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ICE is the past and the present. After 2030, I am not sure that ICE will be the future. ICE certainly has another good decade in it, but BEV will take over, even if it is a relatively a slow crawl to get to full BEV mainstream acceptance on the road.

?? I was telling my GF the other day.. I'm tired of doing Island trips.. f@#k the beach. Our next trip is a train ride all the East coast to Maine. She can go if she wants.. or stay the hell home . We can just enjoy the cities.. and the sites. Take it in U know. Either way.. U wanna see conservatism that bewilders the hell out of me.. look no further than @ocnblu. While he and I have a lot in common.. at a certain point I break with his ideology on automotive. GM wants to move to EVs, away from ICEs. VW too.. I applaud this, while some say its preposterous

The Navigator doesn't feel at all slow.... with the 10-speed you are always in the deep deep powerband. I don't care what the ultimate 0-60 is, it is a terrible measure of performance. The Aviator... especially the GT model with all of the electric torque should feel the same.

Are you sure about that? A lot of countries take this stuff seriously to keep high-flying executives from fleeing their country while under indictment. The USA has not be as diligent when it comes to financial crimes as it has been with violent crimes.

The pricing may well be nuts, but it is what the market will bear. I doubt any non-luxury sedan can get away with that pricing as of now.

I'm pretty sure that's correct. This package just seems like a way to con the consumer out of $3500(the package is worth about $1500, imo).

This is pre-WWII Japan, thinking their crap doesn't stink.

Good interview with former Ford CEO https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/12/13/former-ford-ceo-speaks-on-his-tenure-at-the-automaker.html https://www.wood-database.com/white-willow/ Willow is a notoriously soft and unproductive species though. https://www.autoevolution.com/news/ford-fusion-mondeo-coupe-looks-like-evos-concept-42167.html Link is acting Funky, ford fusion coupe would have been interesting, especially if they had done an SHO version.

Funny that they are saying how hard it for them to do an EV, considering their corporate siblings Audi and Porsche are just about there. Just take the eTron GT or Taycan, put on some squared bodywork, mesh grille, quilted seats and lots of wood, and instant Bentley EV. Seems inefficient that each brand within VWAG would be developing their own EV technology and platforms, seems like the dirty bits would be shared across the brands, as they do now with ICE platforms and powertrains.

Mix is good, we need a mix of educated, political, driven people to keep America Great as it always has been. That is why the Auto industry is such a passion, the great mix of options. Something hopefully for everyone. Horse n Buggy for our Amish members to EVs for the future forward thinking like you and me.

I totally agree, in my early years out of college I was at a company with a union and had to join as it was a requirement, less than 30 days, was also written up for doing more work than others of equal job and others who had that job but was not doing it. Less I say, by 90 days I had found a job with better pay and no union crap. Twice in my life once in College and once afterwards I worked for Unions and they gave me nothing but grief. Unions had a good place in the early days, now just political gas bags of waste that only serve a very small portion of humanity. More and more people are better educated and know they do not need to pay someone to get a fair wage and job growth.

You are so right when you say that America is a conservative country. Not getting political...but Americans hate change or anything new. Why the eff do we have Appleby's a restaurant chain that screams mediocrity if one ever did....all over the country? Half of America is shopping malls and strip malls with the same crappy clothing retailers selling the same inferior made in Malaysia fashions that look about as vapid and mindless as that Corolla you were writing about? See the USA in your Chevrolet...I want to see the parts of it that are invigorating, exciting, unique, forward looking, progressive, dynamic, changing, and positive. Give me craft beer, real new England Clam chowder, a Midwestern High school Football game...with a good band show at half time...

Or American made goods are more expensive. I work in the skilled trades...lots of guys want to buy American until they see a higher price. then loyalty goes out the door. Me...I like a lot of imported cars, but most of my tools and personal items are American made. Other part of the problem is that we have abandoned whole industries. Try to buy an American made Camera or TV set. But with cars...I think there is also a negative social stigma to driving domestic...like you live in floyover country and live in a trailer park or suburbia and don't lead an interesting life. And yes, the quality perception persists.

