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vonVeezelsnider

Detroit 2010: Cadillac XTS Platinum Concept

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Hey, lookithur what I found in the recently necromanced thread:

Said beautifully.

And this:

(And this dude too.)

elderly-man-driving.jpg

:P

Who buy's LSes, S-classes, and 7-series again? Usually people over 65 and rap stars.

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Who buy's LSes, S-classes, and 7-series again? Usually people over 65 and rap stars.

Funny... I've seen none of those types of people driving an LS, S-Class, or 7 Series recently.

And as far as why the drivetrain layout matters... it affects what engine you can fit under the hood (think: more cylinders). I know, I know, the powerplant in the concept can make 350 HP, yeah... but GM has often gotten in trouble for trying to tell the buyers what they need instead of giving them what they want.

Hybrid or not, they're not gonna be successful trying to convince potential buyers that their 350 HP is better than, say, Lexus' 380, BMW's 400, Mercedes' 381, or Audi's 350 or 360... and certainly not while mated to a CVT.

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Who buy's LSes, S-classes, and 7-series again? Usually people over 65 and rap stars.

Looks more like a DTS driver. What's the median DTS owner age? 70?

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but GM has often gotten in trouble for trying to tell the buyers what they need instead of giving them what they want.

+1

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Funny... I've seen none of those types of people driving an LS, S-Class, or 7 Series recently.

And as far as why the drivetrain layout matters... it affects what engine you can fit under the hood (think: more cylinders). I know, I know, the powerplant in the concept can make 350 HP, yeah... but GM has often gotten in trouble for trying to tell the buyers what they need instead of giving them what they want.

Hybrid or not, they're not gonna be successful trying to convince potential buyers that their 350 HP is better than, say, Lexus' 380, BMW's 400, Mercedes' 381, or Audi's 350 or 360... and certainly not while mated to a CVT.

4-fix ratios and 2 E-CVTs

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Is that more akin to the transmission in the Malibu or Tahoe hybrid? (just so I know)

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People who own a DTS are not going to want to go to a Buick. There is a reason why people bought the DTS over the Buick that were identical in the first place. . . One is a Cadillac. I know this may be a tough mindset for people to understand, but you can't piss off customers that you have already just to try and get new customers. People who own a Cadillac want another Cadillac to replace it with.

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Is that more akin to the transmission in the Malibu or Tahoe hybrid? (just so I know)

Tahoe.

Actually, it's probably from the still born Saturn Vue hybrid.

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I'm starting to agree with Balthazar that had Cadillac called this a "new, exclusive to Cadillac, platform" and "uses an innovative new AWD Hybrid powertrain that can route the majority of torque to the rear wheels" and "due to production line flexibility can be built along side the Regal", we wouldn't be having this fight.

Except for the fact that the AWD system is not new, since it was already used for Saab, and that the platform isn't exclusive to Cadillac since Buick uses it too. And I would still complain about it even if both of those were true.

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People who own a DTS are not going to want to go to a Buick. There is a reason why people bought the DTS over the Buick that were identical in the first place. . . One is a Cadillac. I know this may be a tough mindset for people to understand, but you can't piss off customers that you have already just to try and get new customers. People who own a Cadillac want another Cadillac to replace it with.

Only problem is that this clientele will be either dead or have their license revoked before too long.

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And why does everyone feel the need to bring up the A8. A sedan that sold 105 units in Dec 09, 1463 for the entire year, and that includes the S8, and A8L. We never bring up the A8, because it is invisible in the market. The 7 series sells 1200 a month, and had 7,159 sales through Oct 09. If you let the money vote, it is going to BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes, which all happen to be on RWD platforms.

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If you let the money vote, it is going to BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes, which all happen to be on RWD platforms.

Correlation is not causation.

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Only problem is that this clientele will be either dead or have their license revoked before too long.

Do you know something that I don't? Am I going to die or have my license revoked? LOL!

