MT: Lincoln Continental 3.0T First Test

[surreal1272]

Folks can talk about the Conti competing with the CT6 and sale figures but the fact is that it has more in common with the XTS, which sold more than the Conti and CT6 combined last month alone. Why MT fails to acknowledge the XTS is beyond me escpecially when the CT6 competes at higher price point. Take that for what it's worth and it does not take away from the many positives of the Conti. It's a step in the right direction for Lincoln and we should hope for its success. 

[William Maley]

12 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Even with its turbo V6, magnetic ride, advanced AWD, and wood-trimmed interior, the XTS is still a maxed-out mainstream sedan. It doesn't touch the engineering behind the CT6 or other large luxury cars. I think we all agree the only interesting XTS is the 410 hp V-Sport, and still we'd all rather spend that money elsewhere.

1

Unless you're me who would gladly buy an XTS VSport. I loved it when I drove it a few years back and have been looking at used models just for fun.
 

24 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They compete the same way an ATS 3.6 and an ES350 compete.... but sure.... if that makes you feel better.... they compete on that level of being in the same general price class.

And again....

Continental Taxis

So I take the sales numbers of the Continental with a giant grain of fleet salt. 

 

 

Relevant note here: 30 percent of Ford's sales are made up by fleet, well above the 19 percent average for other automakers.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, William Maley said:

Unless you're me who would gladly buy an XTS VSport. I loved it when I drove it a few years back and have been looking at used models just for fun.

I'd go with an XTS V-Sport over a CTS V-Sport any day of the week... so I'm with you there.   I'm one of the few who really like the way they look... plus... air ride suspension. 

16 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

...and again....if we are using sales stats....at the end of November, Lincoln did not crack 100,000 in sales...compared with Infinity at 120,000 roughly, Acura with 144,000 (roughly) Cadillac with 148,000 (roughly) BMW almost 200,000 units ahead of Lincoln at 280,000, Lexus ahead of them at almost 300,000, and Benz with a whopping 338,000 cars....

Audi is posting consistent sales gains and is pushing almost double the number of Lincoln at 187,000 cars.....

So yes, the non fleeted conti's are a nice conquest but a drop in the bucket. 

And GMC sold over 100k Denalis so far this year.... but it doesn't matter because it is unlikely someone is cross shopping nearly anything with a Denali badge against nearly anything with a Lincoln badge..... the only direct comparison I could see is Navigator to Yukon Denali, and the Navigator is cheaper. 

Rather than chase volume, I would rather see Lincoln be a purveyor of boutique automobiles of fantastic, untouchable quality, but appealing only to a rather selective audience lest they become *sniff* "common". 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

37 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They compete the same way an ATS 3.6 and an ES350 compete.... but sure.... if that makes you feel better.... they compete on that level of being in the same general price class.

And again....

Continental Taxis

So I take the sales numbers of the Continental with a giant grain of fleet salt. 

 

GM overall and even the CT6 sells with higher incentives. That is a far bigger problem than you spotting a fleet car, which both brands sell.

 

Oh, and here is a much bigger problem yet.

 

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161212/OEM/312129957/ballooning-inventories-will-test-gms-resolve

[Cmicasa the Great]

17 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Folks can talk about the Conti competing with the CT6 and sale figures but the fact is that it has more in common with the XTS, which sold more than the Conti and CT6 combined last month alone. Why MT fails to acknowledge the XTS is beyond me escpecially when the CT6 competes at higher price point. Take that for what it's worth and it does not take away from the many positives of the Conti. It's a step in the right direction for Lincoln and we should hope for its success. 

It makes no sense at all outside of the fact that the CT6 is high-profile right now as the new thing out.. The XTS, which is clearly the equal, if not better of the Continental is obviously the car to compare it to... but noooooooooooooo.. MT and idiots alike really want to compare a CT6, a car which is 95% S550 competitor in Platinum form.. 110% an LS460 and competitor, and damn near 100% a 750i competitor to a God damn Ford Taurus. Its reaching at straws and coming up with leeches carrying Ebola. 

[Drew Dowdell]

6 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

GM overall and even the CT6 sells with higher incentives. That is a far bigger problem than you spotting a fleet car, which both brands sell.

 

Oh, and here is a much bigger problem yet.

 

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161212/OEM/312129957/ballooning-inventories-will-test-gms-resolve

Yes, GM needs to dial back production... Just like Ford and all the others have needed to do in the past.

