Any change in G8?

[WCCPSGM]

Last I heard, we can't expect a G8 until 2009. Has this changed?

[91z4me]

That timeframe seems right. But bigger news is the speculation that Pontiac may become rebadged Holdens in the US + Solstice and G6.

[bowtie_dude]

Why does Pontiac need a full-sized sedan, especially if its being sold alongside Buicks? THAT is the real question.

[Northstar]

If the G8 is on the shorter Zeta and CTS sized, it will not be full-sized and won't compete against the Buicks.

[the_yellow_dart]

Why does Pontiac need a full-sized sedan, especially if its being sold alongside Buicks?  THAT is the real question.

166565[/snapback]

You don't think there's room for a gentle-suspension, cushy-seat Buick highway cruiser and a taught, pseudo-racing-seat M5 competitor Pontiac at the same dealership?

[guionM]

"I've been through the desert in a car with no code..."

:AH-HA_wink:

166626[/snapback]

Whadda ya mean? Dumb GM has nothing planned for Pontiac! The earliest GM can get anything going for Pontiac is 2025 or 2030.

Then again, whadda I know. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited July 14, 2006 by guionM

[Sixty8panther]

Why does Pontiac need a full-sized sedan, especially if its being sold alongside Buicks?  THAT is the real question.

166565[/snapback]

Don't start this stuff again.

That's the kind of mentality that makes brands irrelevant.

Giving POntiac more product, more GOOD product is the

best way to maek sure they'll be around for many

decades to come.

Just for $hits & giggles:

Why does Infiniti need the M45 & Q45?

Why does BMW need the 740i & 740iL

Why does Mercedes Benz need the CLS & S-class & E-class?

Seems like those brands are oversaturating their products

and yet they seem to be doing better than Pontiac $ wise.

[CSpec]

"I've been through the desert in a car with no code..."

:AH-HA_wink:

166626[/snapback]

Anyone who plays San Andreas should know that song too. "it was good to get out of the rain..."

[bowtie_dude]

Don't start this stuff again.

That's the kind of mentality that makes brands irrelevant.

Giving POntiac more product, more GOOD product is the

best way to maek sure they'll be around for many

decades to come.

Just for $hits & giggles:

Why does Infiniti need the M45 & Q45?

Why does BMW need the 740i & 740iL

Why does Mercedes Benz need the CLS & S-class & E-class?

Seems like those brands are oversaturating their products

and yet they seem to be doing better than Pontiac $ wise.

166722[/snapback]

Well, if you have Buick's full-size RWD car, and Chevrolet has a full-size RWD car, which will imaginably have a SS model, practically making it a carbon-copy of a full-size Pontiac.

I personally don't think Pontiac needs a full-size Zeta sedan. Now a coupe and convertible, yes. But I just don't see the need for a sports sedan from Pontiac when Chevrolet will have that base covered with an SS Impala.

But thats just my view on the issue.

As for a cheap M5 competitor, that car would also conceivably compete with a sports sedan from Cadillac as well.

I just feel GM needs to get away from having overlap and internal model competition, and a full-size sports sedan from Pontiac would be exactly that.

[ToniCipriani]

Mind you, Pontiac doesn't have a full size in its line up, even right now. The Grand Prix is midsize. So if the new coming midsize RWD is around the same size to a bit smaller, I think it's fine.

But performance is the key here. If they can manage to tune it so that it handles differently, they've got a winner.

And no way the "G8" will compete with the M5. At most Audi A6 or Acura RL.

Edited July 14, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[bowtie_dude]

Mind you, Pontiac doesn't have a full size in its line up, even right now. The Grand Prix is midsize. So if the new coming midsize RWD is around the same size to a bit smaller, I think it's fine.

But performance is the key here. If they can manage to tune it so that it handles differently, they've got a winner.

And no way the "G8" will compete with the M5. At most Audi A6 or Acura RL.

166794[/snapback]

If its no bigger than the Grand Prix thats fine, but like you said, thats not a full-sized car anyway.

[91z4me]

And no way the "G8" will compete with the M5. At most Audi A6 or Acura RL.

166794[/snapback]

How close is the GTO to the current 5-series? And how close to a M5.

[Camino LS6]

Horse with no name - America

Never thought I'd see it paraphrased here.

HSV as G8?

Yes,please! Just call it something else.

[91z4me]

HSV as G8?

Yes,please! Just call it something else.

166824[/snapback]

Grand Ville!

[Flybrian]

Grand Ville!

