What's next for Caddy??

[jrockb4]

No one is prouder of the turn around that Cadillac has made than I am. Hell I even drive an Allante But what I want to know is, what is next for Cadillac after the Escalade redo this year? Is it a new CTS? SRX? New models? What? I do not want Caddy to fall into neglect, while GM is trying to right the rest of the ship. I figure they are good for the next year to 18 months, but after that they will need to keep the block busters coming. The SRX (Which I also own) is beginning to fall behind, the CTS line was never expanded and the Northstar needs to continue to be improved.

[Cadillacfan]

If I'm not mistaken, the SRX will get an interior upgrade soon and possibly an exterior freshening though I'm not entirely sure about the second part. Then the CTS will be revamped both inside and out making it more competitive with the 3 series and G35. I think we can expect a coupe and convertable with it too.

Then of course, the upcoming BRX compact crossover (based from a more expensive version of the Theta platform) which will be aimed directly at BMW's X3, and the future compact luxury utes from Infiniti, Acura, and Mercedes.

The DTS will be replaced with a large RWD vehicle but when and what it might look like are not known yet to most of us.

It may not be too busy right now for Cadillac, but by the end of the decade it will be.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Cadillacfan

[zoomtm]

No one is prouder of the turn around that Cadillac has made than I am.  Hell I even drive an Allante  But what I want to know is, what is next for Cadillac after the Escalade redo this year?  Is it a new CTS?  SRX?  New models?  What?  I do not want Caddy to fall into neglect, while GM is trying to right the rest of the ship.  I figure they are good for the next year to 18 months, but after that they will need to keep the block busters coming.  The SRX (Which I also own) is beginning to fall behind, the CTS line was never expanded and the Northstar needs to continue to be improved.

Cadillac getting neglected...isnt that what GM did to olds-buick-pontiac for the past 10 years or so....its time for other brands besides Cadillac to get some love now...

Edited January 10, 2006 by zoomtm

[loki]

engines.....prolly engines and slight freshening of the cts

[VenSeattle]

If I recall correctly, CTS will be replaced in 2007 as a 2008 model. The compact Cadillac BRX cuv should be here in 2008 or so. The SRX refresh was postponed but could have been cancelled entirely since the 2nd gen will be out before decade end. No news on the ULS, but if the GMTs are a hit, I'm sure we'll hear or see something about the ULS before decade end.

Also, the Europe only BLS will have a short run with the next gen BLS expected to be sold in the US, Europe, and (more than likely) Asia.

No neglect here.

[SoCalCTS]

If I recall correctly, CTS will be replaced in 2007 as a 2008 model. The compact Cadillac BRX cuv should be here in 2008 or so.

No neglect here.

Well if the CTS will be replaced in 2007, when will we see it?

[97regalGS]

Well if the CTS will be replaced in 2007, when will we see it?

i'd guess NAIAS 2007 - but I'd be surprised if they can keep it under wraps that long.

[Sixty8panther]

I hope THIS is the next thign for caddy!

[97regalGS]

I hope THIS is the next thign for caddy!

sorry. you're going to have to wait a while longer.

you'll be driving your new 2009 Camaro before then.

[Sixty8panther]

I dont' care if ti has to be postponed untill 2011.... if Cadillac does not make this car however... (with a V16) then they're loosing out bigtime.

This is the ultimate image car. I can not think of a better concept car to ever be released by a luxury car manufacturer. It's bold, in your face, extreeme to the point of ridicilous and says F-U to political correctness.

A Cadillac Viper if you will. If produced this would be the greatest flagship in the world. Maybachs would be humbled, Bentleys would be ridiculed and the Quadroporte would look like a non-SC Park Ave in comparison.

[zoomtm]

i always thought it looked ugly

[97regalGS]

i always thought it looked ugly

i think you're in the minority on that one.

i also agree with much of sixty8. unfortunately, economics gets in the way.

[Drew Dowdell]

Sing it with me kids!

Kappa Caddy!!

Kappa Caddy!!

Kappa Caddy!!

Kappa Caddy!!

