Random Thoughts Thread

[David]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

S-class coupe and convertible are dying after this year to clear room for a new SL that is supposedly a 2+2 set up and engineered entirely by AMG.  It will have I-6 and V8 with hybrid power on all.

Updated C5, but Chevy had C6.  And the Corvette was faster than the XLR.  It would be like today Cadillac making a C7 based sports car with 400 hp and charging $85k when a C8 with 500 hp is $60k (to start) and wondering why the Cadillac doesn’t sell.

WRONG, AMG is Going 4 Banger Hybrid and dumping V8. Statement from Deimler as well as long time AMG V8 user Aston Martin that is going inhouse V6 Hybrid.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/32491/aston-martin-ditching-amg-v-8s-for-in-house-hybrid-v-6s-ceo-confirms

https://paultan.org/2020/03/09/aston-martin-to-replace-amg-v8-with-new-hybrid-v6/

One has to wonder what people will think when Aston Martin is a Performance V6 Hybrid over AMG Performance 4 Banger Hybrid. Guess AMG is no longer the leader in performance?

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

S-class coupe and convertible are dying after this year to clear room for a new SL that is supposedly a 2+2 set up and engineered entirely by AMG.  It will have I-6 and V8 with hybrid power on all.

Updated C5, but Chevy had C6.  And the Corvette was faster than the XLR.  It would be like today Cadillac making a C7 based sports car with 400 hp and charging $85k when a C8 with 500 hp is $60k (to start) and wondering why the Cadillac doesn’t sell.

WRONG

Chevy got the C6 a WHOLE YEAR LATER...

And yes, the Corvette is faster.  It will ALWAYS be faster.  Its FASTER than Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches all costing double and triple the price...

And the Corvette will ALWAYS BE a Chevrolet.

The Corvette is NOT GM's or Cadillac's halo car.  Its Chevrolet's.

Cadillac is NOT a PERFORMANCE brand. Well...NOW it is. Using the CHEVROLET SMALL BLOCK.

Its NOT a negative. It just is the way that it is.

And Cadillac DOES sell.

Cadillac sells just about MORE LUXURY vehicles than Mercedes sells LUXURY vehicles...

Ive done this exercise with you before...

Mercedes is a full blown, complete line maker of automobiles.

Mercedes sells just as MANY Chevrolet level autos as Chevy does... Same market niches too. 

Its just that Mercedes is the COMPLETE brand.

Chevrolet is a brand

Cadillac is a brand

General Motors is NOT a brand.

Its just a multinational corporation OWNING SEVERAL AUTOMOTIVE brands...

DAIMLER AG is somewhat that GM equivalent...

The thing is, Mercedes the BRAND plays in the econobox market as well as the luxury market under the SAME BRAND

Chevrolet and Cadillac are NOT the same brand. NOT the same MOTOR company...

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

WRONG, AMG is Going 4 Banger Hybrid and dumping V8. Statement from Deimler as well as long time AMG V8 user Aston Martin that is going inhouse V6 Hybrid.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/32491/aston-martin-ditching-amg-v-8s-for-in-house-hybrid-v-6s-ceo-confirms

https://paultan.org/2020/03/09/aston-martin-to-replace-amg-v8-with-new-hybrid-v6/

One has to wonder what people will think when Aston Martin is a Performance V6 Hybrid over AMG Performance 4 Banger Hybrid. Guess AMG is no longer the leader in performance?

Aston Martin just hired Tobias Moers to be their CEO.  Aston Martin also has no money so I don’t know how they’ll afford to come up with a bespoke V6 hybrid of their own.  Maybe they will or maybe Moers will just buy engines from AMG because that is what he knows.

 

AMG isn’t getting rid of the V8, the SL will have it and that car has a long production run, probably gets them to 2030 before they kill the V8.  AMG already has a 4 and a hybrid 4 is coming.  There are lots of ways to get power and they have a lot of sized vehicles.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

WRONG

Chevy got the C6 a WHOLE YEAR LATER...

And yes, the Corvette is faster.  It will ALWAYS be faster.  Its FASTER than Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches all costing double and triple the price...

And the Corvette will ALWAYS BE a Chevrolet.

The Corvette is NOT GM's or Cadillac's halo car.  Its Chevrolet's.

Cadillac is NOT a PERFORMANCE brand. Well...NOW it is. Using the CHEVROLET SMALL BLOCK.

Its NOT a negative. It just is the way that it is.

And Cadillac DOES sell.

Cadillac sells just about MORE LUXURY vehicles than Mercedes sells LUXURY vehicles...

Ive done this exercise with you before...

Mercedes is a full blown, complete line maker of automobiles.

Mercedes sells just as MANY Chevrolet level autos as Chevy does... Same market niches too. 

Its just that Mercedes is the COMPLETE brand.

Chevrolet is a brand

Cadillac is a brand

General Motors is NOT a brand.

Its just a multinational corporation OWNING SEVERAL AUTOMOTIVE brands...

DAIMLER AG is somewhat that GM equivalent...

The thing is, Mercedes the BRAND plays in the econobox market as well as the luxury market under the SAME BRAND

Chevrolet and Cadillac are NOT the same brand. NOT the same MOTOR company...

 

A year later but XLR was on market for 5-6 years.  In 2009 they were working with a 1997 Corvette chassis.  
 

Point is Cadillac is greater than Chevrolet.  A Cadillac sports car should be greater than a Chevrolet sports car.   C8 starts at $60k, a Cadillac mid-engine car can start at $160k like an Audi R8 or the Acura NSX.  So a whole of of performance options open up.

[oldshurst442]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A year later but XLR was on market for 5-6 years.  In 2009 they were working with a 1997 Corvette chassis.  

Stop the idiocy dude.

THE XLR WAS ON A C6 LIGHT PLATFORM...

AND IT DONT MATTER...  STOP PHOQUING TROLLING!!!

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Point is Cadillac is greater than Chevrolet.

THE POINT IS...

CADILLAC IS CADILLAC

CHEVROLET IS CHEVROLET

CORVETTE IS CORVETTE

IT DONT PHOQUING MATTER WHERE CORVETTE FITS IN THE GENERAL MOTORS HIERARCHY

CORVETTE IS A CHEVROLET

CADILLAC DOES NOT NEED A CORVETTE, SLS, AMG-ONE, 812 SUPERFAST, COUNTACH, COMPETITIOR AND EVENTUAL PERFORMANCE DOMINATOR ORIENTED CAR IN THIS REALM TO SELL VEHICLES

MERCEDES BENZ NEEDS THAT...FOR THEIR HIGHER END CARS TO HELP SELL THEIR LOWER END CARS

ALL CADILLAC NEEDS IS TO BE ITSELF.  

STOP THE STUPIDITY

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by oldshurst442

[frogger]

Cadillac just needs to be more interesting in general aside from the Escalade, everything else seems so unambitious, content to blend in, especially their interiors and CUVs.  Forget about having a halo performance car at this point.  I don't see the NSX doing anything great for Acura..

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

A Corvette is the COMPLETE opposite of what Cadillac, high end M-B, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls Royce etc is all about. 

All those high end, posh brands I mentioned all cater to the folk that want the finer things in life. That could afford the finer things in life.  That want something unique and rare and that almost nobody else has got. All those high end brands in turn try to engineer and produce the best of the best to attract the very few that can afford those brand's products.

The ONLY thing the Corvette has in common with that is, that the Corvette offers best of the best performance. And at a price. Low price.  The high end stuff also comes at a price. High price. 

I repeat. The high end stuff is sold at high end prices. The Corvette is engineered to a price point. A price point well BENEATH of those high end stuff and sold well beneath those high end prices.

Those high end products are also limited in numbers. Mostly produced by hand and perosnalized to every inch of the finer details. 

The Corvette is mass produced. Machines and robots for the most part produce it.  Many IMPERFECTIONS exist on the Covette as where the other high end products, imperfections are hard to come by... because the owners of those cars PAY a PREMIUM and EXPECT perfection. 

