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BIG 3 BUNKRUPTCY

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......... sucking Ohio, Ontario, Indiana and Illinois with it, into a black hole.

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Probably... But who cares?!?!?! The "rust belt" doesn't employ many people an the people are ignorant anyway.

Remember, it's only New York and California that count.

(Or at least that's what the media told me)

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If the Detroit big 2 are allowed to go under, we will see a recession worse than the 1928 depression. It amazes me how many people out in the press and in the local area say who cares, let them go under.

Yes I know the executives and UAW are totally to blame, but due to the millions of jobs that are at stake, this country cannot afford to let them go bankrupt. The Tax payers have already bailed out the airline industry and taken on their pentions for the unions, I can see this also happening with the auto industry.

Going to be an interesting first year for Obama.

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It shouldn't be allowed to happen.

The Detroit 3 and the UAW dug their own grave. In the 70s and 80s they built junk, cashed in, and didn't see the Japanese as a threat. They continue to be mismanaged today; Wagoner (making $15 million a year) has overseen a $73 billion loss since 2004. The economy wasn't that bad in 2004-2006 yet GM lost tons of money. Detroit has been stubborn with big egos and entitlement philosophy for 50+ years, this is the wake up call they needed. They need new management, the current crew can't turn this ship around.

All three won't go bust, they will just downsize, so the Michigan economy may take a hit, but it won't be devastated. Perhaps though some of the bailout money should go to laid off workers, and in retraining them to do new jobs in business segments that have a brighter future than the American auto industry.

Even if they did go bust, at some point the car market will rise back to 15+ million units a year, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc will have to hire more employees to build that many cars, and jobs will be recreated, just not at UAW wages.

Edited by smk4565

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YES!

Welcome to my hell! (I live in Michigan)

The news gets more interesting every night...

One can't even find a job at Wal mart around here....

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SMK really does live in cloud-cuckoo-land. You know, you're not supposed to eat the lotus-flowers. What exactly do you think autoworkers should be retained to do? Collect cans for recycling? Sell home loans? Plant trees? How exactly is the economy going to recover when no-one has a job? Who is going to buy all those cars from Toyota and Honda when everyone is unemployed? Investing billions in the auto industry is exactly the kind of economic stimulus that was needed even without the cash crisis facing the industry. What else is the government going to do? Upgrade rural road 4 from a pony trail to a 4-lane interstate? Replace the plumbing in the congressional bathrooms with gold fittings?

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I've been to Michigan, doesn't seem like there is a whole lot left to collapse.

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"...In the 70s and 80s they built junk,..."

God I am sooo sick of hearing about ancient history. When will some quit bringing up old times? GM/F/CC are NOT making "junk" and people have to look at the current products! Maybe 'taste masters' don't like "the feel of the interior materials", but that's no reason to lay off hundreds of thousands of workers.

And, if one thinks having only import makes will be 'better'. Just wait for higher prices from less competetion. In fact a brand new car will be a 'luxury item', since many will have "McJobs".

Edited by Chicagoland

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I've been to Michigan, doesn't seem like there is a whole lot left to collapse.

I lived there '94-97...it was dying then, probably worse now. Ann Arbor was great, but Detroit looked like a war zone.

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SMK really does live in cloud-cuckoo-land. You know, you're not supposed to eat the lotus-flowers. What exactly do you think autoworkers should be retained to do? Collect cans for recycling? Sell home loans? Plant trees? How exactly is the economy going to recover when no-one has a job? Who is going to buy all those cars from Toyota and Honda when everyone is unemployed? Investing billions in the auto industry is exactly the kind of economic stimulus that was needed even without the cash crisis facing the industry. What else is the government going to do? Upgrade rural road 4 from a pony trail to a 4-lane interstate? Replace the plumbing in the congressional bathrooms with gold fittings?

They could learn how to build and install windmills, solar panels and hydro electric generators. They could be trained to do other kinds of infrastructure projects like power lines or repairing bridges. Toyota can hire some of them as well. The steel industry in Pittsburgh was before I was born, but this city was dependent on steel like Detroit is on cars, now we don't have a steel industry (aside from US Steel headquarters), yet the local economy is fine, even better than most other parts of the country.

I agree that GM needs a bailout, but this is going to b a one shot deal. If they burn $2 billion a month in cash in 2009, and use up all the government money, they'll just go bankrupt in 2010 and there won't be a second bailout to save them. The bailout will be there, but it is what GM does with it that matters, I fear they will just go about business as usual like they have for the past 4 years.

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"...In the 70s and 80s they built junk,..."

God I am sooo sick of hearing about ancient history. When will some quit bringing up old times? GM/F/CC are NOT making "junk" and people have to look at the current products! Maybe 'taste masters' don't like "the feel of the interior materials", but that's no reason to lay off hundreds of thousands of workers.

Chrysler makes the Avenger and Sebring, that is true junk. Ford has the Ranger and Town Car, GM has the Impala, G5, Trailblazer (although they did a good job getting rid of the grand prix, minivans, etc). They all still have some junk that only rental car agencies want to buy, and even the Malibu and CTS need big incentives to sell.

The past hurts them because those customers that left and went to Honda/Toyota aren't coming back no matter what GM and Ford makes. I know that Ford quality is tied with Honda and Toyota, but most people don't and even if they do, they hold a grudge from being screwed over in the past. Even worse, is it is mainly the baby-boomer crowd that has money that won't consider domestics. My mom is one of them, she won't consider any GM product, even at 50% off, she was screwed in the past and won't go back.

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Even worse, is it is mainly the baby-boomer crowd that has money that won't consider domestics. My mom is one of them, she won't consider any GM product, even at 50% off, she was screwed in the past and won't go back.

