Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[balthazar]

I still see so many Teslas snugged up to superchargers in the AM; seems they don't care much to pay for electricity, even tho they have no issue dumping $100K on the vehicle itself. Weirdness.

[David]

12 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I still see so many Teslas snugged up to superchargers in the AM; seems they don't care much to pay for electricity, even tho they have no issue dumping $100K on the vehicle itself. Weirdness.

Seems most rich people are cheap! 🙄

[Drew Dowdell]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

I still see so many Teslas snugged up to superchargers in the AM; seems they don't care much to pay for electricity, even tho they have no issue dumping $100K on the vehicle itself. Weirdness.

And the total cost to charge regularly is minimal. Like $30 extra a month.

[balthazar]

These two opinions were in the same article. Truth is, nobody knows. Likelyhood is, everyone is predicting too fast of a change.

[David]

Seems BP has officially opened the first of 400 new Fast DC charging stations in the UK to compliment their 7,000 charge points across the nation there and will have all 400 DC fast chargers installed by the end of 2021.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/ bp-chargemaster-installs-first-of-400-150-kw-chargers/

[David]

Get Ready for that other shoe to drop, the price shoe on EVs. As per this story, prices for Lithium have dropped and will continue to drop as 6 new mines in Australia alone have come on line and will contribute to a 23% rise in production of Lithium for use in batteries. 

Current costs per the story: today's $176 per kwh, to $94/kwh by 2024 and $62/kwh by 2030

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124776_ev-battery-suppliers-face-glut-of-lithium-tight-supply-of-other-materials

Course this does not take into affect lower prices on other components as economy of scale takes over with ramped up production.

[balthazar]

Interesting piece in the NJ Star Ledger :
Parkway picnic spot a relic of a past era
Want to have a picnic on the Garden State Parkway? Only one spot is left to do so.
That wasn't the case 60-plus years ago, when the NJ Highway Authority built 10 picnic areas for travelers to pull off the highway, take a break, eat lunch, or even -by 1970- cook burgers or hot dogs on electric grilles.
The area offered picnic tables under groves of trees, running water and restrooms in some locations. 

I can't held but think of the parallel; electric cars are forcing a bygone practice; sitting for an hour roadside while your vehicle charges and you (unwillingly) spend your time idle.

[David]

Interesting is that China has agreed to allow Tesla to sell their auto's tax free in China saving the 10% sales tax. Gotta wonder how the other auto companies are going to respond to this favor-ism.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china-tax/china-will-exempt-tesla-cars-from-purchase-tax-idUSKCN1VK1AU

 

[riviera74]

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

Interesting is that China has agreed to allow Tesla to sell their auto's tax free in China saving the 10% sales tax. Gotta wonder how the other auto companies are going to respond to this favor-ism.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china-tax/china-will-exempt-tesla-cars-from-purchase-tax-idUSKCN1VK1AU

 

Maybe automakers need their own strategy against Chinese favoritism and mercantilism.  Few others really have such a strategy.

[David]

Seems in the EV world that the BMW i3 and i8 are not dead in their current form as BMW will produce 900 final units world wide of the i3 and 200 of the i8 in both convertible and coupe form. Guess this is one way to send these autos off before they roll out their new EV product line that looks like the rest of the family.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/02/bmw-i3-roadstyle-i8-ultimate-sophisto/

Seems Ford has decided that the world needs more info on the up coming Ford F-150 EV Truck being built by Rivian for Ford Globally as well as their whole EV Strategy!

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/08/31/ford-future-300-mile-ev/

It's a good read and I really like the following quoted from the story:

Palmer says Ford won't need to tack on huge MSRPs to these electrified "icons," because it plans to make its EVs "extremely desirable, but at an attainable price.” That's a fantastic goal, and Ford knows its numbers better than we do, but when various analysts predict a "profit desert" for electric powertrains, autonomous driving and connectivity, we're keen to see how Ford manages to do that without asking un-Ford-like sums. 

Figure @balthazar and especially @ocnblu will like this story that was run here in the local Seattle Time Newspaper about the EV Profit Desert that they see coming: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/automakers-face-profit-desert-as-evs-self-driving-vehicles-arrive/

To quote the story:

“This industry is about to enter what could be a multiyear profit desert,” says Mark Wakefield, global co-leader of AlixPartners’ automotive and industrial practice. “It’s not that it’s over. It’s a true cyclical business, and we should all understand that. There are adjustments and realignments that have to happen. It looks like some slimmer times and some lower return-on-capital times.”

