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Mercedez Benz News Mercedes X-Class to be Xed Out

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5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The problem with the X-class is Mercedes owners aren’t going to buy a truck made by Nissan and Nissan owners aren’t going to pay Mercedes pricing.

REALITY, Mercedes is not all things to everyone. People who want trucks want it from a real truck company, not a Luxury car company, attempting to be a Chevrolet of all things with a model for every nook and cranny. 

Double Reality is that MB is going to have to stop wasting money on pie in the sky have something for everyone and get back to what they made money on, a focused luxury / performance line.

Toyota / Chevrolet buyers buy Toyota / Chevrolet or equal. The Badge snobs who bought the few A, B & C auto's are turning them back in off lease in record numbers and going elsewhere as only 36% are retained. This dumps allot of luxury level Auto's on the used car market and yet there are only so much a down market can absorb. 

Welcome to the 21st century.

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8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Good lord, I hope the the crossover coupes get the axe. I have such an irrational hatred for those things. 

Agreed. They are the most useless class of vehicles out there not named "Smart".

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4 hours ago, dfelt said:

REALITY, Mercedes is not all things to everyone. People who want trucks want it from a real truck company, not a Luxury car company, attempting to be a Chevrolet of all things with a model for every nook and cranny. 

Double Reality is that MB is going to have to stop wasting money on pie in the sky have something for everyone and get back to what they made money on, a focused luxury / performance line.

Toyota / Chevrolet buyers buy Toyota / Chevrolet or equal. The Badge snobs who bought the few A, B & C auto's are turning them back in off lease in record numbers and going elsewhere as only 36% are retained. This dumps allot of luxury level Auto's on the used car market and yet there are only so much a down market can absorb. 

Welcome to the 21st century.

Daimler is the largest truck maker in the world.  That is the most “real” truck company there is.

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Agreed. They are the most useless class of vehicles out there not named "Smart".

Useless but people pay a premium for them.  4 door coupes are useless too but every keeps making them.

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9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Daimler is the largest truck maker in the world.  That is the most “real” truck company there is.

Useless but people pay a premium for them.  4 door coupes are useless too but every keeps making them.

:facepalm::glare: Ya know we are talking consumer trucks, NOT Class 8 Commercial Trucks that the public DOES NOT buy or Drive!

So let's stop the goal post movement and stay with the program of Consumer retail trucks, again NOT COMMERCIAL TRUCK SALES!

People HAVE NOT paid a premium for a Luxury pickup truck unless it is from FORD, GENERAL MOTORS or RAM!

And NO we are not talking about the rare 6x6 G-Wagon Pickup truck that was one made of only.

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34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Daimler is the largest truck maker in the world.  That is the most “real” truck company there is.

Useless but people pay a premium for them.  4 door coupes are useless too but every keeps making them.

Maybe you missed the part where I cared. The sales of most of them are dismal and they are utterly useless as CUVs. 

 

As as far as your truck maker remark, LMAO! We are not talking about box trucks, cab overs, etc.We are talking about PICK UPS and despite their moniker of being the largest truck maker in the world, Daimler can’t find a market for their dressed up Nissan, hence them dumping it. I mean, you said if Benz wanted to, they could yet they don’t because they can’t. 

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Ford, Chevy Ram have sold trucks because no one really put a competitive entrant in there.  If Toyota went all in on the Tundra and made it superior to the domestic trucks they would start to take market share, just the way the Camry shut down the domestic sedan market.   The Camry did that because it was good, the Tundra is not competitive, thus hasn't.

And if Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, Tesla or whoever wanted to go into a luxury pick up market they would steal some sales.  Problem is what % of F150's are that top trim vs the 100,000s of work truck trims sold?  When you have a huge quantity to suck up most of the engineering, it is easy to do a top trim level and sell a few of them.  Just like BMW can do an M5 because 528i's exist.  

It isn't that Daimler with all their truck knowledge couldn't build the best pick up out there, but how much volume would they get on a Mercedes truck that was $70,000 base?  If Ford made the F150 start at $70,000 then sales would drop from 700,000 a year to about 25,000 a year, and there would be no business case for it.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Ford, Chevy Ram have sold trucks because no one really put a competitive entrant in there.

Those are the competition : Ford <> Chevy <> GMC <> Dodge. They compete, and hard, against EACH OTHER.

nissan / toyoyo are after-thoughts, market-wise.

