Report on Early Tesla Model S Claims two thirds will need powertrain replacement before 60,000 miles

[ocnblu]

How is everyone this fine evening? 

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a18489/two-thirds-of-early-tesla-model-s/

[ccap41]

It's covered under its 8year warranty. Not as big of a deal as the title leads to believe, IMO.

[El Kabong]

Pretty crazy failure rate. Especially for such a major component.

[FAPTurbo]

Big automakers like GM can't get simple things like ignition right, so this isn't really a big deal considering it's under warranty.

[El Kabong]

Big part, fair bit of labour...

[ocnblu]

Let that sink in for a moment... SIXTY PERCENT FAILURE RATE FOR A VEHICLE'S MOTIVE FORCE.  Can anyone imagine if ANY other automaker had such a high failure rate with a conventional ICE?  That is an INSANE, LUDICROUS percentage of failure for any modern device, let alone an $80-$100k automobile.  You've got to be kidding me.  And who is to say that the failure rate will not continue?  So silly.

[ocnblu]

It's covered under its 8year warranty. Not as big of a deal as the title leads to believe, IMO.

Really?  The average age of vehicles on American roads in the last several years has hovered around the eleven year mark.  So you are saying that these things will never achieve average age?  Because who is going to pay to keep these things going after 8 years, with this kind of failure rate?  What a colossal waste of money.

[El Kabong]

Rookies building cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

Did any of you, especially the OP, even READ the article from Green Car Reports?  The statistics come from 327 cars (1% of total) from the 2012 and 2013 model years and only 30 cars from the 2014 and 2015 model years. 

 

 

 

Tesla's policy is to replace them when they begin to make noise, without waiting for them actually to fail mechanically.

 

 

That's right... your Colorado starts to make a funny noise under the hood, so Chevrolet has a standard policy of REPLACING THE ENTIRE V6 ENGINE, TRANSMISSION, AND FOUR WHEEL DRIVE components. </fanstasyworld>

 

GM has needed to replace more timing chains on the 3.6 V6 than Tesla has built cars. 

 

Stop spreading F.U.D.

[ccap41]

 

It's covered under its 8year warranty. Not as big of a deal as the title leads to believe, IMO.

Really?  The average age of vehicles on American roads in the last several years has hovered around the eleven year mark.  So you are saying that these things will never achieve average age?  Because who is going to pay to keep these things going after 8 years, with this kind of failure rate?  What a colossal waste of money.

 

lol that's not what I said at all.  

 

If the average age is 11 years then it will be fixed and good to go within that 11 year period, not on the customer's dime.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

It's covered under its 8year warranty. Not as big of a deal as the title leads to believe, IMO.

Really?  The average age of vehicles on American roads in the last several years has hovered around the eleven year mark.  So you are saying that these things will never achieve average age?  Because who is going to pay to keep these things going after 8 years, with this kind of failure rate?  What a colossal waste of money.

 

 

You failed at reading.

 

You are confusing proactive warranty replacement with a failure rate. These were NOT catastrophic motor failures being reported.  And in the process the owners receive a new motor of updated design with zero miles on it.

 

Tesla is not like the legacy car companies... they make rolling changes to their designs and deploy them at any point in the model year. If you have a 2012 Model S with VIN #2, and you get this power train replacement, you end up with a motor that is updated to the same design as the latest 2015/16 motor.

[surreal1272]

Did any of you, especially the OP, even READ the article from Green Car Reports?  The statistics come from 327 cars (1% of total) from the 2012 and 2013 model years and only 30 cars from the 2014 and 2015 model years. 

 

 

 

Tesla's policy is to replace them when they begin to make noise, without waiting for them actually to fail mechanically.

 

 

That's right... your Colorado starts to make a funny noise under the hood, so Chevrolet has a standard policy of REPLACING THE ENTIRE V6 ENGINE, TRANSMISSION, AND FOUR WHEEL DRIVE components. </fanstasyworld>

 

GM has needed to replace more timing chains on the 3.6 V6 than Tesla has built cars. 

 

Stop spreading F.U.D.

You beat me to it. Knew there was a slanted agenda to this just by the title of the thread. "Oh Hi, I didn't actually read what the subject was actually about"! Lol

[David]

Yawn, nothing to get your panties in a twist about. Move on.