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CaddyXLR-V ~ >>"And why does everyone feel the need to bring up the A8. A sedan that sold..."<<

The reason the A8 is repeatedly brought up here, is that in too-numerous-to-count previous Cadillac threads, audi is frequently in the half-handful of competitors who 'show Cadillac how it's done'. Here is a Cadillac which has jettisoned a 275 HP V8, FWD, & 4-spd auto for a 350 HP hybrid V6, AWD, & 6-spd trans, much more in line with that handful when equipped that way.

Sales are besides the point and certainly are not primairily predicated on powertrain layout. Look at the BMW 6-series for proof there (150 units/mnth).

I for one am only searching for consistancy. If the A8 quattro is accepted as a well-performing platform being FWD-based AWD, then we should all be open to what a FWD-based AWD MRS XTS can achieve- and not bash it dead before it rolls a foot under independant evaluation.

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CaddyXLR-V ~ >>"And why does everyone feel the need to bring up the A8. A sedan that sold..."<<

The reason the A8 is repeatedly brought up here, is that in too-numerous-to-count previous Cadillac threads, audi is frequently in the half-handful of competitors who 'show Cadillac how it's done'. Here is a Cadillac which has jettisoned a 275 HP V8, FWD, & 4-spd auto for a 350 HP hybrid V6, AWD, & 6-spd trans, much more in line with that handful when equipped that way.

Sales are besides the point and certainly are not primairily predicated on powertrain layout. Look at the BMW 6-series for proof there (150 units/mnth).

I for one am only searching for consistancy. If the A8 quattro is accepted as a well-performing platform being FWD-based AWD, then we should all be open to what a FWD-based AWD MRS XTS can achieve- and not bash it dead before it rolls a foot under independant evaluation.

I'd rather bash it dead. But I also wouldn't buy an A8 either. If I was getting a larger luxury car it would be a 5 or 7 series. Audi hasn't been able to tap into even 5% of the market, despite having an entry in the market for years. Why are we supposed to praise Cadillac for matching the bottom of the class? Maybe you would all support the CTS moving to a FWD/AWD platform too?

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I too am concerned with the willingness to bash a vehicle that maybe 4 of us have seen in person.

You weren't concerned when everyone bashed Scion before anyone saw them in person though. Or any Lexus, or any Acura. GM doesn't get any more free passes, or benefit of the doubt from some of us anymore.

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Why is this so hard to grapple with ??

The CTS is not even remotely the same sort of vehicle the XTS is. DIfferent segment/demo completely.

The CTS has nothing to do with the discussion, and no one wants it to go to FWD/AWD.

The mini is a BMW, that's FWD, that's supposedly fun to drive to the point there's no call for it to go to RWD, maybe the 1-series should move to the same platform. Same sentiment.

>>"Audi hasn't been able to tap into even 5% of the market"<<

Again- sales are immaterial. Or is the SRX getting all sorts of spec-based allocades since it's sales are so good ??

'XLR-V', you are free to hate the XTS concept and bash it dead based on pics & intitial specs.

But -based on specs-, I'd like to see even an occasional bash (from anyone) on the 295-HP hybrid (is AWD available too?) s-class, for bring the same (lesser HP) specs to the segment. That's be the degree of consistancy that would shut me up.

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Fine...it will be competitive w/ the MKS and RL. Not competitive w/ BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus.

.....and the Haldex AWD system is not anywhere as advanced as, say, Audi's torque sensing differential combined with the electronic rear differential.....which can split torque front to rear, and also side to side at the rear wheels...

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I'd rather bash it dead. But I also wouldn't buy an A8 either. If I was getting a larger luxury car it would be a 5 or 7 series. Audi hasn't been able to tap into even 5% of the market, despite having an entry in the market for years. Why are we supposed to praise Cadillac for matching the bottom of the class? Maybe you would all support the CTS moving to a FWD/AWD platform too?

Wouldn't the bottom of this class be the Infiniti Q-ship or the VW Phaeton? Just askin....

