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wildcat

"We Build Confusion"

53 posts in this topic

Chicagoland    2

He does accurately point out that Bunke Knudsen started the 'performance image' in the mid 50's, not DeLorean.

Also, while the Trans Am was doing well in the 1970's, the LeMans was trying to be an Olds Cutlass. The 78-81 LeMans has to much chrome and vinyl, and blurred the image, to where it was renamed Bonneville in 82. etc,etc..

Was not until 1987, when the chrome boats were dropped.

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sciguy_0504    0

It's not just all about volume, rather quality. A great RWD may not sell in the numbers that an average FWD car would, let alone a great FWD car, but a great RWD car would surely make more money (less incentives) and lead to positive brand recognition. Pontiac can have a crossover but make sure it is sporty. If Pontiac HAS to have a FWD car for volume, make it AWD.

Buick should have a mix of FWD and RWD cars. Caddy handles the luxury RWD market.

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I of the opinion that a new Pontiac lineup with 80% RWD

and 20% rear-biased AWD would be EXACTLY what's in

order to revive the brand.

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pow    106

I of the opinion that a new Pontiac lineup with 80% RWD

and 20% rear-biased AWD would be EXACTLY what's in

order to revive the brand.

Yeah... just look at how successful the GTO is.

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sciguy_0504    0

To use the GTO as an example for future Pontiac RWD sales is unfair because it was done on the quick and cheap, not to mention it applied to only one market. Bold design, great performance, solid materials, average prices and a good dealer experience are needed.

I doubt Pontiac will ever again see 600,000+ sales due to brand loyalties and a very competitive and crowded marketplace, no matter what wheels are in charge.

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regfootball    234

BMW sells 25% of its 3 series and 33% of its 5 series in AWD and those %ages keep growing. To top it off, most volume sellers in the market as a whole are FWD based. So Pontiac needs to have a mix of all. An 80% RWD solution would be a death knell indeed.

Hell, even look at Lexus, its ballyhooed as a RWD brand but its bigger sellers, the RX is AWD or FWD i think and the ES is FWD. The lesser volume IS and GS now offer AWD and I think even the LS will now too.

Audi built its image on AWD, not RWD.

Mercedes has proliferated and expanded due to many AWD offerings on its main cars.

Acura has a sporty image despite mostly FWD offerings.

I cannot think of one brand directly comparable with where Pontiac wants to be that solely or almost completely is fixed on RWD, so that appraoch is not proven to be a fix all answer.

It has to be a mix of all.

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Flybrian    0

I of the opinion that a new Pontiac lineup with 80% RWD

and 20% rear-biased AWD would be EXACTLY what's in

order to revive the brand.

After nearly a decade of truly lackluster performance, the 1987 FWD Bonneville revived that nameplate's performance image - and won numerous awards doing so.

Its not as cut-and-dried as RWD vs. FWD; its about doing it correctly.

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regfootball    234

After nearly a decade of truly lackluster performance, the 1987 FWD Bonneville revived that nameplate's performance image - and won numerous awards doing so.

Its not as cut-and-dried as RWD vs. FWD; its about doing it correctly.

^^^^^^^^

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balthazar    1,882

>>"To see his article..."<<

Now why would I ever want to do that? I actually had a decent day today.

Ahhh, what the hell....

>>"Pontiac was in the dumps in the middle '50s, when Bunkie Knudsen--the son of a GM president and an impressive leader in his own right--took over. Knudsen was a GM vice president, which meant he actually had the power to change the cars. That was the beginning of Pontiac's great years."<<

That's not it: Knudsen was Pontiac's General Manager, back when all GMs had authority, discretionary budgets and individual Engineering departments.

>>"...how GM became the world's leader--by spreading a few platforms among its divisions and doing a great job of differentiating the look, power and handling of various models derived off these platforms."<<

Again- that's not it. It was not "a few" platforms (nevermind that the term 'platform' is an anachronism with regards to the '50 & '60s), it was actually a great number of autonomous divisional chassis's. Which is also how the power was 'differentiated": autonomous engines. A Pontiac was Pontiac-designed, Pontiac-engineered, Pontiac-powered.

It's what's needed again.

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Mr.Krinkle    0

>>"To see his article..."<<

Now why would I ever want to do that? I actually had a decent day today.

Ahhh, what the hell....

>>"Pontiac was in the dumps in the middle '50s, when Bunkie Knudsen--the son of a GM president and an impressive leader in his own right--took over. Knudsen was a GM vice president, which meant he actually had the power to change the cars. That was the beginning of Pontiac's great years."<<

That's not it: Knudsen was Pontiac's General Manager, back when all GMs had authority, discretionary budgets and individual Engineering departments.

