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Let GM Die - from your friends at Yahoo!


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One thing I find funny about the internet - it gives me a chance to find all of the douche bags of the world and watch them open their word holes and have diarrhea come pouring out at just the click of my mouse. All from the comfort of my own home! :lol:

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/artic...,yhoo,msft,goog

Edited by gmcbob
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This makes me wonder about something? Are GM's media and PR people totally asleep at the wheel? GM needs to really get serious, especially on the Coasts, about sucking up to these types of people at companies like Yahoo!, Google Reuters, Wall St Journal, Forbes, LA Times, etc, etc - because they're clearly doing a terrible job of it. I'd be willing to bet that if GM's media relations folks had better relationships with those companies, we wouldn't see this kind of sh*t floating around out in cyberspace for the whole car buying public to soak into their tender little brains.

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LMMFAO....

This country is falling faster than a 747 without engines and this is the lackadaisical response we get from the average 'analyst' and 'economist'

It's almost as if they're either too naive or too careless to see the writing on the wall.

Yep... Let GM die... Then I'll get my rocks off laughing as this country dies and all of the ignorant people that keep screaming "The sky is falling, but it's too late to save us" see their mortgaged to the hilt, foreign car fortress, 'educated' world collapse

Seriously... If GM is to die and companies such as Budweiser can be had so cheap and easy that we don't even fight; where do you think the rest of this country is headed? SERVITUDE and RUIN, that's where.

But keep laughing it up america, I know I am!

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Gotta love sensationalism! "Let GM Die", what a title.

What is accomplished by this interview? I didn't really take away anything insightful or thought invoking from it. That guy sure seemed happy to yammer on though. Why is he talking again?

And that Yahoo employee needs to stop pretending like she didn't just graduate from college with a general studies degree and this is her first job.

"GE... err GM, oops, what's the difference? *giggle*giggle*"

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And that Yahoo employee needs to stop pretending like she didn't just graduate from college with a general studies degree and this is her first job.

"GE... err GM, oops, what's the difference? *giggle*giggle*"

I noticed that too... She had the same mannerisms as that sorority slut I had a good time with last weekend.... But then again, most of those people are the business men and women of tomorrow!!! :rolleyes:

"Like, Oh.. My.. God... GE has, like, had so many chances... Err, I mean GM, I mean..."

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I noticed that too... She had the same mannerisms as that sorority slut I had a good time with last weekend.... But then again, most of those people are the business men and women of tomorrow!!! :rolleyes:

"Like, Oh.. My.. God... GE has, like, had so many chances... Err, I mean GM, I mean..."

Hahahaha!

This was so amateurish and silly I just couldn't believe what I was watching.

I didn't see totally eye to eye with my late Dad (ex GM management BTW) on too many things, but he was right about one thing he used to say all the time; "we're turning into a nation of ass holes". :rotflmao:

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LMMFAO....

This country is falling faster than a 747 without engines and this is the lackadaisical response we get from the average 'analyst' and 'economist'

It's almost as if they're either too naive or too careless to see the writing on the wall.

Yep... Let GM die... Then I'll get my rocks off laughing as this country dies and all of the ignorant people that keep screaming "The sky is falling, but it's too late to save us" see their mortgaged to the hilt, foreign car fortress, 'educated' world collapse

Seriously... If GM is to die and companies such as Budweiser can be had so cheap and easy that we don't even fight; where do you think the rest of this country is headed? SERVITUDE and RUIN, that's where.

But keep laughing it up america, I know I am!

And with that- I have to agree with FOG....

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Hahahaha!

This was so amateurish and silly I just couldn't believe what I was watching.

I didn't see totally eye to eye with my late Dad (ex GM management BTW) on too many things, but he was right about one thing he used to say all the time; "we're turning into a nation of ass holes". :rotflmao:

:yes:

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I've got a memo for this Sarah Lacy:

"Ms. Sarah Lacy, what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

:smilewide:

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LOL

EVERYBODY has an opinion. Some go with the grain, some go against the grain, depends on which way your grain lies.... :AH-HA_wink:

I think there are some points that are made but it's still a "sky is falling" speculative article. Dumb, but there are crowds that just eat that stuff up. What do you do?