[FAPTurbo]

[Suaviloquent]

Pretty bad premise for a thread.

 

They're going for having extremely satisfied customers and no dealing with dealers that don't comply to such high standards.

 

And I think it was already mentioned in a thread wayyy before, Tesla is taking no chances. A whiff of trouble and they'll investigate.

 

No other automaker can do this. None. VW's going through such a mess to uncover hidden faults, and so have others in the past. Yet here Tesla is trying to brings issues to the surface, trying to find mistakes.

[oldshurst442]

Its good thing I was driving around in my partner's Tesla P85D today and I missed this thread entirely...

Yeah...he finally took delivery of it...

 

And me test driving it today of all days when this thread appeared its like when Jeremy Roenick made fun of Patrick Roy and Patrick had this to say:

 

Let me tell you, the P85D just is...well, take a test drive of one yourself...

[ocnblu]

Nah I'm good. 

 

What nincompoop changed my thread title?

Edited December 12, 2015 by ocnblu

[ccap41]

Its good thing I was driving around in my partner's Tesla P85D today and I missed this thread entirely...

Yeah...he finally took delivery of it...

 

And me test driving it today of all days when this thread appeared its like when Jeremy Roenick made fun of Patrick Roy and Patrick had this to say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaiN8HjEy74

 

Let me tell you, the P85D just is...well, take a test drive of one yourself...

Hahahaha I love it!

So..slightly off topic, how was it? Let's answer the tougher question. What DIDNT you like about it?

[Suaviloquent]

Nah I'm good. 

 

What nincompoop changed my thread title?

 

You'll have to guess which 'nincompoop' it was.

 

But I'll divulge just this much. I don't think highly enough of this thread or its topic to think it even deserved the mercy of a change in title. 

[ocnblu]

Thanks for the clue!

 

What's wrong with the topic?  It's been all over the internet.  Why censor it here?  I read the entire Popular Mechanics article.  So, the powers that be at Cheers & Gears think that censoring Popular Mechanics, published since 1902 is a good idea?  And it has been reported by many news outlets.  Is Cheers & Gears going to retreat to its own little kingdom, or is it going to join the real world?

 

Who cares if the sample is small?  Things might get WORSE for Tesla if the sample were larger.  Or they might get better... but the damage is done.  It cannot be argued away.

Edited December 12, 2015 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

Question for Drew:  please link the exact number of 3.6L timing chains replaced by GM.  Thanks.

[oldshurst442]

It was...FREAKIN' AWESOME!!!

 

I have NEVER in my entire life EVER driven a faster car than that Tesla P85D...No ludicrous mode, just the normal P85D.

Man, in half a block (OK...let me try and get a guestimate...in yards as well...to explain to you how fast the thing went when I slammed the accelerator pedal...because it aint a gas pedal...)  The acceleration is instantaneous....there was no shift shock from a gear changing....just smooth linear acceleration that pulled you in your seat and kept you there with no jerking...like I said...no shift shock...what a feeling...

 

I dont know....65-70 yards.maybe even 60 yards...the bloody car reached 55-60 MPH and then I had to decelerate...man the thing just stopped...no ABS brakes came on either...

 

There isnt anything I dont like about the car....yet...the thing is still new and I did not get a chance to see what it is I dont like about it....

 

Maybe the quality of the materials....they feel light...not that the materials are cheap...the material are very comparable to my 2012 Acura TL...but that is the thing...in 2012, the Acural TL SH-AWD sold for $50 000 CDN....the Tesla P85D in 2015 sells for double that...Ill keep you posted about it....and how my partner feels about it too...

[ocnblu]

*****yawn***off-topic***yawn***

[Drew Dowdell]

I changed the topic title to an actual topic so that new visitors might actually know what the topic is about. I have always reserved the right to make those types of changes for ease of navigation of the site.

You're right in that the damage from this agenda driven F U.D. propaganda is done, but I'm glad I'm able to use my little corner of the web to try and set the record straight.

I don't like agendas, especially when they use dodgey facts and statistics like this one does. I don't care if they're for or against a company that I'm for or against.

[oldshurst442]

Dear Blu...Your loss buddy...