It's not just the boomers...most people I know of my generation (X) and demographic (software professionals) won't even consider domestics...Jeep is about the only brand that has any traction amongst my friends and colleagues of my generation. Acura/Honda, Toyota, Audi, BMW, Nissan/Infiniti, Subaru, etc get their $$$... I feel very much in the minority for owning and liking Big 3 rides..

Edited by moltar

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sorry if this has been covered already, but if the Big 3 declare bankruptcy, does that mean they will go out of business for sure? The two concepts are not inclusive.

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sorry if this has been covered already, but if the Big 3 declare bankruptcy, does that mean they will go out of business for sure? The two concepts are not inclusive.

No, they can file chapter 11 bankruptcy which allows them to reorganize, gets the creditors off their backs and would allow them to redo labor contracts. They would stay in business throughout the process, and a federal court would oversee the bankruptcy. If they file Chapter 7 bankruptcy, they liquidate everything and close down. Chapter 11 would be any of the Detroit 3's path.

GM will be the first one to run out of money, Ford can survive 2009, GM could be out of money by January.

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well, lets see. if the boomers lose their retirement funds and their children don't have jobs to keep them in the nursing home, then they will love working at culvers. 2 shifts a day, 6 days a week.

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everything i seen says chapter 11 will most assuredly lead to chapter 7

Chapter 11 is their way out of the UAW deal that costs them $2000 more per car. To me this is their best path, combined with government aid. If they just take the bailout money, but continue to burn $2 billion a month, in December 2009 they will be out of money again.

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The Detroit 3 and the UAW dug their own grave. In the 70s and 80s they built junk, cashed in, and didn't see the Japanese as a threat. They continue to be mismanaged today; Wagoner (making $15 million a year) has overseen a $73 billion loss since 2004. The economy wasn't that bad in 2004-2006 yet GM lost tons of money. Detroit has been stubborn with big egos and entitlement philosophy for 50+ years, this is the wake up call they needed. They need new management, the current crew can't turn this ship around.

All three won't go bust, they will just downsize, so the Michigan economy may take a hit, but it won't be devastated. Perhaps though some of the bailout money should go to laid off workers, and in retraining them to do new jobs in business segments that have a brighter future than the American auto industry.

Even if they did go bust, at some point the car market will rise back to 15+ million units a year, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc will have to hire more employees to build that many cars, and jobs will be recreated, just not at UAW wages.

Take a hit? $h!.....shows me just how little you know about Michigan.

1. So Honda/Toyota will hire the workers? What? Robots are the future my friend, not people...

2. All 3 won't go bust, you say? If you knew Sears might go out of business, would you shop there? I'm guessing you won't. Nothing spooks people more in bad times than bad news. The sheer number of companies that go out of business you surely surprise you (not just automakers here)

3. GM is turning around, and it is not there fault about the $h!ty timing with the double hit that we are taking (wall street/ Housing bust)....that, is just bad timing......

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Chapter 11 is their way out of the UAW deal that costs them $2000 more per car. To me this is their best path, combined with government aid. If they just take the bailout money, but continue to burn $2 billion a month, in December 2009 they will be out of money again.

Even if they shake the UAW, how are they going to pay the employees benefits? Or does that go away with the UAW too?

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No, they can file chapter 11 bankruptcy which allows them to reorganize, gets the creditors off their backs and would allow them to redo labor contracts. They would stay in business throughout the process, and a federal court would oversee the bankruptcy. If they file Chapter 7 bankruptcy, they liquidate everything and close down. Chapter 11 would be any of the Detroit 3's path.

GM will be the first one to run out of money, Ford can survive 2009, GM could be out of money by January.

Um, when you are as big of a company as GM, that could be a mess...

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I lived there '94-97...it was dying then, probably worse now. Ann Arbor was great, but Detroit looked like a war zone.

It was getting better, but the last year has been a big downhill slide.....

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Chapter 11 is their way out of the UAW deal that costs them $2000 more per car. To me this is their best path, combined with government aid. If they just take the bailout money, but continue to burn $2 billion a month, in December 2009 they will be out of money again.

word on the street is chapter 11 wont be a factor, chapter 7 is more likely the number at the top of that paper stack.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

in the meantime i think i may have to pick up some new shirts from jalopniks store

Save-GM-T-Shirt.jpg

Edited by cletus8269

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in all seriousness, it might be better for the company to file.... (yes i almost totally got out of gm today.)

it's prolly better for the country.... in the long term. we need to really let competition spur this business (and others) and stop all this BS that gets in that way.

I don't want to see it file as much as any of you, I just wish it was still likely they could recover. we can't print our way out of this popped economic bubble, we need better decisions from the top down and the bottom up (in and out of the company)

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Even if they shake the UAW, how are they going to pay the employees benefits? Or does that go away with the UAW too?

That could all be gone, under chapter 11, they can tear up every contract they had for labor and suppliers.

You say GM is turning it around, but they have lost $73 billion over the past 4 years and this is the worst year, they haven't hit the bottom yet. How are they turning it around, sales are down 45% this year, and they are burning nearly $2 billion a month in cash. Furthermore, they had to cut R&D spending and delay new models, so if the economy does rebound, come 2010/2011 they'll have dated products while other automakers have new ones. They are in crisis mode, not turnaround mode. Can't only blame the economy either, because VW, Toyota, Honda aren't facing bankruptcy. Blame it on the business model that only is adequate under flourishing economic conditions.

Edited by smk4565

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That could all be gone, under chapter 11, they can tear up every contract they had for labor and suppliers.