In Police News, Indiana Police Department is swapping Dodge Chargers for Tesla Model 3 in Bargersville Indiana.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/08/31/tesla-model-3-police-cost-savings-bargersville/

To quote this story:

Even though the Model 3 costs more than the Charger, the department said the EV will save taxpayers money. The Tesla runs $39,500, a police-issue Charger costs a police department $25,000 according to figures given to the Indianapolis Star. The Daily Journal said this Model 3 ran $41,945, the Charger $33,612. No matter the differential, the Model 3 is expected to be much cheaper to run. The Dodge apparently requires more than $8,000 in upkeep every year just for gas, oil, and insurance, the gas alone totaling $7,125. The department's figures show Tesla will need just $1,728 in electricity, and one officer said that even the replacement windshield wipers are less expensive on the Tesla than the Dodge. Over a six-year period, Bargersville PD expects to save at least $20,600, with the savings beginning in the third year. 

The EV Front continues with some really cool marine power, I am loving the Silent Yacht 55 that is 100 percent solar and Zero NVH.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/01/silent-yachts-55-solar-electric-boat/

 

 

[David]

Rivian Pre-Production fleet testing in Tierra Del Fuego Agentina.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/29656/rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-truck-prototypes-spotted-testing-in-argentinas-tierra-del-fuego

Seems white and Grey are new colors for Rivian R1T.

Seems they moved the charge port from the passenger side to the drivers side.

Nothing like High Altitude Winter Testing for true battery performance.

 

[balthazar]

[quote]“This industry is about to enter what could be a multiyear profit desert,” says Mark Wakefield, global co-leader of AlixPartners’ automotive and industrial practice."[/quote]

LOL - what does "about to enter" mean? Who's making a profit on EVs NOW??

It's not that 'it makes me happy' - it is what it is. EVs do not make any OEM money. The PR that Ford released saying they would be 'attractively priced' means nothing. And such has been said before, by many. Tesla has by far the largest volume EV and they still haven't hit their goal MSRP of $35K.

BTW- ALL colors are new for Rivian- they aren't in production yet.

[David]

Seems VW is full court press for setting records in EVs.

They just posted the fastest time ever for reaching Heaven's Gate in China. 7:38.585 for conquering 99 hairpin turns on the 10.906 kilometer Big Gate Road.

Very cool pictures and details can be found here:

https://www.media.vw.com/releases/1194

 

[A Horse With No Name]

 

[ccap41]

Taycan is here. It looks "pretty good", imo. I do fear for Tesla as Porsche is a giant or at least has giant money and I think this will eat into Tesla pretty hard unless Tesla has heavy updates coming soon to the Model S. 

I have to believe the quality control over at Porsche will have them in a much better position than Tesla. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28899036/2020-porsche-taycan-photos-info/

 

[David]

Chevrolet Bolts are coming back from their 3yr leases and some awesome deals on low mileage Bolts fully loaded.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=521621091&zip=98043&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D98043%26listingTypes%3DUSED%2CCERTIFIED%26sortBy%3Drelevance%26incremental%3Dall%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Don%26modelCodeList%3DCHEBOLT%26makeCodeList%3DCHEV%26searchRadius%3D50&listingTypes=USED%2CCERTIFIED&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0&modelCodeList=CHEBOLT&makeCodeList=CHEV&searchRadius=50&makeCode1=CHEV&modelCode1=CHEBOLT&digitalRetail=true&clickType=listing

$27,491 for a 2017 Chevrolet bolt that has 11,224 miles on it. Premier edition. SWEET!

Here is a 2017 with 13, 327 miles for $24,495. 

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=523012353&zip=98043&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D98043%26listingTypes%3DUSED%2CCERTIFIED%26sortBy%3Drelevance%26incremental%3Dall%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Don%26modelCodeList%3DCHEBOLT%26makeCodeList%3DCHEV%26searchRadius%3D50&listingTypes=USED%2CCERTIFIED&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0&modelCodeList=CHEBOLT&makeCodeList=CHEV&searchRadius=50&makeCode1=CHEV&modelCode1=CHEBOLT&digitalRetail=true&clickType=listing

[David]

Mercedes-benz invited a few journalist to their HQ for a preview of their electric vehicle lineup that will be shown off at the German Auto show.

https://electrek.co/2019/09/05/mercedes-electric-eqc-eqv-eactros/

I have to say I do like what I see for the EQC. There are a series of pictures both inside and out at the link above. I like what I see and that at least it has some interior storage in the back. MB says this is a Tesla Y competitor.