The domestics sure take a beating time and time again in the forums and in the media, no wonder people's eyes have strayed to the imports. The domestic crowd is their own worst enemies without even knowing it IMO.

Like I've said before, I'm most interested in domestic cars, and from experiences galore I don't think fondly of most imports.

An article on the internet written by somebody I have no idea about isn't going to change my mind that easily....

:AH-HA_wink:

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I've got a memo for this Sarah Lacy:

"Ms. Sarah Lacy, what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

:smilewide:

That *MIGHT* be a little overboard...?

:AH-HA_wink:

LOL

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LOL

EVERYBODY has an opinion. Some go with the grain, some go against the grain, depends on which way your grain lies.... :AH-HA_wink:

I think there are some points that are made but it's still a "sky is falling" speculative article. Dumb, but there are crowds that just eat that stuff up. What do you do?

The domestics sure take a beating time and time again in the forums and in the media, no wonder people's eyes have strayed to the imports. The domestic crowd is their own worst enemies without even knowing it IMO.

Like I've said before, I'm most interested in domestic cars, and from experiences galore I don't think fondly of most imports.

An article on the internet written by somebody I have no idea about isn't going to change my mind that easily....

:AH-HA_wink:

No, but it's called a self-fulfilling prophecy—articles such as this make it ever more difficult for GM to persuade people to buy their cars, until they have no choice but to shut down operations in North America. It's happened to other companies, and indeed other automakers, and there is no reason it can't happen to GM.

Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised if no-one at GM had ever heard of this b— until now. There are just too many would-be experts calling for GM's blood for PR to make any dent at all. GM's media relations is among the most open and broad-reaching there is. I understand that Toyota and now Ford (having poached Toyota's top guy) is far better at influencing the mainstream media, but GM has been superb at making life easy for new/social media, and encouraging fan sites such as C&G; of which there are a multiplicity thanks to all those brands and the company's long heritage.

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No, but it's called a self-fulfilling prophecy—articles such as this make it ever more difficult for GM to persuade people to buy their cars, until they have no choice but to shut down operations in North America. It's happened to other companies, and indeed other automakers, and there is no reason it can't happen to GM.

Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised if no-one at GM had ever heard of this b— until now. There are just too many would-be experts calling for GM's blood for PR to make any dent at all. GM's media relations is among the most open and broad-reaching there is. I understand that Toyota and now Ford (having poached Toyota's top guy) is far better at influencing the mainstream media, but GM has been superb at making life easy for new/social media, and encouraging fan sites such as C&G; of which there are a multiplicity thanks to all those brands and the company's long heritage.

While this Yahoo "news" is stupid and clearly not somebody who knows the business, the threat to the very survival of all of the Detroit 3 is VERY real.

The gloom and doom prognostications of every biz page are there for a reason, my friends. There is a genuine possibility that 1 or 2 of these 3 companies will not survive in a recognizable form. Much as the Enron implosion or Bear Stearns spectacle were front page news for weeks, an Icon such as GM (with its product front and center) will dominate with similar coverage--only multiplied 100X because there's a Chevy on every street corner--most Americans have no clue what Enron did or why they failed--but everyone's had a ride in a GM product.

Blaming the media is the lamest excuse in the book. Negligently destroying the Worlds #1 Carmaker should be judged far more harshly. The people running GM, the UAW & the Trade policy of this country are completely to blame. There would be NO stories if these institutions were run competently, and everyone reading this site knows that, whether they care to admit it or not.

Blaming somebody else for one's own problems has become an American obsession, which is killing this country. How about some personal and professional responsibility? Admitting it's my fault? In an organization with 500+ people, I never hear "I simply screwed up", only excuse after excuse.

If you want to identify what's killing this country, its the lack of ANY personal responsibility. The MSM is simply the newest boogeyman.

Edited by enzl
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Possibly is not probably, and far from certainly. In the securities industry, if someone profits from spreading news such as this, they can go to jail (perhaps you're all too young to remember Wall Street). An analyst doesn't necessarily profit, they should be paid the same no matter what they predict, but the media do profit, not from the damage they do GM, but from increased circulation—bad news sells, e.g. I doubt this piece would have made it here if it had said, "GM is facing tough times, but should weather the crisis;" which it probably will (although at great cost).

