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    President Trump Announces EPA Will Reopen Reivew of 2025 Fuel Economy Rules


    • Back to the review desk

    In a not surprising move, President Donald Trump announced today that his administration will reopen a review into the 2025 fuel economy standards set by the EPA before the end of President Barack Obama's term. 

    “We’re going to work on the CAFE standards so you can make cars in America again. There is no more beautiful sight than an American-made car,” said Trump at an event in the former Willow Run bomber factory in Ypsilanti, Michigan - soon to become a testing ground for autonomous vehicles.

    "These standards are costly for automakers and the American people. We will work with our partners at DOT to take a fresh look to determine if this approach is realistic. This thorough review will help ensure that this national program is good for consumers and good for the environment," said EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt.

    In the closing days of President Obama's second term, the EPA announced that it would keep the strict standards that will require automakers to raise their fleetwide fuel economy average to 54.5 mpg by 2025. Automakers cried foul, saying the upcoming standards are costly and out of touch with the current market (i.e. low gas prices and people gobbling up crossovers, pickups, and SUVs). 

    It is expected that the 54.5 mpg average will drop, but no one is sure how much it would drop.

    Reaction to this announcement has been mixed. Automakers and lobby groups approve of this move as it allows them to focus on building vehicles people want, instead of being pushed into building vehicles that will not sell.

    "The Trump Administration has created an opportunity for decision-makers to reach a thoughtful and coordinated outcome predicated on the best and most current data," said Mitch Bainwol, chief executive of the AutoAlliance, an industry lobby group that represents a number of automakers including Ford and GM.

    Other groups are not so pleased with this move.

    "Today's announcement of backtracking on vehicle standards for model years 2022-2025 puts at risk tens of billions of dollars of fuel savings for consumers and big reductions in tailpipe emissions," said Therese Langer, transportation program director for the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy, in a statement.

    "Any delay in settling efficiency standards introduces uncertainty that will disrupt manufacturers' product planning. What is certain is that technological stagnation is not a recipe for continuing the remarkable success our domestic manufacturers have achieved in recent years."

    Democratic U.S. Senator Edward Markey of Massachusetts tells Reuters this move could actually hurt consumers.

    "Filling up their cars and trucks is the energy bill Americans pay most often, but President Trump's roll-back of fuel economy emissions standards means families will end up paying more at the pump," said Markey

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required), Reuters, Roadshow

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    FINALLY.  This needs to happen quickly so the car companies know what to plan for and spend on.  This will be a boon to the auto companies and consumers who are being autonomously steered toward something they do not want... simply put.

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    What consumers don't want better fuel economy?  Even truck buyers want to squeeze an extra mpg out of their vehicles when they can.

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    Well... what is the take rate for Ecodiesel v. hemi?  There is a tipping point I would say.  Ram is the easiest example.

     

    -1

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    6 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    Well... what is the take rate for Ecodiesel v. hemi?  There is a tipping point I would say.  Ram is the easiest example.

     

    That's because the expdeisel costs more to buy but maybe I'm just using common sense math here lol. 

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    8 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    Well... what is the take rate for Ecodiesel v. hemi?  There is a tipping point I would say.  Ram is the easiest example.

     

    EcoDiesel is currently not for sale, when sold is sold in limited quantities, and is never offered at discount or special pricing like the hemi is. GM is selling every diesel Canyonado they can build, even at the substantial price increase over the V6.

     

    How about another comparison.... 2.7 EB or 3.5 EB verse 5.0 in an F150? Ford is selling the crap out of the Ecoboost trucks with the promise of better fuel economy (even if I personally find the validity of the claim to be dubious)

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    19 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    What consumers don't want better fuel economy?  Even truck buyers want to squeeze an extra mpg out of their vehicles when they can.

    Consumers want to flap their arms and fly too but that is not going to happen. 

    Here is the deal. Yes everyone wants more MPG but the reality of technology and physic are creating cars people really don't want or like. 

    The demise of the large RWD sedan just increased sales of large trucks and suv models.  If asked or given the choice of more MPG in a Smart car or a vehicle like a truck most buyers would chose the truck or suv. 

    Automaker are just to the point where they are struggling to sell cars and larger CUV and Suv models are ruling. Many people want power but you have to temper it with for MPG. They want MPG but to make it lighter cost more money. 

    The bottom line is there is no silver bullet here. Electric is still a life style changer or many  to drive and also an even higher priced option. 

    This is a situation that needs to be reviewed every year and engineers not politicians need to access just what the market can or can not do. Also some marketing people need to be involved to gauge what people will put up with. 