More importantly, both look and feel like a million bucks...color me impressed.

??

This in no way, should be second to some damn fat nosed 7series

Damn I hate missing out on the start of these conversations. Look! I get what the Unions are doing. Both the UAW and CAW want to retain their livelihood. Its an inevitable stance. Its a necessary stance. But it is a stance that each and every one of them should have thought about a decade or two ago.. when they saw and knew that the tide was turning and the non-unionized manufactures were muscling in on their customers as well as their jobs. U CANNOT HAVE BOTH! U can not lose your customers and still keep your jobs. U HAVE TO SELL YOUR PRODUCT JUST AS MUCH AS THE DEALERSHIPS! Ironically they, say that they "Made GM" and that GM is betraying them.. but what about the betrayal to GM.. themselves when U look in each and everyone of their driveways.. their families' driveways.. their friends' driveways.. and see a fukkin Toyota, Honda etc? Here's the deal.. Since emerging from Bankruptcy in 2010 GM has added about 29,000 employees, about 50% are salaried, the other half Hourly. GM currently has 50,000 salaried employees, and as of Jan '17 GM employed 97,000 total people in the U.S. Chrysler employs 56,900 and Ford employs 85,000. Honestly speaking, GM has too many employees considering their market share. In fact they have too many employees even if their market share was 5 points higher. Interesting fact, is that Toyota only has 30,000 US. employees. It has to occur to some one, some where that GM has been a welfare company for far too long. They employee way to many Americans who don't appreciate their employment status. All of them do not even support the company with a simply thing such as having an all GM new car driveway (not including hobbie classic cars from other manufacturers.) Imagine a situation where employees at Lordstown or Detroit-Ham actually actively recommended a Cruze, Volt, CT6, Lacrosse, Impala to their family and friends. How about the community and city of Detroit do the same? Why? Because supporting your plant meant supporting jobs, keeping jobs. Hypothetically John, who, along with his dad owns "Gios," the restaurant that serves DH employees daily, rolls up to the restaurant his new Avalon instead of an even Consumer Reports top pick, Impala. One sale lost, now two, now three. Detroit-Ham closes. Six months later, "Gio's" closes. Now John is making his car payments to Toyota Finance using unemployment money he gets fed. He's sour on GM for closing the plant. What if he had of just bought an Impala and spread the word that it is a great car? German employees know this. They support the hell out of their local plants even when their car is a piece of junk VW. Moving on to what @oldshurst442 is saying about GM/Ford/Chry/ building junk during the 70s-80s-90s.. I call bull$h!. Junk compared to who? The Foreign makers were no better than the domestics during that time.. they simply were an alternative. Gas mileage? Yes in the 70s when the gas shortage occurred and their was a move to make vehicle more efficient, the domestics got blindsided. THE FOREIGN MAKERS WERE MORE EFFICIENT BY DEFAULT! Americans loved V8s.. almost every car U bought from the Domestics had a V8. Imagine the equivalent of the Cruze.. THE CRUZE.. the Chevy Monza being sold with a V8 under the hood. The Datsun B210 had a 65hp 1.4L with 65hp.. U are damn right it got better fuel economy. Yes U could get a Chevette (Acadian in Canada) with a similar engine to the Datsun's 1.4L and get the same fuel economy.. but AMERICANS bought V8s and V6s.. 4cylinders were looked down on. Reliability? Another bull$h!t thing that was pushed up by the anti-domestic crew. There literally was a thing going around that all foreign cars were more reliable than domestics. Even if they weren't the perception was in place and it transferred to all of them whether they were or not. Datsun/Nissans were POSs. Peugeots were POSs. Alfa Romeos, Fiats, BMW, Audis, even the early Hondas and Toyota.. certainly Mazdas and Isuzus.. POSs. If it wasn't an issue with the powertrain it was an issue with the structural integrity of the bodies. Take a look outside next time U get up from your PC or phone. SERIOUSLY. HOW MANY CLASSIC