Also, found out that the Smartcar and B-Class EV had Tesla Powertrains. Tesla also admits if it was not for the $50 million investment from MB, Tesla would not exist today. MB sold off their share a little over a year ago for $780 million. Not bad on an original $50 million investment to gain $730 million on it.

They do mention that Tesla and MB are considering a joint Sprinter EV van to be sold by Tesla. Sounds like a rebadge of the current released EV Sprinter van.

 

[David]

Latest news that Tesla has NO COMMENT on is the rumor that they are moving into a new product line of battery cell manufacturing.

According to the story broke by Electrek Tesla Story This all started with Tesla's acquisition of Maxwell, a supercapacitor manufacturer. Tesla now has job openings for a new manufacture line in Fremont California and in Colorado.

To quote the story: Tesla is currently seeking a Technician for a manufacturing line we are developing. You’ll be part of a new product line we are developing.

One of the jobs listed on their site: https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/manufacturing-techniciancellmanufacturing-48026

Clearly cell manufacturing is a job at Tesla now. While Tesla has NOT had any facilities of R&D or Manufacturing in Colorado, clearly Broomfield, Colorado is now such a locations according to this job posting: https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/cell-technician-44615

The story goes on to say that comments from Tesla executives is to take battery cell supply into their own hands to insure sufficient supplies rather than rely on Panasonic.

On top of the battery cell story above, we have Tesla researchers saying they can makes battery packs last 1 MILLION miles. The application for this new cell from long haul trucking, robo taxis to vehicle to grid applications are endless. The link below will allow you to read the full story plus they got their hands on the Research paper that is posted there for the tech heads that are interested in these new 1 million mile battery cells.

Tesla Battery Cells last 1 million miles story from Electrek

To quote the story: 

The new battery tested is a Li-Ion battery cell with a next-generation “single crystal” NMC cathode and a new advanced electrolyte.

Dahn’s team have been extensively testing these cells and based on the results, they think that the battery could power an electric car “for over 1.6 million kilometers (1 million miles).”

Here’s how Dahn’s team describes the results:

“We present a wide range of testing results on an excellent moderate-energy-density lithium-ion pouch cell chemistry to serve as benchmarks for academics and companies developing advanced lithium-ion and other “beyond lithium-ion” cell chemistries to (hopefully) exceed. These results are far superior to those that have been used by researchers modelling cell failure mechanisms and as such, these results are more representative of modern Li-ion cells and should be adopted by modellers. Up to three years of testing has been completed for some of the tests. Tests include long-term charge-discharge cycling at 20, 40 and 55°C, long-term storage at 20, 40 and 55°C, and high precision coulometry at 40°C. Several different electrolytes are considered in this LiNi0.5Mn0.3Co0.2O2/graphite chemistry, including those that can promote fast charging. The reasons for cell performance degradation and impedance growth are examined using several methods. We conclude that cells of this type should be able to power an electric vehicle for over 1.6 million kilometers (1 million miles) and last at least two decades in grid energy storage.”

[David]

Want a good laugh, check out the Tweets from Elon Musk and Tesla aimed at VW / Audi / Porsche.

https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-trolls-vw-porsche-twitter/

November seems to be the month that we finally get to see the production Truck from Tesla.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-pickup-truck-unveiling-event-date-november/

Will be interesting to see how much it looks like this concept image released by Tesla.

[David]

According to Chargedevs.com Mercedes-benz has launched 3 compact PHEVs.

• A 250e
• A 250e Saloon
• B 250e

All will have a 15.6 kWh battery good for 70-75 km with electric output of 75 kW, total system of 160 kW and torque of 450 Nm.

For us Americans that is 214 HP / 332 lb-ft.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/mercedes-benz-launches-three-compact-phevs/

 

[David]

Rivian gets a $350 Million investment from Cox Automotive that also includes services which Cox Automotive will work with Rivian to cover Marketing, Delivery, Service Operations, logistics and digital retailing for a total investment valued at $500 million.

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/500-million-truck-rivian-electric-pickup

This should really help RIvian avoid some of the major pitfalls that Tesla has stumbled over.

[David]

Frankfurt Motor show has brought out the big guns of Climate Change zealots that want all consumer trucks and especially SUVs to be banned.

Yet the auto industry says that the CUV/SUV/Trucks will actually help drive the change over to EVs due to the ease of various size battery packaging compared to cars.

https://ihsmarkit.com/research-analysis/frankfurt-motor-show-2019-climate-change-campaigners.html?itx[idio]=525794340&ito=1038&itq=7a287443-b85a-40e7-b904-8f2019318504

[David]

Mercedes Benz took a page from Apple in pointing to the Technology Giants SDK or Software Development Kit that they released and within the first day over 100,000 downloads were done as people started to build aps for their Apple Store.