You say GM is turning it around, but they have lost $73 billion over the past 4 years and this is the worst year, they haven't hit the bottom yet. How are they turning it around, sales are down 45% this year, and they are burning nearly $2 billion a month in cash. Furthermore, they had to cut R&D spending and delay new models, so if the economy does rebound, come 2010/2011 they'll have dated products while other automakers have new ones. They are in crisis mode, not turnaround mode. Can't only blame the economy either, because VW, Toyota, Honda aren't facing bankruptcy. Blame it on the business model that only is adequate under flourishing economic conditions.

GM is not down 45% THIS YEAR. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. A big chunk of the losses were paper, as they 'wrote off' things like Delphi, etc. By the end of 2010, the new 'Nox, Orlando (or whatever they call it), CTS coupe, CTS wagon, Camaro, Volt and possibly the Cruze will all be in production. It would be 2012 or later before GM's products became horribly dated again. Brazil is also working on a replacement small truck.

As I said, it's only the next several months that are critical. Once the U.S. market rebounds, auto sales will recover. There is no reason to presume 2010 will see 14 million sales - it could roar back to 17 or even 18 million. GM would be in a very good position to grab market share - if it can survive the next couple quarters.

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GM is not down 45% THIS YEAR. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. A big chunk of the losses were paper, as they 'wrote off' things like Delphi, etc. By the end of 2010, the new 'Nox, Orlando (or whatever they call it), CTS coupe, CTS wagon, Camaro, Volt and possibly the Cruze will all be in production. It would be 2012 or later before GM's products became horribly dated again. Brazil is also working on a replacement small truck.

As I said, it's only the next several months that are critical. Once the U.S. market rebounds, auto sales will recover. There is no reason to presume 2010 will see 14 million sales - it could roar back to 17 or even 18 million. GM would be in a very good position to grab market share - if it can survive the next couple quarters.

Sales are down 45% this year compared to 2007, I didn't make that up, it was on CNBC today.

CTS coupe was delayed 1 year to a 2011 model, as were the 9-4x and 9-5. Buick LaCrosse was delayed to mid-late 2009. The GLK and Q5 will beat the SRX to market, and that segment is already over crowded. Epsilon II Malibu was delayed also, and they don't have replacements in line for the Impala, STS, DTS, Lucerne. GM always says "the new product is coming" "just wait til next year." Problem is, everyone else has new products coming also, the competition doesn't stand still. The Genesis is getting an 8-speed transmission in 2010 or 2011, is the CTS?

GM said the Sky, Aura, Astra would turn around Saturn, they didn't. They said the CTS, G8, Malibu and Lambda trio were going to be class leading and turn things around, and they didn't. Those products are better than what they replaced, but not revolutionary. GM needs revolutionary products to turn it around, and that takes big time R&D dollars which unfortunately they don't have.

I want to see GM on top again, I want to see a 400 hp Cadillac that gets over 30 mpg, a Malibu so good they sell 500,000 a year, and an electric car as fast as a CTS that goes 300 miles on a single charge. A car with an integrated computer and glove box keyboard so traveling business people can surf the internet, type reports or compose email from the passenger seat. The iPhone can do it, why can't a car. How about an e-flex SUV with a solar roof that charges itself in the parking lot, or can power the house when parked in the driveway in the summer.

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GM always says "the new product is coming" "just wait til next year." Problem is, everyone else has new products coming also, the competition doesn't stand still. The Genesis is getting an 8-speed transmission in 2010 or 2011, is the CTS?

so does that mean they are parroting you when you dscribe cadillac vs bmw? i mean you just said the genesis is getting an 8 sp in _____. which means they dont have it yet but obviously this is a huge oversight for gm because they havent either..

I want to see GM on top again, I want to see a 400 hp Cadillac that gets over 30 mpg, a Malibu so good they sell 500,000 a year, and an electric car as fast as a CTS that goes 300 miles on a single charge. A car with an integrated computer and glove box keyboard so traveling business people can surf the internet, type reports or compose email from the passenger seat. The iPhone can do it, why can't a car. How about an e-flex SUV with a solar roof that charges itself in the parking lot, or can power the house when parked in the driveway in the summer.

now you are just being silly. <_<

Edited by cletus8269

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It has been "Next year country" at GM for quite some time now. Remember how the now-known-to-be-mediocre Cobalt was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?

GM has made strides, but they were miles behind and their competitors have not been standing still.

GM is an average automaker and as such is good for probably no more than 10% of the US market. Even if they are bailed out they are probably still looking at huge layoffs to get down to the appropriate staffing levels. They need to get rid of most of their brands and a huge number of dealerships.

Bailout VS no bailout the results will probably be largely the same... except that the billions in tax dollars that GM would have funneled straight to their overseas creditors could instead be given directly to the laid off workers or to attract the automakers that are taking share from the big three.

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Sales are down 45% this year compared to 2007, I didn't make that up, it was on CNBC today.

Unless CNBC has a crystal ball that predicts GM selling next to nothing this month, YTD sales change sits at around -21% as of last month.

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Sales are down 45% this year compared to 2007, I didn't make that up, it was on CNBC today.

CTS coupe was delayed 1 year to a 2011 model, as were the 9-4x and 9-5. Buick LaCrosse was delayed to mid-late 2009. The GLK and Q5 will beat the SRX to market, and that segment is already over crowded. Epsilon II Malibu was delayed also, and they don't have replacements in line for the Impala, STS, DTS, Lucerne. GM always says "the new product is coming" "just wait til next year." Problem is, everyone else has new products coming also, the competition doesn't stand still. The Genesis is getting an 8-speed transmission in 2010 or 2011, is the CTS? …

Then either CNBC are idiots ot you need your ears waxed. GM sales were down 45% last month, not this year. The delays you quote are rumor, not fact. GM went to great pains during their dire warning on Friday to point out that most of those models were not being delayed. The GLK and Q5 were always going to beat the SRX to market, and are smaller models in a different segment that has few entrants and few sales.

