CR Biased-No Not At All

[nyscene911]

Japanese automakers sweep U.S. rivals

Honda, Toyota, others snag all 10 top picks in Consumer Reports ratings

Japanese automakers achieved another milestone in the ongoing humiliation of their U.S. counterparts Wednesday as they captured the top positions in all 10 vehicle categories rated by influential Consumer Reports magazine.

It was the first time in the nine-year history of the respected annual survey that Asian nameplates swept the list of “best” automobiles, which the magazine selects from among a slate of more than 230 vehicle models based on a series of 150 tests, ranging from braking distance to crash ratings and fuel efficiency.

Historically, the Consumer Reports “Top Picks” list has been a blend of Japanese, European and domestic auto models. But this year the Honda Civic, the Infiniti M35 and the Honda Ridgeline all join the list as new entrants, while the fuel-efficient Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which was named the top midsized sport utility vehicle, became the second hybrid-engine vehicle to be featured as a top pick, joining the popular Toyota Prius, which was named the top vehicle in the green car category.

The Honda Civic was named the magazine’s top small sedan, while the Infiniti M35 was named the top luxury sedan. Vehicles from Nissan and Subaru round out the top picks in the magazine’s 10 auto categories.

Asian brands also fared best in the magazine’s survey of vehicle reliability. Toyota’s Lexus nameplate came in first, while the Honda brand was second and Toyota third. Ford’s Mercury brand was the only domestic nameplate to crack the top 10. An 8-year-old Toyota had about the same number of problems as a 2- or 3-year old vehicle from General Motors or Ford, according to the survey of the magazine's readers.

The dominance of Japanese carmakers highlights the difficulties facing big North American automakers, whose U.S. market shares is eroding as they struggle through massive and wrenching reorganizations.

James Guest, president of Consumers Union, the publisher of Consumer Reports, dismissed claims that the magazine is biased against American-made cars, pointing to a 2005 American Demographics study, conducted by Advertising Age, that found Consumer Reports to be the most trustworthy media outlet for consumer information.

“Let me set the record straight,” Guest said in a conference call with reporters Wednesday. “We have one standard, and it’s based on our rigorous testing and what’s best for the consumer. The bottom line is these cars won their place by beating the competition in all the test categories.”

While Asian carmakers continue to make the most reliable cars, overall car quality is declining, according to David Champion, director of automobile testing at Consumer Reports. The magazine polled some one million subscribers about 17 different trouble spots in their cars, and asked them whether they had serious problems with their vehicles in the past year, or had to take them to a dealer.

Consumer Reports also crunched numbers on readers’ experiences with 810,000 vehicles from the 1998 through 2005 model years.

The results showed Japanese and Korean brands had 12 problems per 100 vehicles, while U.S. automakers had 18 problems and European makers had 21 problems. Asian and U.S. automakers have been improving their scores, but appeared to stall in 2005, the magazine said, while European automakers’ ratings haven’t changed substantially in the last four years.

After Lexus, Honda and Toyota, brands rounding out the top 10 for reliability were Mitsubishi, Subaru, Acura, Scion, Mercury, Mazda and Suzuki. The 10 lowest-rated brands were Audi, Infiniti, Saturn, Lincoln, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Land Rover, Hummer and Porsche.

“Domestic vehicles have made substantial advances, Ford is doing better than GM and Chrysler, but new model launches are not as good,” Champion said, adding that one reason for the decline in reliability may be the rise in electronic features in cars. “We are seeing many more electronic features, and that’s the biggest trouble area readers tell us about.”

Reliability is what sells cars, Champion added, noting that if a car has to go back to the dealer in the final year of ownership, a buyer is less likely to purchase another car from that manufacturer. “But you’re more likely to go back if the car is reliable,” he added. “I still think that, going forward, domestic carmakers need to fix the problems with their current cars is to stem their decline in market share and catch up with the Asians.”

Last year, Japanese -brand vehicles were the top picks in nine of the magazine's 10 categories. Japanese manufacturers continue to fare well in Consumer Reports tests because they concentrate on redesigning their vehicles and improving reliability, said Consumer Reports automotive editor Rik Paul. “We’re not talking about [all] Japanese cars, but in particular Toyota and Honda — they build cars that are the whole package, so they rise to the top in our tests.”

Champion offered another theory for Japan’s dominance: “When the Japanese first came into the U.S. market their cars were not that good, but they had bulletproof reliability and that is what sold them,” he said. “Keeping reliability as good as possible is a huge priority to them, and they place a great deal of emphasis on it,” he said, adding that Japan’s background in the electronics industry may also help the durability of their automobiles. “The U.S. and Europe have lost a lot of that capacity.”

Japan’s Honda had the most winners in this year’s list of “best” automobiles, snagging top picks in five of the 10 categories. Besides the redesigned Civic, the Honda Accord was the top family sedan between $20,000 and $30,000 and the Acura TL was the top upscale sedan between $30,000 and $40,000. The Honda Odyssey was the top minivan and the Ridgeline, Honda’s first entry in the pickup market, was the top pickup.

