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Camino LS6

Hey PCS

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Is there anything good in your boss' vision of the new GM?

Seriously, where are his "gotta have" products?

We've yet to see anything worth talking about.

Is it really all about bland, midsize FWD sedans?

Surely there must be something.

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My boss is but one man, GM is going after the biggest market now, which no longer wants big RWD vehicles with tons of horespower. The world has changed again Camino, just like it did in 1974.

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My boss is but one man, GM is going after the biggest market now, which no longer wants big RWD vehicles with tons of horespower. The world has changed again Camino, just like it did in 1974.

That wasn't the question.

But, since you brought that up, GM is about to make the same mistake it made back then once more. It is panicking it's way into being a one-trick pony all over again, and will be caught with its collective pants down... again.

A mix of vehicles is what's needed, not a one-size-fits-all sedan.

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That wasn't the question.

But, since you brought that up, GM is about to make the same mistake it made back then once more. It is panicking it's way into being a one-trick pony all over again, and will be caught with its collective pants down... again.

A mix of vehicles is what's needed, not a one-size-fits-all sedan.

Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old. Sorry, but I have no sympathy now.

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Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old. Sorry, but I have no sympathy now.

Ah, so it is a vendetta?

Did you really love the FWD Pontiacs that much?

My point is that GM needs a mix - always. An all RWD brand wouldn't prevent that. There are plenty of brands, right?

A few good RWD performance products should always be available in several price ranges across the brands. As should economical FWD sedans, good trucks, comfortable FWD cruisers, pure luxury cars, and so on.

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Variety is the spice of life. When you have too many versions of the same vehicle (like say Epsilon) you get accused of badge engineering, or more importantly, too many similar products that compete with each other. If you put all of your eggs in one basket, and the market shifts again, then you're caught off guard and unable. Having a variety of products and flexible plants you can quickly adapt to market fluctuations.

History is going to repeat itself.

Edited by Dodgefan
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Is there anything good in your boss' vision of the new GM?

Seriously, where are his "gotta have" products?

We've yet to see anything worth talking about.

Is it really all about bland, midsize FWD sedans?

Surely there must be something.

Dude, I don't think that's cool..I kinda feel like you are calling PCS out.....and that doesn't sit well with me.

Hw may work for GM, but he doesn't have control over the product....

Mr. Wagner does.

The comsumer does.

I understand you are pissed..(as many are), but someone I don't see what good this will do......

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Variety is the spice of life. When you have too many versions of the same vehicle (like say Epsilon) you get accused of badge engineering, or more importantly, too many similar products that compete with each other. If you put all of your eggs in one basket, and the market shifts again, then you're caught off guard and unable. Having a variety of products and flexible plants you can quickly adapt to market fluctuations.

History is going to repeat itself.

The problem is that GM doesn't have the money to have the variety of products it once had.

In lies the overlap....so do we have less brands, or less products?

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I feel that people fail to realize that there are going to be some major changes, not just at GM, but most all automakers...

The next few years are going to make it tough to be a car lover.....

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I do realize that, and I can see why some brands may need to be cut, or product be reduced, but this isn't a new problem. back when GM had more cash it dumped it into trucks and SUVs instead of trucks, SUVS, and cars. Now the shift is too cars. What happens when the market shifts to something else?

The other problem is, even if you cut brands, and you stick Saab and Saturn with Buick, you'll have problems just as much. Saab and Buick are more premium, and Saturn is supposed to have a premium image now too. You'll have at least 3 EPII products in the showroom, and maybe 3 or more Delta II. There will still be product overlap. And if you don't have variety you're just selling the same thing under a different wrapper.

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Dude, I don't think that's cool..I kinda feel like you are calling PCS out.....and that doesn't sit well with me.

Hw may work for GM, but he doesn't have control over the product....

Mr. Wagner does.

The comsumer does.

I understand you are pissed..(as many are), but someone I don't see what good this will do......

PCS is the messenger right? Well, who better than to leave a calling card of sorts with?