Corvette's target market really dont care about any squeaks and rattles and if the steering wheel is the exact same one as a Chevy Malibu. (C6)  Actually, they wear THAT as a badge of honour as MOST Corvette owners are proud that the Corvette is a CHEVROLET.  And want to point the middle finger to the folks that drive high priced sports cars...

The high end stuff is usually bespoke to that particualr model. The Corvette, BECAUSE its a CHEVROLET has parts bin economies built into it, so that the PRICE is low low low as low as can be because the performance technology is really best of the best...

The high end stuff is really made for the those 1%ers. Those white gloved, snooty, entitled and cuddled folk that look down upon the working guy but NEED the working guy to maintain their riches...

The Corvette is made for the blue collar guy.  The very guy that works for that white gloved, snooty, entitled and cuddled folk that look down upon the working guy but NEED the working guy to maintain his riches...   Or for the self made man that made his money getting his hands dirty.   

Because since the 1980s, new money has come to be, those lines are blurred between high end stuff and Corvettes with Ferraris and Lambos producing and selling lower priced cars, but higher, way higher than Corvette to cater to the guy that made millions on 4-5 restaurants he bought and managed with family and friends or in the .com era  where those guys in the beginning were mere millionnaires and over time got to be billionnaires and now could buy that million dollar plus  limited run Ferrari.  Yeah...kinda like the AMG-ONE.    

The Corvette is a performance car that gives a middle finger to those types of cars and owners...

Yes...THAT is why a Corvette was, is and will continue to BE a Chevrolet.   

Cadillac does not NEED a sports car to peddle to the new money folk or the old money folk. 

What Cadillac needs is a vehicle, that caters to the arrogance of those types of owners...

And THAT could mean many things...

And THAT is the beauty of Cadillac.

Cadillac's image was and still is of brash, arrogantly loud styled vehicles.  And THAT could be anything...

And THAT is why Corvette is Corvette

Chevrolet is Chevrolet

Cadillac is Cadillac

and Corvette shall always be a Chevrolet. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by oldshurst442

[David]

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

The ONLY thing the Corvette has in common with that is, that the Corvette offers best of the best performance. And at a price. Low price.  The high end stuff also comes at a price. High price. 

 

Yes...THAT is why a Corvette was, is and will continue to BE a Chevrolet.   

Cadillac does not NEED a sports car to peddle to the new money folk or the old money folk. 

What Cadillac needs is a vehicle, that caters to the arrogance of those types of owners...

And THAT could mean many things...

And THAT is the beauty of Cadillac.

Cadillac's image was and still is of brash, arrogantly loud styled vehicles.  And THAT could be anything...

And THAT is why Corvette is Corvette

Chevrolet is Chevrolet

Cadillac is Cadillac

and Corvette shall always be a Chevrolet. 

 

 

 

 

 

First off, a Corvette is not the best of the best performance, there are dozens of faster cars on market.  Performance per dollar is fantastic and for years has been.

Secondly, obviously a Corvette is a Chevrolet and always should be.  I have often said there should be a V6 (probably turbo) Corvette that even comes in at a lower price point to broaden appeal. 

But there are people that want more than a Corvette, spend more than what a Corvette costs, or won't give Chevrolet the time of day solely on brand image or dealership experience.  This is where Cadillac can come in.  Now maybe GM ran the numbers and just doesn't see a business case or market demand for a Cadillac supercar and that's fine.  When you look at R8 and NSX sales they are pretty much nothing, so I can see Cadillac not going there because it would probably be a money loser.

So if not a sports car, what does Cadillac build outside of the Escalade that brings people in?  I think super SUV has more profit potential.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

First off, a Corvette is not the best of the best performance

Yes it is

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

there are dozens of faster cars on market.

When the  high performance versions of Corvettes first comes out, not the base ones, Vettes usually lead the pack only for Ferrari and Porsche to counter back....   Again...keeping in kind that the Corvette, even the high performance versions, still priced waaaaay below the others...     We got a new level of sports car called the hypercar to contend with, that would be the AMG-One or Laferrari...   but again, the Corvette has an answer to that...   but it aint out yet.  It will 3-4 years from now.

But Ill just repost what I said above because you got deaf ears.  Hypercars are at and above 1 million dollars. The AMG-One is 2 point something million dollars.    The Zora Hybrid electric  with close to 1000 HP will be at 150 000 dollars...  Porsche 911 money...

A Corvette is the COMPLETE opposite of what Cadillac, high end M-B, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls Royce etc is all about. 

All those high end, posh brands I mentioned all cater to the folk that want the finer things in life. That could afford the finer things in life.  That want something unique and rare and that almost nobody else has got. All those high end brands in turn try to engineer and produce the best of the best to attract the very few that can afford those brand's products.

The ONLY thing the Corvette has in common with that is, that the Corvette offers best of the best performance. And at a price. Low price.  The high end stuff also comes at a price. High price. 

I repeat. The high end stuff is sold at high end prices. The Corvette is engineered to a price point. A price point well BENEATH of those high end stuff and sold well beneath those high end prices.

Those high end products are also limited in numbers. Mostly produced by hand and perosnalized to every inch of the finer details. 

The Corvette is mass produced. Machines and robots for the most part produce it.  Many IMPERFECTIONS exist on the Covette as where the other high end products, imperfections are hard to come by... because the owners of those cars PAY a PREMIUM and EXPECT perfection. 

Corvette's target market really dont care about any squeaks and rattles and if the steering wheel is the exact same one as a Chevy Malibu. (C6)  Actually, they wear THAT as a badge of honour as MOST Corvette owners are proud that the Corvette is a CHEVROLET.  And want to point the middle finger to the folks that drive high priced sports cars...

The high end stuff is usually bespoke to that particualr model. The Corvette, BECAUSE its a CHEVROLET has parts bin economies built into it, so that the PRICE is low low low as low as can be because the performance technology is really best of the best...

The high end stuff is really made for the those 1%ers. Those white gloved, snooty, entitled and cuddled folk that look down upon the working guy but NEED the working guy to maintain their riches...

The Corvette is made for the blue collar guy.  The very guy that works for that white gloved, snooty, entitled and cuddled folk that look down upon the working guy but NEED the working guy to maintain his riches...   Or for the self made man that made his money getting his hands dirty.   

Because since the 1980s, new money has come to be, those lines are blurred between high end stuff and Corvettes with Ferraris and Lambos producing and selling lower priced cars, but higher, way higher than Corvette to cater to the guy that made millions on 4-5 restaurants he bought and managed with family and friends or in the .com era  where those guys in the beginning were mere millionnaires and over time got to be billionnaires and now could buy that million dollar plus  limited run Ferrari.  Yeah...kinda like the AMG-ONE.    

The Corvette is a performance car that gives a middle finger to those types of cars and owners...

Yes...THAT is why a Corvette was, is and will continue to BE a Chevrolet.   

Cadillac does not NEED a sports car to peddle to the new money folk or the old money folk. 

What Cadillac needs is a vehicle, that caters to the arrogance of those types of owners...

And THAT could mean many things...

And THAT is the beauty of Cadillac.

Cadillac's image was and still is of brash, arrogantly loud styled vehicles.  And THAT could be anything...

And THAT is why Corvette is Corvette

Chevrolet is Chevrolet

Cadillac is Cadillac

and Corvette shall always be a Chevrolet. 

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But there are people that want more than a Corvette, spend more than what a Corvette costs, or won't give Chevrolet the time of day solely on brand image or dealership experience.

 With the C6 and then the C7, sure, people wanted MORE from the Corvette.   NON-TRADITIONAL Corvette owners...

That is why with the C8, time was right to go ME.

Performance was at its limits with 750 HP front engine RWD... Actually, the C6 Corvette with 'only' 650 HP and 638 ft lbs torque was the limit with front engine RWD configuration.   The C7 has all kinds of voodoo airflow technology and high tech tire engineering to keep the car stable and to squeeze the most performance out of it.  

With the C8, this ME config now gets to explore what Corvette engineers could do AND it also introduces the car to new target markets...   but the Corvette STILL remains...my long ass rant as definition because you really have deaf ears...

A Corvette is the COMPLETE opposite of what Cadillac, high end M-B, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls Royce etc is all about. 