[Cmicasa the Great]

15 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'd go with an XTS V-Sport over a CTS V-Sport any day of the week... so I'm with you there.   I'm one of the few who really like the way they look... plus... air ride suspension. 

 

This is where we differ. I prefer the CTS-VSport over the XTS-Vsport because of my love of Sport. The CTS-VSport might actually be the best of all the configs as it is the Goldilocks "Just Right" kinda Porridge. BUT!!! If U are looking for the space.. the power.. the name.. and AWD, then U are gonna go XTS-VSport over the CTS-VSport all day. If comparing the XTS-V Sport to the Continenal 3.0T.. again.. XTS-VSport all day. They are the same car.. except the Caddy is a Caddy.. prettier.. has more power.. faster (based on MT Tests of both)... not a Lincoln

 

In fact their is really only one thing that Lincoln did better than Cadillac in either the XTS or the CT6. Ironically I have it in my V, the ELR, and Escalade have it too.. yet Cadillac just won't streamline it to the entire line-up despite it probably costing them an additional $5. Guess what it is?

[David]

17 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161212/OEM/312129957/ballooning-inventories-will-test-gms-resolve

Good Link, shows GM does need to look at trimming production, but also I would agree that they are stocking units to deal with line change over for new models. Common approach to dealing with changes that will have production offline and yet allows them to still have product on the sales lot to sell.

Worth keeping an eye on, but not a big deal at this time.

[A Horse With No Name]

36 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Everyone around here wants cars and brands to be some sort of team sport.  It really isn't.  Cars today, with few exceptions, are excellent at what they do and anything left is primarily nit-picking.  I like the Continental and I like the CT6.  I hit the powerball tomorrow and I could see both in my driveway simultaneously with a Chrysler 300C Platinum hemi thrown in just to get the trifecta.   Why?  Because I ♥ Cars.  I'm not worried about which one gets me to the grocery store faster because even a Corolla would do the job.  There really is no more "better".... it's all just preference. If one sells more than the other (regardless of fleet or not), it just means that more people prefer one over the other for any multitude of reasons.  Some people prefer Avocados.... I personally really dislike them..... my parents on the other hand bought an Avocado plantation a few years ago. My opinion of Avocados  or the sales of Avocado in general makes no difference on how good or bad they are. The LS and 7-Series are both excellent choices in that market, but personally, I'd go with neither.  I think the Genesis G90 would get my dollars before either of those two and certainly the Lincoln or Cadillac above that.... but that's just my opinion.

I'm driving a V6 300C this week in Houston and loving it.... No it's not on the same level as the Conti or the CT6... but it's still big, good, American iron.  It moves well, rides comfortably, and looks good. Just plain fun.  

 

Guys, we're here because we love cars.  If you want to root for sports teams, there are plenty of places on the web for that. 

I am not rooting for a sports team, my paradigm is that I would consider all of the players (Benz, Lexus, Acura, BMW, Buick, Volvo, Cadillac, Lincoln, Infinity) as having real work to do to bring their product to where it should be.

Were I to hit the powerball tomorrow, I would have a WRX in my driveway and travel with the balance.

I think that it is possible that we have one last golden age of Luxury ICE cars before we go electric. I am essentially a selfish bastard and would like to see that before I die.

Not thinking that this "golden age" of luxury cars is going to come unless we demand it.

And I would accuse all 9 of the above, and throw in Chrysler for a good number 10 (300 has not had a complete update since its introduction over a decade ago) of resting on their laurels to a certain extent.

Yes, all of the above can be good clean fun...(as can the #11 player, Genesis G90).  But my fear is that we "dance on the 50 yard line" and let car makers rest on their laurels.

YMMV.

[David]

8 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

In fact their is really only one thing that Lincoln did better than Cadillac in either the XTS or the CT6. Ironically I have it in my V, the ELR, and Escalade have it too.. yet Cadillac just won't streamline it to the entire line-up despite it probably costing them an additional $5. Guess what it is?

OK, Too many things on the brain to think about what feature is in my Escalade ESV Platinum that is not in the others. Pretty please just tell me.

[A Horse With No Name]

33 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'd go with an XTS V-Sport over a CTS V-Sport any day of the week... so I'm with you there.   I'm one of the few who really like the way they look... plus... air ride suspension. 

And GMC sold over 100k Denalis so far this year.... but it doesn't matter because it is unlikely someone is cross shopping nearly anything with a Denali badge against nearly anything with a Lincoln badge..... the only direct comparison I could see is Navigator to Yukon Denali, and the Navigator is cheaper. 