[pow]

I think the next CTS is crucial for Cadillac, followed by an STS update and a $70K big sedan. A Kappa CLR would be excellent, particularly with a folding metal or glass roof.

[97regalGS]

I think the next CTS is crucial for Cadillac, followed by an STS update and a $70K big sedan. A Kappa CLR would be excellent, particularly with a folding metal or glass roof.

Kappa caddy would be cool, but what does the business case look like? I'd say Cadillac has bigger issues than adding niche vehicles to the mix right now. Hence the focus will be on addressing obvious short comings in the core vehicles (interiors) and adding vehicles to that mix that sell in volume (BRX). STS also need a kick in the pants. It's selling 2/3 as many as 5 and E. And SRX needs some help too.

[Drew Dowdell]

Kappa caddy would be cool, but what does the business case look like? I'd say Cadillac has bigger issues than adding niche vehicles to the mix right now.  Hence the focus will be on addressing obvious short comings in the core vehicles (interiors) and adding vehicles to that mix that sell in volume (BRX).  STS also need a kick in the pants. It's selling 2/3 as many as 5 and E.  And SRX needs some help too.

I got your business case right here:

[evok]

I got your business case right here:

Your business case is seriously flawed. Why because Cadillac could never command the GLOBAL volumes those vehicles above sell. ie MB sell app. 10k SLKs in the US and sells app. 10-15k more throughout the rest of the world. Cadillac does not have that luxury because Cadillac is not a GLOBAL luxury brand and sell app. 95% of their vehicles in the US.

[CSpec]

Then the CTS will be revamped both inside and out making it more competitive with the 3 series and G35. I think we can expect a coupe and convertable with it too.

Don't get your hopes up for that; Sigma wasn't designed for convertibles. However, the BLS will get a convertible version and could be sold here (see below).

The DTS will be replaced with a large RWD vehicle but when and what it might look like are not known yet to most of us.

This is still very much up in the air. It's not going to be on a new FWD platform, but they are studying if they could get away with dropping it.

The SRX refresh was postponed but could have been cancelled entirely since the 2nd gen will be out before decade end.

The next SRX is still up in the air as well because of its dismal sales and the low profit platform. It was delayed because they needed to figure out how to lower costs; it could either share a lot with the STS, or it could even be built on Zeta.

Also, the Europe only BLS will have a short run with the next gen BLS expected to be sold in the US, Europe, and (more than likely) Asia.

Because the next CTS will be bigger and more expensive, the next-gen BLS will most likely be sold here, with full time AWD with more than 50% of the torque going to the rear wheels. The average transaction price of the CTS will go from about $33k to $37k.

The next XLR is also coming in 2010, so Cadillac will have quite a lineup then.

[Drew Dowdell]

Your business case is seriously flawed.  Why because Cadillac could never command the GLOBAL volumes those vehicles above sell.  ie MB sell app. 10k SLKs in the US and sells app. 10-15k more throughout the rest of the world.  Cadillac does not have that luxury because Cadillac is not a GLOBAL luxury brand and sell app. 95% of their vehicles in the US.

Cadillac doesn't NEED to sell 20k-25k Kappa's. That's what the Sky, Solstice, Opel Speedster, and whatever Kappa Chevy are for. What is the point of platform sharing otherwise?

They are forcasting ~30k Solstices, ~25k Skys. How many Opels? Maybe 10k on the very conservative side.

Right there is 65k units. It is likely that Cadillac could sell another 8k-10k of a Mini-XLR based on Kappa.

[97regalGS]

i'd suggest maybe gen2 kappa for caddy

too may other priorities for cadillac and GM

[SoCalCTS]

Cadillac needs a sporty car other than the XLR. They need one around the $45k mark and kappa would fit the bill. It does NOT have to be a convertible. This should be codeveloped with the Saab Kappa sports car just like the BLS and 9-3.