All those high end, posh brands I mentioned all cater to the folk that want the finer things in life. That could afford the finer things in life.  That want something unique and rare and that almost nobody else has got. All those high end brands in turn try to engineer and produce the best of the best to attract the very few that can afford those brand's products.

The ONLY thing the Corvette has in common with that is, that the Corvette offers best of the best performance. And at a price. Low price.  The high end stuff also comes at a price. High price. 

I repeat. The high end stuff is sold at high end prices. The Corvette is engineered to a price point. A price point well BENEATH of those high end stuff and sold well beneath those high end prices.

Those high end products are also limited in numbers. Mostly produced by hand and perosnalized to every inch of the finer details. 

The Corvette is mass produced. Machines and robots for the most part produce it.  Many IMPERFECTIONS exist on the Covette as where the other high end products, imperfections are hard to come by... because the owners of those cars PAY a PREMIUM and EXPECT perfection. 

Corvette's target market really dont care about any squeaks and rattles and if the steering wheel is the exact same one as a Chevy Malibu. (C6)  Actually, they wear THAT as a badge of honour as MOST Corvette owners are proud that the Corvette is a CHEVROLET.  And want to point the middle finger to the folks that drive high priced sports cars...

The high end stuff is usually bespoke to that particualr model. The Corvette, BECAUSE its a CHEVROLET has parts bin economies built into it, so that the PRICE is low low low as low as can be because the performance technology is really best of the best...

The high end stuff is really made for the those 1%ers. Those white gloved, snooty, entitled and cuddled folk that look down upon the working guy but NEED the working guy to maintain their riches...

The Corvette is made for the blue collar guy.  The very guy that works for that white gloved, snooty, entitled and cuddled folk that look down upon the working guy but NEED the working guy to maintain his riches...   Or for the self made man that made his money getting his hands dirty.   

Because since the 1980s, new money has come to be, those lines are blurred between high end stuff and Corvettes with Ferraris and Lambos producing and selling lower priced cars, but higher, way higher than Corvette to cater to the guy that made millions on 4-5 restaurants he bought and managed with family and friends or in the .com era  where those guys in the beginning were mere millionnaires and over time got to be billionnaires and now could buy that million dollar plus  limited run Ferrari.  Yeah...kinda like the AMG-ONE.    

The Corvette is a performance car that gives a middle finger to those types of cars and owners...

Yes...THAT is why a Corvette was, is and will continue to BE a Chevrolet.   

Cadillac does not NEED a sports car to peddle to the new money folk or the old money folk. 

What Cadillac needs is a vehicle, that caters to the arrogance of those types of owners...

And THAT could mean many things...

And THAT is the beauty of Cadillac.

Cadillac's image was and still is of brash, arrogantly loud styled vehicles.  And THAT could be anything...

And THAT is why Corvette is Corvette

Chevrolet is Chevrolet

Cadillac is Cadillac

and Corvette shall always be a Chevrolet. 

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Now maybe GM ran the numbers and just doesn't see a business case or market demand for a Cadillac supercar and that's fine.  When you look at R8 and NSX sales they are pretty much nothing, so I can see Cadillac not going there because it would probably be a money loser.

 

It be a money loser for Cadillac to do a supercar/hypercar based on a Vette or bespoke like a Cien concept.. Whether YOU like it or not, the Corvette is best of the best. No matter WHAT price point we are talking about.  BECAUSE it is engineered to a low price point, the Vette engineers sacrifice some stuff on it.  But...with the C8 we see that some of those constraints have been loosened...   Honestly, Id love to see Corvette engineers do to a Corvette program with a budget that AMG-One had with AMG engineers.   Ill say it again, the Zora Hybrid C8 to come will EQUAL if NOT surpass what the AMG-ONE will do... And even if...EVEN IF it does not and just misses the mark just a tad, which it might, Ill admit...remember...AMG-ONE is 2 point something million dollars. The Zora will be at 150 000 dollars...   A FRACTION of that price tag.  WITH TTHE SAME TECHNOLOGY.   Maybe a tad less use of exotic weight saving materials materials on the outside and maybe a tad less extravagant materials on the inside to cuddle the owner...   BIG DEAL  like I said...A CORVETTE IS A HUGE MIDDLE FINGER TO POSH, SNOOTY BITCHES THAT LOOK DOWN ON THE VETTE!!! 

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So if not a sports car, what does Cadillac build outside of the Escalade that brings people in?  I think super SUV has more profit potential.

Sure...

Like I said...THAT could mean ANYTHING.

It COULD be a Cien.

But really no.  

Its more of a Sixteen, Ciel, Elmiraj or some sort of wacky, more arrogant type of SUV that even outdoes the Escalade. Or the Escalade itself 'escalated' to a higher level...  with cigar humidor interiors and whiskey holding cabinets and PHOQUE YOU IM A RICH AS$&HOL3  written all over the exterior design. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 

AMG isn’t getting rid of the V8, the SL will have it and that car has a long production run, probably gets them to 2030 before they kill the V8.  AMG already has a 4 and a hybrid 4 is coming.  There are lots of ways to get power and they have a lot of sized vehicles.

They are getting rid of the V8 in certain areas...  Dont play stupid.

Im afraid the SL will not even survive 2021 the way things are going let alone 2030.  And yes, maybe with Covid generation economies, the C8 will eat into its market share....

Whether YOU like it or not, the C8 is that much of a game changer regardless if it is a Chevy or not...  It a short little while, the 2021 Z06 will be available for owners to buy.  OK...with this Covid era economy, the Z06 will be a 2022 model.  The thing is, Chevrolet is going all out with the C8 Vette and the C8 vette itself is selling like hotcakes. With NEW market share that NEW consumers are buying into....regardless of a Chevy nameplate...

And yes...4 cylinder outputs are out of this world.

Its still prestigious to have a V8 under the hood. More so now  than ever.  Dont try to spin the failures of M-B in your favour...

And...last bit NOT least

AMG does NOT have lots of sized of vehicles.  Mercedes has that.

But if the economy goes even MORE south, AMG will NOT have ANY buyers as even the stinkin' rich will cut back with unnecessary purchases.  And even THEY will be looking for bargains. EVERYBODY LOVES bargains.  And like I said above, the C8 Corvette WILL quest their thirst for something new and shiny, that goes crazy fast and has "that look" that cars in this league demand... 

 

 

 

 

[USA-1]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Problem was it was a C5 chassis and the C6 came out a year later, also the XLR had 320 hp to the C6’s 400 hp and the XLR interior was not that good for Mercedes-Jaguar price class they were playing in.   If the XLR was on the  C6 chassis with more power and more luxury and quality, then they would have been on to something.

As I said Audi makes an SUV that is 12 seconds off the C8 on a 7:30 time, so they are close.  All I said was Cadillac had to get close to C8  track performance with an SUV.  Audi is already there and I suspect the Urus is faster than the SQ8, in fact I know it is.  

XLR started on a C5 chassis, but ended up on a C6 chassis that started production in 2005, XLR was 2004-2009. The C5 chassis is awesome along with C6, C7 and C8, C5 was leaps and bounds better than the C4, stiffer and lighter frame, better handling etc... GM won't let anything in the stable beat the Corvette on power, like @oldshurst442 stated, GM is a full-line automobile manufacturer from cheap econo boxes to a loaded C8 Z51 Vette or Escalade Platinum, unlike your vaunted favorite MB that doesn't have an actual full-line, no trucks at all or basic econo boxes.

Click on the link below that I posted in the body of text above that you apparently didn't open, try it you might learn something. It only mentions C6 Corvette with XLR because for most of it's life that's what chassis XLR rode on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_XLR

This is exactly what you stated above:  "I think it possible for Cadillac to make an SUV that can match the C8 on a race track or at least get really close." Not gonna match it or get remotely close. And 12 seconds is an eternity on the track, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. 

I've driven all generations of the Corvette from C1 to C7 and own a C5 Coupe with just some bolt-ons so not much needs to be done from the factory. Just usual "Fog Horn Leg Horn" smoke from you.