I can identify several critical things GM has done and still is doing wrong, from not selling Isuzu to International to not hanging on to Fiat; from bad product positioning (selling vehicles against competitors a segment smaller and at too low a price) to not firing PCS and others deliberately undermining the company, etc. etc.. I am not so arrogant to think that anyone could have done a better job overall, given the immense obstacles GM has faced, and which irresponsible journalism is only amplifying. For one thing no-one predicted the market to do what it has, not Toyota, which is laying off staff not just in the US but in Japan because they expected to sell a lot more trucks; not Kia, which is bring out a BOF SUV as the market is tanking; nor Mitsubishi, Ford, Mazda, Nissan, VW or Honda, each of which could have offered a modern, segment-leading subcompact (or two) even before GM did, but either gave up (Ford Festiva), arrived late with an eleventh hour upgrade to meet US standards (Honda), or have not shown up at all, despite doing all the preparation (VW has a subcompact, developed and even named with the US market specifically in mind [the VW Fox], but where is it? Still in Brazil). Where are the Mitsubishi Colt, Mazda2, Ford Fiesta, Suzuki Swift, VW Fox, Nissan Cube (GM's version will be here by the time Nissan's arrives) or Nissan Note? Where is the Toyota Corolla Verso, the Honda Stream, the VW Touran, the Mitsubishi Dion (and why in a booming segment Mitsubishi invented 25 years ago is their only current entrant stuck in Japan). Why isn't there a diesel Tundra (Toyota [or at least former parent Toyota Industries] already has a 4.5 L V8 diesel, even if it isn't as good as GM's will be) or a diesel Tacoma (and an even better 3.0 L 4-cylinder)? Things are going to be very tough, and if perceptions do not change in NA, it may never get better, but the technical ability and product portfolio is already in place to manage the transition to small cars. Indeed in many ways GM is in an even better position than Honda and Toyota, neither of which is even in a position to consider bringing a car such as the Beat to NA, and neither is in a position to replace V6 engines with an existing, 2.0 L DI Turbo 4.

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Guest aatbloke

With threads like this, it's little wonder barely anyone ever posts on these forums. It's the same old dross re-hashed under yet another sensationalist title.

Edited by aatbloke
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Possibly is not probably, and far from certainly. In the securities industry, if someone profits from spreading news such as this, they can go to jail (perhaps you're all too young to remember Wall Street). An analyst doesn't necessarily profit, they should be paid the same no matter what they predict, but the media do profit, not from the damage they do GM, but from increased circulation—bad news sells, e.g. I doubt this piece would have made it here if it had said, "GM is facing tough times, but should weather the crisis;" which it probably will (although at great cost).

I can identify several critical things GM has done and still is doing wrong, from not selling Isuzu to International to not hanging on to Fiat; from bad product positioning (selling vehicles against competitors a segment smaller and at too low a price) to not firing PCS and others deliberately undermining the company, etc. etc.. I am not so arrogant to think that anyone could have done a better job overall, given the immense obstacles GM has faced, and which irresponsible journalism is only amplifying. For one thing no-one predicted the market to do what it has, not Toyota, which is laying off staff not just in the US but in Japan because they expected to sell a lot more trucks; not Kia, which is bring out a BOF SUV as the market is tanking; nor Mitsubishi, Ford, Mazda, Nissan, VW or Honda, each of which could have offered a modern, segment-leading subcompact (or two) even before GM did, but either gave up (Ford Festiva), arrived late with an eleventh hour upgrade to meet US standards (Honda), or have not shown up at all, despite doing all the preparation (VW has a subcompact, developed and even named with the US market specifically in mind [the VW Fox], but where is it? Still in Brazil). Where are the Mitsubishi Colt, Mazda2, Ford Fiesta, Suzuki Swift, VW Fox, Nissan Cube (GM's version will be here by the time Nissan's arrives) or Nissan Note? Where is the Toyota Corolla Verso, the Honda Stream, the VW Touran, the Mitsubishi Dion (and why in a booming segment Mitsubishi invented 25 years ago is their only current entrant stuck in Japan). Why isn't there a diesel Tundra (Toyota [or at least former parent Toyota Industries] already has a 4.5 L V8 diesel, even if it isn't as good as GM's will be) or a diesel Tacoma (and an even better 3.0 L 4-cylinder)? Things are going to be very tough, and if perceptions do not change in NA, it may never get better, but the technical ability and product portfolio is already in place to manage the transition to small cars. Indeed in many ways GM is in an even better position than Honda and Toyota, neither of which is even in a position to consider bringing a car such as the Beat to NA, and neither is in a position to replace V6 engines with an existing, 2.0 L DI Turbo 4.