Rather than chase volume, I would rather see Lincoln be a purveyor of boutique automobiles of fantastic, untouchable quality, but appealing only to a rather selective audience lest they become *sniff* "common". 

And actually I agree with you here. Were more car makers to think like Boutique car makers, the world would be a whole lot better.

Subaru and Mazda are two of my favorite brands because they do exactly that, understand their role as a niche automaker.

It's also what I love about VW/Audi/Porsche/etc. when they feel free to become unfettered and build the product they really want to build.

GM's success over the last decade has come partially because they are building the product they actually want to build...same with Jeep....

I have no objection to the same thing happening with Lincoln....

[surreal1272]

20 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yes, GM needs to dial back production... Just like Ford and all the others have needed to do in the past.

Here's nice look at incentives currently. 

http://www.realcartips.com/news/0743-biggest-car-rebates.shtml

[Cmicasa the Great]

6 minutes ago, dfelt said:

OK, Too many things on the brain to think about what feature is in my Escalade ESV Platinum that is not in the others. Pretty please just tell me.

LOL.. Cut and Sewn Steering Wheel Pad, instead of that rubber-maid BS

[David]

4 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

LOL.. Cut and Sewn Steering Wheel Pad, instead of that rubber-maid BS

So very true and it is such a nice comfy feeling on long road trips. I love the wood sections that are also cut to have nubs that actually allow for better control and grip on the steering wheel too!

[Cmicasa the Great]

My thought really is that  Yes.. Cadillac most likely kept the XTS going til 2018 because it saw that  Lincoln was gonna come right out the gate with an Airport Shuttle called Continental

 

[Drew Dowdell]

22 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

This is where we differ. I prefer the CTS-VSport over the XTS-Vsport because of my love of Sport. The CTS-VSport might actually be the best of all the configs as it is the Goldilocks "Just Right" kinda Porridge. BUT!!! If U are looking for the space.. the power.. the name.. and AWD, then U are gonna go XTS-VSport over the CTS-VSport all day. If comparing the XTS-V Sport to the Continenal 3.0T.. again.. XTS-VSport all day. They are the same car.. except the Caddy is a Caddy.. prettier.. has more power.. faster (based on MT Tests of both)... not a Lincoln

I am far too stressed out to go with a high strung car right now. I'd end up in a tree. I need comfort, quiet, smooth, relaxing...... But I still want my torque.

[A Horse With No Name]

12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I am far too stressed out to go with a high strung car right now. I'd end up in a tree. I need comfort, quiet, smooth, relaxing...... But I still want my torque.

I can relate to that.....

[Drew Dowdell]

35 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

My thought really is that  Yes.. Cadillac most likely kept the XTS going til 2018 because it saw that  Lincoln was gonna come right out the gate with an Airport Shuttle called Continental

 

My thought is far more cynical. I think they kept it going because they need something high dollar to share with Impala in order to justify Impala's existence.

37 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I am far too stressed out to go with a high strung car right now. I'd end up in a tree. I need comfort, quiet, smooth, relaxing...... But I still want my torque.

I wonder if the XTS will get the 8 speed or 9 speed and if that will address my complaint of the lack of torque in the non-turbo model.

[FordCosworth]

OMG...

177 Day Supply of Camaro???? 121 of the Cruze.  

Makes sense for the layoffs at Lordstown ( Cruze ) and Lansing ( ATS/CTS and Camaro )

 

[TaurusSHO]

16 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

My thought is far more cynical. I think they kept it going because they need something high dollar to share with Impala in order to justify Impala's existence.

I wonder if the XTS will get the 8 speed or 9 speed and if that will address my complaint of the lack of torque in the non-turbo model.

Isn't the Lacrosse's extra volume enough to justify the Impala?  With the XTS gone I'm sure the Lacrosse would have a noticeable sales gain as well, which I thought was the original plan.

[A Horse With No Name]

33 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

OMG...

177 Day Supply of Camaro???? 121 of the Cruze.  

Makes sense for the layoffs at Lordstown ( Cruze ) and Lansing ( ATS/CTS and Camaro )

 

A hefty supply for sure!

Local Chevrolet dealer has enormous incentives on Cruze....

49 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

I wonder if the XTS will get the 8 speed or 9 speed and if that will address my complaint of the lack of torque in the non-turbo model.

An interesting question...I really loved the 8 speed in the 300 I drove....

[Cmicasa the Great]

26 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Isn't the Lacrosse's extra volume enough to justify the Impala?  With the XTS gone I'm sure the Lacrosse would have a noticeable sales gain as well, which I thought was the original plan.