    I do not know anyone who wants dirty air or lower MPG but just how much are they willing to pay and just how much are they willing to give up in vehicle size. 

    This needs to be balanced and accessed each year to gain the most MPG we can but not at a risk of jobs and or economic damage to the automakers. Too often the laws like from the last administration had little to no consideration for the Automaker health. They hate Co operations and if they die they are happy. What they forget are the millions that work for them or depend on them to make a living and feed their families. 

    This is something both sides need to work on together and not get any far out wacko ideas. Keep it real and advance it yearly but realistically. 

    54 MPG just was not obtainable unless more advances are made to make electric cars cheaper and faster to charge. We will get there but there is still so much work to do. 

     

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    The crossover replaced the uncool wagon and minivan... That's all.   People want the ability to haul all the their crap. In 1977, you got a Colony Park. In 1987, you got a Mercury Sable Wagon while the Missus got a Town and Country. In 1997, you got a Mercury Mountaineer and the Mrs got an Windstar. In 2007, you're in a pair of Explorers. In 2017, you're in a crossover explorer and she in an edge.

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    I can see this getting pushed out but many states have adopted CA carb standard and that will continue to force the auto companies to build auto's with better MPG.

    Trump needs to put his own cash where his idiot mouth is. Talks about American Auto's and yet drives a Rolls.

    TrumpAuto.jpg

    I only own American and I support everywhere I can American business first and then move outside the company for items that are not built here.

    If you care about making sure your neighbor has a job by buying American made products first, we would be better off.

    Trump and his SPAWN buy foreign, make the crap they pirate from others in China and try to preach his America Great again.

    Double Standard Idiot!!!

    Back up your words with proof and put your cash into manufacturing and business here rather than say one thing and do another.

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    9 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    I can see this getting pushed out but many states have adopted CA carb standard and that will continue to force the auto companies to build auto's with better MPG.

    Trump needs to put his own cash where his idiot mouth is. Talks about American Auto's and yet drives a Rolls.

    TrumpAuto.jpg

    I only own American and I support everywhere I can American business first and then move outside the company for items that are not built here.

    If you care about making sure your neighbor has a job by buying American made products first, we would be better off.

    Trump and his SPAWN buy foreign, make the crap they pirate from others in China and try to preach his America Great again.

    Double Standard Idiot!!!

    Back up your words with proof and put your cash into manufacturing and business here rather than say one thing and do another.

    What else do you expect from the hypocrite in charge. Do as he says, not how he does. BUY MURICAN!

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    About President Trump driving a Rolls-Royce, what do you expect from a billionaire?  People like him are their primary target market.

    As for wanting to reduce the mileage standards, I will believe it when an actual BILL is passed and Trump signs it.  CAFE was a bad idea in 1975 and it is a bad idea now.  If Trump and the GOP were smart, they would simply abolish CAFE for good.

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    Would be cool to see vehicles imported from California hit with a yuge tariff some day.  I am so done with them.

    6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    EcoDiesel is currently not for sale, when sold is sold in limited quantities, and is never offered at discount or special pricing like the hemi is. GM is selling every diesel Canyonado they can build, even at the substantial price increase over the V6.

     

    How about another comparison.... 2.7 EB or 3.5 EB verse 5.0 in an F150? Ford is selling the crap out of the Ecoboost trucks with the promise of better fuel economy (even if I personally find the validity of the claim to be dubious)

    Lately I've made it a point to look for Ford trucks WITHOUT an Ecoboost badge.  Those are guys I would more likely befriend than those nincompoops with their Rube Goldberg turbo sixes.

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    4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    Would be cool to see vehicles imported from California hit with a yuge tariff some day.  I am so done with them.

    Lately I've made it a point to look for Ford trucks WITHOUT an Ecoboost badge.  Those are guys I would more likely befriend than those nincompoops with their Rube Goldberg turbo sixes.

    I also prefer the V8 myself and am still not a fan of the EB 3.5 after a 1000 mile trip in an Expedition EL last week.... however, the point was that people still want better fuel economy even from their trucks and are willing to take a swing with new technology to get it. 

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    @ocnblu How about rather than being a negative number troll, if you are gonna give a guy a negative down vote for what they post also post a counter argument for why you disagree. 

    If not then you are doing what many here do not like and that is trolling just to troll.

    I know you are better than that Mr. Blu and I look forward to your counterpoint to my post.

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    5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    @ocnblu How about rather than being a negative number troll, if you are gonna give a guy a negative down vote for what they post also post a counter argument for why you disagree. 

    If not then you are doing what many here do not like and that is trolling just to troll.

    I know you are better than that Mr. Blu and I look forward to your counterpoint to my post.