Firstly, hindsight is always 20/20, so I'm simply not going to harp on the endless things that GM has done to itself to arrive at this crossroads. Suffice it to say that if you or I failed like the mgmt at GM, we wouldn't have jobs---which cuts right to the core of how F*ed up things are at GM that this has been allowed to continue.

Simply put--Luck is preparation meeting opportunity. GM's lack of preparation for the economy faltering, the mortgage crisis, the gas price increases, the shift in consumer preference for cars, etc...(and the list is nearly endless) is why they're screwed. They weren't lucky like Honda because they weren't prepared! Period. No excuses are possible.

The possible failure of what was once the World's Greatest Company---an almost inarguable #1 in many respects--is incredibly newsworthy---and the premature obits being written is simply the natural result of this negligence, arrogance & myopic culture that has succeeded in nearly destroying a historically unparallelled company.

Sorry. This is simply chickens coming home to roost. Nothing more or less.

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With threads like this, it's little wonder barely anyone ever posts on these forums. It's the same old dross re-hashed under yet another sensationalist title.

+1

If GM is populated by employees that think like most of these guys, its no wonder things have gone so wrong.

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Arabic proverb: "A falling camel attracts many knives."

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+1

If GM is populated by employees that think like most of these guys, its no wonder things have gone so wrong.

It was related to the company, it was poorly done and in many regards, quite inaccurate and one sided, and I thought it would be interesting to see everyone's reaction to it. No more, no less. It's the same old BS in a different forum, but it's out there and it's kind of irritating to see.

This Yahoo! article (and the many like it floating around out there) should give GM's media relations people a huge wake up call. Despite the whys or the hows as to why GM gets so much negative attention, they should put "warming up to the media" very high on their list of priorities - because clearly a lot of the media, especially in the "left of center" world (read "Wired" Magazine for example) thinks that GM is an antiquated, slow moving mess with awful product and a complete lack of vision or direction. If GM can get a foothold into media outlets like Google and Yahoo!, etc, and get them to stop putting $h! like this out on the internet, then I think they have a better shot of selling Joe San Francisco Computer Programmer an HHR as opposed to a Scion. I'm being dead serious. I don't think GM really quite "gets it" when it comes to marketing their product to the right people. Like I've said a million times, GM does poorly outside of the Midwest and it shows big time in large markets like where I live. They MUST figure out how to correct his, and media relations is an incredibly smart place to start. The product is there really when you start thinking about it - but they need to get the rags on their side or they'll continue to be an easy target for these people.

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It was related to the company, it was poorly done and in many regards, quite inaccurate and one sided, and I thought it would be interesting to see everyone's reaction to it. No more, no less. It's the same old BS in a different forum, but it's out there and it's kind of irritating to see.

LOL!

Hit the Chrysler section in the "other guys" forum here at C&G, alot of threads that are one sided, poorly done, and quite inaccurate are posted there on a regular basis...

It's good for some of the C&Gers to get a taste of what I commonly post about there, maybe they can see it from the other side of the fence now....?

:AH-HA_wink:

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While this Yahoo "news" is stupid and clearly not somebody who knows the business, the threat to the very survival of all of the Detroit 3 is VERY real.