 

Why? And Why do some auto enthusiasts automatically assume this stuff? Yeah.. I'm a normal car shopper walking into the Caddy dealer.. "Oh.. so U don't have the XTS anymore???  Well FINE!!!. I guess I'm gonna mozy on over that Buick dealership and get a Lacrosse.. since they are on the same platform (well used to be) ." 

BS!!! I literally have had several XTS owners stare me in the face and call me a liar when I told them that not only was my Impala the same car underneath as theirs.. but that LaX across the street was too.. And the old Malibu and Regal weren't far away from that relation either.

This can be duplicated with an Impala or LaX owner as well. Point is that the market now dictates that while GM have a stepping stone hierarchy, they more so need to market each brand as an individual unit not connected to the other.. even Chevy vs GMC. Because lets face it... many people just don't make the connection.. and not to mention that there are some who absolutely have allegiance to one brand with the GM hierarchy over the other.. especially pertaining to Chevy/Buick/GMC. Cadillac very often gets a pass on that logic as it was always the top dog.. where as the Chevy Brand for all intents competed directly with Pontiac/Oakland.. Buick/Marquette with Olds/Viking (and Saturn) and GMC with Hummer. Either way GM would be a fool to not have at least one "CAR" in its Caddy line-up that is not an upgraded Chevy. The E2XX platform should be in every division without question. Quite frankly I think for every  Alpha and Omega thru out Cadillac there can be an E2xx and C1XX opposing it. 

[Drew Dowdell]

48 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Isn't the Lacrosse's extra volume enough to justify the Impala?  With the XTS gone I'm sure the Lacrosse would have a noticeable sales gain as well, which I thought was the original plan.

I wouldn't be surprised of further platform consolidation in the near future. Even if the XTS goes to 2020, that's only 3 model years away. 

By that time:

SS is dead.

XTS is dead.

Lacrosse would be on its first refresh of the current body.

Impala.....????

CTS become CT#

CT6 would be on its first refresh of the current body.

Some other Omegas come on the scene.

[Cmicasa the Great]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I wouldn't be surprised of further platform consolidation in the near future. Even if the XTS goes to 2020, that's only 3 model years away. 

By that time:

SS is dead.

XTS is dead.

Lacrosse would be on its first refresh of the current body.

Impala.....????

CTS become CT#

CT6 would be on its first refresh of the current body.

Some other Omegas come on the scene.

 

I still believe that the Impala is going to go Omega or Alpha-L. It makes a lot more sense to consolidate the Impala with the SS leaving a larger car than the Malibu with a real performance edge.. at an affordable price. Because I said affordable I'm leaning more towards Alpha-L as the size of the CTS and SS are almost spot on.. 2015 Cadillac CTS wheel base 114.6 vs Chevy SS wheel base being 114.8. An Impala with a slightly more legroom in the back over the current CTS.. (which I actually think is moving to Omega when the CT4/5 debuts ) with a Turbo 4, V6 and V8 or TTV6 would be quite nice

[TaurusSHO]

56 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

 

Why? And Why do some auto enthusiasts automatically assume this stuff? Yeah.. I'm a normal car shopper walking into the Caddy dealer.. "Oh.. so U don't have the XTS anymore???  Well FINE!!!. I guess I'm gonna mozy on over that Buick dealership and get a Lacrosse.. since they are on the same platform (well used to be) ." 

BS!!! I literally have had several XTS owners stare me in the face and call me a liar when I told them that not only was my Impala the same car underneath as theirs.. but that LaX across the street was too.. And the old Malibu and Regal weren't far away from that relation either.

This can be duplicated with an Impala or LaX owner as well. Point is that the market now dictates that while GM have a stepping stone hierarchy, they more so need to market each brand as an individual unit not connected to the other.. even Chevy vs GMC. Because lets face it... many people just don't make the connection.. and not to mention that there are some who absolutely have allegiance to one brand with the GM hierarchy over the other.. especially pertaining to Chevy/Buick/GMC. Cadillac very often gets a pass on that logic as it was always the top dog.. where as the Chevy Brand for all intents competed directly with Pontiac/Oakland.. Buick/Marquette with Olds/Viking (and Saturn) and GMC with Hummer. Either way GM would be a fool to not have at least one "CAR" in its Caddy line-up that is not an upgraded Chevy. The E2XX platform should be in every division without question. Quite frankly I think for every  Alpha and Omega thru out Cadillac there can be an E2xx and C1XX opposing it. 