Toyota and Subaru each had two winners, including the Subaru Forester for small SUV and the Toyota Prius for “green car.” Nissan had one, the Infiniti M35 luxury sedan, which the magazine called “an excellent balance of performance, comfort and handling.”

Consumer Reports names its top picks based on a series of tests, including evaluations of comfort, convenience and fuel economy, road and track tests, crash protection ratings from the government and insurance industry and readers’ reliability rankings.

The magazine’s list of top picks will appear in the annual April auto issue, which hits newsstands on March 7. The list can have a powerful influence on a vehicle’s reputation. Consumer Reports’ rankings are important to automakers, even though companies are not permitted to use the ratings in their advertising.

Consumer Reports spokeswoman Lauren Hackett said the April auto issue is consistently the magazine’s most popular, selling more than 300,000 copies at newsstands. That’s twice as many copies as its second-most popular issue, the November electronics issue.

Terrible writing, terrible study. Who would've thunk it? That first paragraph makes me want to throw up

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Consumer Retards biased? Why hell yes they are! The may not accept offers to put ads in the rag that they put out every month that I wouldn't even wipe my ass with, but Toyota and Honda definitly own them three ways from Sunday. Its disgusting.

Dammit, I really want to put someone's head over at Consumer Retorts in a nice gullotine.

[turbo200]

wth? where did this press release come from? I don't even want to be bothered reading the rest of it because of the use of the word humiliation sets such a negative tone.

[nyscene911]

Is it just me, or does that first paragraph REEK of unprofessionalism.

[nyscene911]

wth? where did this press release come from? I don't even want to be bothered reading the rest of it because of the use of the word humiliation sets such a negative tone.

MSNBC

and everyone can throw the author an email to point out his unprofessionalism.

[email protected]

Have fun

[sciguy_0504]

An 8-year-old Toyota had about the same number of problems as a 2- or 3-year old vehicle from General Motors or Ford, according to the survey of the magazine's readers.

Proof please.

[nyscene911]

Proof please.

The proof is in their loyal fanbase, fo course

[Paolino]

It's really disgusting.

[CaddyXLR-V]

It's only going to get worse. Do you think an owner of one of the unreliable POS cars according to CR, is going to keep their subscription? What if you own a perfectly reliable car, and every time you open CR they slam it for being an unreliable crude pos, will you continue to hand your money to CR? NO. Now if you own a Toyota, and CR is always telling you how great it is, you will never cancel your subscription.

This is an extremely one sided review. In fact, I thought it was actually written by CR thats how biased it sounded. Nevermind the counter opinions that CR's results may be flawed, let's portray them as being the almighty, and act like their results are 100% accurate. Complete BS.

[pow]

On some points, I agree. I can see how the Civic, Accord, TL, Odyssey, M35, and Forester are best among their peers.

[nyscene911]

I posted this in a thread on another site where people were defending CR

Company(JD Rank from top)

CR's Top Ten:

1. Lexus(1)-Thats right on, Lexus's are awesomely reliable.

2. Honda(9)

3-Toyota(7)

4-Mitsubishi(26)-wow, big gap

5-Subaru(21)-Another big gap

6-Acura(10)

7-Scion-Not rated(too new for JDP)

8-Mercury(8 )

9-Mazda(19)

10-Suzuki(30)-another wow

And CR's Lowest Rated

1. Audi(31)

2.Infinity(6)-huge gap

3. Saturn(15)-Another pretty big gap

4. Lincoln(3)-HUGE gap in results

5. Jaguar(23)

6. Mercedes-Benz(31)

7. Volkswagen(34)

8. Land Rover(36)

9. Hummer (not rated)

10. Porsche(2)

*All JDP rankings out of 37*

The differences between CR and JDP is Astounding!

Edited March 2, 2006 by nyscene911

[pow]

I posted this in a thread on another site where people were defending CR

Company(JD Rank from top)

CR's Top Ten:

1. Lexus(1)-Thats right on, Lexus's are awesomely reliable.

2. Honda(9)

3-Toyota(7)

4-Mitsubishi(26)-wow, big gap

5-Subaru(21)-Another big gap

6-Acura(10)

7-Scion-Not rated(too new for JDP)

8-Mercury(

9-Mazda(19)

10-Suzuki(30)-another wow

And CR's Lowest Rated

1. Audi(31)

2.Infinity(6)-huge gap

3. Saturn(15)-Another pretty big gap

4. Lincoln(3)-HUGE gap in results

5. Jaguar(23)

6. Mercedes-Benz(31)

7. Volkswagen(34)

8. Land Rover(36)

9. Hummer (not rated)

10. Porsche(2)

*All JDP rankings out of 37*

The differences between CR and JDP is Astounding!

It really shows the limitations of surveys when Porsche can be both dead last and second place in reliability.

[nyscene911]

It really shows the limitations of surveys when Porsche can be both dead last and second place in reliability.

And that Suzuki Mitsubishi and Subaru can crack the top ten when all are pretty well below the average in JDP.