>>"...how GM became the world's leader--by spreading a few platforms among its divisions and doing a great job of differentiating the look, power and handling of various models derived off these platforms."<<

Again- that's not it. It was not "a few" platforms (nevermind that the term 'platform' is an anachronism with regards to the '50 & '60s), it was actually a great number of autonomous divisional chassis's. Which is also how the power was 'differentiated": autonomous engines. A Pontiac was Pontiac-designed, Pontiac-engineered, Pontiac-powered.

It's what's needed again.

pontiac is pontiac. thats what always made them special. thats what makes all these cars what they are, i just want to know if they can stand on their own. if pontaic had no affiliation with GM what what that mean for them? all the brands are separate, thats how i like to think of them. even when parts are shared its like, ok, at least the people at pontiac..or buick know what were after. at some point theyll figure it out because after olds its kind of known what happens to that core fan base once you let it go.

does anyone think gms sinking marketshare can be compared with the loss of that division? would numbers like that even exist? perhaps not all of it but a part.

amyway, there has to be a better way with better people and more ideas to create, embelish, or even exaggerate what would and could be done with the proper foundation. pontiac may only sell what 2/300k but thats still more than not selling any at all and its foolhardy to think another gm division, and at this time i use it lightly, will pick up that slack.

its not that damaged but once its gone...its gone, and there aint no bringin it back.

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Dsuupr    12

Can we not go one day without someone slamming GM for their decisions?

I for one think going rear wheel drive is a GREAT idea for Pontiac. Selling in bulk has not proven to help GM in the long run. Selling things that are "hot" and make a crap load of cash is the answer. Going rear wheel drive will make Pontiac stand out, and adds to the potential of Pontiac making "hot" cars.

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C.H.U.D.    0

Yeah... just look at how bland the GTO is.

Fixed it for ya ;)

It actually ties into what Fly said. You need the overall package to win consumers. RWD and slick powertrains will help back the modern performance image.

Edited by C.H.U.D.

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The O.C.    2

>>"To see his article..."<<

Now why would I ever want to do that? I actually had a decent day today.

Ahhh, what the hell....

>>"Pontiac was in the dumps in the middle '50s, when Bunkie Knudsen--the son of a GM president and an impressive leader in his own right--took over. Knudsen was a GM vice president, which meant he actually had the power to change the cars. That was the beginning of Pontiac's great years."<<

That's not it: Knudsen was Pontiac's General Manager, back when all GMs had authority, discretionary budgets and individual Engineering departments.

>>"...how GM became the world's leader--by spreading a few platforms among its divisions and doing a great job of differentiating the look, power and handling of various models derived off these platforms."<<

Again- that's not it. It was not "a few" platforms (nevermind that the term 'platform' is an anachronism with regards to the '50 & '60s), it was actually a great number of autonomous divisional chassis's. Which is also how the power was 'differentiated": autonomous engines. A Pontiac was Pontiac-designed, Pontiac-engineered, Pontiac-powered.

It's what's needed again.

GM's Divisional General Managers back then DID have the titles of "Vice-President" just like Ed Mertz did back when I worked for Buick.

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evok    0

GM's Divisional General Managers back then DID have the titles of "Vice-President" just like Ed Mertz did back when I worked for Buick.

I would not argue with him, he knows his stuff.

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roopull    0

The problem with Pontiac, IMO, and the reason folks are so confused is that there's little that is special about Pontiac. Aside from the failing GTO, what can you buy at Pontiac that you can't essentially buy somewhere else in the GM lineup?

If GM is going to continue to do this platform sharing business, it's a recipe for disaster -FWD, AWD, RWD... it won't matter.

Take the upcoming US Ponty Pursuit... What's going to be so special about it that will make it better than a Cobalt SS?

What makes the Solstice better than a Sky? In fact, almost every article I read about the Sky puts the Sky as a better car - even faster through the slaloms! WTF?

What makes a G6 better than a Malibu or a Saab 9-3?

Why buy a Torrent over an Equinox, Vue or the upcoming GMC clone?

THAT is what's wrong with Pontiac.

THAT is what's wrong with GM... cannibalist competition, lack of brand identity... bla bla bla... so, yeah, go ahead & make all the Ponties RWD... meanwhile, by default Chevy, Buick, GM, Saturn will all have a version of that RWD car & the cycle will start all over again.

Pontiac, I'm sorry to say, has no reason to exist in GM's line-up.