The underlying message here is for GM to try and make all approaches work and not to abandon a single one of them over the other. That is what can potentially help to ensure GM will weather the market conditions it will face whenever they may come.

Camino raises a bit of advice that should be considered, especially if GM is supposed to be considering all approaches to solving the problem (which, I might wish to add, does not have one simple solution).

Edited by YellowJacket894
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Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old. Sorry, but I have no sympathy now.

And PCS isn't the only one. My Dad who's owned six Pontiacs since 1975 has given up on them too. We saw a G8 at a dealer a while back. He told me that between the poor fuel economy of the GMC Acadia and that 'terrible' G8, he'll only set foot in a B-P-G Dealer for a Buick car because they're 'getting it right'. He said that it didn't look like a Pontiac, that it was ugly inside and out, that the Upholstery quality was crap, and that RWD just will not cut it (bearing in mind he almost bought a Slate Metallic 2007 Grand Prix GT last fall). The only thing nice he had to say about it was it had a big back seat. I guess it didn't help that it was the same shade of blue as my Cavalier. It's a sin to make the damn thing so heavy and without AWD too.

Pontiac cannot be saved by making a rebadged Holden Commodore in wild colors. I don't even consider it to be a Pontiac because it just isn't. Just because its clone is sold on another continent doesn't make it okay. It doesn't have any Pontiac DNA in it at all, only the G6 Coupe and Solstice do nowadays. It's this life-force of sorts that flows through a Pontiac, you can feel it just by looking at one. It's really hard to explain. Even with its bad proportions, "wrong wheel drive" and overhangs, the GP still evokes this sort of thing with me when I see one- from its greenhouse to the fact that it actually looks "Wide Track" (even with its Enterprise Sticker). This leads me to believe that Pontiac's salvation lies in building Pontiacs not Chevies or Holdens. I'm not saying we all go back to the W-Bod, but at least invest some time and money into the thing because as far as I'm concerned it's a hack-job as it is now, just as bad as the G5 or G3 or Torrent. Just because it has RWD and an optional V8 doesn't give it a pass for this transgression in my books.

Edited by vonVeezelsnider
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I do realize that, and I can see why some brands may need to be cut, or product be reduced, but this isn't a new problem. back when GM had more cash it dumped it into trucks and SUVs instead of trucks, SUVS, and cars. Now the shift is too cars. What happens when the market shifts to something else?

The other problem is, even if you cut brands, and you stick Saab and Saturn with Buick, you'll have problems just as much. Saab and Buick are more premium, and Saturn is supposed to have a premium image now too. You'll have at least 3 EPII products in the showroom, and maybe 3 or more Delta II. There will still be product overlap. And if you don't have variety you're just selling the same thing under a different wrapper.

I have a feeling the brands we are used to are going to change.....

And the product verlap will be ok if all the products look and feel different...and when they have time for more platforms, they will happen....gotta work with what they have now....

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And PCS isn't the only one. My Dad who's owned six Pontiacs since 1975 has given up on them too. We saw a G8 at a dealer a while back. He told me that between the poor fuel economy of the GMC Acadia and that 'terrible' G8, he'll only set foot in a B-P-G Dealer for a Buick car because they're 'getting it right'. He said that it didn't look like a Pontiac, that it was ugly inside and out, that the Upholstery quality was crap, and that RWD just will not cut it (bearing in mind he almost bought a Slate Metallic 2007 Grand Prix GT last fall). The only thing nice he had to say about it was it had a big back seat. I guess it didn't help that it was the same shade of blue as my Cavalier. It's a sin to make the damn thing so heavy and without AWD too.