[Sixty8panther]

I wouldn't even wipe my @$$ with this filth. Disturbing, tragically flawed and quite out ofd touch wiht reality. I'm sure a couple of Japanese cars deserve to be on there but most of them are not even runners up in my book.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[njtex]

I saw a TV news interview on the subject tonight. The CR rep blew-off the somewhat contrary JD Power results showing domestics ahead of many asian brands, and getting better all the time.

Funny that on the other hand, CR relies on goverment and insurance industry testing and ratings when needed to back their "results".

My conclusion is that CR just plays to their own audience and does what it needs to do to sell the most magazines.

BTW, Just drove in the new RAV4 yesterday. The whole freaky interior is hard plastic (like the #1 Oddessy) yet GM gets blasted for just having hard lower door panels.

[balthazar]

CR filters surveys of 810,000 vehicles over 8 years. That's 101,000 vehicles per year... in a circa 16,500,000 unit year.

That's a statistical sampling of 0.6%.

Undobtedly, some vehicles are not reported on as plentifully as others. CR published reliabilty scores on --for example-- the infiniti q45. That car sells in the neightborhood of 450 units per year. 0.6% of 450 is less than 3 cars.

Why doesn't CR publish the number of vehicles their 'results' are based on? Popular Mechanics used to publish the number of owner-driven miles in their long-term reviews of vehciles in the 1960s. Can there be any other reason than because it would devalue their 'findings' due to insignificantly low samplings???

Add to that the fact that CR has never and will never reveal the formulas for how these surveys are tabulated into half-black or half-red circles, among a number of other cryptic proceedures, and you are left with NOT an "influential and respected" publication but a great case study for self-promotion and public manipulation.

At least the talks & open allegations of bias are spreading to the point that unrelated press conferances by CR are now prompted to address this very issue. Hopefully either full disclosure or outright reputation damnation will follow.

The consumer is growing too smart/well informed for CR's charade to continue much longer.

[Jazzhead]

To hell with Consumer Reports. "Humiliation"? When American quality rivals the Japanese and surpasses the Europeans?

May a hard-working American put out of work by this cheap, unnecessary negativity piddle on the shoes of these lickspittles.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Jazzhead

[scharmer05]

i know a guy that has a scion tc and says it is the biggest piece of crap that he has ever bought, but he is locked into his lease and scion cracks the top 10.

[Guest Josh]

Scion did terrible last year if I remember right, now, all of a sudden they crack the top 10? It's good to see Toyota's $$$$ being sent to one company, Consumer Reports.

[haypops]

I really don't think Consumer Reports is biased. I think that they are totally incompetant. Reading their $h! is bad for you. They are sophomoric in their analysis. They are stupid in their insights. Their people rode to school on the short bus. The editor just learned to tie his shoe laces last year. Their feature writer has training whells on there bicycles.

Now I feel a little better - thanks for helping.

[regfootball]

is Cr'S ONLY SAMPLE BASE THEIR OWN READERS? If its not a random sample of the US population, then its inherently biased.

[Snate]

CR is garbage...their unscientific method of surveying makes CR worthless.

[Hudson]

This thread is so funny.

[siegen]

I think using humiliation in the first paragraph is definately uncalled for.

Edit: Here's Yahoo's article on the results, shorter and to the point. I'm surprised MSNBC let this get through. There'll probably be a lot flak taken on Mr. Jones behalf.

Edited March 2, 2006 by siegen

[Flybrian]

Even by CR's own admission did US makes score better - way better - than their European counterparts. Where's the humilation factor there?

CR claims to be unbiased and wholly scientific in their writing, yet the facts prove otherwise. As Balthazar stated, their sample pool is extrodinarily limited, based mainly on the responses of their own subscribers. How many times have you read "Although unknown at this time, we predict reliability to be above average given this model's history" even though the car may be 100% new? CR reviews talk about seat comfort, ease of entry, and and other subjective 'feelings' without revealing the physical characteristics of the tester himself, which is wholly unscientific.

I remember distinctly how a past comparo involving a LeSabre Custom, Avalon XLS, Bonneville SE, and Grand Marquis placed the Avalon heads and shoulder above the rest, owing to its "higher level of standard equipment" and "more controlled ride" while failing to recognize they chose base models of the other cars against a thousands-more uplevel trim of the Avalon.

CR is living off the clout it had earned in the past, and not off any achievement or contribution its making today.

[Newbiewar]

is Cr'S ONLY SAMPLE BASE THEIR OWN READERS?  If its not a random sample of the US population, then its inherently biased.

yes... in 2005 they sent out 6 million surveys only to receive a record 1 million back. and to weather those surveys were about cars... you've got me stumped...

if they published that information I sure wouldnt be a subscriber.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Anyone remember what I said about Toyota being secure and now Honda benefiting from the media blitz??? This is more proof... 5 of these 10 cars are Hondas.

Oh, and... Isn't it funny that, after a year of SLOW Ridgeline sales and in light of the new 900s coming on line, the Ridgeline is getting YET another significant PR push in the form of CR slurping...