    It is pretty petty but some people hate facts. My question would be how the hell is he able to give two negative votes at once where everyone else gets one every 24 hours? 

    Edited by surreal1272
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    1 minute ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    That's why they have their "alternative facts".

    LOL! Very true, or alternate truth if you will!

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    Quote

     

    Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."

    "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.

    "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."

    "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."

    — Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills, with other events worthy of happy record.

     

     
     
    Trump is tilting at windmills. Just because the EPA standards are relaxed doesn't mean automakers can start putting V8s in everything again.  They still have to build vehicles for a global market. Manufacturers would rather not build multiple variations of the same car. The engines in the meat of the market are going to be the same.  So the same 4-cylinder that powers an ATS in the US is going to power an ATS in Europe and an ATS in China. 
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    And while ocnblu wants to poopoo the Trump stance, he should understand that this whole deal reeks of cronimism and corporate back scratching (on top of the hypocrisy), courtesy of having a man in charge of the EPA who was in the middle of suing said department prior to his appointment and having an OIL TYCOON as our Secretary of State to help broker these new deals. If you don't see the obvious problem there, then there is no helping you.

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    I agree that cronyism and hypocrisy is strong in this administration.  That is why Trump's stance seems so weird.  Automation will eventually end employment in building cars one day. 

    What Trump NEEDS to do is get Congress to do its job and dump CAFE entirely.  Yes, 4cyl and 6cyl will be the rule because of China and Europe.  Also CARB (which is tougher and worse than CAFE) still exists but California has two good reasons for that: Los Angeles SMOG (which is what inspired CARB in the first place) and high gas prices.  Admittedly, the smog problem is not as severe as it was during the 1970s but I doubt anyone wants to go back to multiple smog advisories throughout the year.  CA gas prices are also much higher than most of the continental United States, despite the fact that a lot of oil is pumped out of CA (not like Texas, but still) mostly because of higher gas taxes.

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    I really thought that the politics were to stay in that forum. While I understand overlap in auto's and government this thread is rife with it. Let's think of a balanced approach to our thoughts maybe in the model of riviera74 I understand his politics and I see some points that I can agree with instead of just muck raking. I've been around for quite a while seen em come and go miss quite a few but never those flamers. I often wonder how many left so as not to get worked up instead of reading auto news and learning from your friends, and most here I have grown to think of as a friend. I miss the soapbox and 2 cent emojis, too lazy to go to the puter. ;-)

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    I don't see much change at all coming to the standards.  Consumers still want better fuel economy.  And large cars don't sell, even midsize cars like Camry and Accord are getting replaced by RAV4's and CRV's that get about the same mileage.  So as people tend to downsize, it helps get the average up.

    The other thing to consider is not just CA CARB, but China.  China has displacement taxes and are putting in tougher emissions regulations and all these car makers are global.  GM or Ford or Toyota isn't going to make an engine for the USA, an engine for Europe and an engine for China.  It is cheaper to just make the same 1.5 liter turbo 4 that sips gas and meets emission requirements in all 3 markets.

    And lastly when you get more electrification in, then fuel economy soars.  Look at a 90s cell phone battery compared to now.  In 20 years (granted well past 2025) a car like a Tesla Model S might go 800 miles on a single charge and cost $50,000.  Just think of this, in 2005 YouTube and smart phones didn't exist.  In another 10 years time, there may be electrified cars that we can't even think of now.

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    22 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    FINALLY.  This needs to happen quickly so the car companies know what to plan for and spend on.  This will be a boon to the auto companies and consumers who are being autonomously steered toward something they do not want... simply put.

    right, and then something better than a no power 1500 cc engine that requires reprogramming so it doesn't implode, and ends up losing 15% of its advertised mpg. (refer to me for more)

    21 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

    Consumers want to flap their arms and fly too but that is not going to happen. 

    Here is the deal. Yes everyone wants more MPG but the reality of technology and physic are creating cars people really don't want or like. 

    The demise of the large RWD sedan just increased sales of large trucks and suv models.  If asked or given the choice of more MPG in a Smart car or a vehicle like a truck most buyers would chose the truck or suv. 

    Automaker are just to the point where they are struggling to sell cars and larger CUV and Suv models are ruling. Many people want power but you have to temper it with for MPG. They want MPG but to make it lighter cost more money. 

    The bottom line is there is no silver bullet here. Electric is still a life style changer or many  to drive and also an even higher priced option. 

    This is a situation that needs to be reviewed every year and engineers not politicians need to access just what the market can or can not do. Also some marketing people need to be involved to gauge what people will put up with. 

    I do not know anyone who wants dirty air or lower MPG but just how much are they willing to pay and just how much are they willing to give up in vehicle size. 