Pontiac cannot be saved by making a rebadged Holden Commodore in wild colors. I don't even consider it to be a Pontiac because it just isn't. Just because its clone is sold on another continent doesn't make it okay. It doesn't have any Pontiac DNA in it at all, only the G6 Coupe and Solstice do nowadays. It's this life-force of sorts that flows through a Pontiac, you can feel it just by looking at one. It's really hard to explain. Even with its bad proportions, "wrong wheel drive" and overhangs, the GP still evokes this sort of thing with me when I see one- from its greenhouse to the fact that it actually looks "Wide Track" (even with its Enterprise Sticker). This leads me to believe that Pontiac's salvation lies in building Pontiacs not Chevies or Holdens. I'm not saying we all go back to the W-Bod, but at least invest some time and money into the thing because as far as I'm concerned it's a hack-job as it is now, just as bad as the G5 or G3 or Torrent.

And I am going to agree with Von of this too....

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PCS is the messenger right? Well, who better than to leave a calling card of sorts with?

The underlying message here is for GM to try and make all approaches work and not to abandon a single one of them over the other. That is what can potentially help to ensure GM will weather the market conditions it will face whenever they may come.

Camino raises a bit of advice that should be considered, especially if GM is supposed to be considering all approaches to solving the problem (which, I might wish to add, does not have one simple solution).

Yes and No.

And their is nothing wrong with offering advice, But we we have no control over the bottom line......

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And PCS isn't the only one. My Dad who's owned six Pontiacs since 1975 has given up on them too. We saw a G8 at a dealer a while back. He told me that between the poor fuel economy of the GMC Acadia and that 'terrible' G8, he'll only set foot in a B-P-G Dealer for a Buick car because they're 'getting it right'. He said that it didn't look like a Pontiac, that it was ugly inside and out, that the Upholstery quality was crap, and that RWD just will not cut it (bearing in mind he almost bought a Slate Metallic 2007 Grand Prix GT last fall). The only thing nice he had to say about it was it had a big back seat. I guess it didn't help that it was the same shade of blue as my Cavalier. It's a sin to make the damn thing so heavy and without AWD too.

Pontiac cannot be saved by making a rebadged Holden Commodore in wild colors. I don't even consider it to be a Pontiac because it just isn't. Just because its clone is sold on another continent doesn't make it okay. It doesn't have any Pontiac DNA in it at all, only the G6 Coupe and Solstice do nowadays. It's this life-force of sorts that flows through a Pontiac, you can feel it just by looking at one. It's really hard to explain. Even with its bad proportions, "wrong wheel drive" and overhangs, the GP still evokes this sort of thing with me when I see one- from its greenhouse to the fact that it actually looks "Wide Track" (even with its Enterprise Sticker). This leads me to believe that Pontiac's salvation lies in building Pontiacs not Chevies or Holdens. I'm not saying we all go back to the W-Bod, but at least invest some time and money into the thing because as far as I'm concerned it's a hack-job as it is now, just as bad as the G5 or G3 or Torrent. Just because it has RWD and an optional V8 doesn't give it a pass for this transgression in my books.

Hmm ... I feel that I wish to clear my personal record here: I only support what concepts the Holden Commodore can bring to Pontiac as a G8. It's rear-drive, it's performance oriented, and the car is mainly driver focused. Styling is subjective; while I do wish that it had more Pontiac DNA, it has the correct proportions and stance for a Pontiac and isn't offensive to the eyes. While I do prefer a coupe, it is wrapped in a more versatile sedan wrapper. While it's not 100 percent what I look for in a Pontiac, it is what I look for mostly (it would be 100 percent if the base model had a stick) in a sedan, and that's what makes it work for me.

GM doesn't need to abandon the G8 as its range-topping model, it should build on it. Take the basics of what makes it wholesome as a driver's car and a performance car, then strip out the excess fat, add a stick, and give it a true Pontiac flavor. That is a Pontiac sedan from Utopia in my opinion.

Edited by YellowJacket894
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Yes and No.

And their is nothing wrong with offering advice, But we we have no control over the bottom line......

Indeed, we can only hope GM will hear us out. But when sound thoughts are being offered, why instantly reject them?

You need every tool you can get when you first approach a problem. Instantly disregarding one of them could mean you just wind up with something just as broke as when you started, if I make any sense here.

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What you don't understand is that decisions have already been made, you can't negotiate your way out of that, just ask the CAW in Oshawa.