If Ford made the F150 start at $70,000 then sales would drop from 700,000 a year


2018 F-Series was 909,330.

Edited by balthazar
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Ford, Chevy Ram have sold trucks because no one really put a competitive entrant in there.  If Toyota went all in on the Tundra and made it superior to the domestic trucks they would start to take market share, just the way the Camry shut down the domestic sedan market.   The Camry did that because it was good, the Tundra is not competitive, thus hasn't.

And if Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, Tesla or whoever wanted to go into a luxury pick up market they would steal some sales.  Problem is what % of F150's are that top trim vs the 100,000s of work truck trims sold?  When you have a huge quantity to suck up most of the engineering, it is easy to do a top trim level and sell a few of them.  Just like BMW can do an M5 because 528i's exist.  

It isn't that Daimler with all their truck knowledge couldn't build the best pick up out there, but how much volume would they get on a Mercedes truck that was $70,000 base?  If Ford made the F150 start at $70,000 then sales would drop from 700,000 a year to about 25,000 a year, and there would be no business case for it.

Mmmmkay dude. Whatever you say. 

 

For the record, truck prices have gone through the roof yet keep selling like hot cakes. Seems like some folks don’t mind paying $70K for a Ford or RAM. What is hilarious is that you compare that number against a vapor ware Benz pickup that would not have started anywhere near $70K. Just more of that imaginary pricing of yours with a hint of bar moving. Like you said, if they wanted to do it, they would. Alas, they can’t. 

 

 In regards to Toyota, cars like the Camry and Corolla sell because of legendary reliability yet rank near the bottom in every comparison out there. In other words, they haven’t gone all in with those for years now meaning that “going all in” isn’t always the magic bullet towards cracking certain markets. To even bring a Camry up like it’s comparable to what’s going on with MERCEDES is laughable deflection on your part. Playing that fanboy card pretty hard today. 

Edited by surreal1272
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@smk4565—Your top trim sales argument can be used against Mercedes as well. How many actual top trim Benzs are sold versus the pleather and plastic entry and base models of there’s. I’m willing to bet the top trim F150 percentage is higher than most Benzs out there. Again, they sell like hot cakes and I always see dozens of top trim models on various lots around. They wouldn’t keep getting them if they weren’t selling. 

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44 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565—Your top trim sales argument can be used against Mercedes as well. How many actual top trim Benzs are sold versus the pleather and plastic entry and base models of there’s. I’m willing to bet the top trim F150 percentage is higher than most Benzs out there. Again, they sell like hot cakes and I always see dozens of top trim models on various lots around. They wouldn’t keep getting them if they weren’t selling. 

It isn't about percentage it is about price point.  Why do Cadillac and Lincoln not have pickup trucks?  Both tried and failed, Lincoln tried twice and failed.   Lexus and Infiniti never tried.

Mercedes can't find enough volume for a truck on their own, it would have to platform share with another vehicle, which is what they tried with the X-class and it didn't work.  They could try to convert a GLS into a unibody pick up, but a GLS is expensive, and how many trucks would they sell at that price point?  I don't see that as being a smart business move.

Toyota if they got their act together on the Tundra I think could make a Lexus truck because even if they sold 20,000 a year, it wouldn't matter because the Tundra is eating up all the R&D cost.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It isn't about percentage it is about price point.  Why do Cadillac and Lincoln not have pickup trucks?  Both tried and failed, Lincoln tried twice and failed.   Lexus and Infiniti never tried.

Mercedes can't find enough volume for a truck on their own, it would have to platform share with another vehicle, which is what they tried with the X-class and it didn't work.  They could try to convert a GLS into a unibody pick up, but a GLS is expensive, and how many trucks would they sell at that price point?  I don't see that as being a smart business move.

Toyota if they got their act together on the Tundra I think could make a Lexus truck because even if they sold 20,000 a year, it wouldn't matter because the Tundra is eating up all the R&D cost.

Again, mmmkay dude. 

 

The Cadillac Escalade EXT actually did well (for what it was) but it was also not a full blown pick up. Once GM decided to scrap the Avalanche, there was no chance for the Caddy. Still did way better than Lincoln attempts and still better than the vapor ware attempt by Benz. I’m thinking that’s the only reason for your deflection. The domestics at least made an attempt (with some success by one of them) while the best or nothing said “we got nothing”. And that’s the point here. Mercedes could not even get it off the ground, even with a borrowed platform to work with. Make all the excuses you want regarding anyone else not sporting that Tri Star on the hood but facts are facts. 