The gloom and doom prognostications of every biz page are there for a reason, my friends. There is a genuine possibility that 1 or 2 of these 3 companies will not survive in a recognizable form. Much as the Enron implosion or Bear Stearns spectacle were front page news for weeks, an Icon such as GM (with its product front and center) will dominate with similar coverage--only multiplied 100X because there's a Chevy on every street corner--most Americans have no clue what Enron did or why they failed--but everyone's had a ride in a GM product.

Blaming the media is the lamest excuse in the book. Negligently destroying the Worlds #1 Carmaker should be judged far more harshly. The people running GM, the UAW & the Trade policy of this country are completely to blame. There would be NO stories if these institutions were run competently, and everyone reading this site knows that, whether they care to admit it or not.

Blaming somebody else for one's own problems has become an American obsession, which is killing this country. How about some personal and professional responsibility? Admitting it's my fault? In an organization with 500+ people, I never hear "I simply screwed up", only excuse after excuse.

If you want to identify what's killing this country, its the lack of ANY personal responsibility. The MSM is simply the newest boogeyman.

Agreed 100%

I think the media is a huge problem for GM. However, GM continues to make itself vulnerable to pretty much every attack they've endured.

I was just telling my GF yesterday that I'm so very sick of fighting the fight for GM because of their 1 step forward 2 steps back shuffle... I mean, I'm all for flying the flag high when the company deserves it, and maybe even when they don't but I think circumstance dictates their predicament. But, when you're wasting development dollars on platforms, engines, models and plans that you're just going to dynamite 1 year later. And delaying cars that should've been here 3 years ago or engines that are needed now, I'm having a more difficult time being a GM fan everyday.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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I hate to say it but that is point of view the some of the media has about GM. Cut 'em loose. This would be a huge economic loss and would literally kill many small towns with dealerships, large cities and manufactoring plants, advertising and all alike. Think of the dealership revolt. It can't happen and it won't. Exactly why when I was talking to a "buyer" for the midwests largest Toyota dealership he said GM is not going anywhere. They have pretty good products but Hummer is dead and Pontiac is next. I disagreed with Pontiac and gave me reasons his point of view changed slightly. He said well if they get more small and sporty cars out they prolly will be okay. He said Toyota won't be making 2009 Tundra's and the plant will be retooled for the Prius for 2010. Then commented on how SLOW they were selling along with the Seq. He said Camry, Prius and Corolla models were selling great though. Trucks will become a need based market and Toyota will be hurting badly because of the investment they made in the Texas plant. I said an ugly Texas built Prius will be the day. He laughed as he knew if he sold GM I would buy from him, but if I need a used car I do check with him. Another example of great people working with/for an evil company I hate.

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Firstly, hindsight is always 20/20, so I'm simply not going to harp on the endless things that GM has done to itself to arrive at this crossroads. Suffice it to say that if you or I failed like the mgmt at GM, we wouldn't have jobs---which cuts right to the core of how F*ed up things are at GM that this has been allowed to continue.

Simply put--Luck is preparation meeting opportunity. GM's lack of preparation for the economy faltering, the mortgage crisis, the gas price increases, the shift in consumer preference for cars, etc...(and the list is nearly endless) is why they're screwed. They weren't lucky like Honda because they weren't prepared! Period. No excuses are possible.

The possible failure of what was once the World's Greatest Company---an almost inarguable #1 in many respects--is incredibly newsworthy---and the premature obits being written is simply the natural result of this negligence, arrogance & myopic culture that has succeeded in nearly destroying a historically unparallelled company.

Sorry. This is simply chickens coming home to roost. Nothing more or less.

GM is better prepared than you seem to think, the problem is that to a large extent, it doesn't matter how well prepared they are. As fir Honda, well the reason the Fit is now outselling the Aveo and Yaris is because they're the only ones with any left to sell. People weren't buying them before and now they have plenty left, while Chevy and Toyota do not. That is not good preparation, that is just dumb luck. The Malibu arrived just in time for the shift from trucks to cars and yet, nothing. Sales are still low compared to anything except last year's nadir.

The LaCrosse is still selling well for its segment, despite its age, keeping pace with the Avalon, MkZ, Passat and Maxima. If, like the new Maxima they can gain a modest boost with the new model, they will be doing well. Toyota meanwhile, may dump the Avalon for something more like the Hyundai Genesis and G8. After all the car (the new Toyota Crown) already exists and it will save on development costs, tooling and free up NA capacity.