Today MB announced their new SDK available immediately for those that wish to build apps for the MB Auto App Store.

https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/Mercedes-Benz-Mobile-Software-Development-Kit-Mercedes-Benz-is-one-of-the-first-automotive-manufacturers-to-make-its-own-mobile-Software-Development-Kit-SDK-available-to-developers.xhtml?oid=44399862&ls=L2VuL2luc3RhbmNlL2tvLnhodG1sP29pZD00ODM2MjU4JnJlbElkPTYwODI5JmZyb21PaWQ9NDgzNjI1OCZib3JkZXJzPXRydWUmcmVzdWx0SW5mb1R5cGVJZD00MDYyNiZ2aWV3VHlwZT10aHVtYnM!&rs=0

[David]

Tweaked Tesla P100D spotted in Germany, maybe prepping to attempt a record at Nurburg ring. It has street legal Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R tires and changed fender bulges for bigger tires along with a changed nose to allow better airflow to brakes, motors and battery. Bigger lip spoiler. Seems if they do beat Porsche time, this would still not be valid as this is a one off car and not production which is what Porsche used to set their record.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/11/tesla-model-s-p100d-spied-near-nurburgring/#slide-2168656

[ccap41]

Brakes* 

[David]

Seems while Europe gets the smaller ID4, the US will get a bigger ID4 as the first of the EV's to be built in Chattanooga, a total of 3 EVs within the next 18 months and according to the current leadership, VW is to be a global all EV leading auto company and within 10 years EVs only in Europe and China markets.

https://www.autonews.com/frankfurt-auto-show/vws-ev-crossover-us-will-be-called-id4

[David]

Gotta love how fast the Europeans are adding Hot Hatchbacks AWD EVs.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

^^ What happened to the rest of the car?

[balthazar]

Wonder what the folk that think the Bolt is ‘ugly’ think of this?

[ccap41]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Wonder what the folk that think the Bolt is ‘ugly’ think of this?

It looks better. 

[David]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

^^ What happened to the rest of the car?

I thought it just got cut off coming out of the squeeze tube.

I have to say from the front, looks like a bullet train. I actually like the frontal look, rear needs work, but AWD EV is pretty cool looking as a starting point.

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

It looks better. 

I actually think this looks better than the Leaf or Bolt.

[ccap41]

18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I thought it just got cut off coming out of the squeeze tube.

I have to say from the front, looks like a bullet train. I actually like the frontal look, rear needs work, but AWD EV is pretty cool looking as a starting point.

I actually think this looks better than the Leaf or Bolt.

100%. It looks like a sporty hot hatch. 

[balthazar]

zoe e-sport is a concept car, the regular one looks like this :

[David]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

zoe e-sport is a concept car, the regular one looks like this :

Still looks better than the Leaf and more on par with the Bolt.

[riviera74]

15 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Still looks better than the Leaf and more on par with the Bolt.

OK.  Who would buy it here when an automaker could build an Equinox-sized version and almost literally mint money?

[David]

20 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

OK.  Who would buy it here when an automaker could build an Equinox-sized version and almost literally mint money?

The AWD Concept one I could see young people buying and those living in the city. Rest of us would want the larger CUV/SUV that are coming.

[frogger]

12 hours ago, riviera74 said:

OK.  Who would buy it here when an automaker could build an Equinox-sized version and almost literally mint money?

The great mystery... Still no compact EV CUV sized similar to big selling CRV, RAV4, Rogue etc but a lot of compact cars/hatchbacks.

 

[Potluck]

apparently tesla broke the taycan speed record already with their specially built model S

Just now, Potluck said:

apparently tesla broke the taycan speed record already with their specially built model S

edit: at the 'Ring

[David]

School districts are looking to retire Diesel buses fast and looking to states to help pay for the change over to EV buses.

Michigan state has agreed to help cover 70% of the cost for multiple school districts that have moved forward with purchasing EV school buses. 17 Proterra EV buses to start.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/michigan-school-districts-to-buy-17-electric-buses/

 

[David]

Charged EV is stating in their story covering all the EV's coming from VW that the company has hit the below magic $100 per kWh battery pack cost.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/as-vw-shows-2-new-evs-in-frankfurt-has-it-brought-battery-costs-under-100-kwh/

If this is true, then the ID4 Cross that is slated to hit the US dealerships next year could be the game changer that VW is touting and that industry analyst say will bring EVs below Legacy ICE auto costs.