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so does that mean they are parroting you when you dscribe cadillac vs bmw? i mean you just said the genesis is getting an 8 sp in _____. which means they dont have it yet but obviously this is a huge oversight for gm because they havent either..

now you are just being silly. <_<

Hyundai developing an 8-speed is an example of them trying to innovate, when they offer a 400 hp V8 and 8-speed tranny for CTS or MKS money, Hyundai is going to win over buyers they used to not get. GM needs to constantly innovate so they don't fall behind, and attract new customers.

I am not being silly, integrated computer would be easy, the 7-series has in car internet and Chrysler is doing that also. They could incorporate on-board diagnostics with that so you don't need to go to a dealer to pull a check engine code.

BMW has a car that gets 36 mpg highway and does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds. If Cadillac had some innovation and entrepreneurial spirit, they could easily do something faster and more powerful than a CTS that got well over 30 mpg. Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears. It is possible to engineer a 30+ mpg, sub 5-second 0-60 car. Just like 300 miles on a single battery charge is possible, Tesla already has 200 mile range, GM can't beat a little start-up in California?

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It has been "Next year country" at GM for quite some time now. Remember how the now-known-to-be-mediocre Cobalt was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?

GM has made strides, but they were miles behind and their competitors have not been standing still.

GM is an average automaker and as such is good for probably no more than 10% of the US market. Even if they are bailed out they are probably still looking at huge layoffs to get down to the appropriate staffing levels. They need to get rid of most of their brands and a huge number of dealerships.

Bailout VS no bailout the results will probably be largely the same... except that the billions in tax dollars that GM would have funneled straight to their overseas creditors could instead be given directly to the laid off workers or to attract the automakers that are taking share from the big three.

Agree with all. The Cobalt was thought to be the savior in 2004.

I know GM needs a bailout, and I believe that they will get one, and the original $25 billion for the Detroit 3 will be increased to $50 billion. (I wonder the Gov't has to borrow that from China?) My question is, what will GM do with the bailout money to fix their problems, and will they be successful. I have little faith in Rick, Lutz, and Co. to actually pull this off.

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Hyundai developing an 8-speed is an example of them trying to innovate, when they offer a 400 hp V8 and 8-speed tranny for CTS or MKS money, Hyundai is going to win over buyers they used to not get. GM needs to constantly innovate so they don't fall behind, and attract new customers.

I am not being silly, integrated computer would be easy, the 7-series has in car internet and Chrysler is doing that also. They could incorporate on-board diagnostics with that so you don't need to go to a dealer to pull a check engine code.

BMW has a car that gets 36 mpg highway and does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds. If Cadillac had some innovation and entrepreneurial spirit, they could easily do something faster and more powerful than a CTS that got well over 30 mpg. Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears. It is possible to engineer a 30+ mpg, sub 5-second 0-60 car. Just like 300 miles on a single battery charge is possible, Tesla already has 200 mile range, GM can't beat a little start-up in California?

I would call going from 1 to 2 gears (did anyone even make a 1-speed?) innovation. I would call adding overdrive innovation. Adding more gears that fall within the same final drive ratio is NOT innovation, it's just an improvement. And, from what I've read, going beyond 6 gears is not even an improvement.

What BMW car (I'm assuming you are refering to a car currently available in NA) gets 36 mpg highway?

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That could all be gone, under chapter 11, they can tear up every contract they had for labor and suppliers.

You say GM is turning it around, but they have lost $73 billion over the past 4 years and this is the worst year, they haven't hit the bottom yet. How are they turning it around, sales are down 45% this year, and they are burning nearly $2 billion a month in cash. Furthermore, they had to cut R&D spending and delay new models, so if the economy does rebound, come 2010/2011 they'll have dated products while other automakers have new ones. They are in crisis mode, not turnaround mode. Can't only blame the economy either, because VW, Toyota, Honda aren't facing bankruptcy. Blame it on the business model that only is adequate under flourishing economic conditions.

Numbers don't mean everything.

Try telling that to millions of homeowners.....

You can't change 30 years of issues overnight.

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Agree with all. The Cobalt was thought to be the savior in 2004.

I know GM needs a bailout, and I believe that they will get one, and the original $25 billion for the Detroit 3 will be increased to $50 billion. (I wonder the Gov't has to borrow that from China?) My question is, what will GM do with the bailout money to fix their problems, and will they be successful. I have little faith in Rick, Lutz, and Co. to actually pull this off.

I'm not seeing how the cobalt was going to save anything.

It was worlds better than the Cavalier that sat on the vine for 10 years.

The Cobalt was supposed to be a stop gap product for a few years until GM updated the issues with the first delta car, the Ion. The Balt was going to get some serious updates after a few years(2007), but it didn't happen.....you can thank te truck line up for that....

The part that killed GM was pouring that money into the truck program, instead of their car lineup....

And the Cobalt itself was not a bad car-though it could have been updated.....

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Hyundai developing an 8-speed is an example of them trying to innovate, when they offer a 400 hp V8 and 8-speed tranny for CTS or MKS money, Hyundai is going to win over buyers they used to not get. GM needs to constantly innovate so they don't fall behind, and attract new customers.

I am not being silly, integrated computer would be easy, the 7-series has in car internet and Chrysler is doing that also. They could incorporate on-board diagnostics with that so you don't need to go to a dealer to pull a check engine code.

BMW has a car that gets 36 mpg highway and does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds. If Cadillac had some innovation and entrepreneurial spirit, they could easily do something faster and more powerful than a CTS that got well over 30 mpg. Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears. It is possible to engineer a 30+ mpg, sub 5-second 0-60 car. Just like 300 miles on a single battery charge is possible, Tesla already has 200 mile range, GM can't beat a little start-up in California?

BUT, Telsa has other issues.....