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The LaCrosse is still selling well for its segment, despite its age, keeping pace with the Avalon, MkZ, Passat and Maxima. If, like the new Maxima they can gain a modest boost with the new model, they will be doing well.

With all due respect, I don't think anyone in the United States thinks that the LaCrosse competes with the Passat and Maxima. The only people interested in the LaCrosse are the rental cars companies, 3800 afficianodos like Trinacriabob, and elderly condo dwellers in Florida looking to replace their 1998 Century.

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GM is better prepared than you seem to think, the problem is that to a large extent, it doesn't matter how well prepared they are. As fir Honda, well the reason the Fit is now outselling the Aveo and Yaris is because they're the only ones with any left to sell. People weren't buying them before and now they have plenty left, while Chevy and Toyota do not. That is not good preparation, that is just dumb luck. The Malibu arrived just in time for the shift from trucks to cars and yet, nothing. Sales are still low compared to anything except last year's nadir.

The LaCrosse is still selling well for its segment, despite its age, keeping pace with the Avalon, MkZ, Passat and Maxima. If, like the new Maxima they can gain a modest boost with the new model, they will be doing well. Toyota meanwhile, may dump the Avalon for something more like the Hyundai Genesis and G8. After all the car (the new Toyota Crown) already exists and it will save on development costs, tooling and free up NA capacity.

First, check the numbers...the FIT is capacity constrained...meaning, Honda could sell more, if they were available. The Aveo (and lesser degree Yaris) have more inventory because, quite simply, they aren't in the same league...please check your facts before posting nonsense like that--you're simply so wrong and it completely undermines any other point you care to make.

The Malibu is hurt by the Impala sitting across the showroom floor as a better value to most Chevy customers. But the Malibu is a success, even if its not selling at Camry or Accord rates.

The LaCrosse has been a well built but mediocre product from the get...20% go to fleet and its been outsold by the 'horrible' Avalon this year--both as retail sales and total sales.

Again, the problem with this board is the blind enthusiasm that completely shields many here to the reality of the situation. It is dire--tragic, awful and potentially devastating. GM needs a dose of reality, not absurd platitudes that prevent the real work of rescuing GM from really starting.

They should have hooked up with Ghosn before...Kirk was right...Now its up to a bunch of Ren Cen retards to try and make money when they couldn't do it in a booming US economy. What are the odds of success, given their track record?

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I got quietly excited this afternoon, that in an uppety part of the city I saw a brand new Malibu LTZ - only to see the bar code stickers on the back door windows. I was slightly bummed. :alcoholic:

Edited by gmcbob
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First, check the numbers...the FIT is capacity constrained...meaning, Honda could sell more, if they were available. The Aveo (and lesser degree Yaris) have more inventory because, quite simply, they aren't in the same league...please check your facts before posting nonsense like that--you're simply so wrong and it completely undermines any other point you care to make.

The Fit is as outdated a product as the Aveo—more so. The new model can't arrive soon enough (this fall). While they were still building them (Japan and Europe are already producing the new model), they couldn't match the Aveo and Yaris in sales (a high price didn't help). If sales are restricted by limited inventory, then now they should be starting to fall off as inventories dwindle—they're not building any more 2008s after all. But no, instead they've shot through the roof!! That can only happen if Honda had plenty of inventory on hand. So no, someone obviously had more than enough Fits on hand. If we see sales plummet in the next couple of months, then yes perhaps after last month they're now running low. As for the Aveo, well a low price has helped keep sales growing even as competition intensifies, but supply problems have crimped GM Daewoo production, and GM can't get enough to meet demand. The Yaris too is in high demand, the sales leader all year, helped by great economy, but production has not been able to keep up and inventories are getting low, and sales actually fell last month, IIRC. All this has enable Honda to clear out the final 2008 inventory faster than expected. If they have another bumper month in August, then clearly there is not yet any shortage as there is of the Yaris.