Of course not everyone will think that way, but some people would definitely move to the Lacrosse since it serves the same purpose as the XTS.  Ultimately, I believe the XTS was kept around for a few more years because the CTS is not selling like they had hoped. 

[A Horse With No Name]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Here's nice look at incentives currently. 

http://www.realcartips.com/news/0743-biggest-car-rebates.shtml

Oddly enough nothing that I want to own is on that list...

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Oddly enough nothing that I want to own is on that list...

Cars desirable to enthusiasts rarely get incentives.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

35 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Cars desirable to enthusiasts rarely get incentives.

I don't know, I recall a $25K discount on ZL1 a year ago.  

Is that not something enthusiasts desire?

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/11/2015-chevy-camaro-z28-insanely.html

[Drew Dowdell]

Rarely - happening at low rates of occurrence. Gosh you try to nit pick everything

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

51 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Rarely - happening at low rates of occurrence. Gosh you try to nit pick everything

Actually happens far more than you think.  The ZL1 was discounted for many months at $10K or more.  Now, we see the new ZL1 come to market at $10K under previous MSRP.  We also see the new Camaro sitting with 6 months worth of product on lots.  Many blame price there as well, and I think it is safe to assume bigger incentives coming.  So, call it pit nicking all you like, but I just report facts that get brushed aside around here.

[Cmicasa the Great]

4 hours ago, TaurusSHO said:

Of course not everyone will think that way, but some people would definitely move to the Lacrosse since it serves the same purpose as the XTS.  Ultimately, I believe the XTS was kept around for a few more years because the CTS is not selling like they had hoped. 

A long time ago I preached the same thing.. but the error of my ways was corrected when I truly became enthralled in luxury items. Everything from cars to hotels, watches to ties.. even food. As much as some try and belittle Cadillac, mostly because its, ironically, American.. it is the real deal.. and has been for the last 10 years. The XTS was necessary to retain the traditional buyer at Cadillac.. aka the older, more affluent ones while they readied the CT6. More interesting is the insane idea that they would discontinue the car in 2016..; three model years into its life. 2018 is still the planned kill date.. but by then the CT8 will have debuted, for sale in 2019. Don't forget that the names will change as well. Perfect time for the changeover.

BTW.. if Cadillac was trying to supplement CTS sales they would have simply gave it the same product mix it had before, market the vehicle for all of its excellence and added another CUV, as that is what truly moves the sales needle now. I think that Cadillac is currently letting all but the XT5 and CT6 float on as they ready the others for the name change. Marketing any of the three other cars would be a waste of money going forward

[Drew Dowdell]

1 car and the zl1 is a niche within a niche and was at the end of its product cycle with a fantastic new model already seen.  Ford's answer to the same issue is to hit the speed dial button for Hertz.

Miata, WRX, Golf R, Civic SI.... Don't get much in incentives.

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

1 car and the zl1 is a niche within a niche and was at the end of its product cycle with a fantastic new model already seen.  Ford's answer to the same issue is to hit the speed dial button for Hertz.

Miata, WRX, Golf R, Civic SI.... Don't get much in incentives.

This^^. Why some want to ignore and brush aside the fleet equation and the fact that Fords was well above the industry average for most of the year, is beyond me. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

1 car and the zl1 is a niche within a niche and was at the end of its product cycle with a fantastic new model already seen.  Ford's answer to the same issue is to hit the speed dial button for Hertz.

Miata, WRX, Golf R, Civic SI.... Don't get much in incentives.

What is also missed, in this talk of incentives and backed up by the link I provided, is that Ford and Lincoln populate the top half of the incentive scale right now and were running heavy incentives this year up until August on cars like the Mustang so it's a little hypocritical to bring up niche cars like the ZL1 or even the Camaro as a whole when you see what the competition is doing throughout the year.

[A Horse With No Name]

11 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

1 car and the zl1 is a niche within a niche and was at the end of its product cycle with a fantastic new model already seen.  Ford's answer to the same issue is to hit the speed dial button for Hertz.

Miata, WRX, Golf R, Civic SI.... Don't get much in incentives.

Those cars have zero on the hood but per the link Surreal provided Focus ST has three grand on the hood and zero percent financing.

Local Subaru dealer had a WRX equipped just the way i wanted it....they offered me $200 off and a cup of coffee....I told them they would have to do better than that.

Dealer must have been right because two hours alter the WRX had a new owner (and it wasn't me)....I did get a cup of coffee though.