I'm so sick of Ridgline praise I could puke... The media is lobbying SO heavily for this ugly piece of $h! that's it's pitifully obvious.

Oh, and this just goes to show that CR, the union founded by the man who was the first to form anti-domestic bias (For no reason other than self gratification) Ralph Nader, isn't afraid to deliver the magic silver bullet that will finish off Detroit. A survey this morning on ABC said that 80% of buyers found this survey to be important. So, by kicking detroit in the teeth while they're in such bad shape I pretty sure that CR, a biased, private publication (Taken as gospel by the sheep) might've just got the job done for the asians.

Japanese automakers achieved another milestone in the ongoing humiliation of their U.S. counterparts

LOL... First of all, I don't see how NOT being on a list of a traditionally biased PRIVATE source of news is humiliation. Secondly, this statement SHOWS their bias perfectly. And thirdly; THAT IS THE POINT RIGHT??? To humiliate and kill the domestics???

It's a sad day when journalism this BIASED (The statement) is allowed and credited as factual unbiased press.

It was the first time in the nine-year history of the respected annual survey that Asian nameplates swept the list of “best” automobiles,

WOW!!! What a LONG and storied history (sarcasm)

Asian brands also fared best in the magazine’s survey of vehicle reliability. Toyota’s Lexus nameplate came in first, while the Honda brand was second and Toyota third. Ford’s Mercury brand was the only domestic nameplate to crack the top 10. An 8-year-old Toyota had about the same number of problems as a 2- or 3-year old vehicle from General Motors or Ford, according to the survey of the magazine's readers.

Domestic ratings will CONTINUE TO GET WORSE in CR... Why??? To offset the positive PR of the FACTUAL J.D. Power reports of course.

James Guest, president of Consumers Union, the publisher of Consumer Reports, dismissed claims that the magazine is biased against American-made cars, pointing to a 2005 American Demographics study, conducted by Advertising Age, that found Consumer Reports to be the most trustworthy media outlet for consumer information.

And that proves WHAT exactly?!?!?!?! Just because you're SUPPOSEDLY a good source of information doesn't mean that you're not biased.

While Asian carmakers continue to make the most reliable cars, overall car quality is declining, according to David Champion, director of automobile testing at Consumer Reports. The magazine polled some one million subscribers about 17 different trouble spots in their cars, and asked them whether they had serious problems with their vehicles in the past year, or had to take them to a dealer.

One million?!?!? That's it!!!! in a 17-18 million vehicle market...

The results showed Japanese and Korean brands had 12 problems per 100 vehicles, while U.S. automakers had 18 problems and European makers had 21 problems.

WOW!!! What a HUGE difference!!! Oh, and why isn't there any DOOM and GLOOM articles about the europeans being shut out?!?!?!

After Lexus, Honda and Toyota,

Of course, the three GOLDEN COWS

brands rounding out the top 10 for reliability were Mitsubishi,

I call bull$h! on that one. (I'm sure they just threw Mitsu a bone to try and ease their financial problems)

Subaru, Acura, Scion,

All the effeminate hippie brands

Mercury, Mazda

Obviously the press release was innacurate; as Mazda IS owned by Ford and IS in the top 10. Of course, we can't tell the public that now can we???

and Suzuki.

Another domestic influenced company.

The 10 lowest-rated brands were Audi, Infiniti,

BUT WAIT?!?!?!? Wasn't an Infiniti on the top ten list?!?!?!?!

Saturn,

OH NO!!!! The new Saturns are threatening to the asian brands.... Gotta start them off on a bad footing.

Lincoln, Jaguar, Land Rover,

Kill Ford's momentum.

Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen

***GASP!!!*** VW!?!?!?! The wholly recommended VW?!?!?!?

Hummer

Greenie revenge

“Domestic vehicles have made substantial advances, Ford is doing better than GM and Chrysler, but new model launches are not as good,” Champion said, adding that one reason for the decline in reliability may be the rise in electronic features in cars. “We are seeing many more electronic features, and that’s the biggest trouble area readers tell us about.”

Reliability is what sells cars, Champion added, noting that if a car has to go back to the dealer in the final year of ownership, a buyer is less likely to purchase another car from that manufacturer. “But you’re more likely to go back if the car is reliable,” he added. “I still think that, going forward, domestic carmakers need to fix the problems with their current cars is to stem their decline in market share and catch up with the Asians.”

I actually agree with this...

DAMMIT DETROIT!!! It's F*ckin' war now!!! You need to come OUT swinging and if you go down, then at least, BY GOD you tried!

The Ford Motor Company official on World News Tonight said it best, and I quote: "We have only BEGUN TO FIGHT"

“We’re not talking about [all] Japanese cars, but in particular Toyota and Honda — they build cars that are the whole package, so they rise to the top in our tests.”

Interpretation number 1: The new big 2

Interpretation number 2: What's wrong guys, after years of getting BURNED by forging a reputation for Japan Inc. overall yet facts showing otherwise (EXAMPLE: Nissan and their HORRIBLE quality) you have to be more specific now?!?!?!