 

1.21 gigawatts

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since you dont want to acknowledge the power of electricity...I made a little compilation for you to be entertained....we started off with Hollywood film lore and ended it with powerful human history who marveled it and tried to harness it...and harness it we did...like I said...your loss buddy...

Edited December 12, 2015 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

Question for Drew:  please link the exact number of 3.6L timing chains replaced by GM.  Thanks.

 

The timing chain issue covers the 2.8, 2.8T, 3.0, and 3.6 spanning back to 2004 with millions of units sold, even just 5,000,000 vehicles (and that is low) with a 2% failure rate is over 100,000 vehicles totaling 200,000 timing chains or more. 

 

It's a widespread enough issue that GM has extended the warranty on all of this family of V6es to 120,000 miles, but repairs are happening as low as 9,000 miles.  My friend at the Buick dealer gets Lambdas back in the shop with under 36k miles on them needing timing chain replacements.

[ocnblu]

 

Question for Drew:  please link the exact number of 3.6L timing chains replaced by GM.  Thanks.

 

The timing chain issue covers the 2.8, 2.8T, 3.0, and 3.6 spanning back to 2004 with millions of units sold, even just 5,000,000 vehicles (and that is low) with a 2% failure rate is over 100,000 vehicles totaling 200,000 timing chains or more. 

 

It's a widespread enough issue that GM has extended the warranty on all of this family of V6es to 120,000 miles, but repairs are happening as low as 9,000 miles.  My friend at the Buick dealer gets Lambdas back in the shop with under 36k miles on them needing timing chain replacements.

 

Thanks for the info, as you know I have a personal stake in the quality of the 3.6L engine.  Clearly you don't know the answer to my question, so you are using math to blind me, but that is OK.  And as for Dom's testimony, I have been attacked on here in the past for sharing personal work experiences as "agenda-driven", so I choose to dismiss what he's told you about 3.6L repair frequency.  I've seen no evidence that my engine is under warranty for an extra 20k miles anywhere in my paperwork.    The GM 3.6L is on Ward's 10 Best Engines list again for 2016.

 

I do understand why you changed the topic title to something searchable.  It also serves to spread the inconvenient article even further across the interweb thingy.

 

oldshurst442, your Yoda post is hilarious.  (hug)

 

I believe in the integrity of Popular Mechanics (you realize they are not tech haters, but tech geeks, right?) hence why I used the link to their article reporting what has been published by multiple media outlets.

 

What I was saying about the eleven year average age (and inexplicably got shot down) was this:  in every instance I know of, a warranty lasts a certain time.  Are you saying that Tesla's warranty is perpetual, or does it last for 8 years?  If the drive motor fails at, for example, 3 years with 50k miles on the unit and Tesla replaces it, who is to say that drive motor won't fail again right after the 8 year period?  Anyone who thinks clearly can see that this is not a confidence building scenario.  It is a "fool me once" situation. 

 

I would guess even Fiat, a perpetual bottom dweller on every quality survey known to man and beast, does not have a 60% failure rate on their engines, but that is anecdotal, I cannot be certain of that. 

Edited December 12, 2015 by ocnblu

[Drew Dowdell]

I would guess even Fiat, a perpetual bottom dweller on every quality survey known to man and beast, does not have a 60% failure rate on their engines, but that is anecdotal, I cannot be certain of that. 

TESLA DOES NOT HAVE A 60% MOTOR FAILURE RATE! YOU HAVE A 100% FAILURE RATE IN READING COMPREHENSION.

[Drew Dowdell]

Popular Mechanics linked to an article that used dodgey data with HUGE statistical flaws.  The author of the original article on Green Car Reports cannot even calculate 5% v 0.5% correctly.... he is replying in the comments and gets the math wrong MULTIPLE times. 

 

Here is the extended warranty for the timing chains... so STICK IT in your files.

 

 

 

#11340C: Special Coverage Adjustment-Timing Chain Wear - (Feb 16, 2012)

Subject:   11340C – Special Coverage Adjustment — Timing Chain Wear

Models:    2009 Buick Enclave
2007-2009 Cadillac CTS, SRX, STS
2009 Chevrolet Traverse
2007 GMC Acadia
2009 GMC Acadia
2007 Saturn OUTLOOK
2009 Saturn OUTLOOK
Equipped with 2.8L/3.6L Engine (LP1/LY7/LLT)

Condition
On some 2007 model year Cadillac CTS, SRX, STS; GMC Acadia; and Saturn OUTLOOK vehicles that are equipped with a 2.8L/3.6L V6 engine (LP1/LY7), under certain driving conditions, and with the vehicle’s original oil change intervals, the timing chain could wear prematurely and cause the illumination of the Service Engine Soon light.

