compact cars and subcompact cars thoughts

regfootball · June 30, 2011

just kind of a loose thread to get everyone's thoughts on all the new compacts and subcompacts out there. Lots of nice new entries and now some of them have been on the road for awhile.....

here's a few random thoughts I have had.

Seen several new Focus on the road, but they seem bland and egglike to me. Sort of like Contour 2.0. Not enough definition. Still, not at all ugly...just a little underwhelming now that they have been out.

I do like the interiors, although they feel cramped. Lack of 6 speed manual bugs me.

Still like the Cruze Eco although I think the Focus has a nicer interior.

Been seeing more new Jettas now. Warming up to them on the outside. Depends on color. Saw one in red tonight and the body lines and shaping are much more dynamic with brighter colors.

Elantra will have short shelf life to me, I think. They did do a good job with it though.

Forte looks way dated and cheap already.

Haven't seen any new Civics except in the showroom and they were cheap inside. Crappy dash and cheap cheap and clautrophobic.

New Accent seems like it might be as nice or nicer than the Elantra.

Mazda3 is really becoming a joke, with its overstyling.

New Impreza pics do nothing for me.

Nissan Sentra could probably stand a reskin only and do fine as long as it came with a new Interior. New Versa looks atrocious.

Seeing many more of these cars on the road.....Fiesta is picking up steam around these parts....

the_yellow_dart · June 30, 2011

just kind of a loose thread to get everyone's thoughts on all the new compacts and subcompacts out there. Lots of nice new entries and now some of them have been on the road for awhile.....

here's a few random thoughts I have had.

Seen several new Focus on the road, but they seem bland and egglike to me. Sort of like Contour 2.0. Not enough definition. Still, not at all ugly...just a little underwhelming now that they have been out.

I do like the interiors, although they feel cramped. Lack of 6 speed manual bugs me.

Still like the Cruze Eco although I think the Focus has a nicer interior.

Been seeing more new Jettas now. Warming up to them on the outside. Depends on color. Saw one in red tonight and the body lines and shaping are much more dynamic with brighter colors.

Elantra will have short shelf life to me, I think. They did do a good job with it though.

Forte looks way dated and cheap already.

Haven't seen any new Civics except in the showroom and they were cheap inside. Crappy dash and cheap cheap and clautrophobic.

New Accent seems like it might be as nice or nicer than the Elantra.

Mazda3 is really becoming a joke, with its overstyling.

New Impreza pics do nothing for me.

Nissan Sentra could probably stand a reskin only and do fine as long as it came with a new Interior. New Versa looks atrocious.

Seeing many more of these cars on the road.....Fiesta is picking up steam around these parts....

I agree with about 95% of that.

My only point of difference from you is on the Mazda 3. The front doesn't bother me as much, and I think it's the best looking compact in profile.

regfootball · June 30, 2011

Someone visited our shop this morning with a new Focus hatch. EGG.

Robert Hall · June 30, 2011

Not my genre really, but the biggest complaint I have is on that on many of them, you can't get a manual w/ the top trim levels...a manual transmission shouldn't relegate one to a depressing stripped down base model. The Golf or Golf GTI still seems to be the gold standard to me in FWD compacts, at least it seems to be the most serious and sporty (in GTI form).

In the subcompact realm, the Mini is probably the most interesting as far as the design and the availability of a performance version (the S and JCW versions).

Edited June 30, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

Camino LS6 · June 30, 2011

In all honesty, I'll never look twice at any of them.

Saw a Fiat 500 today - if that is the future, you can count me out.

daves87rs · June 30, 2011

I like the Focus-though not as sporty as I expected....

regfootball · June 30, 2011

I had my first Prius experience today. After that, pretty much anything in the compact class is way more fun in comparison.

frogger · June 30, 2011

The leg room up front in the Focus seemed kind of cramped.

Intrepidation · June 30, 2011

For me, the top pick by a wide margin is the Focus. Easily the best looking (in either body style), sportiest, best handling )especially with the Titanium Handling Package), most sophisticated. I'll take mine as a black sedan with the Titanium Handling Package.

:wub:

Cruze is pretty anonymous looking. Not bad but not a head turner.

Elantra is very expressive but while I still like it, I like the design less than I first did.