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I am not being silly

a keyboard for internet and email and whatnot in the glovebox. yes thats silly. they already make it. they call them laptops.

They could incorporate on-board diagnostics with that so you don't need to go to a dealer to pull a check engine code.

while it would be nice to know what the problem is, what would the average person do with said knowledge... take it to the dealership and have them fix it.

Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears.

and they would sell thousands of them... in a healthier economy because the cost would be significant. which wont help GM going bankrupt at all.

Just like 300 miles on a single battery charge is possible, Tesla already has 200 mile range, GM can't beat a little start-up in California?

and tesla hasnt made a dent in its production run with less than 100 of the 1200 spoken for cars built. they are running out of money faster than GM

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/31/el...motors_bailout/

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BUT, Telsa has other issues.....

From what I've read, I expect Tesla to fold before the end of the year.

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What BMW car (I'm assuming you are refering to a car currently available in NA) gets 36 mpg highway?

335d on sale soon for $44,900 (and tax credit eligible). Faster than a DI CTS, costs the same, 10 mpg better.

Edited by smk4565

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Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears.

Yeah that won't be outrageously expensive.

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They could learn how to build and install windmills, solar panels and hydro electric generators. They could be trained to do other kinds of infrastructure projects like power lines or repairing bridges. Toyota can hire some of them as well. The steel industry in Pittsburgh was before I was born, but this city was dependent on steel like Detroit is on cars, now we don't have a steel industry (aside from US Steel headquarters), yet the local economy is fine, even better than most other parts of the country.

That'd be great, but for one who's gonna pay em? Secondly, it's not as easy as just "putting up windmills". Mackinaw power wanted to put about 20 of em up on Oceola county recently but permit was turned down because a few "locals" didn't want to see them out their back window. Same thing happening now in MA, a windfarm based a mile out in the ocean is being protested because a few high class people with homes on the beach "don't want to see them" even though they are a mile out. F'in rediculous if you ask me and sick of it.

The blame of the current ecinomical crisis and lack of alt. fuel infrastructure is not the fault of anybody other than ourselves!!!! We "want" all this stuff but either dont' want to pay for it, or dont' want it in our backyards. We "needed" new vehicles and a big house we are barely able to afford paycheck to paycheck. Compete and total lack of future planning because we can't wait or save a little to buy somethings, we need it now so put it on a credit card..... a couple years later, "Oh No, how are we going to pay off this $15k CC dept and pay the house when I've just been layed off!" And with gas, nobody cared what type of vehicles were produced or what they got for milage because gas was 'cheap', but as soon as it hits $4 a gallon all of a sudden it's a crisis.... because NOBODY THOUGHT AHEAD and it's now somebody elses fault. We "Live in the moment" and that's what brought us to where we are today. Also known as greed...... Yeah I'm extremely bitter about the common person's judgment.

Edited by BuddyP

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Yeah that won't be outrageously expensive.

It's a Cadillac, it is supposed to be expensive. Charge $120,000 for it, Lexus gets that for their dumb 20 mpg hybrid.

I agree on people not planning ahead. People wanted big SUVs and houses they couldn't afford and now they are paying for it, I don't feel sorry for people that were irresponsible and are paying for it now. Although I wish people were more responsible and didn't rack up credit card debt or default on home loans to weaken the economy.

Edited by smk4565

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"335d on sale soon for $44,900 (and tax credit eligible). "

Who the $@!#!# can afford that?? Rich jerks couldn't care less about "the masses". But they will not be able to get thier $44K Beemer when they loose everything too.

Again, so sick of hearing about petty stuff like interior "feel" and 8 speeds. Most people cant afford luxo crap. So since GM doesnt have snob appeal, millions should lose jobs?

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It's a Cadillac, it is supposed to be expensive.

sorry, missed the "Cadillac" part.

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"335d on sale soon for $44,900 (and tax credit eligible). "

Who the $@!#!# can afford that?? Rich jerks couldn't care less about "the masses". But they will not be able to get thier $44K Beemer when they loose everything too.

Again, so sick of hearing about petty stuff like interior "feel" and 8 speeds. Most people cant afford luxo crap. So since GM doesnt have snob appeal, millions should lose jobs?

Apparently, a lot of people can afford it, the 3-series easily outsold the Cobalt or G6 last month. The 335d costs the same as a CTS, do only rich jerks buy the CTS? Will Cadillac's whole customer base lose everything? Plus the 335d will have a tax credit of $1200-1800 (hasn't been decided yet) and it costs about $700 less per year to fuel than a CTS.

I would agree that many people can't afford luxury cars, but then why did GM bank on GMT900 and Lambda full size SUVs that are $30-50,000, or Hummers and Escalades, while ignoring cars. They never made real threats to the Civic, Corolla, Jetta, Mini, Prius, etc. The Malibu is as close as they have come to the Camry/Accord, but it is only selling half the volume, and they really lagged in that segment in 2002-2006.

GM management made bad decisions. The UAW refused to make concessions for years, thinking that $73 an hour (including benefits) was a reasonable wage for an auto worker, while Toyota and other manufacturers pay half that. Detroit News once interviewed a Delphi forklift operator that makes $103,000 a year, when the national average for that job is $26,000. Why should my tax dollars go to paying a forklift operator $100k a year.

The UAW and GM brought this upon themselves, it is no one else's fault but their own. That being said, I believe they need and will get bailout money, and I am fine with that because the loss of 1-2 million jobs would damage the economy even more. But if they don't change their business model, GM will require government aid EVERY YEAR.

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Apparently, a lot of people can afford it, the 3-series easily outsold the Cobalt or G6 last month. The 335d costs the same as a CTS, do only rich jerks buy the CTS? Will Cadillac's whole customer base lose everything? Plus the 335d will have a tax credit of $1200-1800 (hasn't been decided yet) and it costs about $700 less per year to fuel than a CTS.