Interpretation number 3: Apparently only Toyota and Honda sent their checks on time.

adding that Japan’s background in the electronics industry may also help the durability of their automobiles. “The U.S. and Europe have lost a lot of that capacity.”

Oh yeah, that's right!!!! After we allowed them to SCREW US OUT OF THAT SECTOR. (Much like were HELPING them do in automobiles)

Consumer Reports names its top picks based on a series of tests, including evaluations of comfort, convenience and fuel economy, road and track tests, crash protection ratings from the government and insurance industry and readers’ reliability rankings.

Yeah, a series of tests on what their readership wants to hear maybe...

Tests that they have YET to prove are little more that SUBJECTIVE ratings.

Consumer Reports spokeswoman Lauren Hackett said the April auto issue is consistently the magazine’s most popular, selling more than 300,000 copies at newsstands. That’s twice as many copies as its second-most popular issue, the November electronics issue.

WOW, only 300,000 issues... F*ck it then, the effects of this will be minimal (Yeah right) Those are some crappy numbers though.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's only going to get worse. Do you think an owner of one of the unreliable POS cars according to CR, is going to keep their subscription? What if you own a perfectly reliable car, and every time you open CR they slam it for being an unreliable crude pos, will you continue to hand your money to CR? NO. Now if you own a Toyota, and CR is always telling you how great it is, you will never cancel your subscription.

This is an extremely one sided review. In fact, I thought it was actually written by CR thats how biased it sounded. Nevermind the counter opinions that CR's results may be flawed, let's portray them as being the almighty, and act like their results are 100% accurate. Complete BS.

That's what we do in america... Pass sh*t off as fact, ESPECIALLY when it deals with "the rust belt"

[Flybrian]

Once again, I must point out the question they aren't asking: if this is so humiliating for domestic manufacturers as these analysts love to highlight, then is there even an adjective to describe the sentiment for European manufacturers who not only have more problems than US cars and nearly twice as many as the Japanese, but whose ratings also "haven’t changed substantially in the last four years" despite everyone else improving?

After all, US cars have always been cheap, low-quality garbage. Weren't Volkswagens, Mercedes, et al once regarded as the best in their class? World-beaters? Standard-bearers? Or is spending time in the shop a part of the kitsch of owning a European car, a time to gather with owners of other glitchy, overpriced imports and discuss how much better they are than plebian American crap?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I saw a TV news interview on the subject tonight.  The CR rep blew-off the somewhat contrary JD Power results showing domestics ahead of many asian brands, and getting better all the time.

Funny that on the other hand, CR relies on goverment and insurance industry testing and ratings when needed to back their "results".

My conclusion is that CR just plays to their own audience and does what it needs to do to sell the most magazines.

BTW, Just drove in the new RAV4 yesterday.  The whole freaky interior is hard plastic (like the #1 Oddessy) yet GM gets blasted for just having hard lower door panels.

The difference is that J.D. Power NEVER gets as much publicity...

C.R. is biased and will continue to contribute to the inevitable decline of Detroit into ruin. No one listens to facts counter to the 'imports are better' argument because those are the rose colored glasses they've been handed for 30 years now.

Once again, I must point out the question they aren't asking: if this is so humiliating for domestic manufacturers as these analysts love to highlight, then is there even an adjective to describe the sentiment for European manufacturers who not only have more problems than US cars and nearly twice as many as the Japanese, but whose ratings also "haven’t changed substantially in the last four years" despite everyone else improving?

After all, US cars have always been cheap, low-quality garbage. Weren't Volkswagens, Mercedes, et al once regarded as the best in their class? World-beaters? Standard-bearers? Or is spending time in the shop a part of the kitsch of owning a European car, a time to gather with owners of other glitchy, overpriced imports and discuss how much better they are than plebian American crap?

That can't be used to RID us of the domestic auto industry, so it's out of sight, out of mind and largely, doesn't matter.

[CARBIZ]

It is interesting that the article drags the Japanese electronics industry into this. Very appropriate, I think. The dumping of televisions on the North American market in the '60s and '70s is well documented. Hitachi, Toshiba, etc. were given sugar and beet import quotas to offset their losses in North America while they ran the American manufacturers into the ground or bought them out.

I can guess at part of the reason that CR's ratings are so out of whack, but like it or not, GM and Ford need to tackle this head on. A lot of this bias can be traced back to the university weenies who bought VW and Honda 25 years ago because they were cheap and decent on gas.

Honestly, these guys are in charge of these magazines and think tanks now. Even I will admit that if you compared a '81 Civic to a '81 J2000, you would probably have admitted the Civic was a better car, but it is unfair to base your entire judgement of the American industry by a comparison between your mother's '78 Fairmont and your '81 Civic that your drove in university!!!!!!