[ocnblu]

[balthazar]

[USA-1]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

See this? NiMoCo trying to save Nissan with some past time mojo.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30586109/nissan-z-future-2021/

[David]

5 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

See this? NiMoCo trying to save Nissan with some past time mojo.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30586109/nissan-z-future-2021/

Be interesting to see if it actually happens now that Covid-19 is hitting the world hard. I think products like this are aimed for the chopping block by financially weak companies of which Nissan falls into.

One has to wonder and question the future product road maps for all auto makers right now.

Hope it still comes out, but who knows.

[David]

June 1927 Stevens Pass

Stevens Pass modern times

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yes it is

When the  high performance versions of Corvettes first comes out, not the base ones, Vettes usually lead the pack only for Ferrari and Porsche to counter back....   Again...keeping in kind that the Corvette, even the high performance versions, still priced waaaaay below the others...     We got a new level of sports car called the hypercar to contend with, that would be the AMG-One or Laferrari...   but again, the Corvette has an answer to that...   but it aint out yet.  It will 3-4 years from now.

 

It be a money loser for Cadillac to do a supercar/hypercar based on a Vette or bespoke like a Cien concept.. Whether YOU like it or not, the Corvette is best of the best. No matter WHAT price point we are talking about.  BECAUSE it is engineered to a low price point, the Vette engineers sacrifice some stuff on it.  But...with the C8 we see that some of those constraints have been loosened...   Honestly, Id love to see Corvette engineers do to a Corvette program with a budget that AMG-One had with AMG engineers.   Ill say it again, the Zora Hybrid C8 to come will EQUAL if NOT surpass what the AMG-ONE will do... And even if...EVEN IF it does not and just misses the mark just a tad, which it might, Ill admit...remember...AMG-ONE is 2 point something million dollars. The Zora will be at 150 000 dollars...   A FRACTION of that price tag.  WITH TTHE SAME TECHNOLOGY.   Maybe a tad less use of exotic weight saving materials materials on the outside and maybe a tad less extravagant materials on the inside to cuddle the owner...   BIG DEAL  like I said...A CORVETTE IS A HUGE MIDDLE FINGER TO POSH, SNOOTY BITCHES THAT LOOK DOWN ON THE VETTE!!! 

Sure...

Like I said...THAT could mean ANYTHING.

It COULD be a Cien.

But really no.  

Its more of a Sixteen, Ciel, Elmiraj or some sort of wacky, more arrogant type of SUV that even outdoes the Escalade. Or the Escalade itself 'escalated' to a higher level...  with cigar humidor interiors and whiskey holding cabinets and PHOQUE YOU IM A RICH AS$&HOL3  written all over the exterior design. 

 

Corvette isn't the best performance, the C7 ZR1 was 30 seconds slower around the Nurburgring than the 911 GT2, and the 911 is slower than both the Huracan and Aventador.   Yes there is a C8 but there is a new 911 too now.    And yet Zora will be here in 4 years but the other guys have new stuff coming too.

The Zora won't hold a candle to the AMG One, the C8 is too heavy.  The AMG One is 1,000 lbs lighter than a C8.   

Nothing but the GM beancounters is stopping Corvette engineers from making a $1 million dollar hyper car.  If Mary Barra said tomorrow she wants a car faster than the Veyron, we'd see if they can take the Corvette to 270 mph.   Mercedes made a car that hit 268 mph on public roads in 1938, a record that stood until 2017 when the Koenigsegg Agera did 277 mph.  Maybe Zora can go for 280 mph and set the new standard, that should be the target to have best in the world performance.  

 

Cadillac can do a fancy SUV, but you have Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Bentley, Ferrari with SUV's too, so you have to do something specular there, but there is less entrants in that space than there are in sports cars, and SUVs sell way better than sports cars.

[USA-1]

Ok, here you all go. Let's see which ones make it. Badass automobile porn to me are 2, 9 (love the Cad. Red Obsession Tintcoat) and 10 of course (right @oldshurst442), rugged but quiet at 14, pretty sleek at 22 and 23 although 23 kinda same 'ole MB and cost cutting with soft top, 24 doesn't look much different from 370Z so far and finally maybe making a comeback at 26.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g28985154/future-cars/?slide=16

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

They are getting rid of the V8 in certain areas...  Dont play stupid.

Im afraid the SL will not even survive 2021 the way things are going let alone 2030.  And yes, maybe with Covid generation economies, the C8 will eat into its market share....

Whether YOU like it or not, the C8 is that much of a game changer regardless if it is a Chevy or not...  It a short little while, the 2021 Z06 will be available for owners to buy.  OK...with this Covid era economy, the Z06 will be a 2022 model.  The thing is, Chevrolet is going all out with the C8 Vette and the C8 vette itself is selling like hotcakes. With NEW market share that NEW consumers are buying into....regardless of a Chevy nameplate...

And yes...4 cylinder outputs are out of this world.

Its still prestigious to have a V8 under the hood. More so now  than ever.  Dont try to spin the failures of M-B in your favour...

And...last bit NOT least

AMG does NOT have lots of sized of vehicles.  Mercedes has that.

But if the economy goes even MORE south, AMG will NOT have ANY buyers as even the stinkin' rich will cut back with unnecessary purchases.  And even THEY will be looking for bargains. EVERYBODY LOVES bargains.  And like I said above, the C8 Corvette WILL quest their thirst for something new and shiny, that goes crazy fast and has "that look" that cars in this league demand... 

 

 

 

 

Getting rid of a V8 in something like a C-class, and who puts V8s in small sedans outside of Mercedes?  I don't see a V8 in an M3 anymore, CT4/ATS never had one, Lexus IS-F is dead, Guilia has a V6, etc.   Rumor is Mercedes has a 515 hp 4-cylinder hybrid for the C63, more power than the current V8 and they get to take all that weight off the front axel for handling. 

SL isn't dying, they have a new one coming next year, I imagine 2022 model with how things are going as you mentioned.   They are even killing SLC, S-class coupe, and S-class convertible to clear out space in the portfolio for the SL.  And there will be an SL73 at the top of the Mercedes mountain, they are committed to their longest running nameplate.  

C8 is a game changer in that you can get a mid-engine car for $60k, and even well equipped at $75k, it is a fantastic deal.  It is super car performance for half the price.  But they always had good performance for half the price, so that hasn't changed.

Problem with your last point is when the economy goes south, it isn't the type of people that buy new AMG cars that suffer, it is the other 95% of the population.   As millions are unemployed the stock market goes up, Jeff Bezos gets richer and richer while thousands of small businesses fold and every auto maker around the globe lays off workers.  The millionaires and billionaires don't suffer, the regular folks do.

[oldshurst442]

14 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Ok, here you all go. Let's see which ones make it. Badass automobile porn to me are 2, 9 (love the Cad. Red Obsession Tintcoat) and 10 of course (right @oldshurst442), rugged but quiet at 14, pretty sleek at 22 and 23 although 23 kinda same 'ole MB and cost cutting with soft top, 24 doesn't look much different from 370Z so far and finally maybe making a comeback at 26.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g28985154/future-cars/?slide=16

 

These are mine.  The 2021 TLX also peaks my interest. And the Mazda 6.  Did I read that correctly?  A RWD inline 6 Mazda 6 for 2023?  

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

This is exactly what you stated above:  "I think it possible for Cadillac to make an SUV that can match the C8 on a race track or at least get really close." Not gonna match it or get remotely close. And 12 seconds is an eternity on the track, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. 

I've driven all generations of the Corvette from C1 to C7 and own a C5 Coupe with just some bolt-ons so not much needs to be done from the factory. Just usual "Fog Horn Leg Horn" smoke from you.

12 seconds isn't an eternity on a track that takes 7 minutes and 42 seconds to get around.  Secondly, the RSQ8 is heavy, smart engineering and some carbon fiber can shed 300 lbs off that thing easily that has to be worth 3-4 seconds, and now you are within less than 10 seconds of a C8.  We haven't seen the GLE63 run yet and it has more power than the RSQ8 and so maybe it can crack 7:40, the GLC did 7:49, so I gotta imagine a far more powerful GLE with the 48 volt electric suspension can take 10 seconds off the GLC.