Edited by surreal1272
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7 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Again, mmmkay dude. 

 

The Cadillac Escalade EXT actually did well (for what it was) but it was also not a full blown pick up. Once GM decided to scrap the Avalanche, there was no chance for the Caddy. Still did way better than Lincoln attempts and still better than the vapor ware attempt by Benz. I’m thinking that’s the only reason for your deflection. The domestics at least made an attempt (with some success by one of them) while the best or nothing said “we got nothing”. And that’s the point here. Mercedes could not even get it off the ground, even with a borrowed platform to work with. Make all the excuses you want regarding anyone else not sporting that Tri Star on the hood but facts are facts. 

What were the sales of the Lincoln Mark LT compared to the Cadillac Escalade EXT?

Also, I am not sure if Cadillac CAN make a true luxury pickup given the predominance of the GMC Sierra Denali, which already fetch Cadillac prices.

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13 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Again, mmmkay dude. 

 

The Cadillac Escalade EXT actually did well (for what it was) but it was also not a full blown pick up. Once GM decided to scrap the Avalanche, there was no chance for the Caddy. Still did way better than Lincoln attempts and still better than the vapor ware attempt by Benz. I’m thinking that’s the only reason for your deflection. The domestics at least made an attempt (with some success by one of them) while the best or nothing said “we got nothing”. And that’s the point here. Mercedes could not even get it off the ground, even with a borrowed platform to work with. Make all the excuses you want regarding anyone else not sporting that Tri Star on the hood but facts are facts. 

I never thought a Mercedes pick up was a good idea to begin with, and I certainly wouldn't use any thing from Nissan/Renault as a platform.  That is why I didn't think it would work here.  If it worked overseas they could have done  a gen 2 on their own platform and brought it to the USA.  Doing it the way they did was a way to put their toe in the water with little R&D expense, I think it is a smart move to dump the pick up and focus on sedans and SUVs which is where they make their money.

6 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

What were the sales of the Lincoln Mark LT compared to the Cadillac Escalade EXT?

Also, I am not sure if Cadillac CAN make a true luxury pickup given the predominance of the GMC Sierra Denali, which already fetch Cadillac prices.

And imagine Cadillac or Lincoln making a pickup without using the Silverado or F150 chassis.  And see how the business case for that would work.  GM can't even make a business case for a Camaro that rides on an existing platform.   And it is every carmaker, they see crossovers as profit, and that is where the money will go, and the Detroit 3 have full size trucks also which works here, not outside of the USA, thus they have to put all their other money in crossovers or whatever China demands or regulates.  

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I think it is great that they are killing the X-class (and SLC also).  I think they should kill the S-class convertible, to make more room for the SL.  I don't think the CLS serves any purpose, they can kill that too.  I'd like to see C and E-class convertibles stay since they are killing SLC and S-class convertible.  They can kill the C-class wagon too.  Cut the fat, make a Maybach G-wagon instead.  I could see a Maybach E580, which would be pretty bad ass.   And that is easy stuff to do, just load up existing models that are already paid for.  Heck that has kept FCA in business for the past 10 years.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I think could make a Lexus truck because even if they sold 20,000 a year, it wouldn't matter because the Tundra is eating up all the R&D cost.

So a "rebadged toyoter"; a marketplace also-ran? That's you suggestion for success???

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Good lord, I hope the the crossover coupes get the axe. I have such an irrational hatred for those things. 

No suck luck the BMW X8 is a go, and it probably won't cost any more to build than an X7, yet it will sell for $130,000 and the BMW bored will be like

spacer.png

as they count their profits

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

So a "rebadged toyoter"; a marketplace also-ran? That's you suggestion for success???

IF Toyota got their act together on the Tundra.  The current Tundra is a joke, it is dated as can be, has been on market for 12 years, has a 5.7 liter engine making 3 liter V6 power.  Toyota has 10s of billions of dollars in cash on hand.  If they launched a Tundra that was class leading in ride, handling, towing, hauling, fuel economy, refinement, and reliability (which  they have the money to do), THEN they can do a Lexus version.  But in their current state of affairs no, their full size truck entrant is a joke, and there is no excuse for it, they aren't on an FCA shoestring budget, they are the richest car company in the world.