FOREIGN CARS DO U REALLY SEE THAT WERE DAILY DRIVERS STILL RUNNING AROUND? I can tell U I saw two 1984 Cavaliers the other day. I see Cadillacs that should have been retired or RESTORED 10 years ago still running around. Buicks LeSabres like the ones I know I got a ride to middle school in still rolling up the Blvd.. Shocks squeaking, trim hanging. But why not? They are going on 35 years old. That 1990 Honda Accord? Haven't seen one in 15 years. That Camry from 1992 that was the models first best selling model???? Haven't seen one in years. Damn sure still see Corsicas, f@#kkin Skylarks, and goofy ass Ford Escorts. Would U believe I saw a K-Car the other day? No Daihatsu, or Sterlings (or the Acura Legend it was based on) from 1990. Call them $h!ty if U like.. but I see Buick Reattas and Cadillac Allantes still cruising around, as well as Chevy Caprices, both the rounded ones and the boxy ones. THE PERCEPTION THAT FOREIGN WAS/IS BETTER WAS A BUNCH OF BULL$#!+!!! Profitability GM builds the Sonic profitable due to UAW concessions at the onset of the car's changeover from Aveo... GM was able to run the plant with 40 percent of the workers at a tier two wage, about half of the $29 per hour that regular UAW workers make. Remember that car too tho, was up for death earlier this year but after it was realized that the Cruze was a better kill.. GM threw support behind keeping the more viable Sonic. (Again I believe that they should keep the Cruze name for the Sonic), not to mention the Sonic also shares its platform with the Trax and Encore, a car that quite frankly may have started the revolution of leaving small cars to get into a small CUV. In truth.. If Americans and Canadians want more GM vehicles built in America, say Detroit-Ham or Lordstown, they should have made certain that the vehicles built there were the number one vehicles you saw when you entered the area at least. People at Fairfax should be currently buying Malibus by the dozen. I mean that. The only thing one could perhaps cry about would be the lack of a V6, which is a ball drop on GM for not putting marketing in place to let it be known that the 2.0L was a viable and better alternative to the 3.6L, with more torque allowing for almost identical acceleration. The quality, content and styling of that vehicle in no way is inferior to a Camry or Accord, although I would say many nit-pick a GM product to the brink of it slitting its own risk versus a Asian or Euro product. By that I mean I have witnessed many giving a pass on the overall shoddy engineering of a Range Rover's powertrain, but hold it in higher regard over an Escalade due to CUE not having buttons. But that's the mentality of Americans/Canadians. The standard is so high, but the product must be so cheap for Domestic makers. There is an article over on, of all places, TRUTH ABOUT CARS, a publication that has historically hated GM while simultaneously boosting Toyota and the like.. The article (another one) essentially gives a glowing review of the CADILLAC CT6.. yet when U read some of the comments after the review.. trollish people are putting the car down for the most bullcrap reasons. Some actually admitting mistakenly I'm sure, that they had never even sat in one let alone driven one. Saying they would not pay $100K for the car, while at the same time saying they would pay $100K for an Audi A8 or 7Series. I mean.. Do you really think a BMW 550 is worth $10,000 more than a CTS VSport? $35,000 Toyota Avalon worth more than the $28,000 Chevy Impala? Seriously I PRAY that someone is able to get thru to GM to keep production going on that car.. even if its moved to another plant. It is literally one of the beacons of drawing in conquest sales.. of course marketing would help. The link for the review is below. CT6 Review from TTAC Interesting .. Jalopnik broke this story yesterday.. VW GIVES AMERICAN THE MIDDLE FINGER..literally Americans.. its how foreign automakers really feel about U and U continue to send them your money while shunning your own industry. Personally.. as I've said before.. GM, Ford, and even Chrysler should give all y'all the middle finger, pack up.. and take everyone if its almost 270K workers with them, pushing this country into an economic depression worst than 1929 ever did.