[Cadillacfan]

I think Cadillac needs another roadster like it needs a FWD vehicle. Roadsters are not what Caddy needs right now. Currently, the only brand that has two is Mercedes and that's it. BMW has the Z4, Lexus has the SC, and Infiniti has 0 roadsters and that brand is considered to be more of a BMW competitor then Caddy is.. which is sad considering that they only have 4 models that were made to compete (not including the Q45 or that badly built SUV that's just a rebadged titan) compared to Cadillac's 7 models (not including it's 3 V-series vehicles)

The sedans need to be continously improved in order to stay with the competition.

Work on the core models first and worry about the low volume cars last.

[evok]

Cadillac doesn't NEED to sell 20k-25k Kappa's. That's what the Sky, Solstice, Opel Speedster, and whatever Kappa Chevy are for. What is the point of platform sharing otherwise?

They are forcasting ~30k Solstices, ~25k Skys. How many Opels? Maybe 10k on the very conservative side.

Right there is 65k units. It is likely that Cadillac could sell another 8k-10k of a Mini-XLR based on Kappa.

First, the let us talk this time next year about the sales of the Solstice. Though current sales rates are too early to guage long term success, they are only selling app. 2,000/month for an annual sales total if maintainable of 24,000/year. When the novelty wears off my projections are in the conservative area of 15k-18k. Particularly, when the Sky arrives, which will be a lot lower in volume will eat at the Solstice volume. So, what the plant can build and real world sales for the 2 current kappas is two different things. Let me put this into perspective, Mazda only sells 10,000 MX5 Miatas a year. It is not a big market.

Now lets talk about the Sky. There is only 1 reason why the Sky is sold in NA and that is because it will be sold as an Opel, thus app. doubling the volume.

Cadillac does not have that luxury or global brand reach to meet the sales need to justify the program like MB, BMW, and the other global lux manufacturers have. Your estimate of a kappa Caddy are on the high side for NA. In order for the program to be viable, they would have to sell double that to be cost effective. 15k give or take.

Than there are issues with Kappa. It is unkown if kappa could support a V6 and package a retractible hard top. And if it can it would require significant development which add cost to the program.

Edited January 11, 2006 by evok

[Newbiewar]

Cadillac needs a sporty car other than the XLR. They need one around the $45k mark and kappa would fit the bill. It does NOT have to be a convertible. This should be codeveloped with the Saab Kappa sports car just like the BLS and 9-3.

Cadillac is cadillac because it doesnt need a poormans cadillac...

unlike MB and BMW...

Cadillac has pontiac to put sporty stuff into... if you want cheap... Cadillac is not the brand...

I really hope GM doesnt watter down Cadillac and throw in CLK's and what not...

[SoCalCTS]

Cadillac is cadillac because it doesnt need a poormans cadillac...

unlike MB and BMW...

Cadillac has pontiac to put sporty stuff into... if you want cheap... Cadillac is not the brand...

I really hope GM doesnt watter down Cadillac and throw in CLK's and what not...

So you are saying that Cadillac should ditch CTS, STS, SRX, BLS and DTS?????

CTS starts at $29,990; STS at $41,740; SRX at $36,990; DTS $41,990

So a Cadillac Kappa coupe (NOT CONVERTIBLE) priced around $45K would be a "poor man's Cadillac"? Its obviously, been awile since you ventured into a Cadillac dealership.

There needs to be another sporty coupe other than the $78,295 XLR.

[Imaj]

The N* need more power and torque to compete with the new 4.6 V8 from Lexus and other V8s the competition have.. They should offer a V12 for the highend Cadillacs..

[Robert Hall]

So you are saying that Cadillac should ditch CTS, STS, SRX, BLS and DTS?????

CTS starts at $29,990; STS at $41,740; SRX at $36,990; DTS $41,990

So a Cadillac Kappa coupe (NOT CONVERTIBLE)  priced around $45K would be a "poor man's Cadillac"? Its obviously, been awile since you ventured into a Cadillac dealership.

There needs to be another sporty coupe other than the $78,295 XLR.

Cadillac needs a 4-seat coupe/convertible to compete with the 3-series and CLK. A compact sport sedan to compete with the 3-series, C-class, IS, etc is needed also (the CTS is too big).