Whether many Passat or Avalon buyers look at the LaCrosse doesn't matter, as far as segment comparisons go (obviously it does in winning and keeping buyers though). They are priced similarly for comparable specifications, are similar in size, and sell at similar rates. As far as sales go, the Avalon, Maxima and LaCrosse are the segment leaders, and the difference isn't that great down to the MKZ. Believe what you like, I have the data. Despite its age and continued reductions in fleet sales, it's held up well. The new model will do better, but in that segment sales of better than 4000 a month are very good. It will never be a volume model like the Century, but then neither will the Maxima or Avalon. That's one very good reason not to build a unique model just for the US market like the current Avalon and Maxima. Toyota certainly won't continue to do so, and they have no need to either, with a number of other midsize sedans sold more widely to choose from.

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Enzl may say this is the chickens coming home to roost, and he's right, but there is nothing Wagoner or Cowger could have or can do to change that. This situation was set up decades ago. The current management have done more in the last few years than anyone since Sloan. It will be a slow recovery. Very slow. Now, I would make some radical changes, particularly to pricing strategies, but it will not help sales, or in the near term, profitability. There are just too many people who will never, ever under any circumstances look at an American car, and especially a GM, no matter how good. It has become an ideological position, a matter of faith, not reason. Until all those people are dead and buried (and that is decades away), GM is doomed to eke out a meager existence in North America as best they can. Profitability is at least 18 months away, and they have a lot of work to do to repair brand image in North America (decades worth). But the most immediate and pressing problem is the crisis in confidence. This is a crisis which by itself can destroy GM—buyer confidence in the company, not the product, investor confidence, the confidence of the financial markets in GM. Reports predicting and recommending shutdown and bankruptcy in these circumstances are self-fulfilling—even a strong company can't survive such sentiment (9 out of 10 car companies fail because they can't refinance debt despite operational and financial success). Several companies in other industries have failed in recent months because of the current debt crisis—profitable companies with adequate reserves who simply could no longer refinance the debt they needed to keep operating. If GM can raise cash and refinance, well fine, they'll survive and eventually prosper again. But if confidence fails, battered by negative reports, they will fail, and it will all be over. Sales will collapse, funding will dry up, and the lights will go out. And it will have nothing to do with business fundamentals.

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Enzl may say this is the chickens coming home to roost, and he's right, but there is nothing Wagoner or Cowger could have or can do to change that. This situation was set up decades ago. The current management have done more in the last few years than anyone since Sloan. It will be a slow recovery. Very slow... If GM can raise cash and refinance, well fine, they'll survive and eventually prosper again. But if confidence fails, battered by negative reports, they will fail, and it will all be over. Sales will collapse, funding will dry up, and the lights will go out. And it will have nothing to do with business fundamentals.

One Generational Shift. 2028. There's the 'hope'. But every move GM makes will be scrutinized with potential conquest customers circumspect. GM needs a grand slam every time they're at bat. Should be doable with the UAW 'boogey-man' contained. The age of the informed, educated and discerning consumer is upon us. Except that generally, and in my opinion, the average consumer knows not sh*t from shinola.

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The Fit is as outdated a product as the Aveo—more so. The new model can't arrive soon enough (this fall). While they were still building them (Japan and Europe are already producing the new model), they couldn't match the Aveo and Yaris in sales (a high price didn't help). If sales are restricted by limited inventory, then now they should be starting to fall off as inventories dwindle—they're not building any more 2008s after all. But no, instead they've shot through the roof!! That can only happen if Honda had plenty of inventory on hand. So no, someone obviously had more than enough Fits on hand. If we see sales plummet in the next couple of months, then yes perhaps after last month they're now running low. As for the Aveo, well a low price has helped keep sales growing even as competition intensifies, but supply problems have crimped GM Daewoo production, and GM can't get enough to meet demand. The Yaris too is in high demand, the sales leader all year, helped by great economy, but production has not been able to keep up and inventories are getting low, and sales actually fell last month, IIRC. All this has enable Honda to clear out the final 2008 inventory faster than expected. If they have another bumper month in August, then clearly there is not yet any shortage as there is of the Yaris.