42 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

What is also missed, in this talk of incentives and backed up by the link I provided, is that Ford and Lincoln populate the top half of the incentive scale right now and were running heavy incentives this year up until August on cars like the Mustang so it's a little hypocritical to bring up niche cars like the ZL1 or even the Camaro as a whole when you see what the competition is doing throughout the year.

Which is one huge reason that the Fiesta and Focus ST while excellent, are not on my list.  They depreciate more in the first year of ownership than a Golf R or WRX does in 4 or 5....

Edited December 15, 2016 by A Horse With No Name

[A Horse With No Name]

I would like to thank everyone for participating in this thread, and invite people to read my self exile post in the lounge.

Learned a couple of really important things about myself here, and I found this thread oddly refreshing.

First of all, there is a part of me that really would like as Drew said a really comfortable car that pampers you a bit.

Secondly, I got hit upside the head with a 2 x 4 (or maybe 2 x 12 floor joist) in a really positive way. For the first time in a decade, I have an American car that I not only like looking at...but has some real lust factor built in. There are a lot of cars like the Shelby GT350 R that I love but Cannot see owning, or cars like the Cruze which are fine cars but do not excite me to the point of wanting to spend coin to buy them.

Don't laugh but....Cmicassa is right, and dfelt also...Buick...I am smitten by....the 2017 LaCrosse.

Better looking than most of the luxury cars we are talking about here, affordable, parts will be cheaper than the TLX and IS that I also like, interior materials and design are arguably better than  the Acura or Lexus...comes with a V6, and a good V6 standard.....hmmm....

Probably the only dude on the planet cross shopping a WRX, Golf R, TLX, and Lacrosse. I need to do some hard thinking.  I tend to keep cars for a very long time so I want to be very sure of this decision.

Secondly, a specific critique of what I dislike about modern luxury cars in general and the Conti in particular.  I do not think modern luxury car design wears feminine design language well. I finally found what I profoundly dislike about not just the Conti/MKZ but the Infinity lineup, the SUV's of Lexus, and even the Bentley that Frisky Dingo posted on the what would you buy instead thread in the lounge.

All of them have feminine design language IMHO that works poorly with the design.  I may not be making much sense here, but look at a 1960's continental and also a modern Nissan GTR.  Both of them are very masculine designs with a lot of masculine design language. That plays really well with modern luxury car design IMHO.

Drew's comment about David Beckham in a suit was right on the money...

With that...see you all in May or June.

Regards,

Chris

[Drew Dowdell]

@A Horse With No Name there's no harm in being smitten by a 2017 Lacrosse.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

10 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

What is also missed, in this talk of incentives and backed up by the link I provided, is that Ford and Lincoln populate the top half of the incentive scale right now and were running heavy incentives this year up until August on cars like the Mustang so it's a little hypocritical to bring up niche cars like the ZL1 or even the Camaro as a whole when you see what the competition is doing throughout the year.

 

My response was to a remark about enthusiasts cars rarely getting incentives, and I used an extreme example.  The ZL1 was selling for $10K under MSRP for many months, back when the previous gen Camaro was still in lots. And as mentioned in my link, as high as $25K eventually discounted.  Sorry, no car I can ever recall came close to discounting over 1/3 of it's price.

 

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Which is one huge reason that the Fiesta and Focus ST while excellent, are not on my list.  They depreciate more in the first year of ownership than a Golf R or WRX does in 4 or 5....

In all fairness the R is in a league of its own.. well the RS populates that party as well but the GTI is more comparable and it's depreciated pretty hard as well(so my friend has said about his 2012 GTI). 

[Suaviloquent]

Okay, so the magazines contend the Lincoln drives well enough to actually comptete with the CT6. Instead of bashing the Lincoln, would you actually consider what kind of expectations Lincoln imparted on the press, and then how the vehicle delivered on those promises?

 

What I'm surprised by, is that such mainstream engineering can go so far as to actually competing with cars that are supposed to be premium because of the badge. And that CT6? It weighs 1000 lbs less than the S-Class. Yet it only weighs 161 pounds less than the Conti. And compared to the S-Class. The CT6 is missing an entire pedigree of luxury. Continetal atleast is a well understood name. And Lincoln has that history of the nameplate, and what it once used to be decades ago.

 

CT6 - it's got a stupid name that shows how far Cadillac is willing to copy Germans. The CT6 with it's premium engineering, all the tricks thrown at it...the best that GM has, fails to live up to the hype. I like it. But it's interior is cheap, and I'd wish the car weighed the same as the Lincoln, because then they'd have put more padding on the doors, better leather on the seats, and real metal on the speakers. It was supposed to be the killer American, luxury sedan.