Everyone I know that has a 3-series leases em... not 'rich people', just normal upper middle class folk. I'd like to see the CTS offered with a diesel and manual in the US, I'd seriously consider one. I like the 3-series for it's driving dynamics but wouldn't buy one--they are too common, too many pricks and poseurs buy them these days, IMHO (and I'm a former BMW owner)... one of the things I like about the CTS is they aren't as common, not the mainstream choice that the 3-series has become.

Edited by moltar

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Even if they did go bust, at some point the car market will rise back to 15+ million units a year, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc will have to hire more employees to build that many cars, and jobs will be recreated, just not at UAW wages.

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I won't even bother wasting my breath.

That very mindset is IMO, what will destroy what's left of america.

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From what I've read, I expect Tesla to fold before the end of the year.

has tesla even certified or crash tested any of their designs?

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335d on sale soon for $44,900 (and tax credit eligible). Faster than a DI CTS, costs the same, 10 mpg better.

NICE. oh by the way, diesel was a full dollar higher at the pump the other day. I am sure those diesels will FLY out of the showroom now.

Side note. Ethanol, 1.34 a gallon. Guess my buddy can keep his Avalanche. screw the beemer.

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Everyone I know that has a 3-series leases em... not 'rich people', just normal upper middle class folk. I'd like to see the CTS offered with a diesel and manual in the US, I'd seriously consider one. I like the 3-series for it's driving dynamics but wouldn't buy one--they are too common, too many pricks and poseurs buy them these days, IMHO (and I'm a former BMW owner)... one of the things I like about the CTS is they aren't as common, not the mainstream choice that the 3-series has become.

BMW's aren't even attractive anymore.

I think the XF is the car to have right now if you really want to make a statement. Whenever i happen upon the trendy spots of town, I see new XF's. BMW's are now for followers.

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NICE. oh by the way, diesel was a full dollar higher at the pump the other day. I am sure those diesels will FLY out of the showroom now.

Side note. Ethanol, 1.34 a gallon. Guess my buddy can keep his Avalanche. screw the beemer.

Apples vs. oranges--you can't compare a 3-ton full-size truck to a nimble compact sports sedan. Besides, the BMW gets more than twice the mileage of the truck.

Edited by moltar

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has tesla even certified or crash tested any of their designs?

Don't know, but they have made some deliveries...people are registering and driving 'em (at least in the Bay Area), so unless they got an low-volume exemption, they must have.

Edited by moltar

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Apples vs. oranges--you can't compare a 3-ton truck to a nimble sports sedan. Besides, the BMW gets more than twice the mileage of the truck.

What you can compare is BMW's diesel vs. gas gains, which aren't as remarkable as the Jetta's gains. So, who cares about the 335d... it doesn't even have an optional manual transmission...

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BMW's aren't even attractive anymore.

I think the XF is the car to have right now if you really want to make a statement. Whenever i happen upon the trendy spots of town, I see new XF's. BMW's are now for followers.

The XF is nice, much higher price point than a 3 series, though. For XF money, though, I'd rather have a CLS (style) or an AWD diesel E-class (practicality).

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What you can compare is BMW's diesel vs. gas gains, which aren't as remarkable as the Jetta's gains. So, who cares about the 335d... it doesn't even have an optional manual transmission...

NO MANUAL??? Ugh. It's rather pointless without a manual option.

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I would agree that many people can't afford luxury cars, but then why did GM bank on GMT900 and Lambda full size SUVs that are $30-50,000, or Hummers and Escalades, while ignoring cars. They never made real threats to the Civic, Corolla, Jetta, Mini, Prius, etc. The Malibu is as close as they have come to the Camry/Accord, but it is only selling half the volume, and they really lagged in that segment in 2002-2006.

so let me get this straight, GM is totally at fault for everyone and their brother skipping from vans to SUV's and trucks. Toyota and Honda saw the slice that detroit was getting and out pops tundras, ridgelines, sequoias, pilots and everything else you can imagine. if GM made their money making trucks and suvs its because people were buying them left and right. had they not i am sure people would have been criticising them for that. toyota and honda didnt take a hit like the big 3 cause they started with cars first then added the "gas guzzzlers".

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so let me get this straight, GM is totally at fault for everyone and their brother skipping from vans to SUV's and trucks. Toyota and Honda saw the slice that detroit was getting and out pops tundras, ridgelines, sequoias, pilots and everything else you can imagine. if GM made their money making trucks and suvs its because people were buying them left and right. had they not i am sure people would have been criticising them for that. toyota and honda didnt take a hit like the big 3 cause they started with cars first then added the "gas guzzzlers".

I think the difference is level of investment and dependency on the trucks and SUVs... full size trucks and and SUVs were apparently a small investment for Toyota, but GM bet the farm on them. GM is/was (Chrysler even more so) far more dependent on profits from full size trucks and SUVs than the Toyota is/was.

Edited by moltar

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What you can compare is BMW's diesel vs. gas gains, which aren't as remarkable as the Jetta's gains. So, who cares about the 335d... it doesn't even have an optional manual transmission...

The engine has 425 lb-ft of torque, and their manual can't handle that, unless they use the SMG 7-speed, which is an option few people would buy since manuals aren't that popular here.

The 335d is supposed to save $700 a year compared to the 335i, plus it gives off far less CO2 emissions.

I'd rather have a Jaguar XF over any car on the market right now. I am looking forward to the XF based coupe and convertible and new XJ that are coming also.