The Fit is not "outdated". Despite being old (2001 model) it is still at the head of its class against much newer vehicles. If the supply was there, it could probably go on another 2-3 years in its current form and become the sales leader for sub-compacts.

Possibly the reason it has nearly doubled in sales the last month may be because we are getting the last of the old model supply from other countries which are now selling the new one. Or there may be somewhere that is still producing the current model and we are now getting 100% of that supply. I know that Honda will produce the new Fit here as well, perhaps they have shifted some domestic production to the current Fit.

There is no argument against the fact that the Fit has been severely limited in supply since its US intro. I've never seen more than one or two on the dealer lot. Honda has stated before that it doesn't care if it is the sales leader, and it doesn't produce a model to achieve that goal. Matching or beating the Aveo and Yaris in sales is not important.

Edit: Also the Yaris and Aveo both have two models to the Fit's one. The Fit does have a sedan variant, but it probably won't be sold over here.

Edited by siegen
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There are definitely supply problems with the Aveo. I can attest to that. Every time we get a few in, they are gone. That is why GM is switching production to Mexico - to shorten the time lag between order and delivery.

I hope people realize they are looking at two quite diffent vehicles with respect to the Aveo: the sedan got a serious facelift in 2007, whereas the 5 door gets it for '09. I would agree that the interior 'look' of the 5 door Aveo is the weakest in that grouping, but the sedan interior is on par with the Fit and Versa. I guess it depends on whether you like a sea of light grey or a sea of dark gray. LOL

The Aveo automatic transmission has always been weak and I'd love to see GM put its own transmissions in that car. Not sure if there are plans for that yet. The mechanical tweaks to both '09 Aveos do address its other 'shortcomings' (power and fuel mileage), both of which will bring it up to snuff again with the competition.

Again, I don't feel GM has to have a home run with every vehicle it has on the lot. It only has to stop embarassing itself, like with the Uplander in '08. The '09 Cobalt interior has (finally) been upgraded and the LT package with the chrome door handles, etc. is downright beautiful - especially in black!

Import humpers will have orgasms with just about anything with an H or a T on the hood, so GM can stop worrying about those people and just keep doing the best it can with each new generation of small car. I see more and more people making the rounds of the dealers and analysing everything to death.

It is going to take years to overcome the perception the consumer has of Detroit, but of of one thing I am sure: they are a fickle lot. Give them a couple hot looking cars that are decently put together and they will forgive and forget.

Doom and gloom analysts will find something else to whine about, of that I am sure, too.

Oh, and stop playing nice guy and start touting GM's strengths.

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I'm placing my bet on GM and I put my money where my mouth is. I bought 240 shares last week. I'll buy another 250 or so if it drops back below $10/share.

As for our messed up country, to me, the problem is the last several generations have been raised with selfish, egotistical, nothing is my fault, the world should be handed to me, the government should bail me out (mortgage crisis) but not them (Big 3) attitudes. Sadly I am starting to believe the only thing that can/will fix this attitude is another Great Depression. No, I'm not kidding. :( We, as a nation, have been on top for so long that the only thing that will bring us around is getting knocked down a peg or two. It can't happen soon enough. I hate to see people suffer but if in the long run it makes us a better country, so be it.

Maybe GM or Ford filing for bankruptcy will tip the scales that way. :scratchchin:

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With threads like this, it's little wonder barely anyone ever posts on these forums. It's the same old dross re-hashed under yet another sensationalist title.

Tell the truth to shame the devil why don'tcha?

Toyota meanwhile, may dump the Avalon for something more like the Hyundai Genesis and G8. After all the car (the new Toyota Crown) already exists and it will save on development costs, tooling and free up NA capacity.

I'm all for it, but I have a clammy feeling they may choose to go with this ridiculous LWB Camry idea I've heard rumored.

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Tell the truth to shame the devil why don'tcha?

I'm all for it, but I have a clammy feeling they may choose to go with this ridiculous LWB Camry idea I've heard rumored.

Automotive News (which is free for anyone to look at this week at automotivenews.com) said that Toyota may be backing away from the LWB Camry idea and thinks it needs a product more premium than just the Camry.

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