Special Coverage Adjustment
This special coverage covers the condition described above for a period of 10 years or 120,000 miles (193,000 km), whichever occurs first, from the date the vehicle was originally placed in service, regardless of ownership.

Dealers are to replace the timing chain. The repairs will be made at no charge to the customer.

For vehicles covered by Vehicle Service Contracts, all eligible claims with repair orders on or after February 17, 2012, are covered by this special coverage and must be submitted using the labor operation codes provided with this bulletin. Claims with repair orders prior to February 17, 2012, must be submitted to the Service Contract provider.

Vehicles Involved
Involved are certain 2007 model year Cadillac CTS, SRX, STS; GMC Acadia; and Saturn OUTLOOK vehicles equipped with a 2.8L/3.6L V6 engine (LP1/LY7).

Important: Dealers are to confirm vehicle eligibility prior to beginning repairs by using the Applicable Warranties section in the Global Warranty Management System.

Parts Information
Parts required to complete this special coverage are to be obtained from General Motors Customer Care and Aftersales (GMCC&A).
 
Service Procedure
Verify that the timing chain requires replacement. Refer to the appropriate diagnostic information in SI.

•    If the timing chain does NOT require replacement, no further action is required. Inform the customer that any additional diagnosis and repairs are not covered under this special coverage.
•    If the timing chain requires replacement, refer to the appropriate timing chain replacement procedure in SI.
Courtesy Transportation – For US and Canada
The General Motors Courtesy Transportation program is intended to minimize customer inconvenience when a vehicle requires a repair that is covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranties. The availability of courtesy transportation to customers whose vehicles are within the warranty coverage period and involved in a product program is very important in maintaining customer satisfaction. Dealers are to ensure that these customers understand that shuttle service or some other form of courtesy transportation is available and will be provided at no charge. Dealers should refer to the General Motors Service Policies and Procedures Manual for Courtesy Transportation guidelines.

Warranty Transaction Information
Submit a transaction using the table below.


Labor Code 
Description 
Labor Time 
Net Item 
T5853

 

There is also a release on the NHTSA website as well that details the timing chain extended warranty. {PDF Warning}

 

And while the extended warranty only covers the SUVs, owners of Malibus, Camaros, G8s and other older 3.6 powered cars are still reporting the same thing. The most recent LFX doesn't appear to be affected. 

[regfootball]

2/3 is actually more like 66.66%, not 60

[ocnblu]

Drew, are you OK? 

[hyperv6]

Wow!

 

Well regaurdless of the numbers this is not a good thing for a company that has only made 90,000 sedans in how many years. Negitive media hurts more when you low production and only one model. Companies like GM, VW and Toyota can absorb this much easier. Regaurdless of the total people see this on the web and seldom do they dig deep enough to get the full story or facts.

​I was just reading in one of the magazines and they are worried the X model will present a lot of warranty issues Tesla will not be able to absorb. Issues much more than jus the doors. While the platform is much like the S they made changes in the new model that even Toyota would have had trouble putting into production. Many of these things could lead to negitive press and create issue that really are not needed.

 

I think the bigger story here is if Telsla gers a major issue issues how well they deal with it as they really have been given a free pass on some things already and also have not had a lot of cars to deal with yet. As they grow so does the mine field they walk or in this case drive.

 

One thing to consider here is imagine if GM had Volt replacements like this. How would the media treat that one. I suspect it would have been handled much harsher.

[El Kabong]

Drew, are you OK? 

I'm guessing his shenanigans meter is pegged. I'm not without sympathy on that one.

And I'm quite happy to accept that the size of this recall/notice is small. But by the same token it can be argued that this could be a symptom for Tesla as opposed to the actual problem: they're learning as they go along. So, while this (rather large) failure is relatively contained, this is only now showing up on the earliest cars to leave the factory. Can we expect similarly large quality gaffes to manifest themselves as time goes on, and if so, in larger quantity?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building cars is neither easy nor cheap.