I don't care what kind of platform any car rides on as long as it delivers the results I want.

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You weren't concerned when everyone bashed Scion before anyone saw them in person though. Or any Lexus, or any Acura. GM doesn't get any more free passes, or benefit of the doubt from some of us anymore.

Well, I actually like the looks of the Scion TC, but that doesn't change the fact that what Toyota did by creating a whole separate-but-not-really brand was dumb. Same as GM was dumb for building GEO and Saturn.

The difference is that I've seen the XTS in person and none of the pictures, not even my own, do it justice. I'm not the only person at NAIAS who has said this. There are some certified GM haters out there that like the XTS once they see it in person.

I wasn't too concerned about people bashing the CR-Z because I've seen it in person and it's even worse than in pictures. At this point, people are being nice relative to what their reaction will be when they first see one in person.

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.....and the Haldex AWD system is not anywhere as advanced as, say, Audi's torque sensing differential combined with the electronic rear differential.....which can split torque front to rear, and also side to side at the rear wheels...

What everyone is also forgetting in this damn Audi-vs-AWD XTS debate is that not all all-wheel-drive systems are the same. Audi's is significantly (ok maybe too strong a word....) more advanced than the Haldex viscous coupling AWD system.....and it doesn't seem feasible that GM has expended the capital to develop a significantly new-and-improved AWD system over the Haldex.....so my assumption is the XTS AWD system will be the very same that GM has been using.

Also, even though Audis are FWD-based.....they seem to get a "pass" in the marketplace and in public perception because almost 30 years ago, they developed "Quattro" and have a long line of rally and racing victories directly attributed to that Quattro system. It is perceived as, and been developed to, enhance the handling and driving experience of Audis....not just provide a bad-weather-traction benefit. Audi is widely recognized because of its Quattro system.

In this regard.....the FWD-based Quattro system seems to be a natural to the Audi product......whereas the idea of an "AWD" XTS is a stop-gap to try to sway public perception away from a front-wheel-drive Cadillac flagship sedan.

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Well, I actually like the looks of the Scion TC, but that doesn't change the fact that what Toyota did by creating a whole separate-but-not-really brand was dumb. Same as GM was dumb for building GEO and Saturn.

The difference is that I've seen the XTS in person and none of the pictures, not even my own, do it justice. I'm not the only person at NAIAS who has said this. There are some certified GM haters out there that like the XTS once they see it in person.

I wasn't too concerned about people bashing the CR-Z because I've seen it in person and it's even worse than in pictures. At this point, people are being nice relative to what their reaction will be when they first see one in person.

For me, it doesn't matter what the XTS looks like. I wouldn't like it or consider it based on the platform alone, so seeing it in person won't change my mind. Put it on Zeta and I would consider it. I'd rather have the STS, even if the XTS ends up looking twice as good as it.

Also, both the Q and the Phaeton are out of production in the US. I'd rather have the M45 anyway.

Edited by CaddyXLR-V
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.....and the Haldex AWD system is not anywhere as advanced as, say, Audi's torque sensing differential combined with the electronic rear differential.....which can split torque front to rear, and also side to side at the rear wheels...

The Haldex can split torque front to rear and side to side.

The XWD system can transmit 100 percent of available torque to either the front or rear wheels. However, for those conditions to occur one end of the vehicle would have to lose all traction, like driving on ice for instance. During a standing start the rear wheels are put to use, without the need for any slip to occur. Then under straight-line cruising conditions, to conserve fuel and driveline wear, the torque split to the rear wheels is reduced to a level between 5 and 10 percent. Also up to 85 percent of torque can be transferred by the eLSD between to any single rear wheel if necessary. The system can adjust torque splits based on calculated conditions, such as those that indicate an aggressive lane change manoeuvre, to effectively reduce oversteer or understeer without any wheel slip occurring.

I'd rather have the M45 anyway.

Now that's just uncalled for. :angry:

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