Anyway, I'm sure y'all will figure it out on your own. I have more pleasant things to attend to. I wish you all a fond adieu.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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I still don't have an answer to my question.

Just what, exactly, will this "new GM" have to offer?

We've seen little of any consequence.

The messenger has thus far only carried news of doom for what we now have with no positive alternatives being offered.

So, I ask again, what "gotta have" cars are they planning to offer?

I'm afraid that I already know the answer.

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My boss is but one man, GM is going after the biggest market now, which no longer wants big RWD vehicles with tons of horespower. The world has changed again Camino, just like it did in 1974.

Oh good, because nothing bad came from *THAT* in terms of automotive design.

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What you don't understand is that decisions have already been made, you can't negotiate your way out of that, just ask the CAW in Oshawa.

WE don't need to negotiate at all. There are people in here who bleed GM who are being left out in the cold. GM has already lost the customers who don't care about the brands. Is GM trying to lose the customers who do? GM has to negotiate with US. Here I am, a GM fan since I was 3, and GM is now down to just two models that would be on my shopping list were I in the market today <CTS and Malibu>. Compare that to Ford which has 3 in the Mercury brand alone.

So... tell us... is there anything in the pipeline that would be of even vague interest to us.

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Someone needs to explain to me how a G6 coupe"feels like a Pontiac" Is the cheap interior? The poor proportions? (some people don't seem to care about such things though), the fact that the Accord coupe is probably a better car to drive, and looks better inside and out (in addition to being of much higher quality). Maybe it's that gawd awful Street Package which gives it a set of beaver teeth and shiny wheels, and a massive spoiler, but no real performance upgrades? Sorry. I'm not buying it. You could swap the Malibu's front end on it and have an ugly Chevy coupe.

If we were to go buy what truly feels like a Pontiac, the Solstice is the only car in the entire lineup that qualifies. Even then, it's full of compromises, which include the somewhat clunky manual transmission, and by nature having limited appeal, not to mention the cheap interior.

The G8 may not have been born a Pontiac, but it has all of the right qualities: excellent proportions, world class handling, stylish and clean interior, and excellent engine options. To top it all off, there is no other car like it in the NA GM lineup...something no other Pontiac can claim title to...not even the Solstice.

I think Pontiac can have FWD cars, but it has to be done right, and the G6 is not an example of "done right" AWD and a RWD model or 2 should be included.

But whatever, it's been decided the fate of Pontiac I'm sure, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Edited by Dodgefan
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Is it really all about bland, midsize FWD sedans?

I'm afraid it is..that is the core of the market, has been for over 20 years now.

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Someoneneeds to explain to me how a G6 coupe"feelslike a Pontiac" Is teh cheap interior? The poor proportions? (some peopel don't seem to care about such things though), the fact that the Accord coupe is preobably a better car to drive, and looks better inside and out (in addition to being of much higher quality). Maybe it's that gawd aweful Street Package which gives it a set of beaver teeth and shiny wheels, and a massive spoiler, but no real performance upgrades? Sorry. I'm not buying it. You could swap the Malibu's front end on it and have an ugly Chevy coupe.

If we were to go buy what truely feels like a Pontiac, the Solstice is the only car in the entirelineup that qualifies. Even then, it's full of comproises, which include the somewhat clunky manual transmission, and by nature having himisted appeal, not to mention the cheap interior.

The G8 may not have been born a Pontiac, but it has all of the right qualities: excellent proportions, world class handling, stylish and clean interior, and excellenet engine options. To top it all off, there is no other car like it in the NA GM lineup...something no other Pontiac can claim title to...not even the Solstice.

I think Pontiac can have FWD cars, but it has to be done right, and the G6 is not an example of "done right" AWD and a RWD model or 2 should be included.

But whatever, it's been decided the fate of Pontiac I'm sure, so we'll just have to wait and see.

I agree, despite the typos. :P The G6 is really a second-rate product, and the Solstice has a hopeless roof and major interior shortfalls. The G8 is good, but quickly becoming an anachronism.

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