I actually think if Toyota set a goal and made a 20 year commitment that they could get the Tundra to outsell the F150.  The Camry only needed about 15 years to be the #1 selling car, the RAV4 needed about 15 years to be #1 selling SUV.

Edited by smk4565

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1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

What were the sales of the Lincoln Mark LT compared to the Cadillac Escalade EXT?

Also, I am not sure if Cadillac CAN make a true luxury pickup given the predominance of the GMC Sierra Denali, which already fetch Cadillac prices.

Sales were not through the roof, by any means, but the assertion made by SMK was that others “failed” (even though the Slade was around for 2 generations) so it’s okay for Benz to give up on their vapor ware. The best or nothing. Now I get it lol. 

 

And again with the excuses by @smk4565 about what they have available. They are the largest truck maker in the world but nowhere in that huge parts bin of theirs are the parts for a simple pick up? LMAO at the endless excuses and deflection here!

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

No suck luck the BMW X8 is a go, and it probably won't cost any more to build than an X7, yet it will sell for $130,000 and the BMW bored will be like

Well, when they sell 18 of them in two years, hopefully it will get the axe after that. Hopefully the lot gets trimmed sooner by getting rid of the bucket of pukes in the GLC Coupe, GLE Coupe, X4, and X6. 

FCK THOSE VEHICLES. 

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I actually think if Toyota set a goal and made a 20 year commitment that they could get the Tundra to outsell the F150.  The Camry only needed about 15 years to be the #1 selling car, the RAV4 needed about 15 years to be #1 selling SUV

I think it could be competitive but I think there is zero chance it could outsell the F150 unless the next F150 is a COMPLETE dud AND it falls to #3 behind the Ram and Silverado making the Toyota #3 and F150 #4. 

Also, to the best of my knowledge, those sales are F series, not just F150. That would mean Toyota would need their Tundra to have HD versions and try and take that whole market as well.

Edited by ccap41
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True to that.  I think Tundra could outsell F150 if Toyota got on it.  But F-series does have a big line that get lumped into there.  And I don't see Toyota doing medium duty trucks and such. 

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The vast bulk of the F-Series is the F-150. 

The problem with the theory that “if toyoter got on it” is that Ford NEVER sits still on the F-150, and they’re LIGHT YEARS ahead of where the tundra will be 2 generations from now. It’s a no-win scenario.

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40 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The vast bulk of the F-Series is the F-150. 

The problem with the theory that “if toyoter got on it” is that Ford NEVER sits still on the F-150, and they’re LIGHT YEARS ahead of where the tundra will be 2 generations from now. It’s a no-win scenario.

Now if only GM would do the same with its crossovers. . . . .

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1 hour ago, balthazar said:

The vast bulk of the F-Series is the F-150. 

The problem with the theory that “if toyoter got on it” is that Ford NEVER sits still on the F-150, and they’re LIGHT YEARS ahead of where the tundra will be 2 generations from now. It’s a no-win scenario.

Toyota could spend Ford under a table if they wanted to.  Toyota made over $17 billion in profit last year, over 20 billion the year before and sits on about a $50 billion pile of cash and short term investments.  Why on earth they haven't taken that full size truck segment head on is beyond me.

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I don't think it's just about money.
Ford has been building trucks since 1905, they've been crushing the full-size segment for 50+ years, trucks are hardwired into the Corporation's DNA.
And now -- much to toyota's dismay no doubt -- Ford is doubling down on trucks and is just beginning to flex it's muscle in the only spot toyoter has had any success; where the 'coma sits. 
Toyoter has always been focused on cars (and CUVs now), but the cars are still looking to continue to constrict, and their trucks aren't anywhere near where the cam/rolla is. toyota is going to see some real erosion, IMO.

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13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Toyota could spend Ford under a table if they wanted to.  Toyota made over $17 billion in profit last year, over 20 billion the year before and sits on about a $50 billion pile of cash and short term investments.  Why on earth they haven't taken that full size truck segment head on is beyond me.

The exact same reason neither Ford nor GM ever took small cars seriously: not in their DNA.  For Ford or GM to take on the Toyota Corolla/Yaris and/or the Honda Civic/Fit is almost an economic suicide mission at this point.  If Detroit wanted to take down Civic/Corolla, then the Detroit three would have had to dedicate everything and their children to take them down back in the early 1970s.  Instead the public gets the Chevy Vega and the Ford Pinto, neither of which were good enough.

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