We had a Corolla rental for a couple months at work as a backup delivery vehicle. I should do a review on it, but my impressions are as follows: Nice engine, smooth and sounds pretty good when you give it the beans, which you need to in order to get the car out of its own way. Drives ok, body roll is there and steering is devoid of feel but it drives fine as an everyday car. The ride is good. Seats were fine. Interior is almost all hard plastic, which is well textured but not that well put together and the switchgear is cheap. Transmission is very smooth. Brakes are grabby though not as bad as the Colorados. I liked how the trunk would open all the way on its own when you hit the release, very handy when your hands are full carrying brake rotors. Biggest surprise is that, despite being bigger than the Prizm, it's ancestral cousin, there's way less leg room, no wonder why SAmadei says he can't fit in today's compacts.

We have a Caliber now, newer one with the upgraded interior. Leg room is a bit better but it feels cramped too because the high center console and door panel intrude into my space and both legs are against the hard plastic. In some ways the interior is better than the Corolla. More soft touch surfaces (center arm rest and upper door panels are hard plastic in the Corolla, soft touch in the Caliber). The switchgear of the radio and HVAC are nicer quality as well, but the Corolla has nicer multifunction and cruise control stalks. They are better damped and feel higher quality. I dislike the CVT, I mean it seems to accelerate fine but I don't like the constant noise of the engine, which doesn't sound anywhere near as nice as the Toyota. The quality ride isn't bad but not as good as the Corolla. Handling seemed about the same, steering is maybe a bit more precise. Overall it seems fine and, as with the Toyota, I'd choose it over the trucks all day long, but I don't desire to own either of them.

SAmadei · June 30, 2011

With the exception of the Forte coupe, I actually like GEM's LSV offerings better than most of these.

One calls the Forte outdated... maybe, I prefer to call it non-Future-Shock.

Intrepidation · June 30, 2011

I forgot about the Forte couple. I actually really like it. Looks good in person. Sporty and kind of aggressive.

SAmadei · June 30, 2011

We had a Corolla rental for a couple months at work as a backup delivery vehicle. I should do a review on it, but my impressions are as follows: Nice engine, smooth and sounds pretty good when you give it the beans, which you need to in order to get the car out of its own way. Drives ok, body roll is there and steering is devoid of feel but it drives fine as an everyday car. The ride is good. Seats were fine. Interior is almost all hard plastic, which is well textured but not that well put together and the switchgear is cheap. Transmission is very smooth. Brakes are grabby though not as bad as the Colorados. I liked how the trunk would open all the way on its own when you hit the release, very handy when your hands are full carrying brake rotors. Biggest surprise is that, despite being bigger than the Prizm, it's ancestral cousin, there's way less leg room, no wonder why SAmadei says he can't fit in today's compacts.

Surprisingly, the Corolla is one of the lesser compact evils, as it does still have head room... barely... and hence I can actually just barely drive my GF's Corolla. But I usually try to drive my car, if I can. My review of her older Corolla would be almost dead on to your review. Its an OK everyday car... with nothing special about it... and to get the most out of it in aggressive traffic, you have to drive like you hate it. It makes a decent city car... but now she has parking, so that factor is not as important. She bought it over, say, the Mini due to its rear seat. Unfortunately, nobody ever uses the tiny rear seat, as even the tiny garbage can gets crushed behind us when we put the front seats back.

But you last statement is something that baffles me... why with better engineering, technology and experience do larger cars have smaller interiors than their predecessors? It doesn't make sense.

I've never driven a Prizm... but I drove the Corolla-based Nova. They were way better than the current Corollas for internal space. Unfortunately, the current Corolla kinda takes most of the other catagories over the ~'88 Novas.

Speaking of compacts... IMHO, the best one wasn't mentioned... Mini Cooper. Still the best after almost 10 years.

Edited June 30, 2011 by SAmadei

Satty · June 30, 2011

The Cooper and 500 and nothing else matters, although the 1-Series is starting to grow on me.

z28luvr01 · June 30, 2011

You like the 500 too? It's an interesting little bugger, with a face only a mother could love.

I'd be interested in giving a 500 Sport a test drive.

Satty · June 30, 2011

Love the 500. I'm looking forward to a drive, I really hope its a grin-inducing as the Cooper.

For the rest of the class, I will admit the Cruze is a decent ride and the Focus and Fiesta are pretty neat looking.

Robert Hall · June 30, 2011

I still haven't seen a 500 yet..

SAmadei · June 30, 2011

My opinion of the 500 is reserved until I sit in one. If Clarkson can fit, I think I may be able to stomach it.