Modern unions are mostly trash. Overpaid for their work and god forbid they do more work than their very specific work title.. I had a buddy work for a union for a bit and he legitimately got written up for doing MORE work because it was somebody else's job(who wasn't there) and he just did it do get it done so work could continue to flow. They're fckn trash these days. The initial intent was great but they've turned into a joke.

This is really kind of cool!

You should know me by now- I'm a facts-based guy. I read 'perceived' all the time- it's vapor. 'People' think toyootas are great, they're not; I dismiss the perception. 'People' think GM's are garbage, they're not; I dismiss the perception as a waste of time. People think all sorts of things all the time ---Oh no; a black cat!!--- people can (and should) do better. I don't care how many CT6s Cadillac sells, it's not the point of the brand. If it's an excellent car befitting of it's position and it's profitable, they can sell 100/yr. Eldorados of the Golden Age sold in perilously low numbers. So far, and in constricted language, the assembly plants in question are "unallocated" beyond 2019. I have read this is due to UAW agreement terms. But recall that the CTS jumped assembly plants (IIRC)- all the articles I saw were assuming the CT6 was being cancelled; what if it is getting moved instead? LGR is getting heavily retooled as we speak. We'll see what happens...

It is no secret that Bentley is working on an electric vehicle. What has been unclear is when said vehicle is expected to launch. Recently, Automotive News Europe had a sit-down with Bentley CEO Adrian Hallmark where he revealed that electric cars are seen "as another growth opportunity in a five- to 10-year period." Why the long period? "The problem is, with the size of our vehicles and the frontal area we push through, current battery-power density limits the size of the car with a credible driving range. The Jaguar I-Pace is the perfect-size car for the battery technology, but it’s too small for us. It’s all driven by power density of the battery, but there’s nothing industrialized in the supply chain before 2023-2024-2025. Only then does it open up the size of the vehicle and the category you can make a credible battery-powered car," said Hallmark. Hallmark wouldn't say what Bentley's full-electric vehicle would look like, but past rumors point to the possibility of the Mulsanne replacement of going full EV. Bentley knows that it needs an EV sooner or later. Hallmark said 40 percent of Bentley customers would consider buying an electric vehicle. Also, a set of possible Bentley customers, "the upper liberals and the post-moderns" are trending towards Porsche and Tesla models. Source: Automotive News Europe (Subscription Required) View full article

And again, I agree with this part of your post 100000000% And in reality, if you read my previous posts, if you read between the lines, I am saying EXACTLY that... The difference is that in your post, you are defending GM and not mentioning the reasons why all these publications cater to the hatred of American cars. I mentioned the reasons why. Ill go further though, in saying why these publications cater to the hatred. Advertising dollars that the foreign makes paid just for them to belittle American cars... And all that fueled the negative stigma that the Big 3 STILL have to endure today. However, this negative stigma does not seem to have spilled over to the CUVs and SUVs. Maybe, finally, the hatred of the American automobile is finally gone. With the near death of the car in the USA, and the CUV/SUV reality we have today, that negative stigma gets put to rest.

It's really too bad they didn't go the path Ford seems to be going w/ the new Bronco for the Blazer...

And the Jeep is the real thing!

Of course he's a flight risk...I'm surprised Renault didn't send a corporate jet to remove him. Corrupt sleazeball. Probably has cash stashed in the many cities around the world where he has apartments..

Edmunds.com has their build and price up for the Chevy Blazer. Way too expensive. I also went to cars.com, where the Blazer is available in search mode. Saw an AWD RS "in transit" listed at $51k. Completely nuts.