These other guys are getting close, and those aren't even purpose built, if you go in with the idea to make a lightweight, sports SUV, I think you can get closer to the C8.  Omega is quite weight efficient they could build a 4800 lb SUV on it and that gives them 500 lbs advantage over the RS Q8, use carbon fiber roof and hood to lower center of gravity and cut weight, tune the Blackwing up to a 7500 red line 650 hp, 650 lb ft, add an electric assist on top of that and you are on your way.

[USA-1]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

These are mine.  The 2021 TLX also peaks my interest. And the Mazda 6.  Did I read that correctly?  A RWD inline 6 Mazda 6 for 2023?  

Great minds think alike! Except for that Yota MR-Too strange front end kinda like the new i8 pretty sleek lines, but the funky nose doesn't flow with the rest of the car. 

Yes, RWD and I-6 in Mazda 6, going for broke in a dying segment, last chance too woo sedan buyers. 

[smk4565]

9 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

These are mine.  The 2021 TLX also peaks my interest. And the Mazda 6.  Did I read that correctly?  A RWD inline 6 Mazda 6 for 2023?  

That has been rumored, but I see one major problem.  Mazda wants to be a "premium" brand for some reason, so if they make an inline 6 Mazda 6, it will probably cost $45k and no one is going to buy it.  Because car enthusiasts will just buy a BMW for the same money, and the mass market will see Camry for $25k and buy that.  The Mazda 6 despite being a good car already gets clobbered by the Camry and Accord and I think because they don't push themselves as "value" they push themselves are "premium" which means more expensive to buyer's minds.

[USA-1]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 I gotta imagine a far more powerful GLE with the 48 volt electric suspension can take 10 seconds off the GLC.

 I think you can get closer to the C8. 

Found your issue..

Edited June 9, 2020 by USA-1

[oldshurst442]

32 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Problem with your last point is when the economy goes south, it isn't the type of people that buy new AMG cars that suffer, it is the other 95% of the population.   As millions are unemployed the stock market goes up, Jeff Bezos gets richer and richer while thousands of small businesses fold and every auto maker around the globe lays off workers.  The millionaires and billionaires don't suffer, the regular folks do.

 

Jeff Bezos aside...because he owns a company that actually thrives in these times. 

But, If I just go with all the MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL owners, millionnaires and billionnaires, and  airline industries, automotive companies, restaurants of all kinds other than the huge franchises .and all other similar situations in business where regular  folk simply stopped consuming,  these guys say they are suffering, even if they are lying so they dont pay their players (sports teams owners.).. if 95% of the population suffers and the 95% of the population dont consume the products and services these millionnaires and billionnaires offer and peddle, where does their money come from?

If the 95% of the population suffers and dont consume, spend and invest in the stock market...trust me, these billionaires fast become millionaires if not poorer.

The millionaires fast are worth just  hundreds of thousands of dollars if not poorer.

Folk that have hundreds of thousands of dollars risk of not having anything.

Trust me, AMG cars and Ferraris and Rolls Royces  are the ones to go bankrupt FASTER than Chevrolets Fords and Hondas...

Leading up to the war, and in the Great Depression,  the luxury marques such as Duesenberg and Cords disappeared rather than Chevy, Ford and Dodge. 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

Just now, USA-1 said:

Found your issue..

I know you can shave that 12 second gap from RS Q8 to C8.  Take out 350 lbs and add 50 hp and lb-ft and you just got 6 seconds.  Now it is a 6 second gap.  And you are pretty close, not beating but very close.

[daves87rs]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

First off, a Corvette is not the best of the best performance, there are dozens of faster cars on market.  Performance per dollar is fantastic and for years has been.

Secondly, obviously a Corvette is a Chevrolet and always should be.  I have often said there should be a V6 (probably turbo) Corvette that even comes in at a lower price point to broaden appeal. 

But there are people that want more than a Corvette, spend more than what a Corvette costs, or won't give Chevrolet the time of day solely on brand image or dealership experience.  This is where Cadillac can come in.  Now maybe GM ran the numbers and just doesn't see a business case or market demand for a Cadillac supercar and that's fine.  When you look at R8 and NSX sales they are pretty much nothing, so I can see Cadillac not going there because it would probably be a money loser.

So if not a sports car, what does Cadillac build outside of the Escalade that brings people in?  I think super SUV has more profit potential.

Never thought I ‘d agree with a lower price point Vette- but it really is needed. While the Camaro is barely hanging on- now would be a good time to reintroduce the Vette to more than just the guys with the big money.....

[smk4565]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Jeff Bezos aside...because he owns a company that actually thrives in these times. 

But, If I just go with all the MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL owners, millionnaires and billionnaires, and  airline industries, automotive companies, restaurants of all kinds other than the huge franchises .and all other similar situations in business where regular  folk simply stopped consuming,  these guys say they are suffering, even if they are lying so they dont pay their players... if 95% of the population suffers and the 95% of the population dont consume the products and services these millionnaires and billionnaires offer and peddle, where does their money come from?

If the 95% of the population suffers and dont consume, spend and invest in the stock market...trust me, these billionaires fast become millionaires if not poorer.

The millionaires fast are worth just  hundreds of thousands of dollars if not poorer.

Folk that have hundreds of thousands of dollars risk of not having anything.

Trust me, AMG cars and Ferraris and Rolls Royces  are the ones to go bankrupt FASTER than Chevrolets Fords and Hondas...

Leading up to the war, and in the Great Depression,  the luxury marques such as Duesenberg and Cords disappeared rather than Chevy, Ford and Dodge. 

 

 

 

Duesenberg disappeared partly because the wealthy didn't want to be seen flaunting wealth in the depression.  Also FDR raised the top tier tax rate to 94%  by 1941 so he basically put a limit on income because no one would make salary over that cap.  Today with a 37% top tax rate, and even at that the billionaires aren't paying, you have these super wealthy that was not as widespread decades ago.

Also these big corporations bet government bailouts all the time.  The billionaires won't be hurt at all by Covid-19, riots, looking, etc, because the system is rigged for them.  

I'm a grow the economy fro the bottom up kind of guy and would love a modern day FDR tax code, but that isn't what we have.  The 3 richest Americans have more money than the poorest 160 million Americans combined. So it isn't the rich that hurt, it is that 160 million people that do.

[USA-1]

5 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Never thought I ‘d agree with a lower price point Vette- but it really is needed. While the Camaro is barely hanging on- now would be a good time to reintroduce the Vette to more than just the guys with the big money.....

The exact reason GM should have kept the C7 around. A Base model C7 that the R&D is fully paid for and can be offered to more people. They don't want to cannibalize the Camaro though which still offering a less expensive C7 would do and they're still selling Camaro's obviously at a slower rate just like Mustangs and Challengers right now.

It also has to do with assembly plant allocation with Camaro being built at a different plant (Lansing, MI) than Corvette (Bowling Green, KY).  

[daves87rs]

6 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

The exact reason GM should have kept the C7 around. A Base model C7 that the R&D is fully paid for and can be offered to more people. They don't want to cannibalize the Camaro though which still offering a less expensive C7 would do and they're still selling Camaro's obviously at a slower rate just like Mustangs and Challengers right now.

It also has to do with assembly plant allocation with Camaro being built at a different plant (Lansing, MI) than Corvette (Bowling Green, KY).  

I think they could still do both. Still think the Camaro should have a lower into price too....it’s how you get the bug started... 😉  And offer ways for them to custom up that ride. I think they could still bring a base C8 for maybe 40k. Also brings those same or similar folks in to the Chevy family. The nice part about the old pony cars is that they had a wide range in price.......

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

Duesenberg disappeared partly because the wealthy didn't want to be seen flaunting wealth in the depression

False.

Cadillac thrived with that very image during the depression.  So did Mercedes.  

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The 3 richest Americans have more money than the poorest 160 million Americans combined. So it isn't the rich that hurt, it is that 160 million people that do.

You have a habit of discussing and comparing the most of extremes together. 

3 richest Americans and all the oil barons dont give a shyte what happens to the world because in anyway, their products and services are the ones that keep the world going round anyway...WW3 or Covid 19.