166827[/snapback]

Eww! That still sounds like a wagon. Bonneville!

[Sixty8panther]

Durring the golden era of GM Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Chevrolet,

Buick & Cadillac all had full size models... several!

Hardtop 4drs, Hardtop 2drs, Sedans, (2 & 4dr) Wagons, even

full size convertibles. You want to stick it to Toyota & have

GM get back to profitablility or doyou want to downsize each

division to the size of Mitshubishi volume wise?

More models = more variety = more sales to more demographic

The smaller and smaller you make a divisions lineup the LESS

cars they can sell and the more retards in corporate start saying

why do we even need Pontiac (or Buick) anyway?

An all RWD (& R-AWD) lineup of all different sizes is the way to go!

[nightwave]

This isn't the 60s where we had 50% of the market. As much as I'd like to see a big Pontaic again, I don't think we will for a long time.

[bowtie_dude]

Durring the golden era of GM Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Chevrolet,

Buick & Cadillac all had full size models... several!

Hardtop 4drs, Hardtop 2drs, Sedans, (2 & 4dr) Wagons, even

full size convertibles. You want to stick it to Toyota & have

GM get back to profitablility or doyou want to downsize each

division to the size of Mitshubishi volume wise?

More models = more variety = more sales to more demographic

The smaller and smaller you make a divisions lineup the LESS

cars they can sell and the more retards in corporate start saying

why do we even need Pontiac (or Buick) anyway?

An all RWD (& R-AWD) lineup of all different sizes is the way to go!

166840[/snapback]

This isn't the golden era of GM. The company can't afford to have its brand competing with each other when it commands 25% of the marketshare. The brands need to have UNIQUE offerings from each other. There's no harm in having 3 Lambda SUVs because they target different customers by offering differing levels of luxury.

If Pontiac is to become relevant then its going to HAVE to become more niche, and fill in a premium sporty slot beneath Buick. Like evok has said, Pontiac-Buick-GMC will act as one full lineup of vehicles. No overlap, PERIOD. A Lucerne-sized Pontiac sedan would make no sense when you can get an Zeta-based Impala SS that will do the exact same thing as a G8.

Again, I ask, with the Impala SS, WHAT is the purpose of another full-sized sports sedan in GM's lineup?

[bowtie_dude]

This isn't the 60s where we had 50% of the market.  As much as I'd like to see a big Pontaic again, I don't think we will for a long time.

166854[/snapback]

We'll never see a Pontiac with 250,000 sales a year. We'll either see a smaller Pontiac or a dead one. Its obvious that GM is moving Saturn to fill the space that Pontiac use to occupy, at least within the company, but with hopes that Saturn will be able to gain conquest sales instead of canibalizing Chevrolet or Buick.

Small RWD coupe

Small RWD convertible

Mid-size RWD/AWD sedan

Mid-size RWD/AWD coupe

Mid-size RWD/AWD convertible

Small or Mid-size AWD crossover

Thats what I envision for Pontiac if its to have any kind of relevance and market strength. Premium (not luxury) performance oriented vehicles aimed at 100-150k sales a year.

I can't see Pontiac going any other way. But hey, I'm no industry expert.

[WCCPSGM]

I vote for calling it the Parasille, or Ventura, how about SE2000?

And yes, I'm sure none of that is spelled right.

How about....Pheonix!

I hate the current aming system.

I would LOVE to know who at GM has such an incredible boner for Saturn that they will destroy very other brand to try and make a market for it.

At one time, before my time, it was:

Chevy

Pontiac

Oldsmobile

Buick

Cadillac

With GMC kinda doing its own thing.

Then it was:

Chevy Saturn GMC

Pontiac Buick Oldsmobile

Cadillac

We fixed that by eliminating storied Oldsmobile and setting up:

Chevy Saturn Pontiac Buick GMC

Cadillac

Is everyone following this. If GTO and Trans Am didn't exist, niether would Pontiac. It was going to go from Chevy clone to true performacne division, but of corse, they needed a G5 varriant of the Cavalier because econo rides are oh so sporty. Wonder why Porsche and BMW don't have 'em.

[bowtie_dude]

I vote for calling it the Parasille, or Ventura, how about SE2000?

And yes, I'm sure none of that is spelled right.

How about....Pheonix!

I hate the current aming system. 

I would LOVE to know who at GM has such an incredible boner for Saturn that they will destroy very other brand to try and make a market for it.