Moltar is right, that GM bet the farm on SUVs, they stopped work on Zeta and some car projects to rush the Silverado and Tahoe to market. One reason why the Camaro still isn't for sale. Toyota and Honda made profit on every small car they sold, plus profit on their trucks, regardless of which way the market went they were diversified. Putting your money in 30 stocks and mutual funds makes more sense than putting it all in 2 or 3.

Edited by smk4565

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toyota and honda didnt take a hit like the big 3 cause they started with cars first then added the "gas guzzzlers".

:scratchchin:

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It's not that simple, boys and girls - and I'll be many of you understand that already. If it were only Toyota/Honda and the other Japanese multis attacking, GM and Ford probably would have done okay, but they've got Audi/BMW/Mercedes eating away at the high end (Buick/Cadillac) and Hyundai/Kia mauling the bottom end (Chevrolet).

For sure GM and Ford were guilty in the '80s of not speculating whether or not Japan Inc was capable of such an assault, but how many people (myself included) looked at the Acura Legend and realized it was as big as MacArthur's beach-head?

The GMT-900s had to be rushed to market, to defend what was then a million unit a year market for GM. If gas prices hadn't spiked and the housing bubble not popped, GM would have had time to roll out its new generation of eco-buggies. The timing has been lousy, but I don't see how scrapping the GMT-900s development in '05 and spending the money on moving up the Cruze, new 'Nox, etc. would have changed things today.

Wagoner & the gang have had to know since '05 that they were racing against the clock, have been down-sizing like fiends, rejiggling UAW contracts, etc. This was one giant poker game since the last brush with bakruptcy in '05, but I guess Fate kept the wild card well hidden.

I find it ironic (as oil drops below $60 a barrel today) that gas is going to get very cheap again but Detroit may not be around in 6 months to reap the benefits of a resurgent market.

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That'd be great, but for one who's gonna pay em? Secondly, it's not as easy as just "putting up windmills". Mackinaw power wanted to put about 20 of em up on Oceola county recently but permit was turned down because a few "locals" didn't want to see them out their back window. Same thing happening now in MA, a windfarm based a mile out in the ocean is being protested because a few high class people with homes on the beach "don't want to see them" even though they are a mile out. F'in rediculous if you ask me and sick of it.

Different strokes for different folks and all that, but I find Windmills among the more picturesque man made objects .

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The XF is nice, much higher price point than a 3 series, though. For XF money, though, I'd rather have a CLS (style) or an AWD diesel E-class (practicality).

The CLS is quite pricy compared to the XF as well.. XF is priced more like an STS up here anyways. Only the supercharged version is in E-Class pricing territory.

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The CLS is quite pricy compared to the XF as well.. XF is priced more like an STS up here anyways. Only the supercharged version is in E-Class pricing territory.

Interesting..the XF is a lot cheaper than I thought it was... I thought it was more in the $65-75k range.

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I lived there '94-97...it was dying then, probably worse now. Ann Arbor was great, but Detroit looked like a war zone.

Flint.....(or Flint area....Grand Blanc and Fenton) from '88 to '93......then north Oakland County from '93 to '95.

Truly a depressing place to live......even Oakland County was not all that it was cracked up to be. I go back for the auto show every January and can never see myself living there again.

(Although I do confess quite a bit of fun hitting the gay bars in Royal Oak and Detroit.....and one particularly rough gay bar in Detroit, GoldCoast, which has some of the hottest go-go boys in town.....and boy let me tell you about what they offer for a lap dance.....WOW, oh WOW.)

I agree with Moltar.....Ann Arbor is about the only redeeming area I've ever been to in SE MI. (Edit: Royal Oak is actually pretty neat too....if you HAD to live in the immediate Detroit area.)

Actually spent some time on the west coast, Grand Rapids area......and that seems like a world away from SE MI.....actually a nice area....and Grand Rapids seems like quite a nice town. Downtown had lots of bars and restaurants....and condos/lofts with people living down there.

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The XF is nice, much higher price point than a 3 series, though. For XF money, though, I'd rather have a CLS (style) or an AWD diesel E-class (practicality).

I've never been a fan of the XF. It just doesn't do it for me.

I don't even like the supposed "innovative" interior. The flip-over vents and rising round shifter just scream "gimick" to me. And I don't find the interior especially plush, either.....(another issue I have with the XKs I've sat in.) In fact, I find the CTS to have a much more stylish, and just as well-built interior as the XF.

Plus, XF is really tight inside....tighter than a CTS in my opinion....and the XF gives off the impression of being a much larger car, even if it's not.

Plus, while I don't find it's exterior unattractive, it just doesn't seem to be a Jaguar to me.

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the XF in the flesh is STUNNING.

regarding the 335 diesel. nice, but, now that gas is two bucks, no one will care. just like why now when gas is two bucks, it exposes the prius as a one trick pony.

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the XF in the flesh is STUNNING.

regarding the 335 diesel. nice, but, now that gas is two bucks, no one will care. just like why now when gas is two bucks, it exposes the prius as a one trick pony.

It won't stay at 2 bucks though...will be back to $4 or more eventually, I suspect. I'd buy a diesel now.. and remember, the Prius is about clean and green, not just gas mileage.

Edited by moltar

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Interesting..the XF is a lot cheaper than I thought it was... I thought it was more in the $65-75k range.

Canadian?

$50-64,000 in US dollars, which I think is a good deal, incredible interior.

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Canadian?

$50-64,000 in US dollars, which I think is a good deal, incredible interior.

Yes, I was thinking $65-75k USD...it's cheaper than I thought.

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It won't stay at 2 bucks though...will be back to $4 or more eventually, I suspect. I'd buy a diesel now.. and remember, the Prius is about clean and green, not just gas mileage.