Its like you compre a 2 million dollar AMG-One and say its waaaaay lighter than a BASE 60 000 Corvette Stingray...

Of course it SHOULD be lighter.  I said above, the Corvette is engineered to a lower price point. Sacrifices have to be made somewhere.  The AMG-One is a no expense spared engineered vehicle.

Than you blame GM beancounting for this...  Like WTF???!!!

You cant expect GM to have a no expense spared Corvette to be sold for only 60 000 dollars...

That would mean that the Corvette would have to be sold at 2 point something million dollars and limited to a 1 year limited run of 275 units.  THAT is not the Corvette's business case. Nor is its image and target market.

And the AMG-One is NOT expected to be cheapened for price point sake sold to the masses.

The thing is, the Zora's mission IS to be an AMG-One PERFORMANCE competitor...  AND THAT it will be...

With the economy argument. 

Billions of dollars have been lost to Covid so far.  Those billions lost have NOT BEEN pocketed  by ANYBODY.  Bezos and the other 2 richest Americans aside. And those oil baron sheiks, because oil has still been produced and made into gasoline and other products like plastics so they still make money, those billionaire sports clubs owners and other businesses have simply halted... 

NO MONEY BEING MADE.

Let me put it this way.

I own a restaurant.  I cut my hours down considerably. But I also cut down on my staff considerably.

Because I could stay open, I got a drive through, I was able to make money. The same amount actually. I had to work a tad harder, but my profits havent suffered. My sales went down a tad, but I matched that with cutting my expenses equally so that is how I have been able to keep my profits up. And...  Im like Bezos in this regard. I got to continue to make money.  But some of my workers, I had to lay off.  

McDonald's close to me also has stayed open. They too, hardly lost a beat. Likje Bezos....  OK...Amazon sales went up.  But local brick and mortar stores hit a rougher patch, as now peoples thirst to consume is 100% done online....

But...rich hard working owners of other businesses in my neighborhood had to close down for 2 whole months with NO revenue coming in.  McDonald's and myself are in the minority.  The reality is that MOST businesses are NOT like me.  

Stop arguing with extreme situations...start discussing things more in line...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, daves87rs said:

I think they could still do both. Still think the Camaro should have a lower into price too....it’s how you get the bug started... 😉  And offer ways for them to custom up that ride. I think they could still bring a base C8 for maybe 40k. Also brings those same or similar folks in to the Chevy family. The nice part about the old pony cars is that they had a wide range in price.......

Unfortunately for many, it won't be the C8. GM states that they lose money on every C8 that they sell for less than $80k because of the R&D spent on it and just the expensive lightweight platform in general. $59,995 pricing was just to appease the masses, it's just too expensive and too good of a car to be sold for under $80k or even the base $60k car.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/11/chevrolet-loses-money-on-all-corvette-c8s-sold-for-less-than-80000/

https://www.motor1.com/news/385310/gm-loses-on-base-corvette/

 

[trinacriabob]

10 hours ago, daves87rs said:

I think they could still do both. Still think the Camaro should have a lower into price too....it’s how you get the bug started... 😉  And offer ways for them to custom up that ride. I think they could still bring a base C8 for maybe 40k. Also brings those same or similar folks in to the Chevy family. The nice part about the old pony cars is that they had a wide range in price.......

And I've even seen them do some photoshops and design exercises with a new Firebird (probably same chassis as the Camaro) come back as a Buick.  Bring it on!  With their cars gone, it might be the only Buick I might like.

[smk4565]

I don’t think Corvette should be ultra expensive, I think GM should build something above Corvette.  Corvette has to hit a price target, but a Cadillac super car would not.  Bugatti prices a car at $3 million and it sells out, Mercedes prices a car at $2.8 million and it sells out.  The price doesn’t even matter to the people buying these things.  

[oldshurst442]

48 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don’t think Corvette should be ultra expensive, I think GM should build something above Corvette.  Corvette has to hit a price target, but a Cadillac super car would not.  Bugatti prices a car at $3 million and it sells out, Mercedes prices a car at $2.8 million and it sells out.  The price doesn’t even matter to the people buying these things.  

Several mistakes in your thinking...

1. GM does NOT build the Corvette.  Chevrolet does.  GM is a multinational corporation that owns several automotive brands under its umbrella. Chevrolet  Motor Division is one them and its Chevrolet that builds the Corvette.  GM, with the profits being made from its Motor Divisions and its other entities allocates the monies and funds projects to its motor divisions so they continue to build automobiles.  

2. If and when Cadillac decides that a hyper car is needed in their portfolio, Cadillac management will ask for monies to start the project.

3. A business case has to be built for it.

4. If Cadillac project managers see a good viable business case for it, then they will pitch that idea to GM management. Yes, accountantants will be there.  Money has to be made. Its a business.

5. If GM greenlights the idea, CADILLAC with its engineers will start the project. But, obviously there will be targets needed to be achieved. All kinds of targets ranging from moneatary budgets, engineering parameters, performance parameters, marketing, target market analysis, etc.

 

With the Corvette, many times the program was almost canceled.   If a business case was made for the C8 in the mid 1990s, when GM was buying up SAAB and had monies tied up in Saturn and Fiat and was bleeding money on other failed projects like the W-Body at that time, if the Corvette engineering team, and Chevrolet project managers pitched the idea to make a mid-engined Corvette that would be LOSING money on all models excpet for the highest of trims...you think GM would green light such a money losing endeavor in the 1990s?

The answer is of course NO!

And indeed, the C5 was NOT greenlighted. The Corvette was about to be canceled after 1996. And that would be on a car that had already a solid busienss case with the C4.  The C4 was a RESOUNDING success. So much so that Chevy wanted sooooo many things to do with the C4 that GM had greenlighted everything for it. Like a DOHC V8 for it. GM had greenlighted all kinds of special programs for the C4 and spent lots of monies experimenting with the C4 platform. 

But by the time the replacement C5 Corvette was to arrived, GM had invested its monies funding other projects that no monies were left for a replacement C5 to arrive.

A rogue group of Chevrolet employees that consisted of Corvette engineers, other Chevy engineers, mechanics and the like all got together and started, on their OWN time, engineering ideas and engineering concepts and actually engineering and building mock-ups with budgetary constraints to get a frankenstein C4 as proof that a C5 Corvette program need not a huge budget to be produced so that the Corvette could live on.

GM beancounters and managers saw what little investment was needed to continue on with a C5 using the frankensteined C4 and hence the C5 continued on.   A new frame was engineered, some new parts were introduced,  other parts were re-used and so-called cheap interior materials were used to get the C5 up and running... 

This is why I told you that C5, C6 AND C7 are closely related because in effect, they are. THIS is why the Corvette program is financially successful, because Corvette engineers and Chevrolet tooling use rthe most of what they can with what they got.

A 2006 C6 Corvette used a 2006 Malibu steering wheel.   parts bin economies.  Its what makes the Corvette program run.

But for C8. All that is new. Everything is new on it. new parts, new tooling. New platform.  And an almost no expense budget was introduced.   

But the IMAGE of a Corvette is NOT about it being a boutique sports car like a Porsche 911 or Ferrari 488 or a strospheric hypercar like a AMG-ONE.

Image, target market, price tag etc of the Corvette has been fleshed out since 1953.  And THAT also means that at Chevrolet, the technological tour de force that it is, it has become a HALO car for Chevrolet. And BECAUSE GM owns Chevrolet, it owns the Corvette. 

But...you talk about having a car ABOVE a Corvette. 

You want Chevrolet and GM just to throw ALL THAT TECHNOLOGICAL HISTORY OUT THE DOOR TO CREATE ANOTHER SUPERCAR ABOVE THE CORVETTE???!!!

HOW?

Part of what makes a Corvette SO SPECIAL IS THE  67 YEARS OF HISTORY IT HAS GOT UNDER ITS BELT. 

ALL THE RACES ITS WON ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE.  ALL THE SPECIAL TRIMS THAT MADE TOUCHED THE AUTOMOTIVE WORLD.  L88, ZL-1 STINGRAY, STING RAY,  SEVERAL ZR-1s in HISTORY, SEVERAL Z06s IN HISTORY.