We see the typical CR reader in our show rooms. I call them the clipboard customer - you know, the teacher, the architect, the accountant. They have nothing else to do at work but respond to those silly surveys. The workaday guys and gals that buy Dodge's and Chevys are too busy WORKING to bother responding to the silly surveys, nor do they have time to ponder the biases of CR's magazine.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

We see the typical CR reader in our show rooms. I call them the clipboard customer - you know, the teacher, the architect, the accountant. They have nothing else to do at work but respond to those silly surveys. The workaday guys and gals that buy Dodge's and Chevys are too busy WORKING to bother responding to the silly surveys, nor do they have time to ponder the biases of CR's magazine.

And unfortunately, these are the people who INFLUENCE and MAKE the decisions of others... It's like an effective Toyota advertising scheme.

CR probably included the Japanese electronics reference to add salt to the wound... After all, thanks to people like them we're seeing the same thing happen to yet another industry. And what's sad is; people know it (ESPECIALLY the media) and they take cheapshots at it as much as they can.

On the positive side (counter to F_O_G basic logic of: THERE IS NO POSITIVE SIDE) Consumer Reports DOES seem to be losing credibility and DOES seem to be having to field more questions about their bias and accuracy. (Or lack there of when it comes to accuracy)

[I hope GMRULES again]

I agree with a lot of your points FOG and CARBIZ but the reality is if Detroit doesn't make some head way with CR they are destined for the Graveyard. This story is all over the news this morning. I heard it on the radio stations on my drive to work. "Japanese cars are the best", "Japanese cars are the best" "Japanese cars are the best"... yada yada yada. Its enough to give me a headache. Now I have to go into damage control mode to fend off all the A**holes who will be bothering me about this story today.

[CARBIZ]

CR should tread carefully. What will they print once they've run GM and Ford out of business? Do they think Honda and Toyota will keep paying for as much advertising once the Big Three are gone?

Seriously, I don't get it with Americans and their constant bashing of their own industries! Japan Inc. has gone down this road before, yet Washington does nothing.

I think it is time for Ford and GM to join forces and conduct their own studies to hit this one head to head. It is interesting to note that when PROFESSIONAL outside sources, with no axe to grind, investigate the car industry, GM turns out to have integrity; whereas, Toyota loses out. An example of that is the recent SAE horsepower ratings where most of GM's vehicles went UP in horsepower and most of Toyota's went DOWN. What other areas is Toyota "fudging."

Ford and GM have enormous resources. I think they should start pooling and them.

[haypops]

CR should tread carefully.  What will they print once they've run GM and Ford out of business?  Do they think Honda and Toyota will keep paying for as much advertising once the Big Three are gone?

 

CR doesn't take any advertising! That is part of their claim to fame and why too many people believe them.

One of the statements in the article struck me as strange. They report that 3 year old American cars have more repairs than 8 year old Japanesse cars. I suspect that 3 years old is probably one of the worst years of car ownership. About this time tires brakes, and battery go south. I wonder if a 3 year old chevy doesn't have more repairs than an 8 year old chevy too?

[ToniCipriani]

CR doesn't take any advertising!  That is part of their claim to fame and why too many people believe them. 

One of the statements in the article struck me as strange.  They report that 3 year old American cars have more repairs than 8 year old Japanesse cars.  I suspect that 3 years old is probably one of the worst years of car ownership.  About this time tires brakes, and battery go south.  I wonder if a 3 year old chevy doesn't have more repairs than an 8 year old chevy too?

Yeah, it got me confused too. They didn't specify when did the repairs took place in the 8 year old car. Maybe all in the first 3 years?

Simply, I highly doubt you can stack up the repairs like that. From my ManSci class, they say that stacking like this is just a common trick in statistics used to confuse and fool people. If they say they aren't biased like that they shouldn't be using this kind of statistics.

Edited March 2, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[haypops]

Yeah, it got me confused too. They didn't specify when did the repairs took place in the 8 year old car. Maybe all in the first 3 years?

I thake it to mean that in the year following the second birthday of the American car vs. all repairs in the year folowing the 7th birthday of the Japanesse car. However, it is always a mistake to assume and competancy for CR.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I agree with a lot of your points FOG and CARBIZ but the reality is if Detroit doesn't make some head way with CR they are destined for the Graveyard. This story is all over the news this morning. I heard it on the radio stations on my drive to work. "Japanese cars are the best", "Japanese cars are the best" "Japanese cars are the best"... yada yada yada. Its enough to give me a headache. Now I have to go into damage control mode to fend off all the A**holes who will be bothering me about this story today.

I agree 100%.

And I love the fact that the media is playing it up like this is some OFFICIAL proven fact...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

CR should tread carefully.  What will they print once they've run GM and Ford out of business?  Do they think Honda and Toyota will keep paying for as much advertising once the Big Three are gone?

  Seriously, I don't get it with Americans and their constant bashing of their own industries!  Japan Inc. has gone down this road before, yet Washington does nothing. 

  I think it is time for Ford and GM to join forces and conduct their own studies to hit this one head to head.  It is interesting to note that when PROFESSIONAL outside sources, with no axe to grind, investigate the car industry, GM turns out to have integrity; whereas, Toyota loses out.  An example of that is the recent SAE horsepower ratings where most of GM's vehicles went UP in horsepower and most of Toyota's went DOWN.  What other areas is Toyota "fudging."