[SoCalCTS]

Cadillac needs a 4-seat coupe/convertible to compete with the 3-series and CLK. A compact sport sedan to compete with the 3-series, C-class, IS, etc is needed also (the CTS is too big).

Can they stretch Kappa like the Holden concept we saw last year?

except do a 2 door 2+2 coupe?

[97regalGS]

First, the let us talk this time next year about the sales of the Solstice.  Though current sales rates are too early to guage long term success, they are only selling app. 2,000/month for an annual sales total if maintainable of 24,000/year.  When the novelty wears off my projections are in the conservative area of 15k-18k.  Particularly, when the Sky arrives, which will be a lot lower in volume will eat at the Solstice volume.  So, what the plant can build and real world sales for the 2 current kappas is two different things.  Let me put this into perspective, Mazda only sells 10,000 MX5 Miatas a year.  It is not a big market.

Now lets talk about the Sky.  There is only 1 reason why the Sky is sold in NA and that is because it will be sold as an Opel, thus app. doubling the volume. 

Cadillac does not have that luxury or global brand reach to meet the sales need to justify the program like MB, BMW, and the other global lux manufacturers have.  Your estimate of a kappa Caddy are on the high side for NA.  In order for the program to be viable, they would have to sell double that to be cost effective. 15k give or take.

Than there are issues with Kappa.  It is unkown if kappa could support a V6 and package a retractible hard top.  And if it can it would require significant development which add cost to the program.

why do you always have to rain on everyone else's parade with facts and good business sense. B) B)

[97regalGS]

Cadillac needs a 4-seat coupe/convertible to compete with the 3-series and CLK. A compact sport sedan to compete with the 3-series, C-class, IS, etc is needed also (the CTS is too big).

so you're saying the BLS should come to the USA and also be available in a coupe as well??

cause if you're NOT saying that, then I'm not sure what platform said vehicles would be build from.

[91z4me]

Cadillac needs a 4-seat coupe/convertible to compete with the 3-series and CLK. A compact sport sedan to compete with the 3-series, C-class, IS, etc is needed also (the CTS is too big).

The current CTS is to big. Who knows how big the next CTS is liable to be!

Can they stretch Kappa like the Holden concept we saw last year?

user posted image

except do a 2 door 2+2 coupe?

Short answer NO.

Long answer: The Torana was NOT Kappa. It used Kappa's SLA front suspension and CTS based IRS but that was it. Notice in the interior pictures of the Torana during construction there is not a rear bulkhead. That is pretty important in Kappa's structure. Also I don't think Holden even used the hydroformed frame rails, THE key component of Kappa. Torana was simply Holden showing off a preview of what VE would look like in a smaller form using some parts GMNA had developed for a small 2 seat vert.

[balthazar]

>>"The current CTS is to big. "<<

Here we go again. Cite a fact that proves this is true. And no; simple overall lengths of the class don't prove anything.

[Robert Hall]

>>"The current CTS is to big. "<<

Here we go again. Cite a fact that proves this is true. And no; simple overall lengths of the class don't prove anything.

I didn't say anything about overall lengths...

Shorter, narrower & lighter works best for a compact sports sedan..that is one of the reasons the BMW 3-series is so good at what it does. A smaller car is more nimble on narrow, windy, twisty backroads (where cars in the sports sedan category really excel, not on the interstate)...

Not that there is anything wrong with the big Caddys--I think they need a model bigger than the STS to compete with the 7-series, S-class, etc. There is room for a compact Caddy sports sedan & coupe as well as the luxo boats...

Edited January 12, 2006 by moltar

[Robert Hall]

so you're saying the BLS should come to the USA and also be available in a coupe as well?? 

cause if you're NOT saying that, then I'm not sure what platform said vehicles would be build from.

The problem with the BLS is it's not a RWD platform... for a serious C-class, 3-series, etc competitor, Cadillac needs a compact RWD model, IMHO....

Edited January 12, 2006 by moltar

[97regalGS]

The problem with the BLS is it's not a  RWD platform... for a serious C-class, 3-series, etc competitor, Cadillac needs a compact RWD model, IMHO....

what platform would said model be built from?

seems to me that only short term possiblity is Ep2 with AWD.

