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Lutz talks about a streched Kappa for Pontiac (MT)

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In the new MT, there was a short interview with Lutz as a compliment to the Solstice article. Here's what Lutz said: "If you could have a magic wand and have a four-door version, then maybe strech the architecture and have a sort of a BMW 3 Series, that's what the Pontiac guys want. We have to pick out investments and allocate our engineering assests carefully, but that's their desire." So it sounds as if Kappa CAN be streched, it's just a matter of whether they want to spend the money to do it or not.
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It can be stretched. It can also accomodate a V6 or even V8 engine. The question is does General Motors want to spend the needed capital to do it?

I'll say....YES.

The Nomad got many thinking inside the company and that vehicle was essentially an all new architecture from Kappa due to the stretching.
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Well I dont think a V-8 is needed because of the GP and the V-6 is questionable but then there is the G6 but a powerfull 4 would make this a great car
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Just do it, and I'll buy it. Keep it lightweight, and the 2.4 liter ecotec should be fine.
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I think that Kappa is the answer to keep Pontiac alive and well- they should make a 3 series killer out of it now: not the bloated, Bangled, burdened-by-electronic 3 series of today, but a lean, mean driving machine: and they should be able to keep it exclusive for two years, before Cadillac is able to use the platform for a more luxurious version to be the BLS in both Europe and the US.
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A stretched Kappa makes so much sense it boggles my mind as to why GM wouldn't do it. Make a stretched Kappa and then give us a 3-series competitor for Pontiac, or even 1-series, I don't care, make it a coupe and a sedan, make a Solstice hardtop. Make a stretched Kappa a 4 seater Buick vert to compete with the Lexus SC430, price it at around 40-55k, beautiful styling, great engines, sumptuous interior, great features. Make a Camaro-brother, a smaller Probe sized RWD sports coupe, call it the Panter, whatever, make a Saturn twin. Whateva- so many ideas, too bad I'm not an exec...
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Something like this would definetly be near or at the top of my list when it comes time to buy a new car (not for a few years, until I'm through college) and if they could get a turbo 2.4L Ecotec with ~250HP to me for around $27k and close to loaded, I'd definetly buy it assuming I could afford it right out of college. The possibilities on a LWB Kappa are endless. Nomad, Curve-like coupe (maybe Sky but with four seats and no convert?), trucklets, mini sport wagons, possibly a TRUE 3-Series fighter for Cadillac if they spent the money to put the V6 in it. The whole Pontiac small-car line could morph onto Kappa: sedan, Solstice, Solstice coupe, Vibe.
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My Kappa wishlist: Pontiac Phoenix compacts: four-place coupe/sedan/wagon (Ecotec, Atlas 5, could easily be engineered for an Atlas 6 or, for a limited production model, a V-8. Why should it be stuck with a pushrod V-6?) Buick Thrasher compact sedan (Ecotec turbo, HF) Pontiac Firebird grand touring car: 2+2 coupe, targa coupe, convertible (again, Atlas 6 and V-8s of two sizes) Chevy Camaro (ditto, but not in looks, and no targa model available) Pontiac Solstice coupe the discontinuation of the Sky!! I think a Cadillac compact (named Manchester) and a new Eldorado should stick to Sigma
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The Nomad got many thinking inside the company and that vehicle was essentially an all new architecture from Kappa due to the stretching.

[post="11030"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I would buy the Nomad yesterday if it was on the market.
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I didn't like this article as it said too many bad things about the Fiero. Fucking bastards. :angry: Anywho... I just want a 4-seat coupe and sedan powered by various versions of Ecotec engines including turbo-charged. Oh, and a starting price below $20,000... Even if just. But what I really want is for the engine to be switched to the other end, with two seats, fastback flying buttresses (sp?), and the name Fiero.
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Of course its possible to build a RWD 4 door for Pontiac. Anything is possible. However, just because its possible doesnt mean its price effective. It just a matter of money to be able to do it, but will they ever get the money back? If it sounds like anything, its that Lutz has been watching the online community and has seen our pleas for a Kappa Sunfire replacement. That doesnt mean anyone at GM has looked into actually doing it. Edited by erunion
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NS: We have had this discussion before. Kappa sucks as a flexible architecture. It is not that easy to stretch. Not saying it is not possible. The problem is the center structural tunnel. There would have to be a lot of rework to the structure to make it practical for a 3 Series sort of car.

The kappa platform would need a significant amount of rework to the point that it would not be recognizable as a kappa. So the cost benefit is just not there.

GM as I have said before, would be better off, developing a flexible small car rwd platform and base the next generation roadsters off that and use that as a basis for a 3 Series type vehicle.