    This needs to be balanced and accessed each year to gain the most MPG we can but not at a risk of jobs and or economic damage to the automakers. Too often the laws like from the last administration had little to no consideration for the Automaker health. They hate Co operations and if they die they are happy. What they forget are the millions that work for them or depend on them to make a living and feed their families. 

    This is something both sides need to work on together and not get any far out wacko ideas. Keep it real and advance it yearly but realistically. 

    54 MPG just was not obtainable unless more advances are made to make electric cars cheaper and faster to charge. We will get there but there is still so much work to do. 

     

    every day now wishing i would have went for power and not mpg.  there is a middle ground, time to start bringing the optionla higher power motors back and charing less for their options.

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    There is too much latitude given to leftists on this site who want to spout their bs... any possible chance to inject their warped politics into a thread, and it is left unchecked.  Not what I signed up for fifteen or so years ago when I first started posting here.  I am answering a-hole posts with a-hole posts.

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    25 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    There is too much latitude given to leftists on this site who want to spout their bs... any possible chance to inject their warped politics into a thread, and it is left unchecked.  Not what I signed up for fifteen or so years ago when I first started posting here.  I am answering a-hole posts with a-hole posts.

    Some people would say the feeling is mutual. I wouldn't know though because I'm not a leftist. 

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    29 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    There is too much latitude given to leftists on this site who want to spout their bs... any possible chance to inject their warped politics into a thread, and it is left unchecked.  Not what I signed up for fifteen or so years ago when I first started posting here.  I am answering a-hole posts with a-hole posts.

    There is nothing left or right about pointing out the hypocrisy of a man who tells people to "Buy American" but doesn't buy American himself.  It's not even political.  Romney told people to buy American and he would roll around in Yukon Denalis and DTSes....  McCain had a CTS.... Obama had a 300 and an Escape Hybrid prior to becoming President.  Four Presidential candidates there, across the political spectrum... only one can be called a hypocrite about his automotive purchases against the backdrop of his rhetoric. 

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      Engine: 3.5L SOHC 24-valve i-VTEC V6
      Driveline: Six-Speed Automatic, All-Wheel Drive
      Horsepower @ RPM: 280 @ 6,000
      Torque @ RPM: 262 @ 4700
      Fuel Economy: City/Highway/Combined - 18/25/21
      Curb Weight: 4,515 lbs
      Location of Manufacture: Lincoln, Alabama
      Base Price: $41,370
      As Tested Price: $42,270 (Includes $900.00 Destination Charge)
      Options: N/A