[Drew Dowdell]

I didn't say anything about overall lengths...

Shorter, narrower & lighter works best for a compact sports sedan..that is one of the reasons the BMW 3-series is so good at what it does. A smaller car is more nimble on  narrow, windy, twisty backroads (where cars in the sports sedan category really excel, not on the interstate)...

Not that there is anything wrong with the big Caddys--I think they need a model bigger than the STS to compete with the 7-series, S-class, etc. There is room for a compact Caddy sports sedan & coupe as well as the luxo boats...

Good thing the CTS is a MID-SIZED sport sedan then. The CTS matches the 5-series in nearly EVERY dimension, performes the same or better, and beats it on price. The CTS competes with the 5-series and E-class. The only way the CTS competes with the 3-series is if someone decides the 3-series is too small for them. Not everyone wants something the size of a CIVIC ya know.

All that said....There should be a smaller Caddy slotted under the CTS and the CTS should move up market. The visuals I've seen seem to indicat the CTS will do just that.

What do you do with the STS though? Dunno, probably grow it to 7-series size and drop the DTS.

[Drew Dowdell]

The problem with the BLS is it's not a  RWD platform... for a serious C-class, 3-series, etc competitor, Cadillac needs a compact RWD model, IMHO....

Audi A4

[PurdueGuy]

Good thing the CTS is a MID-SIZED sport sedan then. The CTS matches the 5-series in nearly EVERY dimension, performes the same or better, and beats it on price. The CTS competes with the 5-series and E-class. The only way the CTS competes with the 3-series is if someone decides the 3-series is too small for them. Not everyone wants something the size of a CIVIC ya know.

All that said....There should be a smaller Caddy slotted under the CTS and the CTS should move up market. The visuals I've seen seem to indicat the CTS will do just that.

What do you do with the STS though? Dunno, probably grow it to 7-series size and drop the DTS.

The problem with dropping the DTS is the threat of losing loyal customers. Don't ditch old customers in the search for new ones. It might take some serious efforts on Caddy's part to transition the loyal Deville drivers over to the STS or other Caddy.

Edited January 12, 2006 by PurdueGuy

[Sixty8panther]

I'd love a Kappa Caddy... I really would but a car best suited to SCCA racing is not the priority right now IMHO.

First they need a flagship that will dethrone the Bentley & Maybach. A modern day Deusenberg or Pierce Arrow. Instant classic, evry celerity, Sheik, Millionare with a napoleon complex will buy one. They can make a business case for it at $100,000 but it can really sell for more like $200,000 if need be.

Next, now wiht the image of the ultimate luxury brand a $50-80 Deville

replacement in two & four door variety would be great. Northstar V12 power in the high end model.

After that a modern day RazorBack Eldorado for thier 6-series/CLK fighter.

THEN (outside of updates & redesigns) a Kappa Caddy.

[/wildest-fantasy]

[Cadillacfan]

I really think GM should limit the amount of platform sharing between Cadillac and the cheaper brands. I think the best thing about Cadillac now is that their platforms are very different from everything else GM has to offer. Keeping that unique aspect of the brand will be important to the future of Cadillac and it's buyers.

[jrockb4]

I really think GM should limit the amount of platform sharing between Cadillac and the cheaper brands.  I think the best thing about Cadillac now is that their platforms are very different from everything else GM has to offer.  Keeping that unique aspect of the brand will be important to the future of Cadillac and it's buyers.

Hmm, interesting. I wonder to what degree though. Many MB parts are trickiling down to the DCX lineup and doing wonders for Chrysler and Dodge. GM has to be able to figure out a way to do that without diminishing Cadillac. It just makes the cost equation that much better.

I also believe that Cadillac needs to introduce all of the high tech gadgets on teh Caddies at least a year before other cars get them (a la Infiniti).

The reason I asked the What's Next Question, is because it is said that it is much easier to go from Bad to Good, than from good to Great!. Caddy is good, but they need to improve the current lineup (interiors, perfect handling, upgrade powertrains, refresh styling (continiuous teweaking)) to just keep up. They need to do a great job at those things if they want to vault to the top.