You tend to forget and you tend to put compare Corvette as if its a brand on its own.  ITS NOT.   

Corvette is NOT PORSCHE.

Corvette is just a model amongst several models in the Chevrolet line-up. 

Porsche is a brand. Porsche produces SEVERAL models. 

Corvette is just ONE CAR.

Cadillac...and THIS IS WHERE I GOT two people confused with what I said @frogger and @ocnblu 

Cadillac....for Cadillac to be succesful in this realm, they need a supercar to be better than a Corvette. And THAT is a car in the same automotive family.

A Cadillac supercar could NEVER succeed with Corvette being there. No! NOT because Chevrolet and "GM" wont let it. 

CORVETTE HISTORY wont let a Cadillac supercar succeed.

CADILLAC HISTORY wont let a Cadillac supercar succeed either. 

Its NOT Cadillac. 

Cadillac needs a supercar that is TOTALLY different than a Corvette.

A mid 2000s Cien that was mid-engined WITH A V12 MAY have been that car. An XLR that evoked looks from an EVOQ concept was NOT that car.  NOW, that Corvette is mid-engined...FORGET IT!!! 

A Corvette will ALWAYS be THE super sports car that will come out of Chevrolet and under the GM umbrella. And the Corvettte engineers and marketing team KNOW what the Corvette is, and what it will always be and will be the leader in performance for Chevrolet, for the GM family and for the world.

Corvette was ALWAYS pushing the performance envelope. 

A Ferrari F40  had a o-60 time of 3.8 seconds, went above 200mph had over 400 HP. WAS the performance leader of its time.

The Porcshe 959 was in step with the F40.

So was the Corvette. 

The ZR1  0-60 in 4.4 secs.  Close to 200 MPH.  

Chevy had several C4s PASS 200MPH as experimentals.

But the ZR1's price tag was nowhere near the F40s and 959s price tags.

And THAT is the Corvette.

YOU keep on telling me that cars costing 1 million, 2 million dollars are FASTER than the C8 BASE Corvette in 2020.

I tell you that a 150 000 Zora will match those million dollar cars. And that its not out yet. And that in 4 years other cars will come out.  NOT THE AMG-ONE. Its a 1 year, 275 limited run vehicle.  The Zora is here to stay and WILL be evolved. And when the C9 comes out, the C9 performance will continue where the C8 Zora would have left off.

The base C5  left off where the fastest C4 ended.

The base C6 left off where the fastest C5 (Z06) ended.

The base C7 left off where the fastest C6 (ZR1) ended

Thwe base C8 left off where the fastes C7 (ZR1) ended,

and the C7 does THAT with 200 HP LESS...

THAT is the Corvette.

And for Cadilllac to compete with that?

And HOW do you get a car above the Corvette?

The CORVETTE is what is on top!!!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

In other words...

@smk4565

You want General Motors to fund BILLIONS of dollars investing in TWO supercars AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME TIME FRAME???

PORSCHE does not even do that...

Ferrari does not even do that...

Mercedes does not even do that...

[David]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Problem with your last point is when the economy goes south, it isn't the type of people that buy new AMG cars that suffer, it is the other 95% of the population.   As millions are unemployed the stock market goes up, Jeff Bezos gets richer and richer while thousands of small businesses fold and every auto maker around the globe lays off workers.  The millionaires and billionaires don't suffer, the regular folks do.

Regular folks do suffer especially when those that have the expendable cash flow continue to purchase European or Asian products over American options. As such, you become part of the problem buying MB over a GM or Ford product. As such leading to the death of American business for the sake of supporting an out of country company. It is a choice and I respect your choice to choose European over American or Asian. We all have that right under our constitution. Yet do not talk about Americans building American business when you do not support it.

Jeff Bezo DOES NOT care about the source as it is a global market, what he cares about is building his American Business to serve the needs of the American market. Creating American jobs, putting Americans to work. 

Yes the warehouse and delivery jobs are not medium income jobs, but they are jobs that put people to work and Amazon does employ 10's of thousands that do work on all the tech that Amazon uses which are medium to high paying jobs.

Stop focusing on the one who is a multi-cultural supporting business leader that is creating jobs and focus on the needs to adjust those that want racial inequality.

Socialism will never work as everyone has varying degrees of work ethic and drive, but we can make a difference when we stop looking at skin color, sexual orientation or beliefs be them religious or not and focus on treating all humans as equal.

We do not need to defund police, we need to demilitarize the police and give them the tools to work with society while protecting us from the criminal element.

I believe many here if not all believe in the right to have the best life possible and work to their level of hard work to earn a living. You have a right to buy what ever you want, it is your money. I respect that. We need to think more on how we treat each other during good and bad times. 

If we stop being human with care for all, we then loose our humanity.

A Quote for the day:

“Courage. Kindness. Friendship. Character. These are the qualities that define us as human beings, and propel us, on occasion, to greatness.”
― R.J. Palacio, Wonder

14 hours ago, USA-1 said:

The exact reason GM should have kept the C7 around. A Base model C7 that the R&D is fully paid for and can be offered to more people. They don't want to cannibalize the Camaro though which still offering a less expensive C7 would do and they're still selling Camaro's obviously at a slower rate just like Mustangs and Challengers right now.

It also has to do with assembly plant allocation with Camaro being built at a different plant (Lansing, MI) than Corvette (Bowling Green, KY).  

This is where I believe GM could benefit. 

Keep the C7 around as an entry level sports car for those that want ICE at a lower price.

Camaro become the EV pony car for those that want green focused fun fast auto.

Both live on as one in the EV era and one closing out the ICE era before becoming EV too at the high end.

[daves87rs]

3 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

And I've even seen them do some photoshops and design exercises with a new Firebird (probably same chassis as the Camaro) come back as a Buick.  Bring it on!  With their cars gone, it might be the only Buick I might like.

Considering they are quickly running out of cars, this would be a good idea. Could even get it a slight throwback look. Catch is this would need to go to China first-where they love their Buicks! This way there would be enough production to justify keeping them going here in the US....

[daves87rs]

12 hours ago, USA-1 said:

Unfortunately for many, it won't be the C8. GM states that they lose money on every C8 that they sell for less than $80k because of the R&D spent on it and just the expensive lightweight platform in general. $59,995 pricing was just to appease the masses, it's just too expensive and too good of a car to be sold for under $80k or even the base $60k car.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/11/chevrolet-loses-money-on-all-corvette-c8s-sold-for-less-than-80000/

https://www.motor1.com/news/385310/gm-loses-on-base-corvette/

 

Good reason enough to build as many as they can. At this stage-being a super car is simply not enough. In order to keep the Vette alive, and try to bring some car folk into the fold- they need to appeal to more people in general.

Due to the the fact that cars like this are not really attainable , and the fact less car about cars in general-people need something they can drive that will put a smile on their faces ...

[David]

4 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

And I've even seen them do some photoshops and design exercises with a new Firebird (probably same chassis as the Camaro) come back as a Buick.  Bring it on!  With their cars gone, it might be the only Buick I might like.

Make a Firebird inspired EV Pony car for the Buick label. Can cover China and import it here for those that want a green, fast pony car, EV style.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

But...you talk about having a car ABOVE a Corvette. 

You want Chevrolet and GM just to throw ALL THAT TECHNOLOGICAL HISTORY OUT THE DOOR TO CREATE ANOTHER SUPERCAR ABOVE THE CORVETTE???!!!

HOW? 

 

No, I am not saying change anything with the Corvette other than offer a base V6 maybe at $55k.  They can still do ZR1’s and Zora’s.

I am saying GM should build a sports car above Corvette just like I said their should be an SUV above Escalade.  
 

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, daves87rs said:

 In order to keep the Vette alive, and try to bring some car folk into the fold- they need to appeal to more people in general.

Due to the the fact that cars like this are not really attainable , and the fact less car about cars in general-people need something they can drive that will put a smile on their faces ...