  Ford and GM have enormous resources.  I think they should start pooling and them.

It's going to end up taking something like this to sway opinions... GM and Ford need to team up to promote the virtues of buying domestic. And no, I'm not talking bout a flag waiving campaign, I'm talking about FACTS pressed on the consumer promoting GM and Ford as the better ALL AROUND products/companies.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yeah, it got me confused too. They didn't specify when did the repairs took place in the 8 year old car. Maybe all in the first 3 years?

Simply, I highly doubt you can stack up the repairs like that. From my ManSci class, they say that stacking like this is just a common trick in statistics used to confuse and fool people. If they say they aren't biased like that they shouldn't be using this kind of statistics.

The satement was made with ONE goal in mind... To destroy domestic credibility.

Seriously, CR IS biased.

[regfootball]

CR doesn't take any advertising!  That is part of their claim to fame and why too many people believe them. 

One of the statements in the article struck me as strange.  They report that 3 year old American cars have more repairs than 8 year old Japanesse cars.  I suspect that 3 years old is probably one of the worst years of car ownership.  About this time tires brakes, and battery go south.  I wonder if a 3 year old chevy doesn't have more repairs than an 8 year old chevy too?

how many $$$ is toyota paying them under the table?

[regfootball]

Once again, I must point out the question they aren't asking: if this is so humiliating for domestic manufacturers as these analysts love to highlight, then is there even an adjective to describe the sentiment for European manufacturers who not only have more problems than US cars and nearly twice as many as the Japanese, but whose ratings also "haven’t changed substantially in the last four years" despite everyone else improving?

After all, US cars have always been cheap, low-quality garbage. Weren't Volkswagens, Mercedes, et al once regarded as the best in their class? World-beaters? Standard-bearers? Or is spending time in the shop a part of the kitsch of owning a European car, a time to gather with owners of other glitchy, overpriced imports and discuss how much better they are than plebian American crap?

no, european cars are SO COOL and so HIP, they get a pass too.......

[Hudson]

CR should tread carefully.  What will they print once they've run GM and Ford out of business?  Do they think Honda and Toyota will keep paying for as much advertising once the Big Three are gone?

So should Consumer Reports just put GM and Ford products in its lists...just because? Is it too much to believe that GM and Ford don't make the best products in any of the segments covered? Is it really that hard to believe?

And what advertising money does Consumer Reports get from GM and Ford?

[regfootball]

It is interesting that the article drags the Japanese electronics industry into this.  Very appropriate, I think.  The dumping of televisions on the North American market in the '60s and '70s is well documented.  Hitachi, Toshiba, etc. were given sugar and beet import quotas to offset their losses in North America while they ran the American manufacturers into the ground or bought them out.

  I can guess at part of the reason that CR's ratings are so out of whack, but like it or not, GM and Ford need to tackle this head on.  A lot of this bias can be traced back to the university weenies who bought VW and Honda 25 years ago because they were cheap and decent on gas. 

  Honestly, these guys are in charge of these magazines and think tanks now.  Even I will admit that if you compared a '81 Civic to a '81 J2000, you would probably have admitted the Civic was a better car, but it is unfair to base your entire judgement of the American industry by a comparison between your mother's '78 Fairmont and your '81 Civic that your drove in university!!!!!!

  We see the typical CR reader in our show rooms.  I call them the clipboard customer - you know, the teacher, the architect, the accountant.  They have nothing else to do at work but respond to those silly surveys.  The workaday guys and gals that buy Dodge's and Chevys are too busy WORKING to bother responding to the silly surveys, nor do they have time to ponder the biases of CR's magazine.

"A lot of this bias can be traced back to the university weenies who bought VW and Honda 25 years ago because they were cheap and decent on gas.

Honestly, these guys are in charge of these magazines and think tanks now"

absolutely 100% true. it is the whole foundation behind all of this. Like I said in the other topic, popular mechanics has similar owner data but PM readers aren't of the same 'ilk' so MSNBC does not write stories about what PM 'white trash' readers are saying about their Lesabres.

Edited March 2, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

It is interesting that the article drags the Japanese electronics industry into this. Very appropriate, I think. The dumping of televisions on the North American market in the '60s and '70s is well documented. Hitachi, Toshiba, etc. were given sugar and beet import quotas to offset their losses in North America while they ran the American manufacturers into the ground or bought them out.

I can guess at part of the reason that CR's ratings are so out of whack, but like it or not, GM and Ford need to tackle this head on. A lot of this bias can be traced back to the university weenies who bought VW and Honda 25 years ago because they were cheap and decent on gas.

Honestly, these guys are in charge of these magazines and think tanks now. Even I will admit that if you compared a '81 Civic to a '81 J2000, you would probably have admitted the Civic was a better car, but it is unfair to base your entire judgement of the American industry by a comparison between your mother's '78 Fairmont and your '81 Civic that your drove in university!!!!!!