At one time, before my time, it was:

Chevy

Pontiac

Oldsmobile

Buick

Cadillac

With GMC kinda doing its own thing.

Then it was:

Chevy Saturn GMC

Pontiac Buick Oldsmobile

Cadillac

We fixed that by eliminating storied Oldsmobile and setting up:

Chevy Saturn Pontiac Buick GMC

Cadillac

Is everyone following this.  If GTO and Trans Am didn't exist, niether would Pontiac.  It was going to go from Chevy clone to true performacne division, but of corse, they needed a G5 varriant of the Cavalier because econo rides are oh so sporty.  Wonder why Porsche and BMW don't have 'em.

166925[/snapback]

If the dealers get reconciled to P-B-GMC, then they won't need a Delta clone for the volume, which is why dealers wanted a G5, for the sales, they couldn't give a $h! less about what Pontiac needs to stand.

Anyway, the way it SHOULD look in a few years is, in order of "premium-ness" (to make up a word here)

Chevrolet

Saturn

Pontiac-Buick-GMC

Cadillac

With Hummer and Saab doing their own little thing, fitting somewhere between PBGMC and Cadillac. Pontiac, Buick and GMC will each lose some sales due to moving up market, but together should make up for it, at least from dealer perspective.

[ToniCipriani]

How close is the GTO to the current 5-series?  And how close to a M5.

166821[/snapback]

But that's the GTO. I'm sure if the GP replacement is sold at the price of the GTO, there'll be a big hit on sales.

[91z4me]

But that's the GTO. I'm sure if the GP replacement is sold at the price of the GTO, there'll be a big hit on sales.

166957[/snapback]

Well just how many G8s do you think can be imported from AUS? Remember that there are going to be Statesmans coming over as Buicks as well.

If the car is totally new with a kick butt interior like we have seen, awesome (think BMW level) driving dynamics, and packed with tons of features like the current GTO is I think the price should actually got UP! Load it with content and bring up the transaction price.

Also remember the GP will get a slight refresh and be around for a few more years.

[xdre]

A Lucerne-sized Pontiac sedan would make no sense when you can get an Zeta-based Impala SS that will do the exact same thing as a G8.

Isn't the Zeta Impala growing in size compared to the current car?

[bowtie_dude]

Isn't the Zeta Impala growing in size compared to the current car?

167862[/snapback]

Yes. If the Pontiac Zeta is a mid-size car, then I have no issue with it. As long as it is unique to Pontiac, then its fine.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

That timeframe seems right.  But bigger news is the speculation that Pontiac may become rebadged Holdens in the US + Solstice and G6.

166516[/snapback]

That sucks because the new Commodore looks boring and bland, very uninspired. Nice stance though, but that's not much of a lineup. Then again, that's kind of like now, and its not like outside of Zeta-based models, Pontiac doesn't have much of a future anyway.

[aaaantoine]

This isn't the golden era of GM.  The company can't afford to have its brand competing with each other when it commands 25% of the marketshare.  The brands need to have UNIQUE offerings from each other.  There's no harm in having 3 Lambda SUVs because they target different customers by offering differing levels of luxury.

If Pontiac is to become relevant then its going to HAVE to become more niche, and fill in a premium sporty slot beneath Buick.  Like evok has said, Pontiac-Buick-GMC will act as one full lineup of vehicles.  No overlap, PERIOD.  A Lucerne-sized Pontiac sedan would make no sense when you can get an Zeta-based Impala SS that will do the exact same thing as a G8.

Again, I ask, with the Impala SS, WHAT is the purpose of another full-sized sports sedan in GM's lineup?

166879[/snapback]

How about a sports sedan that LOOKS more like a sports sedan?

Cosmetically, the Impala SS is about as exciting as waiting at the DMV to renew your driver's license.

[Robert Hall]

I could see the Holden VE SS V as a Pontiac sports sedan...it has proper RWD proportions, a taught, clean shape, without the huge overhangs of Pontiac's FWD sedans and a minimum of bodykit gorp. Add Pontiac badges, a pointed nose with split grill, and you have a Pontiac sports sedan..(hopefully with a name better than "G8)".

A car like this would give Pontiac credibility and viability.

PONTIAC NEEDS THIS CAR NOW

Edited July 19, 2006 by moltar

[ToniCipriani]

Bodykit? You mean body cladding?

They've been moving away from it already...

Look...

|

v

Edited July 19, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[bowtie_dude]

How about a sports sedan that LOOKS more like a sports sedan?