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CaddyXLR-V    3

The problem with Pontiac, IMO, and the reason folks are so confused is that there's little that is special about Pontiac.  Aside from the failing GTO, what can you buy at Pontiac that you can't essentially buy somewhere else in the GM lineup?

If GM is going to continue to do this platform sharing business, it's a recipe for disaster -FWD, AWD, RWD... it won't matter.

Take the upcoming US Ponty Pursuit...  What's going to be so special about it that will make it better than a Cobalt SS?

What makes the Solstice better than a Sky?  In fact, almost every article I read about the Sky puts the Sky as a better car - even faster through the slaloms!  WTF?

What makes a G6 better than a Malibu or a Saab 9-3?

Why buy a Torrent over an Equinox, Vue or the upcoming GMC clone?

THAT is what's wrong with Pontiac. 

THAT is what's wrong with GM...  cannibalist competition, lack of brand identity...  bla bla bla...  so, yeah, go ahead & make all the Ponties RWD...  meanwhile, by default Chevy, Buick, GM, Saturn will all have a version of that RWD car & the cycle will start all over again.

Pontiac, I'm sorry to say, has no reason to exist in GM's line-up.

You missed the point. The point was to give Pontiac a clear identity. Will it share platforms, yes. But what company doesn't share platforms now? Basically every car GM makes shares a platform with another brand. Why is that what is wrong with Pontiac? Are all the other brands still great when they do the same? Cadillac is the only brand that doesn't share platforms, and even then the Deville and trucks share platforms as well.

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balthazar    1,882

GM's Divisional General Managers back then DID have the titles of "Vice-President" just like Ed Mertz did back when I worked for Buick.

Mertz ('86-97) did not have the discretionary authority & divisional budget that earlier decades' GMs had. The point was that, not their job title.

Division GMs have had 'VP' titles since '33.

How'd I do, evok?

Edited by balthazar

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roopull    0

You missed the point. The point was to give Pontiac a clear identity. Will it share platforms, yes. But what company doesn't share platforms now? Basically every car GM makes shares a platform with another brand. Why is that what is wrong with Pontiac? Are all the other brands still great when they do the same? Cadillac is the only brand that doesn't share platforms, and even then the Deville and trucks share platforms as well.

No, I didn't miss the point. Other brands platform share, but most of those vehicles that are sharing platforms do not directly compete with each other. Camrys & ES300s do not compete directly with each other, for example. When any brand re-produces a model at the same or similar price point, it's idiotic in my book. I don't care what brand is doing it.

Thankifully, GM is getting better at platform sharing, but they have so many brands they need to produce new products for, they simply do not have the budget to create unique models for each brand.

This is why Lutz's plan to have Saturn share models with Opel is brilliant. IMO, it ensures the future of Saturn more than any move since the division was created.

Pontiac, however, just seems lost. Pontiac might make sense to me if there were no Red Line Saturns, no SS Chevys etc. Will the Pursuit outrun a Cobalt SS? The Solstice, if test drives are to be believed, cannot outrun a Sky... That, to me, sounds like Pontiac is completely lost.

If you ask me, Pontiac should, if left alive, be treated like an in-house tuner firm... Send them your 260hp Sky & they'll turn it into a 300hp STI killer. As it is now, it's just an also-ran & will remain one under this "new" plan... they should call it the deja-vu plan, imo.

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The problem with Pontiac, IMO, and the reason folks are so confused is that there's little that is special about Pontiac.  Aside from the failing GTO, what can you buy at Pontiac that you can't essentially buy somewhere else in the GM lineup?

Unfortunately, the Vibe. Only Pontiac got the Matrix clone.

If GM is going to continue to do this platform sharing business, it's a recipe for disaster -FWD, AWD, RWD... it won't matter.

Take the upcoming US Ponty Pursuit...  What's going to be so special about it that will make it better than a Cobalt SS?

We know that it was coming. They are the same car. The G5 wasn't planned when the Cobalt was designed, so that is why it's so similar. There was an article that explicitly says that Pontiac didn't want that car. The dealers did.

What makes the Solstice better than a Sky?  In fact, almost every article I read about the Sky puts the Sky as a better car - even faster through the slaloms!  WTF?

Interestingly, me any my friends were talking about this. Solstice and Sky, although being the same car, have completely different styling. Being NA Opel, Saturn needed the Sky. But otherwise, styling I would say the Solstice is different enough from the Sky. It's a like it or hate it thing.

What makes a G6 better than a Malibu or a Saab 9-3?