Robert Hall · June 30, 2011

My opinion of the 500 is reserved until I sit in one. If Clarkson can fit, I think I may be able to stomach it.

You could probably fit in the 500C with the top down, the driver's seat removed and sitting in the backseat...

SAmadei · July 1, 2011

My opinion of the 500 is reserved until I sit in one. If Clarkson can fit, I think I may be able to stomach it.

You could probably fit in the 500C with the top down, the driver's seat removed and sitting in the backseat...

LOL, probably. Don't make me get my tools out.

Seriously, the 500 has a leg up simply because its not a shrunken sedan. Coupe makes a big difference in comfort, and I think the seats go back a extra notch or two.

Camino LS6 · July 1, 2011

The Cooper and 500 and nothing else matters, although the 1-Series is starting to grow on me.

I do still respect the Mini.

frogger · July 1, 2011

A bud of mine just got back from Europe where his rental was a stick shift 2 cylinder turbo Fiat 500, now he is working on buying one here.

bobo · July 1, 2011

I found the new Elantra to be a decent drive, though it didn't blow me away. I don't care for the new Focus with the mediocre interior and odd proportions. I like the Fiesta, but it needs about 10 or 15 more hp. I'm surprised at how well the Cruz is selling considering the price, though it is a high quality piece. The Forte's cheap interior ruins the vehicle. Haven't tried out the new Civic yet. The last one wasn't particularly special, and the new one seems to be a rehash. I'm looking forward to see the new Accent and Rio.

Intrepidation · July 1, 2011

But you last statement is something that baffles me... why with better engineering, technology and experience do larger cars have smaller interiors than their predecessors? It doesn't make sense.

I've never driven a Prizm... but I drove the Corolla-based Nova. They were way better than the current Corollas for internal space. Unfortunately, the current Corolla kinda takes most of the other catagories over the ~'88 Novas.

I dunno, I can only guess that because the crash structure is stronger but takes up more space. I also wonder if has something to do with rear seat legroom numbers. Those front seats could go further back if the tracks were longer, plenty of space to do so, but then it would impose on the nonexistent rear passengers and Toyota wouldn't be able to claim as much rear passenger room...because when you buy an economy you plan to haul lots of people with it all the time.

Now as for the Caliber another thing I don't like is how high the door sill is. I've found myself bumping my feet into it while getting it out a few times.

ocnblu · July 1, 2011

How much longer does the doctor say you have to wear those shoes? :smilewide:

pow · July 2, 2011

I've driven the new Civic. Despite the underwhelming looks and specs, it is nice in person and a very refined drive. Roomy, plush interior. Not that engaging on the road, though; it's increasingly Corolla-like in its practicality and manners.

The Focus is nice but really only desirable in Titanium trim with the five-spoke 18s that make it less egg-like. But that model isn't available with a manual, and I hear the twin-clutch automatic is kinda clunky.

Really, if I were shopping in this segment, I'd either pony up the cash and get something desirable that maintains its value (GTI, Golf TDI, or MINI), or I'd go for whatever deals are out there. The Focus, Cruze, Civic, and 3 are all comparable in most respects, and they inevitably will all have special incentives and lease deals going on. The Focus is a better car than the Cruze, but nowhere near worth the current $100/mo lease differential.

Edited July 2, 2011 by pow

ocnblu · July 2, 2011

I think it's a good move on Chevy's part to make a manual transmission available on the higher Cruze trim levels for 2012.

I am very happy with my manual, and after reading all the complaints about the Fiesta manumatic, I am convinced Ford has to do something to fix this issue with the Fiesta and Focus.

Ford seems to have spent money on things with the Focus that are out of Sync with what people want. Wheel covers that are cheap looking on the S and SE, and front-only electric windows on the S are prolly rubbing ppl the wrong way, especially when they see the MSRP.

Edited July 2, 2011 by ocnblu

Z-06 · July 2, 2011

I drove the 500. Fun car and very good visibility. In current guise I would pick the Mini, but the saleslady told me that the Abarth with 150 odd hp is coming in August and the dealership has started taking orders for it. That will change the game.

I like how 500's manual take rate is more than the automatic. People will buy manual if the companies make them desirable.

Satty · July 4, 2011

Somehow I've forgotten about the C30. Still a cool looking car.

ocnblu · July 4, 2011

I liked the first C30 better, pre-MCE. The new Volvo look hasn't bitten me in the right place yet.