      View full article
    • By William Maley
      Is the Honda Ridgeline a truck or not? Depends on to whom you ask this question. A truck person would say no since the Ridgeline isn’t a body-on-frame vehicle. Instead, it uses a unibody platform from the Honda Pilot. A consumer would say yes because it looks like a truck and has all the attributes you would find on one such as a bed. I spent some time in a Ridgeline over the holidays to see if I could figure out the answer.
      The previous Ridgeline looked like an auto show concept squared-off shape and missing the design cues you would expect on a truck such as a gap between the cab and bed. This put a lot of people off from looking at the Ridgeline. The new model looks more in line with the current crop of midsize trucks as Honda adopted the standard cab and bed design. This includes the gap between the bed and cab, although this is more of a design touch. Stick your hand in the gap and you’ll realize that both parts are connected (thanks unibody construction).
      The front end is where you’ll make your decision as to whether you like the Ridgeline or not. There is an imposing grille with a long chrome bar on top. A set of large headlights sits on either side of the grille. Other design items to take note of are the sculpted hood and front bumper. Personally, I found the front end to a bit over the top. Honda was trying to make the Ridgeline look tough and imposing, but the end result is a look that is trying too hard. 
      At least Honda got the Ridgeline’s bed right. Compared to the last model, Honda added four inches to the overall length of the bed (64 vs. 60 inches). This gives the Ridgeline the longest standard bed in the class. Unlike competitors, you cannot option a longer bed for the Ridgeline. Honda has also fitted some clever ideas for the Ridgeline’s bed. First is the in-bed trunk that offers 7.3 cubic feet of space where you can stow tools or luggage, giving the Ridgeline a significant edge in practicality than its competitors. Second is the dual-action tailgate which allows the tailgate to be opened downward or to the side.
      The recent crop of trucks have been stepping up their game when it comes to interiors and the Ridgeline is no different. The interior is borrowed from the Pilot crossover and brings forth an easy-to-understand control layout and high-quality materials. One item that wasn’t carried over from the Pilot was the push-button transmission selector. Instead, the Ridgeline sticks with a good-ole lever. Thank you, Honda.
      The Ridgeline proved to be a very comfortable pickup truck thanks to supportive leather seats, and power-adjustments for the driver. I took this truck to Northern Michigan and back during the holidays, and I never felt tired or had any soreness afterward. The back seat provides more than enough head and legroom for passengers. The bottom cushion of the back seat can also be folded up to provide a decent amount space for carrying larger items.
      Honda’s infotainment system in the Ridgeline has to be one of the most frustrating systems we have ever come across. The eight-inch system gets off on the wrong foot by using touch-sensitive controls for the volume and other functions that don’t always respond whenever pressed. At least you can use the steering wheel controls for a number of these functions. HondaLink needs a serious revamp in terms of its interface as trying to do simple things is very convoluted. For example, if I want to pick a podcast episode from my iPod, I have to jump through a number of menus to just to get to the listing of the specific show I want to listen to. You can avoid using HondaLink by plugging in your iPhone or Android phone and using CarPlay or Android Auto. 
      All Honda Ridgeline’s come with a 3.5L V6 producing 280 horsepower and 262 pound-feet of torque. This is paired up with a six-speed automatic. The base RT to the RTL-T has the choice of front or all-wheel drive. The RTL-E and Black Edition only come with all-wheel drive. No other V6 truck in the class can match the performance of the Ridgeline’s V6. Acceleration is strong whether you’re leaving a stoplight or making a pass. The run to 60 mph is said to take around 7 seconds, making this one quick midsize truck. The six-speed automatic delivers fast and smooth shifts.
      All-wheel drive Ridgelines like our tester come with Honda’s Intelligent Variable Torque Management system. This system quickly redistributes the amount of torque going to each wheel to improve handling and traction. AWD models also get the Intelligent Traction Management system which adjusts the settings of the powertrain to help you get through whatever terrain you find yourself in. We put these systems to the test by driving through an unplowed road with deep snow. The Ridgeline was able to make it through without breaking a sweat. That doesn’t make the Ridgeline a truck you want to take on an off-road trail as it only offers 7.9-inches of ground clearance and no low-range.
      The Ridgeline’s payload is towards the top the of class when compared with other midsize crew cab trucks. Front-wheel drive models can haul between 1,447 to 1,565 pounds in the bed. All-wheel drive models have a payload capacity of 1,499 to 1,584 pounds. For towing, the Ridgeline falls a bit short. Front-wheel drive models have a max tow rating of 3,500 lbs, while AWD models are slightly higher at 5,000 lbs. For most people, the Ridgeline will be enough to handle various towing needs. If you need a bit more, then the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon are ready to help.
      The EPA rates the Ridgeline AWD at 18 City/25 Highway/21 Combined. My average for the week landed at 23.6 mpg in a 60/40 mix of highway and city driving.
      Previously, we’ve considered GM’s midsize trucks as having the best ride in the class. The Honda Ridgeline now holds that honor. The unibody platform and four-wheel independent suspension setup give the Ridgeline a ride that is almost equal to a passenger sedan. Bumps and other imperfections are smoothed out. The Ridgeline is a decent handling truck as well. There isn’t much body roll and it feels stable when going into a corner. We do wish Honda would make the steering slightly heavier for the Ridgeline.
      The Honda Ridgeline may not meet the true definition of a pickup truck, but it is one in spirit. Yes, the unibody architecture does limit the capabilities of the Ridgeline as it cannot haul or tow heavy items. Nor can it go deep into the wilderness due to decisions made by Honda on the Ridgeline’s off-road capability. But it is in other areas that the Ridgeline begins to stand out such as the clever ideas in the bed, comfortable interior, and a ride that is more in tune with a regular car. They might not be the advantages you would expect in a truck, but they are something that Honda believes will bring in those interested in a pickup minus a lot of the issues that other models have. 
      To put it another way, the Honda Ridgeline is like Festivus from Seinfeld; they’re both for the rest of us.
      Disclaimer: Honda Provided the Ridgeline, Insurance, and One Tank of Gas
      Year: 2017
      Make: Honda
      Model: Ridgeline
      Trim: RTL-E
      Engine: 3.5L SOHC 24-valve i-VTEC V6
      Driveline: Six-Speed Automatic, All-Wheel Drive
      Horsepower @ RPM: 280 @ 6,000
      Torque @ RPM: 262 @ 4700
      Fuel Economy: City/Highway/Combined - 18/25/21
      Curb Weight: 4,515 lbs
      Location of Manufacture: Lincoln, Alabama
      Base Price: $41,370
      As Tested Price: $42,270 (Includes $900.00 Destination Charge)
      Options: N/A
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