[Drew Dowdell]

There is a huge difference between "Needing to be replaced" and "Replaced for customer satisfaction purposes".  This is why I'm bringing up the GM timing chains.

 

You don't work on Electric drivetrains in the same way you work on an engine. Electric drive trains need to go into a clean-room before you start opening them up. They aren't worked on by engine mechanics at $50 an hour, they are worked on by electrical engineers who specialize in this stuff at $200+ an hour.

 

What's happening is that some component in the early models' drive train is failing.... but like the timing chains going bad, this is not a complete drivetrain failure.   Instead of pulling the motor, stripping it down in a clean room and spending upwards of $200 an hour to fix it, they are swapping out the drive train for a newer design. It also gets the car back to the customer in a fraction of the time.  If GM did this, it would be like them swapping in a brand new LFX in place of an LLT.

 

They are doing these swaps for customer satisfaction purposes because the swap can happen in half a day instead of a repair that takes multiple days..... NOT because the drivetrain had catastrophic failure.  For most of them, the car was still completely drive able with nothing more than a slight noise coming from the back. 

 

So the "Require" part of the clickbait headline is wrong in most of these instances.

[Drew Dowdell]

One thing to consider here is imagine if GM had Volt replacements like this. How would the media treat that one. I suspect it would have been handled much harsher.

 

Good lord, do you remember that one Volt that caught fire?  The headlines from that one... yes it caught fire..... after it was test crashed, the batteries left connected, and then parked it for three weeks.... THEN it caught fire.  But there was much hay being made over that one as well. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Let me put it another way:  If, for customer satisfaction reasons, GM started swapping out the entire engine in Lambdas where the Check Engine Light came on warning of timing chain stretching, and all of those instances were counted as a total power train failure in headlines like this instead of what they really are, wouldn't you cry foul?   I think you would.

[hyperv6]

 

One thing to consider here is imagine if GM had Volt replacements like this. How would the media treat that one. I suspect it would have been handled much harsher.

 

Good lord, do you remember that one Volt that caught fire?  The headlines from that one... yes it caught fire..... after it was test crashed, the batteries left connected, and then parked it for three weeks.... THEN it caught fire.  But there was much hay being made over that one as well. 

 

 

Yes but even you have to admit Tesla has been given a pretty good margin of error over the other companies  in the past and present. Not as much fun beating an upstart before the masses as vs. the large cooperate entities.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

One thing to consider here is imagine if GM had Volt replacements like this. How would the media treat that one. I suspect it would have been handled much harsher.

 

Good lord, do you remember that one Volt that caught fire?  The headlines from that one... yes it caught fire..... after it was test crashed, the batteries left connected, and then parked it for three weeks.... THEN it caught fire.  But there was much hay being made over that one as well. 

 

 

Yes but even you have to admit Tesla has been given a pretty good margin of error over the other companies  in the past and present. Not as much fun beating an upstart before the masses as vs. the large cooperate entities.

 

 

I just think fewer people care at this point because so few people actually own a Tesla.

[hyperv6]

Let me put it another way:  If, for customer satisfaction reasons, GM started swapping out the entire engine in Lambdas where the Check Engine Light came on warning of timing chain stretching, and all of those instances were counted as a total power train failure in headlines like this instead of what they really are, wouldn't you cry foul?   I think you would.

 

When  you have built in the tens of thousands vs. millions there are more options for customer satisfaction. Also with only one model you can make a mistake as what you fall back on? Lets face it the X is still on the way and the 3 may be a while off yet. I believe both models will not go as smoothly as the s model.

 

The X models tech features and windshield may go as well as the landing rocket has for Musk. He really needed to keep it simple for his own sake. People would have still bought it.

Tesla could survive easily but the road ahead only gets tougher.

[hyperv6]

 

 

 

One thing to consider here is imagine if GM had Volt replacements like this. How would the media treat that one. I suspect it would have been handled much harsher.

 

Good lord, do you remember that one Volt that caught fire?  The headlines from that one... yes it caught fire..... after it was test crashed, the batteries left connected, and then parked it for three weeks.... THEN it caught fire.  But there was much hay being made over that one as well. 

