build something better than the current 3-series which BMW has had 30 or so years to perfect, good luck to them.

It's gonna be tough, no doubt about it. Who the heck knows, maybe t he Caddy Zeta got axed to pay for some Alpha developement work.

Edited by Chazman
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There was never going to be a DTS replacement...

The next Caddies were/are going to be smaller......

:thumbsdown:

I want my Big Caddy with a V8 and a Bench Seat.

Guess I'll be buying a lightly used 2010 or 2011 DTS instead of a new Invicta or Impala after all

It'll take years for the extra money spent in gas to catch up to how much less the car cost over a new Buick.

<_<

Edited by vonVeezelsnider
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It's gonna be tough, no doubt about it. Who the heck knows, maybe t he Caddy Zeta got axed to pay for some Alpha developement work.

But the 7-series didn't get the axe to pay for 3-series work. This is GM's problem on every brand, one thing is cut to pay for another. Zeta was originally delayed to get GMT900s out faster. They have too many models, not enough cash, and banking everything on trucks and SUVs 10 years ago wasn't a great idea.

There are 2007 used DTS out there for $23,000 and 05 STS sells for about what an 05 Accord sells for. Used Cadillacs are really cheap, a much better buy than a new Buick or Impala.

Edited by smk4565
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It seems like GM keeps wasting money on developing platforms only to abandon and neglect them. Sometimes I just don't understand what they are thinking. It seems like their indecisiveness results in a huge waste of development dollars.

I can see delaying the flagship sedan in order to prioritize development on the Alpha platform. Cadillac needs a RWD series of compact products (sedan, coupe, wagon) much worse than a new flagship sedan. The only thing is there wasn't any kind of announcement (that I'm aware of) stating this. All we heard is that the Zeta Cadillac program has been cancelled.

If GM is going to let Zeta fade away, I would at least like to see them continue to update/improve the Sigma platform and utilize it to underpin future Cadillac midsize-large cars.

I would also like to see GM develop a luxury retractable hardtop roadster for Cadillac based on the Kappa platform. Considering current market conditions, this car would be more appropriate at the moment than the Corvette based XLR.

I just hope GM doesn't intend on returning Cadillac to a FWD lineup in the future. The division will never be on par with the BMW/Mercedes luxury segment mainstays if it intends to do this.

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Just in time for the launch of an all new 3-series. Cadillac on the first try has to build something better than the current 3-series which BMW has had 30 or so years to perfect, good luck to them.

Why does it need to be better than the 3-Series? Sure, they should aim for that, but reality is that they most likely won't unseat the 3-Series at the top of the compact luxury market. Mercedes and Lexus have been trying for a while too and haven't been able to, but that doesn't mean the C-Class and IS aren't worth having. In my mind, they should aim for the 3-Series and judge success by being better than (the next) IS.

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Every day I have a little less faith in GM's ability to do things right.

Zeta is plenty good enough to be a luxury marque platform. Use more aliuminum and trims ome weight and you're all set, it's already an excllent handling car.

smk, the G8 is doing poorly because of the market condditions, not because it isn't an excellent product. I agree that it was stupid of GM to delay Zeta so they could move the GMT900's up...that's worked out real well for them.

If nothing else, a version of Sigma that's enlarged and updated should be used to replaced the STS/DTS. The platform is already excellent in the CTS, so it's certainly not outdated.

Certainly a smaller Alpha Cadillac should be prioritized, but a larger one to compete with teh 7 Series/S-Class/LS shouldn't be forgotten.

Edited by Dodgefan
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I agree that it was stupid of GM to delay Zeta so they could move the GMT900's up...that's worked out real well for them.

I agree with you DF on that the delay was not a real good idea, but you have to realize that GM did benefit (profit) by bringing out the GMT-900 trucks when they did. Assume GM didn't delay the Zeta and brought out the trucks this past Janaury? Would GM have capitalized enough on 6 months of GMT-900 sales? Probably not, and those 18+ months of sales before the gas prices increased aided in GM making some money off of that platform. What would have been nice is if the Zeta cars could have debuted alongside of the GMT-900s - now that would have been quite the surprise!

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I agree with you DF on that the delay was not a real good idea, but you have to realize that GM did benefit (profit) by bringing out the GMT-900 trucks when they did. Assume GM didn't delay the Zeta and brought out the trucks this past Janaury? Would GM have capitalized enough on 6 months of GMT-900 sales? Probably not, and those 18+ months of sales before the gas prices increased aided in GM making some money off of that platform. What would have been nice is if the Zeta cars could have debuted alongside of the GMT-900s - now that would have been quite the surprise!