Dsuupr · July 5, 2011

I picked the Cruze because it felt the most grown up and upgraded of those mentioned.

The key reasons I picked the Cruze over the Focus include:

1. The Focus looks great, if you are 16 to 21, but I don't act like a child, so I don't want to look like one either.

2. I found the Focus dash to be cheap looking in mid-level form.

3. I am not a fan of Microsoft so I wasn't about to waste extra money on Sync nor did I want to deal with rebooting my stereo/climate control/etc. The base Cruze stereo and OnStar do everything that Sync does, without the voice activated command and the Microsoft issues.

4. Sound suppression is key to me enjoying a car, and no one beats the Cruze, even in Eco form.

5. Gas mileage for a Focus was not so great compared to the Eco model. Add to that the 6 speed manual and well, how can one go wrong.

6. I know people say the Focus "handles great", but the reality is, the Cruze is a nicer ride and when put to the test, it keeps up with the Focus on almost all metrics. Why give up a compliant comfortable ride just because you think bouncing around more will help it be better on the corners? Besides, 99% of my driving is on straight highways and not the Nürburgring.

7. The lower air dam on the Focus reminds me of something a child (see earlier comment), would want on their car (I hate it on the VW & Porsche SUVs just as much).

8. To get a manual transmission on a Focus, you have to downgrade the interior and rims, which makes the car more expensive when you equip them the same.

9. Telematics (OnStar like product) is not standard or even available on the Focus.

10. Safety is key since I have two daughters who will eventually get the car. The Cruze has received a perfect crash score rating and includes 10 airbags. Nothing has come close in the segment, especially when you add in Onstar.

11. The trunk is larger on the Cruze (take note of #10, meaning all the extra space I can get I need when traveling).

12. And most importantly, our local Ford dealer is typical old school dealer, offering poor service with nasty management. As you all know, the owner of the Chevy dealer has become a personal friend because of the great service offered the first time I walked in the door. He makes a point of saying "thank you" to every customer that buys a car from the dealership and if you have a problem, he gets right in the middle to solve it.

I understand why people would choose the Focus over the Cruze and to them I say thank you for choosing American owned/made. As for me, I love my Cruze and I find it to be the perfect fit.

ocnblu · July 5, 2011

You've laid out an excellent case for the best-selling car in the USA for June, 2011.

regfootball · July 8, 2011

Somehow I've forgotten about the C30. Still a cool looking car.

c30 is a nice car, at least whenever volvo gets around to putting a dash in the car that doesn't look so sparse and inexpensive

regfootball · July 8, 2011

tons of validity to all you list. cruze eco in particular is a real gem. i wish chevy could get their act together on an auto version of the eco that can really mash the mpg like the stick.

ford has overshot on purpose the mark and have remade the focus into a hipster ride and gone way too far with the yet to be simplified tech.

i actually really do love the focus but my big gripes about it are (I still need to drive it so these are just from other impressions)

-cabin claustrophobia and lack of space

-bland styling sometimes (including the egglike hatchback), lack of definition that the Cruze has

-tech overload

-price

-no 6 speed manual

-dual clutch tranny sounds like its not figured out yet (maybe a traditional 8 sp auto is on the way)

been seeing several new elantras, jettas, and civics now. Still see a few Cruze, see a lot of Focus.

i've actually warmed to the new civic's body shape now....it looks sleeker. still dull, but it is cleaned up over last version (interior still sucks ass).

every instance i've seen the new jetta now it looks bland except for the one time i saw it in bright red. It's an all new design and it says 'tonight we're gonna party like its 1999'. shame.

i think the elantra still is not on the buyers' radar yet. i think once a few already in circulation get noticed plus a more overt ad campaign kicks in + people web shopping, I think the Elantra will start to bust the doors open, but i also think it will take more sales from toyota and honda than anything.

I picked the Cruze because it felt the most grown up and upgraded of those mentioned.

The key reasons I picked the Cruze over the Focus include:

1. The Focus looks great, if you are 16 to 21, but I don't act like a child, so I don't want to look like one either.

2. I found the Focus dash to be cheap looking in mid-level form.

3. I am not a fan of Microsoft so I wasn't about to waste extra money on Sync nor did I want to deal with rebooting my stereo/climate control/etc. The base Cruze stereo and OnStar do everything that Sync does, without the voice activated command and the Microsoft issues.