Cosmetically, the Impala SS is about as exciting as waiting at the DMV to renew your driver's license.

168376[/snapback]

I was referring to the future Zeta-based RWD Impala SS. Not the current W-body.

[trinacriabob]

I was referring to the future Zeta-based RWD Impala SS.  Not the current W-body.

168504[/snapback]

Is the Zeta a for-sure thing as far as (since I'm a little myopic, for those who know my posts):

1) Release date of 2009 or 2010

2) RWD

3) larger than current W-body Impala?

4) will Pontiac, Chevrolet and Buick each get one?

[91z4me]

Is the Zeta a for-sure thing as far as (since I'm a little myopic, for those who know my posts):

Yes.

1)  Release date of 2009 or 2010

For the Chevy Camaro and larger RWD Impala

2)  RWD

Yes and possibly AWD.

3)  larger than current W-body Impala?

Chevy sedan yes, in length and width and interior room. The Camaro will be wider but may not be for sure longer. See the concept and add a few inches for the Camaro.

4)  will Pontiac, Chevrolet and Buick each get one?

The Pontiac's and Buicks will likely be , in relatively low volume numbers, Holdens and so VE's till about 2011 or 2012. Buick will get the WM Statesman, Lutz has pretty much confirmed this in his leaks. Pontiac will likely get a Commedore with a new front and rear facia. I don't expect much to be different, though it was said that the GTO's design work was finished quite early on. I don't expect it would be very difficult to pull any changes from the finished GTO over onto the G8 (or whatever it gets called). That being said I don't think the next GTO will be a VE. It could be or it could be on GMNA's Zeta program. Both would arrive at about the same time.

My reasoning about this is that VE just came online, the plant has been updated and people were laid off when the GTO went away. The plant does not run a 3rd shift at the moment. VE was expensive $1 Billion! It needs to be paid off from the Holden plant because the GMNA RWD chassis is not the same thing. They will share suspension components powertrain and other components but the unibody is new for the GMNA RWD cars.

Also consider the plant that we KNOW will be making RWD cars in GMNA, Oshawa. We know the Impala was redone in 06. The RWD replacement will come online in 2009 or 2010 or so MY. The GP and Lacrosse are both getting re-skinned, and will share engines with the Impala (though the Lacrosse could keep the 3.6 HF). The reskinned GP and LAX are due around 08. So I expect, like the Impala, that they will be around 3 years and that puts it at 2011 or 2012.

[ponchoman49]

Quote: Any change in G8?

Hopefully the name!!!!!!!!!!

[thegriffon]

I'd take Lutz's leaks witha grain of salt. WM will be too old by the time it comes to replace the Lucerne. Don't count on anything being shipped from Australia again - remember Holden is down to two shifts now and has plenty of other export markts to take care of—the Middle East, Asia and South America, all of which are growing strongly. Buick will get a lwb Zeta sedan, Chevy will get a rwd Impala with the Malibu taking on the volume sales, there may even be a rwd Monte Carlo in addition to a Camaro and Monaro. Will there be a G8 and GTO as well? Probably, but they are keeping things very quiet if they've made a decision yet.

[91z4me]

I'd take Lutz's leaks witha  grain of salt. WM will be too old by the time it comes to replace the Lucerne. Don't count on anything being shipped from Australia again - remember Holden is down to two shifts now and has plenty of other export markts to take care of—the Middle East, Asia and South America, all of which are growing strongly. Buick will get a lwb Zeta sedan, Chevy will get a rwd Impala with the Malibu taking on the volume sales, there may even be a rwd Monte Carlo in addition to a Camaro and Monaro. Will there be a G8 and GTO as well? Probably, but they are keeping things very quiet if they've made a decision yet.

171204[/snapback]

I think that what you say is very possible but I am an optimist. Also lets remember that a Korean plant is supposed to be tooled up to help out with Holden's production export goals. Wheather that will be VZ cars for China and Korea or VE cars for other parts of the world I don't have a clue but the plant will be building something RWD.

Also Statesman may not be a replacement for Lucerene it could run along side it as the WM Statesman is rather Large and Luxurious, even compared to the DTS.

[wildcat]

thegriffon: I'm confused. Can you please clarify: so the lwb Zeta Buick will come before the Lucerne gets replaced in Oct. 2010 then? Will there be (and does the market call for) two large-ish Buick 4-door sedans? How much of its own bodywork will a Buick have - or do you expect it to be a virtual copy of the Holden, but with a Buick front and rear? Or will it be just like the Royaum is in China? Is this the vehicle GM will use to make a halo car for Buick?