The Chevrolet Corvette won't have a problem staying alive, they sell 10's of thousands a year and they are very attainable for many people around the country and the world. First C8 allocations were sold out within in the first couple of weeks of order books opening and 2021 C8's will sellout fast as well. Only reason C7 sales dove off last year is because people waited to buy a C8. By keeping the C7 around they could first, offer it at a much lower price than the C8, and second keep the "purists" happy with the front engine setup. I love both.  

I get what you're trying to say, but why should GM cheapen up the C8 just so people that can't afford it now can? They already did that starting at an astronomically low price of $59,995 and virtually none sell for less than $75-80k because many people can afford them and order them with what they want. GM would also have to sacrifice quality to make it any less expensive. Corvette is simply not an inexpensive car, never has been and never will be. Someone that wants one just has to work as hard as they possible can and buy the real deal, that's how the U.S.A. became such a strong Capitalist country that has thrived for so many decades, HARD A$$ WORK.

[trinacriabob]

The sketch I've seen looks something like this, which is easier on the eyes than the current Camaro (and I'm not necessarily saying the current Camaro is bad)

I guess that, if it were to be branded as a Buick, the Pontiac crest would give way to a round Buick medallion placed right above the ridge, and flat, from where it is currently shown.

I've liked every generation of Firebird a little more than every generation of Camaro.

[oldshurst442]

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

No, I am not saying change anything with the Corvette other than offer a base V6 maybe at $55k.  They can still do ZR1’s and Zora’s.

I am saying GM should build a sports car above Corvette just like I said their should be an SUV above Escalade.  
 

And @daves87rs @USA-1

we are having a nice discussion. I like it. 

Having a lower priced corvette for the masses with a possible ttv6 will probably alter the Vettes image in a negative way 

Vettes are just out of the reach of regular folk. THAT is one aspect that appeals to people.  Keeps folk wanting to work hard to get one. Its like a carrot on a stick dangling in front of a rabbit. 

And because so many are bought new year after year after year, the used market is full of cheap Corvettes. That is how most Corvettes become people’s dream machines anyway since now on the used market, a Vette was picked up on the cheap, and money is left over to be personalized and tuned and hot rodded. 

THAT would be another aspect that appeals to Corvette loyalists. 

A Cadillac supercar will NEVER be able to compete with that. 

Used Corvettes of  a decade ago, or 5 years ago are bought in the used market on the cheap, modified to the nth degree and money spent on them can range between very few dollars spent to astronomical amounts and the performance of these machines are not even touched by the new supercars of the day. 

Again. Cadillac has to deal with 67 years of Corvette history consisting of great sales over the years, legends, myths, race victories, restoration of classics and hot rodding madness.  

The Corvette IS the top. 

Best of the best 

 

[daves87rs]

2 hours ago, USA-1 said:

The Chevrolet Corvette won't have a problem staying alive, they sell 10's of thousands a year and they are very attainable for many people around the country and the world. First C8 allocations were sold out within in the first couple of weeks of order books opening and 2021 C8's will sellout fast as well. Only reason C7 sales dove off last year is because people waited to buy a C8. By keeping the C7 around they could first, offer it at a much lower price than the C8, and second keep the "purists" happy with the front engine setup. I love both.  

I get what you're trying to say, but why should GM cheapen up the C8 just so people that can't afford it now can? They already did that starting at an astronomically low price of $59,995 and virtually none sell for less than $75-80k because many people can afford them and order them with what they want. GM would also have to sacrifice quality to make it any less expensive. Corvette is simply not an inexpensive car, never has been and never will be. Someone that wants one just has to work as hard as they possible can and buy the real deal, that's how the U.S.A. became such a strong Capitalist country that has thrived for so many decades, HARD A$$ WORK.

I understand..and it does make sense. And I can even agree...

But- the “car” person market is dying fast. Pretty soon the best “EV” will replace and plain old gas powered car- as your new money folks care more about image and less about what powers it, as long as it impresses their friends.

My worry is getting cars back into the hands that still love them-before they give up on the oil and gasoline smell too....

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

And @daves87rs @USA-1

we are having a nice discussion. I like it. 

Having a lower priced corvette for the masses with a possible ttv6 will probably alter the Vettes image in a negative way 

Vettes are just out of the reach of regular folk. THAT is one aspect that appeals to people.  Keeps folk wanting to work hard to get one. Its like a carrot on a stick dangling in front of a rabbit. 

And because so many are bought new year after year after year, the used market is full of cheap Corvettes. That is how most Corvettes become people’s dream machines anyway since now on the used market, a Vette was picked up on the cheap, and money is left over to be personalized and tuned and hot rodded. 

THAT would be another aspect that appeals to Corvette loyalists. 

A Cadillac supercar will NEVER be able to compete with that. 

Used Corvettes of  a decade ago, or 5 years ago are bought in the used market on the cheap, modified to the nth degree and money spent on them can range between very few dollars spent to astronomical amounts and the performance of these machines are not even touched by the new supercars of the day. 

Again. Cadillac has to deal with 67 years of Corvette history consisting of great sales over the years, legends, myths, race victories, restoration of classics and hot rodding madness.  

The Corvette IS the top. 

Best of the best 

 

Corvette needs a V6 if they want to sell global.  The V8 doesn't pass European emissions, and it might pass in China, but it would bet clobbered with displacement taxes.  So there is one argument for a V6.

 

What Corvette is really has no relevance to anything Cadillac does.  Whether Cadillac wants to build a sports car, a Lamborghini Urus style SUV, a big sedan, a luxury off roader or anything else.  Cadillac should do what is best for Cadillac, not what is best for Chevrolet or Corvette or GMC or anything else.

 

I think a big problem of GM in general is one brand compromises another.  Can't make a Buick too nice or it will step on the toes of a Cadillac, can't make a sports car faster than the Corvette, can't make anything more expensive than an Escalade, can't put too much power in a Camaro or it will steal Corvette sales.  None of that crap should matter, if Ford has a 750 hp Mustang, Dodge has an 800 hp Challenger, and Chevy has a 500 hp Camaro because it can't have more power than the Corvette, then Camaro gets screwed and loses to its competitors.  And I know there is a 600-whatever horsepower Camaro but I am just using that as an example.   Same with Escalade, it was once one of the most expensive SUVs on market, now there are 10 or so that are higher priced than it. 

Now if GM decides cars with base prices over $100k is just not a money maker for them that is fine, don't go there.  But you still have to make your other products best in segment, and not position them as to no step on the toes of over brands.  This brands should be competing with each other to get better.

36 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

I understand..and it does make sense. And I can even agree...

But- the “car” person market is dying fast. Pretty soon the best “EV” will replace and plain old gas powered car- as your new money folks care more about image and less about what powers it, as long as it impresses their friends.

My worry is getting cars back into the hands that still love them-before they give up on the oil and gasoline smell too....

I bet Ford Mustang Mach -E outsells the Mustang once production is ramped up in calendar year 2022 for example, despite Mach-E costing more.  Truth of the matter is, they could sell the Corvette for $25,000 and the Toyota RAV4 would outsell it 10 to 1.  People want SUVs, the sports car market is small and shrinking.

[riviera74]

@smk4565 It was not that long ago that GM makes DID compete against each other.  Prior to the Chevy Vega, GM brands were competing against each other in almost every segment of the US auto market.  Then came the 71 Vega and the dreaded homologation that led to the dismantling of different characteristics for each brand.  That is the biggest reason that Oldsmobile and Pontiac (as well as Saab and Saturn) have died.

[ocnblu]

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

@smk4565 It was not that long ago that GM makes DID compete against each other.  Prior to the Chevy Vega, GM brands were competing against each other in almost every segment of the US auto market.  Then came the 71 Vega and the dreaded homologation that led to the dismantling of different characteristics for each brand.  That is the biggest reason that Oldsmobile and Pontiac (as well as Saab and Saturn) have died.

I think that's a little muddled.
Chevy's Vega came out in '71, there wasn't a 2nd variant (and there never was a 3rd) until the '73 Pontiac Astre. And I still don't see where that pair 'altered course' for everything else.
As usual, it was a series of events over a number of years- there's never a singular cause. The '73 Astre has zero to do with Pontiac in 2010.