To quote the story posted above:

Ralf Brandstätter, COO of the Volkswagen brand, wouldn’t be drawn – when the New York Times recently asked him whether the automaker had reached the magic number, he just grinned and said, “We are the company that will provide electromobility for all.” However, another exec, who declined to be identified, said that the company was paying “less than $100/kWh for batteries.”

Good Follow up to the Charged EVs story as this one has VW execs on record that EVs will be an apple to apple price comparison.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125078_vw-s-us-electric-car-pricing-apples-to-apples-vs-internal-combustion

If this holds true, this will be a game changer that many will take home charging EVs at the same price of an ICE with less maintenance and fueling costs.

Quoting this story:

“Our goal is to make the comparison to a comparable internal combustion car—for example, versus a Tiguan,” said Volkswagen of America CEO Scott Keogh to Green Car Reports, last week at the Frankfurt auto show. “When I can put these two apples to apples. I think that is positioning it for the masses.”

[ccap41]

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a29107969/2020-zero-srf-drive/

More pictures at: https://www.caranddriver.com/photos/g29102809/2020-zero-srf-drive-gallery/

 

[ccap41]

The range just isn't there yet.. You need to flip those numbers for my serious interest.

" Zero claims a reach of 161 miles in city conditions, but the number nearly halves to 82 miles at a constant 70 mph. At least those ranges, and the digital display's range indicator, are realistic. In Car and Driver's 75-mph highway test, we measured a range of 70 miles."

[balthazar]

22 hours ago, dfelt said:

Michigan state has agreed to help cover 70% of the cost for multiple school districts that have moved forward with purchasing EV school buses. 17 Proterra EV buses to start.

$4.2 M being 70% of 17 buses equates to them each costing $247,000!! For what normally costs $65,000-75,000.

Unsustainable.

A quarter million dollar tin box that only sees 8000 miles per year.

Insanity.

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by balthazar

[riviera74]

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

$4.2 M being 70% of 17 buses equates to them each costing $247,000!! For what normally costs $65,000-75,000.

Unsustainable.

A quarter million dollar tin box that only sees 8000 miles per year.

Insanity.

 

Version 1.0 on anything will always be expensive.  But think of all the diesel fuel costs Michigan is saving, especially when gas (and diesel) prices spike when there is an interruption in oil supplies.

[balthazar]

The tremendous purchase cost will never be made up over the mandated finite life of a school bus. There is no cost savings.

[balthazar]

I could see a case made for an EV bus costing -say- $100K vs. $70K. A fiscally reasonable & workable cost bump.
But $250K? Why not make it $500K or an even 1 million each, since money is obviously of no concern? And to toss out "it saves on fuel costs" hoping no one with 2 brain cells to rub together will do anything other than smile & nod along is repulsive. At least be honest about it.

[David]

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

The tremendous purchase cost will never be made up over the mandated finite life of a school bus. There is no cost savings.

It is a starting point and compared to the life of a diesel bus at 10 years compared to the life of an ev bus at 20 years. It does get closer with Version 1.0 of EV school buses and cleaner air for the kids who ride the bus daily.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

 And to toss out "it saves on fuel costs" hoping no one with 2 brain cells to rub together will do anything other than smile & nod along is repulsive. At least be honest about it.

Cost is cost for first gen any product, but I do agree with you that it is insulting to the public to only focus on fuel costs and not cover the wider range of benefits with EV buses, noise pollution reduction, cleaner air being breathed by the youth on the bus, long service life, etc.

I think it would help them if they were honest in admitting that the initial costs up front are going to be higher, but over the long run as they convert to an all EV bus fleet, costs will come down and the other benefits will be achieved for the kids.

[David]

As some members have stated about EVs, price, price, price. 

They following Fiat EV concept could do them very well if it came in at the right price for a subcompact auto.

 

[David]

Seems Porsche has been lapping Tesla on the German racing track especially after their Platinum powertrain auto that broke their record then broke down and had to be lifted onto a flatbed by a crane.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-s-plaid-towed-nurburgring-porsche-taycan-2019-9

 

[David]

2019 Chevrolet Bolt looks to be earning top safety ratings again.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125119_2019-chevrolet-bolt-ev-shows-strong-in-iihs-crash-tests

The 16 available EVs in the market this year and their specs. Pretty cool to compare and contrast them.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/every-electric-car-ev-range-audi-chevy-tesla/