4. Sound suppression is key to me enjoying a car, and no one beats the Cruze, even in Eco form.

5. Gas mileage for a Focus was not so great compared to the Eco model. Add to that the 6 speed manual and well, how can one go wrong.

6. I know people say the Focus "handles great", but the reality is, the Cruze is a nicer ride and when put to the test, it keeps up with the Focus on almost all metrics. Why give up a compliant comfortable ride just because you think bouncing around more will help it be better on the corners? Besides, 99% of my driving is on straight highways and not the Nürburgring.

7. The lower air dam on the Focus reminds me of something a child (see earlier comment), would want on their car (I hate it on the VW & Porsche SUVs just as much).

8. To get a manual transmission on a Focus, you have to downgrade the interior and rims, which makes the car more expensive when you equip them the same.

9. Telematics (OnStar like product) is not standard or even available on the Focus.

10. Safety is key since I have two daughters who will eventually get the car. The Cruze has received a perfect crash score rating and includes 10 airbags. Nothing has come close in the segment, especially when you add in Onstar.

11. The trunk is larger on the Cruze (take note of #10, meaning all the extra space I can get I need when traveling).

12. And most importantly, our local Ford dealer is typical old school dealer, offering poor service with nasty management. As you all know, the owner of the Chevy dealer has become a personal friend because of the great service offered the first time I walked in the door. He makes a point of saying "thank you" to every customer that buys a car from the dealership and if you have a problem, he gets right in the middle to solve it.

I understand why people would choose the Focus over the Cruze and to them I say thank you for choosing American owned/made. As for me, I love my Cruze and I find it to be the perfect fit.

RjION · July 9, 2011

Hp to weight at the price I'll take the Forte 5dr SX with 173hp dressed in white.

z28luvr01 · July 9, 2011

I drove the 500. Fun car and very good visibility. In current guise I would pick the Mini, but the saleslady told me that the Abarth with 150 odd hp is coming in August and the dealership has started taking orders for it. That will change the game.

I like how 500's manual take rate is more than the automatic. People will buy manual if the companies make them desirable.

ocnblu · July 9, 2011

NEATO

regfootball · July 17, 2011

new elantra is available in Canada equipped as a GLS manual with what appears to be cloth heated front and rear seats, bluetooth, moonroof............

grrrrrrrrrr

Edited July 17, 2011 by regfootball

RjION · July 17, 2011

No need for heated seats here. In fact in a daily driver I have zero use for leather and sunroofs.

Robert Hall · July 17, 2011

No need for heated seats here. In fact in a daily driver I have zero use for leather and sunroofs.

Sunroofs are great here in the winter. I have heated leather seats, but haven't used the heat since I moved here.

ocnblu · July 17, 2011

If I lived in Feenix, I'd be constantly trying to turn them off.

Robert Hall · July 17, 2011

If I lived in Feenix, I'd be constantly trying to turn them off.

I've found myself occasionally driving along w/ the A/C at max blasting w/ the seat heater on..wondering why my butt was warm. The seat heater buttons are too easy to hit by accident.

regfootball · August 7, 2011

had my first op. today to sit in the cabin of a focus for an extended period of time. was at the sister store writing paper and had some lag time.....i am sold on the focus.....

rear seat is tight, like the cruze. sort of a draw except for me a little easier getting out. doesn't matter, in this segment not a lot of passengers. The focus interior is VERY intimate, but well done. I think the cruze is well done too, but maybe just a bit short.

it still BUGS ME that the focus only has a 5 speed manual, and from what i am told by my brothers, that new dual clutch ford is not all peaches and cream yet. the manual is the one to get so far.

i was borderline sedan vs. hatch on the focus but now seeing the useful trunk on the focus i think the hatch is alright. overall the car feels confining. but i think perhaps its not a deal breaker.

I need to drive one....

Chris_Doane · August 7, 2011

ocnblu · August 7, 2011

Still reminds me of a Suzuki Reno from that angle, I'm afraid.

Although it is a nice improvement over current.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ocnblu

regfootball · August 7, 2011

Still reminds me of a Suzuki Reno from that angle, I'm afraid.

Although it is a nice improvement over current.

Reno is a bludgeon on thy Wasooki honor........don't swear with those Daewoos........

New Rio is nice. More stylish than the Forte.

Just a little off topic....I wonder what kind of mpg a 2.0 ecoboost edge with a 6 speed manual would get.....

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