Gray cold afternoon out...spotted a dirty red C7 Corvette coupe w/ the personalized plate 'IIIIIII' (7 'I's)

I got weird results from those...Louisville, Ky, Charleston, SC and Memphis. Which is very odd, as I don't have a Southern accent. My parents were from Kentucky, my brother was born in Louisville. I really don't have an Upper Ohio Valley accent (I don't say warsh) or a Cleveland accent (I don't say 'ruff' for 'roof') either. Lived in NE Ohio, S Florida, SE Michigan, Colorado and Arizona. But I do say ‘soda’ and pronounce Aunt as ‘ant’...probably got that from my folks. Funny thing is, I've had coworkers when I lived in Colorado ask if I was from California because of my accent/lack of accent. (and my tendency to refer to freeways w/ 'the' like 'The 480').

Very weird considering I have not been to any of the places it says I talk like.

https://www.autoguide.com/manufacturer/ford/2014-ford-fiesta-st-review-video-2797.html Will miss the Fiesta ST when it is gone...

This times a million!

@Cmicasa the Great I totally get what you are saying above. I also know you and I have allot in common too including that while we love our little Amish boy @ocnblu and his stuck to the past thinking, you and I are for the future and the excitement that comes with it. Have a great Holiday weekend my friends! @A Horse With No Name @Robert Hall and everyone else here at C&G! Especially our fearless leader @drew

I choose all 3, trade in that crappy Hyundai, ban the half wit and enjoy that lovely pizza!

I am conservative on some things like the second Amendment and gun ownership rights. Not wanting to get into a political discussion, but like most Americans I am a mix.

I bet I am more liberal than you my friend, on many things, after all I live in Seattle! Second largest home of the Rainbow land behind San Francisco.

In regards to trading in a crappy Hyundai, banning a half wit, or giving in to the internal desire for really good pizza for lunch?

Its true.. some may not know, and most of my old AWCC and MTForum members that came here are gone.. but my heritage is American Black father who was a 1/4 Cherokee, a mother who is partially Black, White, and half Japanese. When I was young I would visit my family's home in Kobe, Japan.. where the sentiment pertaining to Americans was not so grateful as some were led to believe. I have cousins over there that work in the industry, specifically for Toyota who always call me laughing at the fact that we made the Camry the number one car in sales for almost two decades. Even he jokes about the mediocrity of the product.. and can't fathom why Americans pick almost two to one over the Malibu, Fusion, and Accord. He has on occasion down the same thing when talking about the Corolla. Once calling Americans idiots over the Corolla.. a vehicle that is the greatest compromise in history intermingling BLAND, BORING, UNDERPOWERED, and BASIC. He has commented to me that "the American companies try.. they even succeed at building better, more exciting, and just as reliable compacts, with newer technology and better styling.. while the Corolla, a car that still has linage that goes back 20 years.. continues to beat them in sales." (Chrysler picked up on this with the LX cars.. GM should still be selling Sigma/ZETA platforms and pre-Epsilon (WBody) Impalas base don this philosophy) Truth Toyota is smart. Americans don't desire advancement. The country is conservative. GM could have continued its formula of Solid Axle in the Tahoe for another 20 years. Should they have? no. The Cruze should have never been called Cruze, or Cobalt.. it should still be called Cavalier.. and that car should still be riding on the platform that made the Cobalt SS the best performance compact in America just 12 years ago. Change the styling.. upgrade the electronics and interior.. and market as new... THAT IS THE TOYOTA PHILOSOPHY TO PROFITS. Basic ass $h!. But... Americans would squawk on these forums.. in those magazine reviews. Domestics are the most scrutinized of all. Is there any other manufacturer that U can think of without using Google , where U know the actual name of the platform the specific car U are talking about is on? This.. without Google: Impala- Epsilon 2-L ATS CTS- Alpha and Alpha L CT6 Omega Tahoe Yukon Esca - K2XX Cruze D2xx.. Now ask me what the hell Nissan's Sentra, the Infiniti QX70 are one.. What about that Corolla? The BMW 5Series? Sh!t I can't tell U what the Accord is on. Right.. Sight unseen, someone asked me why I bought a CTS-V over the M5 or E63AMG.. They literally said, "but Cadillac.. that's an old man car. They float down the road." LMFAO when I picked their ass up and we went for a cruise down around 695.. They sounded like one of those commercials we often think are bull$h! .. "THIS IS A CADILLAC????" Failure of GM marketing. Failure of Americans' ability to accept evolution.