We see the typical CR reader in our show rooms. I call them the clipboard customer - you know, the teacher, the architect, the accountant. They have nothing else to do at work but respond to those silly surveys. The workaday guys and gals that buy Dodge's and Chevys are too busy WORKING to bother responding to the silly surveys, nor do they have time to ponder the biases of CR's magazine.

I must be one F'ed up architect. My five 'new' cars I've bought in my lifetime have been Ford or GM. I bought two 'almost new' Mitsubishis by the way. All seven of those 'new' cars have been top drawer reliability and none of them sucked.

I am not sure where people are perceving a huge factual divide here. reliability is so close between the carmakers now, but folks seem to think toyotas will never break down and that parts fall of your GM and your engine explodes on the trip home from the dealer. The tone behind these articles is like that, and its not fair. its borderline slander/lible.

Ford and GM DO need to team up. Its out of hand.

Edited March 2, 2006 by regfootball

[I hope GMRULES again]

It's going to end up taking something like this to sway opinions... GM and Ford need to team up to promote the virtues of buying domestic. And no, I'm not talking bout a flag waiving campaign, I'm talking about FACTS pressed on the consumer promoting GM and Ford as the better ALL AROUND products/companies.

I think GM and Ford should team up because it really is us against them now and there's not much time left in this game.

[haypops]

Seriously, CR IS biased.

You really give them too much credit. They don't know squat and that includes toasters.

[CARBIZ]

Why doesn't SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE do a definitive study.

Take 100 new Camry owners, 100 new Malibu owners, 100 new Altima owners, 100 new Taurus owners, 100 new Accord owners, and so on and follow them from purchase to, say, 5 years. A longer study would be warranted but the American auto industry will be dead by then at this rate.

I would love to see this full, factual study done. It would have to be randomly selected from around North America so that we could get a broad cross section of driving locations, weather, etc.

Because what we never see in print or ADMITTED to is the TRUE COST OF OWNERSHIP. I am talking about the wonderful $139 trip to the Toyota dealer. I am talking about the $600 timing belt change on a Honda engine. I am talking about premium gas in mid-size family vehicles. (customers are told this by Honda dealers even in cars that don't require it!) I am talking about higher insurance premiums. If an Avalon is $6,000 more than a loaded Impala - WELL THE F##KING THING HAD BETTER BE BETTER THAN AN IMPALA, DAMMIT!

Frankly, this CR debate makes me puke. We own two Toyota stores and I can tell you...TOYOTA HAS JUST AS MANY BODIES IN THE BACK YARD, THEY ARE JUST BURIED A LITTLE DEEPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

General Motors needs to get off their ass and take the media to court, if necessary to get this bias off the pages. Bob Lutz challenged Jim Kenzie of that liberal rag The Toronto Star to a duel a couple years back when they trashed the Grand Prix. We need to see more of that ballsy stuff before the entire American auto industry is gone.

[regfootball]

my friend the other day was whining about how his car expenses went up so much last year. HE got a new Passat and then she had to have a new vehicle too so she got a Pilot. He was bound and determined to not drive American anymore after a string of about 5 Chryslers (in which case I guess I can see why). Anyways, he started talking about premium gas and high insurance and not as agood of mpg as he expected.

But at least he's not driving American crap anymore.........

I'm guessing his insurance might be 20% higher and the premium gas is another 5-10% penalty. The Pilot gets 15mpg and the Passat 4 cylinder barely cracks 20.

But that umbrella holder is SOOOOO worth it.

Here's the kicker. He's even commented more than once now about the Pilot is not that great and how a lot of stuff seems cheap (to him). Of course, he wants a Touareg.

And he's already had to have stuff fixed on the Passat. i bet the Intrepid never had to have the windshield replaced within 6 months of new, do to a stress breakage.

Edited March 3, 2006 by regfootball

[The O.C.]

It really shows the limitations of surveys when Porsche can be both dead last and second place in reliability.

I don't give EITHER Consumer Reports OR J.D. Powers alot of credibility.

Unfortunately, consumers do....

J.D. Powers' quality surveys are heavily biased on the responses that consumers give them.......for example.....the Lexus buyer would never DARE report any dissatisfaction with their new Lexus because they are so convinced it's the "best car in the world" and they've told all their friends and peers the same thing. In many cases, it's an ego thing.

Why do you think Japanese designed-and-built Suzuki would consistently be at the bottom the J.D. Powers list?

Well, a significant portion of people that have bought a new Suzuki only did so because it's all they could afford....or all they could get approved for due to low income, bad credit, or other reasons. In other words....they come into a Honda/Suzuki dealership looking at a loaded Accord V6....but end up in a base Forenza because its all they could get approved on....so of course they have disdain for the Suzuki from day ONE. Then what happens? J.D. Powers & Associates comes a 'knockin looking for feedback.

There are no "checks and balances" for J.D. Powers to guarantee that consumers are TRUTHFUL in their responses.....both good AND bad.