But of course demand for oil has dropped 60% in the past 3 months, which is WHY oil has dropped in price by 60%, right? :glare:

I am beside myself with vexation right now. Two years ago, we would never have thought $150 a barrel was possible; six months ago, who would have thought we'd be seeing the south side of $60 before Xmas? I really wanna be a free market believer, but the skeptic in me is getting awful suspicious about who is really in charge, or controlling things.

Is this an oil producer/retailer plot to kill the hybrids/alternate fuell vehicles? Has someone cashed in their chips (at $147 a barrel) and made a ton of money? Are the middle class, once again, getting it up the ying-yang?

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But of course demand for oil has dropped 60% in the past 3 months, which is WHY oil has dropped in price by 60%, right? :glare:

I am beside myself with vexation right now. Two years ago, we would never have thought $150 a barrel was possible; six months ago, who would have thought we'd be seeing the south side of $60 before Xmas? I really wanna be a free market believer, but the skeptic in me is getting awful suspicious about who is really in charge, or controlling things.

Is this an oil producer/retailer plot to kill the hybrids/alternate fuell vehicles? Has someone cashed in their chips (at $147 a barrel) and made a ton of money? Are the middle class, once again, getting it up the ying-yang?

Well, it could be a vast right wing conspiracy...I don't trust the oil companies, Texans, or the Saudis...(a certain well-known GOP Texas political family has known ties to the oil industry and teh Saudis). Could be up to something evil..

Edited by moltar

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Is this an oil producer/retailer plot to kill the hybrids/alternate fuell vehicles? Has someone cashed in their chips (at $147 a barrel) and made a ton of money? Are the middle class, once again, getting it up the ying-yang?

I assume that it is a combination of high U.S. dollar, decreased demand from world recession, removing some of the speculation, etc. Any one want to add to the list?

This is pretty hard on Russia and very hard on Venezuela and Iran. Too bad (not).

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The CLS is quite pricy compared to the XF as well.. XF is priced more like an STS up here anyways. Only the supercharged version is in E-Class pricing territory.

Before or after the $10K rebates which are, once again, on offer by the Europeans?

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I assume that it is a combination of high U.S. dollar, decreased demand from world recession, removing some of the speculation, etc. Any one want to add to the list?

This is pretty hard on Russia and very hard on Venezuela and Iran. Too bad (not).

Speculators aren't panicking about the fuel supply anymore, they're panicking about too many other things.

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I could see the potential for oil to surpass $100/barrel again soon if demand was the same as 12 months ago, but with the speculators hiding and demand way down on top of that, I think we're more likely to see time on the low side of $2 rather than the high side of $3. 90% of the $90 spike in oil ($60-$150) was pure speculation.

Saw an XF last month- the cost cutting at the rear of the car (I was following it a few miles) cheapened the image immensely. Elements of jaguars of yore hard to shake, apparently.

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Saw an XF last month- the cost cutting at the rear of the car (I was following it a few miles) cheapened the image immensely. Elements of jaguars of yore hard to shake, apparently.

jaguar_xf_2009_dw.jpg

Cadillac-STS-V-11.jpg

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prius is a one trick pony. gas mileage/green, whatever, is its only calling card. for performance, interiors, value, handling, nearly all other facets by how which autos are evauated, the prius is easily outlclassed by virtually everything else.

when gas is 2 bucks, it essentially has nothing going for it. you've put yourself in a box.

pretty high level of sacrifice just to show off to your friends that you're green. (yes, you're one of those that contributed to the hype that caused gas to skyrocket in price and kill our enitre economy).

when a 335 diesel, that you have to pay more to buy and a dollar more for each gallon of fuel, you might still have a bimmer at least, but every time you pull into a fuel station you're craning your neck like hell trying to figure out if you even have a chance at being able to fill up. 45 grand for an overweight subcompact with no rear seat space......nice job.

Edited by regfootball

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335d averages 30 mpg, 10 more than a CTS or 335i, it more than makes up for the higher cost of diesel. That is Cobalt mileage on a car faster than a CTS DI. They'll bring in some new buyers, GM fans are just jealous that there isn't a 30 mpg CTS on sale right now.

The 3-series outsold the following last month:

Cobalt

G6

entire Buick brand

entire Saturn brand

CTS, DTS, STS, XLR combined

If BMW can make one car charge $45k for it, and outsell 5 combined Saturns that sell for half as much, who has the better business plan?

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335d averages 30 mpg, 10 more than a CTS or 335i, it more than makes up for the higher cost of diesel. That is Cobalt mileage on a car faster than a CTS DI. They'll bring in some new buyers, GM fans are just jealous that there isn't a 30 mpg CTS on sale right now.

The 3-series outsold the following last month:

Cobalt

G6

entire Buick brand

entire Saturn brand

CTS, DTS, STS, XLR combined

If BMW can make one car charge $45k for it, and outsell 5 combined Saturns that sell for half as much, who has the better business plan?

The CTS is 5-series sized to begin with, so its silly to compare it to a smaller vehicle, of which the Alpha would be a better point of comparison as long as GM can weather the storm.

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They'll bring in some new buyers, GM fans are just jealous that there isn't a 30 mpg CTS on sale right now.

i dont know about anyone else but i feel put in my place :rolleyes:

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335d averages 30 mpg, 10 more than a CTS or 335i, it more than makes up for the higher cost of diesel. That is Cobalt mileage on a car faster than a CTS DI. They'll bring in some new buyers, GM fans are just jealous that there isn't a 30 mpg CTS on sale right now.

The 3-series outsold the following last month:

Cobalt

G6

entire Buick brand

entire Saturn brand

CTS, DTS, STS, XLR combined

If BMW can make one car charge $45k for it, and outsell 5 combined Saturns that sell for half as much, who has the better business plan?

Good points.. I'd love to see Cadillac have a 30+ MPG diesel CTS on sale here now, be better for the brand than the uber-lame Escalade Hybrid...

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