[ehaase]

The Lucerne will probably be around 4 or 5 more years before Zeta Lucerne debuts, so the Statesman will be outdated by then. I don't see anything in thegriffon's post to hint that there will be two large Buick sedans at the same time.

Edited July 26, 2006 by ehaase

[wildcat]

ehaase: Thank you for kindly correcting me. 91z4me seemed to be suggesting that Buick would offer a Lucerne and a lwb Zeta, but perhaps I misunderstood there, too. Given your response, I'm relieved that GM won't be giving Buick two large 4-door sedans, in what I understand to be a declining market segment. By the way, I noticed your comment elsewhere on C&G about possibly canceling your subscription to Automotive News. I know that you hold them high on the accuracy scale. Traditionally, their special reports about GM, Ford, etc. "future product plans" come out several weeks in a row around August and are my favorite issues, so I contacted the Chicago advertising office of Automotive News a few days ago, to find out if any local newstand sold single weekly copies of the publication. Nope, I was told they are only available by subscription. Anyway, you're right, the news and rumors do make it here without having to pay for a print subscription.

Edited July 26, 2006 by wildcat

[ehaase]

I respect 91z4me, but my understanding is that the LaCrosse moves to Epsilon II for 2010, and I don't know his source of information for refreshing the Grand Prix. The 2008 LaCrosse update won't be nearly as extensive as the 2006 Impala update, and the car doesn't need to be around 4 more years. The Lucerne is Buick's core model; it is doing a good job of replacing the LeSabre and Park Avenue; and I think another large Buick sedan is a mistake.

Automotive News is too expensive, considering that the good information makes it here or is reported at autoweek.com within a few days.

Edited July 26, 2006 by ehaase

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I agree-I mean I always liked Park Avenue for its elegant styling, but two FWD large cars was unnecessary in this day and age-all the next Lucerne truly needs is to look like a Buick, unlike the current car.

[91z4me]

I respect 91z4me, but my understanding is that the LaCrosse moves to Epsilon II for 2010, and I don't know his source of information for refreshing the Grand Prix.  The 2008 LaCrosse update won't be nearly as extensive as the 2006 Impala update, and the car doesn't need to be around 4 more years.

171541[/snapback]

Here is my logic: LaX update in 2008 and it will be around till what 2010 or 2011. GP gets an update at the same time and will be around during the same time period. Likely all the W-bodies will be made in one plant at some point. Even if I am off and W-body production ends in 2010 that leaves the refreshed GP and LaX as 2 model year cars which is really short, even for the new GM. I think that 2011 is the best bet. But it is just my opinion.

Guy McCoy and others have talked about the re-skinning of the GP coming up. I figure it will happen at the same time as the LaX re-skin.

[wildcat]

. . .  two FWD large cars was unnecessary in this day and age . . .

171594[/snapback]

And there's no chance GM would say the Lucerne is FWD and the lwb Zeta is RWD so Buick can have both? (I hope they don't, but I'm just wondering.) Edited July 26, 2006 by wildcat

[ehaase]

And there's no chance GM would say the Lucerne is FWD and the lwb Zeta is RWD so Buick can have both?  (I hope they don't, but I'm just wondering.)

171685[/snapback]

Unless GM is going to update the G body one more time, what FWD platform would GM use for the next generation Lucerne?

[wildcat]

No, I mean let the present G-body Lucerne run its course (until it's replaced by a RWD Zeta in late 2010), but also sooner than that (ca.2008?) introduce (import from Australia?) a large wheelbase Statesman as a RWD flagship, priced above Lucerne. Maybe as their "halo", though personally, I'd prefer something with more pizzazz and not a conventional 4-door. Otherwise, why did Lutz mention the Statesman becoming a Buick? Is he talking 5 model years from now?

[ehaase]

As thegriffon said in post 36, I'd take Lutz' leak about the Statesman with a grain of salt. At this time, I am skeptical about any more Holdens coming here.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I thought LaCrosse and Grand Prix were to die after the 2008 model year? Or would they stop production in 2008 as early '09 models? I hope Statesman in platform and powertrain only comes here as Impala and Lucerne-the exterior is bland and doesn't remotely match Buick's in style (though right now it does, considering how unBuick-like the current model looks). And remember, the Chi architecture got cancelled, so there probably (thankfully) won't be any more FWD large sedans.

[wildcat]

LaCrosse is continuing on, as an Epsilon II.