 

 

Yes but even you have to admit Tesla has been given a pretty good margin of error over the other companies  in the past and present. Not as much fun beating an upstart before the masses as vs. the large cooperate entities.

 

 

I just think fewer people care at this point because so few people actually own a Tesla.

 

 

No the media has been all over Musk like he was the second coming. Problems happen he deflects with transporting people in tubes or with some kind of Rocket test he will point out. He is a master of marketing and many in the media have given freedom to get away with it.

​Some Tesla fans are ok but some have gone to the level akin to a religious experience.

 

Tesla has sold few cars but has many fans. The media could have easily buried them as they have others if they has wanted too. I tend to feel many are addicted to Musks headlines as often it is good click bait.

[El Kabong]

I'm quite aware that it's often more economical to do an electric motor swap than a component replacement. Been there, done that

But again: is this the problem or the symptom? I've heard of issues with door sealing as well, for instance.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm quite aware that it's often more economical to do an electric motor swap than a component replacement. Been there, done that

But again: is this the problem or the symptom? I've heard of issues with door sealing as well, for instance.

 

I dunno man... that sounds like total car failure to me.... better call Consumer Reports.

[FAPTurbo]

Yes but even you have to admit Tesla has been given a pretty good margin of error over the other companies  in the past and present. Not as much fun beating an upstart before the masses as vs. the large cooperate entities.

Or perhaps it's because Tesla makes cars that are cool and desirable, and doesn't hire idiots who publicly call global warming a 'crock of &#036;h&#33;' when launching a vehicle designed to improve GM's green cred. 

 

​Some Tesla fans are ok but some have gone to the level akin to a religious experience.

 

FANBOYS?! ON THE INTERNET?! TELL ME MORE!1!!

[ocnblu]

Yes but don't eat cows.  Or pigs, or chickens.  They poop and produce methane that is the single largest contributor to "global warming" or "climate change" or whatever they're calling it this munt.  Cars are in comparison angels, so yes, from a carmaker's point of view, "global warming" is a crock of shit.

 

Furthermore, "cool and desirable" is a matter of opinion.  And everyone has one.

Edited December 13, 2015 by ocnblu

[Suaviloquent]

Convincing people not to eat meat is the same as for them to give up their cars.

 

Ain't gonna happen unless the economic incentives are savage.

 

I myself use alternative transportation, so I guess I'm carbon neutral, even my implement is 20 years old...???

[ocnblu]

Your "implement"? 

[Suaviloquent]

Your "implement"? 

 

I downgraded from auto to bicycle. I posted a pic of it before. It's a red menace, raging blood lust. Actually it's a 1994 Giant Perigee Custom build with original/stock equivalent drive-train but everything else performance upgraded.

 

Yup, I reduced, reused, recycled and reduced. I made the ultimate beneficial choice in terms of carbon emissions, and that means outlays of funds for maintenance of this lifestyle are few and far between.

[ocnblu]

Care to elaborate, Blackviper8891?

[ocnblu]

 

Your "implement"? 

 

I downgraded from auto to bicycle. I posted a pic of it before. It's a red menace, raging blood lust. Actually it's a 1994 Giant Perigee Custom build with original/stock equivalent drive-train but everything else performance upgraded.

 

Yup, I reduced, reused, recycled and reduced. I made the ultimate beneficial choice in terms of carbon emissions, and that means outlays of funds for maintenance of this lifestyle are few and far between.

 

You need a nice tofu smoothie and a 2016 Camaro SS or Mustang GT to calm your nerves.  Have you been on Santa's lap yet this yerr?

Edited December 14, 2015 by ocnblu

[Suaviloquent]

 

 

Your "implement"? 

 

I downgraded from auto to bicycle. I posted a pic of it before. It's a red menace, raging blood lust. Actually it's a 1994 Giant Perigee Custom build with original/stock equivalent drive-train but everything else performance upgraded.

 

Yup, I reduced, reused, recycled and reduced. I made the ultimate beneficial choice in terms of carbon emissions, and that means outlays of funds for maintenance of this lifestyle are few and far between.

 

You need a nice tofu smoothie and a 2016 Camaro SS or Mustang GT to calm your nerves.  Have you been on Santa's lap yet this yerr?

 

 

Hey meng the money I save goes to Camaro SS and Cadillac CTS-V fund..