They could have also not invested in 7 versions of the GMT900s... 10 if you count the LWB models and 12 if you count the HD trucks.

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They could have also not invested in 7 versions of the GMT900s... 10 if you count the LWB models and 12 if you count the HD trucks.

Yes, they pissed away untold development $$$ on the trucks and SUVs, right before the market for them fell off a cliff...brilliant. I can't believe no one saw that their wasn't much of a future growth potential for 5000-6000lb bloat beasts.

Edited by moltar
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Certainly a smaller Alpha Cadillac should be prioritized, but a larger one to compete with teh 7 Series/S-Class/LS shouldn't be forgotten.

I agree that Alpha should be Caddy's number one priority right now. But just so you know, the DTS replacement was not envisioned as a 7/S competitor, it would have filled the same segment as the current DTS.

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I agree that Alpha should be Caddy's number one priority right now. But just so you know, the DTS replacement was not envisioned as a 7/S competitor, it would have filled the same segment as the current DTS.

If the CTS is closer to the size of the 5 series then it competes with the 5 series, the next car up in size is the STS/DTS for Caddy and the 7-Series for BMW. That's the logic I'm going with.

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Yes, they pissed away untold development $$$ on the trucks and SUVs, right before the market for them fell off a cliff...brilliant. I can't believe no one saw that their wasn't much of a future growth potential for 5000-6000lb bloat beasts.

+1

Chris

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If the CTS is closer to the size of the 5 series then it competes with the 5 series, the next car up in size is the STS/DTS for Caddy and the 7-Series for BMW. That's the logic I'm going with.

Yeah, size-wise but not segment-wise. It would not have been as premium as the 7/S. It would have been priced in the $40-$55K range.

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But the 7-series didn't get the axe to pay for 3-series work. This is GM's problem on every brand, one thing is cut to pay for another. Zeta was originally delayed to get GMT900s out faster. They have too many models, not enough cash, and banking everything on trucks and SUVs 10 years ago wasn't a great idea.

There are 2007 used DTS out there for $23,000 and 05 STS sells for about what an 05 Accord sells for. Used Cadillacs are really cheap, a much better buy than a new Buick or Impala.

Don't kid yourself, the same deals you speak of can be found on ANY european luxury mark.

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Yeah, size-wise but not segment-wise. It would not have been as premium as the 7/S. It would have been priced in the $40-$55K range.

If it was executed as well as the current CTS, then the price advantage would make it even more of a standout in the large luxury sedan segment. A beautiful, well executed luxury sedan that costs significantly less than a 7-Series or S-Class would seem like a clear winner to most people (except to brand snobs who foolishly like to boast about how much they spent on their ride). I'm sure Cadillac has enough status to successfully pull this off; their only obstacle would be current market conditions that have made even the segment leaders (7-Series/S-Class) experience a slowdown in sales.

That being said, compact Alpha based products should still be considered the priority for Cadillac.

I do have a question: does this cancellation signal the cancellation of the proposed future Sigma-Zeta platform merger or is this just a single model cancellation for the current Zeta platform? I sincerely hope this action doesn't signal the end for the Sigma-Zeta platform merger. A combined Sigma-Zeta platform seems like such a promising start to creat some awesome future products for GM. If it is the end for Sigma-Zeta, then I hope GM is still committed to providing further updates/improvements to the Sigma platform to keep it alive for future Cadillac products.

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Yes, they pissed away untold development $$$ on the trucks and SUVs, right before the market for them fell off a cliff...brilliant. I can't believe no one saw that their wasn't much of a future growth potential for 5000-6000lb bloat beasts.

The problem year after year isn't the lack of economic forsight. The problem is that GM lacks follow through, if you started Zeta development finish Zeta development and sell it for all it has. If it made a go with 1.8T and 3.6DI V6's instead of V8's no one would have complained.

You just can't move forward when you are making turns at every corner.

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But the 7-series didn't get the axe to pay for 3-series work. This is GM's problem on every brand, one thing is cut to pay for another. Zeta was originally delayed to get GMT900s out faster. They have too many models, not enough cash, and banking everything on trucks and SUVs 10 years ago wasn't a great idea.

There are 2007 used DTS out there for $23,000 and 05 STS sells for about what an 05 Accord sells for. Used Cadillacs are really cheap, a much better buy than a new Buick or Impala.

At our Caddy store in Las Vegas, we sell '04-'07 DeVille/DTSs and CTSs like they are going out of style.

The new DTS and STS cars, however, are just about sale-proof. We sell new CTSs and Escalades. That's IT. (Last month we were the #1 CTS store on the entire west coast incidentally....)

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