The Conti surprises, because it delivers exactly what Lincoln promised. Lincoln didn't water down expectations. They defined their core competency and their vision for their brand, and executed. And that is cumulative sum of all the automotive opinion that exists. But please do go one raging how Lincoln gets a free pass. And really, the Conti isn't that special. But it is a helluva lot better than what people think or remember of even recent Lincolns.

Few, like 1% of the people buying the CT6 will consider it a performance sedan. And the XTS sells a lot because it's a fleet queen itself, and it's been on market for 3.5 years. Don't forget that. XTS or MKS/MKT is the vehicle you ride, because you're probably going to ride to the cemetary anyways.

 

 

[surreal1272]

13 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

My response was to a remark about enthusiasts cars rarely getting incentives, and I used an extreme example.  The ZL1 was selling for $10K under MSRP for many months, back when the previous gen Camaro was still in lots. And as mentioned in my link, as high as $25K eventually discounted.  Sorry, no car I can ever recall came close to discounting over 1/3 of it's price.

 

No worries. I stand by my post (which was backed up with facts) and you will stand by yours. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

Okay, so the magazines contend the Lincoln drives well enough to actually comptete with the CT6. Instead of bashing the Lincoln, would you actually consider what kind of expectations Lincoln imparted on the press, and then how the vehicle delivered on those promises?

 

What I'm surprised by, is that such mainstream engineering can go so far as to actually competing with cars that are supposed to be premium because of the badge. And that CT6? It weighs 1000 lbs less than the S-Class. Yet it only weighs 161 pounds less than the Conti. And compared to the S-Class. The CT6 is missing an entire pedigree of luxury. Continetal atleast is a well understood name. And Lincoln has that history of the nameplate, and what it once used to be decades ago.

 

CT6 - it's got a stupid name that shows how far Cadillac is willing to copy Germans. The CT6 with it's premium engineering, all the tricks thrown at it...the best that GM has, fails to live up to the hype. I like it. But it's interior is cheap, and I'd wish the car weighed the same as the Lincoln, because then they'd have put more padding on the doors, better leather on the seats, and real metal on the speakers. It was supposed to be the killer American, luxury sedan.

The Conti surprises, because it delivers exactly what Lincoln promised. Lincoln didn't water down expectations. They defined their core competency and their vision for their brand, and executed. And that is cumulative sum of all the automotive opinion that exists. But please do go one raging how Lincoln gets a free pass. And really, the Conti isn't that special. But it is a helluva lot better than what people think or remember of even recent Lincolns.

Few, like 1% of the people buying the CT6 will consider it a performance sedan. And the XTS sells a lot because it's a fleet queen itself, and it's been on market for 3.5 years. Don't forget that. XTS or MKS/MKT is the vehicle you ride, because you're probably going to ride to the cemetary anyways.

 

 

What you seem to be forgetting is that the name "Continental" used to mean something, 40 years ago, before Ford neglected it, much like Cadillac did with the DeVille name (and thus highlighting why they did not bring that nameplate back). I can take or leave the letter/number based naming schemes but most folks these days don't even recall when either of those names meant something for the reason I just mentioned. Most have only seen how those cars got trashed by Ford and GM for four decades. Just offering a different. perspective on this naming thing and why bringing back an old name sometimes isn't the best idea.

Edited December 16, 2016 by surreal1272

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

We all want to sound like we are well versed in automotive history when we repeat over-used clichés about how Lincoln and Cadillac were once great, and have fallen far from the classic era that defined them.  Some, more than others, which is fine.  But what we all conveniently forget is that there was almost zero competition when those products roamed our streets.  That is 99% of it.  Today we have luxury brands from everywhere in the world, cutting their slice out of the luxury pie.

 

Every single Lincoln or Cadillac produced today is far superior in pretty much any metric that one would use to define luxury from either era.  Ride, features, materials, NVH, power, handling, safety, the list goes on and on.  So comparing old to new, you need to first define your metrics for comparison. I have driven some classic old Lincolns and Cadillac’s, and apart from their cool factor, they pretty much all sucked and were beasts to drive.  So claiming Lincoln and Cadillac have fallen from a dinosaur era, may be a popular overplayed cliché, but it is not true.  They may have fallen from one’s preference of style or coolness or sales volumes, but in terms of an engineered product, sorry, no way. I see Cadillac and Lincoln making great strides to get back as much slice as each can, both with different paths.  Debating which path is the best approach may occupy many of our threads, but in the end, both are succeeding at different rates of speed.  I grew up riding in Cadillac’s.  I now help engineer Lincoln’s.  Yes, I am biased, but my bias starts with America first.