I agree that Caddy is good right now and they spent a lot of money to get there, but in the current auto industry you can not spend and forget, you must have some thing that turns heads and keeps everyone's attention every year or at least every other year!!! Don't want us to come back in five years, talking about how Caddy was strong in the early part of the decade, but died as a result of neglect.

[SoCalCTS]

The problem with dropping the DTS is the threat of losing loyal customers.  Don't ditch old customers in the search for new ones.  It might take some serious efforts on Caddy's part to transition the loyal Deville drivers over to the STS or other Caddy.

I think the DTS should be renamed DeVille so that people know that it is not part of what the new Cadillac aims to be. The DTS(DeVille) should be a heritage car with a super soft suspension that absorbs every single bump in the road. It should have a plush interior by American standards and everything (even those cheesy landau tops) that its buyers want. This is the kind of car that people dream about retiring in. Why does the DeVille have to go head to head with a BMW 7-series? The upcoming ULS can be the world class car and DeVille can stay true to its American roots and forget about competing globally or winning a Motor Trend comparison test.

[jrockb4]

My personal opinion is that Cady needs a true LS/A8/7 Series/S Class fighter. Offer the DTS, keep it fwd, move the STS up to the size of the competition, Enlarge the CTS only a little and add a 3 series sized entry car.

By end of decade offer a couple of Coupe/Converts and a $150k+ flagship.

[chrominium steel]

No the dts should be RWD. And it would be nice if it was even bigger to compete with the Chrysler Imperial.

[enzl]

CTS- Needs a coupe/vert option, like the 3,A4 and others...

S/7/A8 competitor- RWD, kick ass machine priced under the competition.

Large Coupe- traditional Caddy product currently missing from the brand...You gotta believe eldo & coupe d'ville guys are waiting for one..perhaps link its development with the S-class vehicle to strtch development $?

[Cadillacfan]

No the dts should be RWD. And it would be nice if it was even bigger to compete with the Chrysler Imperial.

It should compete with the Mercedes S-Class and BMW 7-Series. The Imperial will probably not be built as nice as the concept since Chrysler is still just a mid-luxury brand.

[chrominium steel]

Anyway, Cadillac needs the ULS.

[gm_rocks]

i think you're in the minority on that one.

i also agree with much of sixty8. unfortunately, economics gets in the way.

I think it is ugly too, the front end is too long, the look of the front end is weird and I just don't like it.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

What I'd like to see for a Cadillac flagship is to combine the 1993-96 Fleetwood's stateliness, passenger and cargo room and 7,000 lb. towing capacity (more than small truck-based SUV's such as Jeep Liberty), with the style of the Sixteen concept car, to compete with the world's best, such as BMW 7-Series and Lexus LS450. Sharpen the CTS abnd STS styling, give a little more passenger and cargo room, make sure they're more exclusive in their appointments, make some price cuts and equipment additions (how about chrome aluminum wheels standard?). And bring back the Eldorado, styled after the XLR and 1967-69 Eldo, base it on the CTS' 113" wheelbase of Sigma II. Keep it locked on the Infiniti G35 competition, sized closer to 5-Series.

[Imaj]

What I'd like to see for a Cadillac flagship is to combine the 1993-96 Fleetwood's stateliness, passenger and cargo room and 7,000 lb. towing capacity (more than small truck-based SUV's such as Jeep Liberty), with the style of the Sixteen concept car, to compete with the world's best, such as BMW 7-Series and Lexus LS450. Sharpen the CTS abnd STS styling, give a little more passenger and cargo room, make sure they're more exclusive in their appointments, make some price cuts and equipment additions (how about chrome aluminum wheels standard?). And bring back the Eldorado, styled after the XLR and 1967-69 Eldo, base it on the CTS' 113" wheelbase of Sigma II. Keep it locked on the Infiniti G35 competition, sized closer to 5-Series.

I like everything you wrote except that I think the Eldorado should be more of 6-Series competitor (but with more legroom) and based of the STS..