https://jalopnik.com/brand-new-volkswagen-arrives-at-dealer-and-drops-an-f-b-1831242214 Japanese often really look down on American culture also...something that is true of some the Japanese that work at Honda here in Ohio. Responding to Cmicassa.

A huge part of the problem IMHO is that Americans don't want to pay even a nickel more to buy anything American, be it tools, clothes, toys, pet supplies, shoes, or whatever. How many people on the line happily take their GM or Ford paycheck and run right over to WalMart to fill up the trunk of their Camry with Chinese made goods? That is gorgeous. False dichotomy, lots of people in management want what is best for the company and work their asses off for Ford or GM or the like. Management bad, Worker good is a wild oversimplification of the real state of affairs. "In truth.. If Americans and Canadians want more GM vehicles built in America, say Detroit-Ham or Lordstown, they should have made certain that the vehicles built there were the number one vehicles you saw when you entered the area at least. People at Fairfax should be currently buying Malibus by the dozen. I mean that. The only thing one could perhaps cry about would be the lack of a V6, which is a ball drop on GM for not putting marketing in place to let it be known that the 2.0L was a viable and better alternative to the 3.6L, with more torque allowing for almost identical acceleration. The quality, content and styling of that vehicle in no way is inferior to a Camry or Accord, although I would say many nit-pick a GM product to the brink of it slitting its own risk versus a Asian or Euro product. By that I mean I have witnessed many giving a pass on the overall shoddy engineering of a Range Rover's powertrain, but hold it in higher regard over an Escalade due to CUE not having buttons. But that's the mentality of Americans/Canadians. The standard is so high, but the product must be so cheap for Domestic makers." Quoted for Truth

This is a little dated and not automotive specific but it's quite significant. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf

"Called the AT4 Off-Road Performance Package, it will add a 6.2L V8, performance air intake, cat-back performance exhaust system, and a set Goodyear Wrangler DuraTrac tires with 18-inch alloy wheels" This isn't even an appearance package though. It's literally an intake, cat-back exhaust and tires for $5,000. I mean I guess you get a different set of 18" wheels.. but it already comes with 18" wheels with the AT4 on "all terrain" tires.

There wasn't a link, but I found this test, an old article from the NYT. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/dialect-quiz-map.html?_r=1

Bless your heart

Coach doors on an Aviator would be amazing. It would be the making of Lincoln great again.

I, for one, ABSOLUTELY can deny that a civi-rolla is "built like a tank"- they're cheap, plasticy, disposable appliances. And there's no myth about toyota recalling 50 million plus vehicles over the last 15 years for horrendously bad engineering. The frame rot fiasco is a personal fave I can't get past- that was a 1910-level mistake... but in 2010. We could examine how shitty japanese cars from the '70s ALSO were if the tin worm hadn't eat them all into rust flakes.

So why can BMW and Honda build here at a profit and GM and Ford cannot? Also....think of the cool stuff we would be getting it people were more behind U.S. auto makers. Hummer would still be in production...we would be getting the next gen Focus...perhaps a truly hot Taurus SHO. F As it is Malibu will sort of be last man standing for domestic passenger cars that are just regular automobiles.

It would be better if half the import buyers would buy GM products instead. Last 40 years have been rather painful. While I cannot blame Unifor for this publicity stunt, they would be better off getting their fellow Canadians to stop buying Japanese.

10 PRINT "LIVE EDGE"; 20 GOTO 10 RUN