[FordCosworth]

14 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

My response was to a remark about enthusiasts cars rarely getting incentives, and I used an extreme example.  The ZL1 was selling for $10K under MSRP for many months, back when the previous gen Camaro was still in lots. And as mentioned in my link, as high as $25K eventually discounted.  Sorry, no car I can ever recall came close to discounting over 1/3 of it's price.

 

Don't be sorry. It was/is GM that is sorry...sorry for believing they could sell the ZLI ( and Z/28 ) for the prices they were asking.

I also cannot recall a car being discounted 1/3rd of its MSRP. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by FordCosworth

[surreal1272]

I will simply counter one "extreme example" from one Camaro dealership (on an outgoing model nonetheless) with 25% off of a current year Mustang GT. 

http://www.tedbritt.com/inventory/new-ford-mustang-gt-stock-c65175/

 

or how about up to 30% off of a new F-150?

http://www.mainlandford.com/30-off/

 

I guess, based on Cosworths logic, that Ford should be sorry too for believing that they could ask so much for their cars and trucks. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by surreal1272

[FordCosworth]

22 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I will simply counter one "extreme example" from one Camaro dealership (on an outgoing model nonetheless) with 25% off of a current year Mustang GT. 

http://www.tedbritt.com/inventory/new-ford-mustang-gt-stock-c65175/

 

or how about up to 30% off of a new F-150?

http://www.mainlandford.com/30-off/

 

I guess, based on Cosworths logic, that Ford should be sorry too for believing that they could ask so much for their cars and trucks. 

Dealership discounts vs Manufactures? That Z/28 I refer to was factory incentives.  

LMAO! Keep reaching surreal

Edited December 16, 2016 by FordCosworth

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

Dealership discounts vs Manufactures? That Z/28 I refer to was factory incentives.  

LMAO! Keep reaching surreal

Proof because the only links found regarding the (at the time) outgoing Z/28 was a from a handful of dealerships and again, those were dealership mark downs and not factory, as you claim here. There were no factory incentives of that size. Keep reaching yourself because I find it funny that you two harp on a single outgoing model while ignoring the 25% off of a current year Mustang GT (of which I provided proof).

 

 

Btw, since you want to go the incentive route, feel free to reference my link a few posts above regarding those and note the makes in the top 25 or so. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by surreal1272

[FordCosworth]

31 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Proof because the only links found regarding the (at the time) outgoing Z/28 was a from a handful of dealerships and again, those were dealership mark downs and not factory, as you claim here. There were no factory incentives of that size. Keep reaching yourself because I find it funny that you two harp on a single outgoing model while ignoring the 25% off of a current year Mustang GT (of which I provided proof).

 

 

Btw, since you want to go the incentive route, feel free to reference my link a few posts above regarding those and note the makes in the top 25 or so. 

 

 

You forgot that easy huh? Proof was posted plenty of times on the SPECIAL EDITION Z/28 having rebates of 25k.

I find it funny you compare a pedestrian Mustang to the track monster Z/28. That illogic is the best Christmas present one could ever receive

And you opened this can of " incentives " - the route was already paved thanks to you.

 

 

 

 

[surreal1272]

8 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

You forgot that easy huh? Proof was posted plenty of times on the SPECIAL EDITION Z/28 having rebates of 25k.

I find it funny you compare a pedestrian Mustang to the track monster Z/28. That illogic is the best Christmas present one could ever receive

And you opened this can of " incentives " - the route was already paved thanks to you.

 

 

 

 

Actually Wings opened it and I did see those "incentives" and none offered proof of it being from the manufacturer. The even better present is that you think the incentives of an, again, outgoing niche model car is somehow worse than a mainstream "best selling" current year and model car. The fact that you can't or refuse to see the difference there is a bonus gift. 

 

Again, feel free to reference the link provided regarding current incentives by make and model. It's rather eye opening. 

 

I don't expect the two biggest Ford fans here to agree with what was presented but understand that your agreement is not a requirement for it to be true. I stand by my statement and you will stand by yours. Now, seeing as how none of this has anything to do with the Continental, as someone once said, topic please. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by surreal1272

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

My example was in regards to enthusiast car discounts, not trucks.