The Malibu is ugly, and not available with a stick. Saab 9-3 isn't even Epsilon (technically, Saab made too much structural changes), its size is almost comparable to the Cobalt, hence they are different markets.

Why buy a Torrent over an Equinox, Vue or the upcoming GMC clone?

Agreed on this one, but I can see the Torrent do well if it didn't get the Chinese 3.4L and have more performance options available, e.g. different ride heights and driving dynamics. And what GMC clone are you talking about? The GMC is a Lambda. And if GMC is getting a version, Torrent will die for sure. Pontiac-GMC is one division under GM's structure.

THAT is what's wrong with Pontiac. 

THAT is what's wrong with GM...  cannibalist competition, lack of brand identity...  bla bla bla...  so, yeah, go ahead & make all the Ponties RWD...  meanwhile, by default Chevy, Buick, GM, Saturn will all have a version of that RWD car & the cycle will start all over again.

Pontiac, I'm sorry to say, has no reason to exist in GM's line-up.

Platform sharing can work just as well, if done correctly.

Look at Honda and Acura. Look at Citroen and Peugeot. Look at Fiat and Alfa Romeo. The list goes on...

Edited by ToniCipriani

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Cory Wolfe    263

We know that it was coming. They are the same car. The G5 wasn't planned when the Cobalt was designed, so that is why it's so similar. There was an article that explicitly says that Pontiac didn't want that car. The dealers did.

Yes. That's why the Cobalt has 4 different front clips, yet Pontiac gets a grill piece. :lol2:

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CaddyXLR-V    3

No, I didn't miss the point.  Other brands platform share, but most of those vehicles that are sharing platforms do not directly compete with each other.  Camrys & ES300s do not compete directly with each other, for example.  When any brand re-produces a model at the same or similar price point, it's idiotic in my book.  I don't care what brand is doing it.

Thankifully, GM is getting better at platform sharing, but they have so many brands they need to produce new products for, they simply do not have the budget to create unique models for each brand.

This is why Lutz's plan to have Saturn share models with Opel is brilliant.  IMO, it ensures the future of Saturn more than any move since the division was created.

Pontiac, however, just seems lost.  Pontiac might make sense to me if there were no Red Line Saturns, no SS Chevys etc.  Will the Pursuit outrun a Cobalt SS?  The Solstice, if test drives are to be believed, cannot outrun a Sky...  That, to me, sounds like Pontiac is completely lost.

If you ask me, Pontiac should, if left alive, be treated like an in-house tuner firm...  Send them your 260hp Sky & they'll turn it into a 300hp STI killer.  As it is now, it's just an also-ran & will remain one under this "new" plan...  they should call it the deja-vu plan, imo.

Well if Pontiac went all RWD, they wouldn't be shared. All of GM is not going RWD. The compact RWD Pontiac will be a better performer than the Cobalt/Astra, the midsize RWD Pontiac will be a better performer than the Malibu. The reasons you stated are why Pontiac needs to go all RWD. Pontiacs current lineup is pointless, but that doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.

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Mr.Krinkle    0

id take a g6 over a malibu any day of the week.

id take a ws6 over a camaro--probably, but wouldnt complain either way.

id even take the g5 over a cobalt

there are differences. perhaps they need to be exaggerated more so but the framework is still there. im gonna go ahead and guess once the restructuring truly starts to take hold well see the changes.

thats what makes the task at hand so difficult right now. for the last 20-30 years things were just floating along, no big deal. only recently someone woke up and realized slick names or radical concepts arent enough.

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roopull    0

Well if Pontiac went all RWD, they wouldn't be shared. All of GM is not going RWD. The compact RWD Pontiac will be a better performer than the Cobalt/Astra, the midsize RWD Pontiac will be a better performer than the Malibu. The reasons you stated are why Pontiac needs to go all RWD. Pontiacs current lineup is pointless, but that doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.

I hope you're right. Stranger things have happened at GM afterall. I mean, who ever thought - three or four years ago - that Saturn would have one he!! of a roadster, a good looking SUV & an even better looking one on the way (complete with hybrid version,) and a European based L replacement? Not I!!! I hope they get this right!

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evok    0

GM's Divisional General Managers back then DID have the titles of "Vice-President" just like Ed Mertz did back when I worked for Buick.

Mertz ('86-97) did not have the discretionary authority & divisional budget that earlier decades' GMs had. The point was that, not their job title.

Division GMs have had 'VP' titles since '33.

How'd I do, evok?

THe VP/GMs of the Divisions have been useless since the regulatory period began in the 1970's. The Roger Smith re-org in the mid 1980s was the final straw.

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