Kappa by design is horrible for anything other than sports type cars. Edited by evok
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I agree with Evok GM made a mistake with Kappa - they built basically a shrunken Corvette, in the process making it inherently unsuitable for anything other than a low volume sports car. They should have built a conventional small RWD platform and used it for, among other things, a competitor for the BMW 1 series, which is selling like hotcakes in Europe. But they do have a platform in the broader group which would make a great 3 series competitor - the Subaru WRX. Not a rebadge like the 9-2X but put an all new body on it and there's your 3 series.
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It ain't gonna happen guys. I wish it would, but it won't.

[post="11125"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



That's what people said about the Solstice being built and look what happened there.
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That's what people said about the Solstice being built and look what happened there.

[post="11252"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Nobody said that about Solstice.

If you want to stretch Kappa....you won't have Kappa anymore. You'll have an all new architecture - that costs like an all new architecture.

Believe me, I've wanted it to happen and I've looked into it.
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To add to Chazman's comments in response to Cadillacfan's, here is some insight into the Solstice and Kappa as explained to me: 1) The design for the Kappa architecture was for the most part complete when Lutz arrived at GM. Meaning the math data for a small sports car platform was sitting as 1 and 0's in a mainframe. So it was off the shelf in many ways from a technical perspective. 2) The Solstice styling was for the most part complete when Lutz steped on board. He championed the orgaization to develop a running prototype using off the shelf parts for NAIAS in record time. 3) Most import, the Solstice from 2002 concept to 2005 production was a mechanism for Lutz to push to product development organization. In essense the Solstice and Sky were managerial exercises. Edited by evok
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evok, am I correct in interpreting your comments as you saying in a roundabout way is that Lutz is getting more credit than he should with regard to the Solstice. In reality, the car was in the pipeline (long) before he got there and many aspects of it were already decided on before he got there. If true, then that's very...interesting to know.
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evok, am I correct in interpreting your comments as you saying in a roundabout way is that Lutz is getting more credit than he should with regard to the Solstice. In reality, the car was in the pipeline (long) before he got there and many aspects of it were already decided on before he got there. If true, then that's very...interesting to know.

[post="11276"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



Lutz is the father of the Solstice and without him there probably would not be a Solstice or a Sky. Prior to Lutz, there was no Solstice program.

The couple of points I was making:

From a product development perspective and getting the vehicle to market as quickly as they did, a lot of the up front (hard part) engineering of the platform was done. This probably save a year if not more in gestation time.

So as a result, to "rush" the program as quickly to market as possible, kappa is a platform with limited flexibility.

Lutz also needed a high profile project to make his mark on the organization fast. With Solstice he did not have to kill programs that were already in development, recadence launches or spend limited resourses. This was a pet project that did not cause the organization to go into disarray or disrupt product development but showed quickly what he is in the process of doing with the rest of product development.

Finially portfolio and design work on a lot of stuff that never gets a GMX/T code or will ever see the light of day on the road. Kappa was just one of those projects that happen to make it to market for some of the reasons I mentioned above. Edited by evok
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So the best we can hope for is for GM to be working on a Kappa II for the next gen Solstice and Sky, and that they will make Kappa II flexible enough to be used for something with a backseat?
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If they ever made it I would have to buy it! But then again, I may just have to buy before they make that decision!
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Not to mention the build process on Kappa is so difficult GM has only produced about 800 of the first 1,000 vehicles since production started the last week of July. Many vehicles sit in the shipping lot awaiting inspection.
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I would buy the Nomad yesterday if it was on the market.

[post="11140"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


My mantra. A friend of mine thought the Nomad nothing special until he saw it the San Francisco auto show. He started drooling!
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Kappa could revolutionize GM. It has the ability to save Pontiac, make Cadillac a credible competitor in Europe and spawn an affordable pony car for Chevrolet just to name a few. But, I think it'll be a wasted opportunity. If it is true that Kappa isn't that flexible (Which would make sense being that it is essentially a scaled down Y-Body) then why not try to justify the volume for the needed major changes and then commit the resources. Basically, I think a business case could be made for a stretched Kappa if GM implements it well enough. I'm talking 3 cars for Pontiac (Solstice coupe/convertible, Small RWD sedan & A Vibe replacing wagon) BLS and BRX replacements for Cadillac, The Sky for Saturn, the convertible for Opel/Vauxhall a Camaro for Chevrolet, maybe a coupe or 4-door convertible for Buick. The possibilities are endless (Of course with those endless possibilities comes endless $$$ and complexity) but maybe, just maybe they can build a business case.
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