Random Thoughts Thread

[oldshurst442]

 

1 hour ago, David said:

Very cool story about doing a modern day Buick GSX.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/modern-buick-gsx-stage-1-rebirth-fancies-camaro-based-return-to-fighting-mopars-179022.html

 

 

 

Nope! No way!  NOT like that!  

NOT based on the Alpha Camaro. NOT based on the short wheel base Alpha...    

Although that rendering looks great, as a Buick or otherwise, the GSX is not a pony car and its definitely not a pony car sized muscle car...

The Zeta platform might have been a better fit for a GSX.  But GM DOES have a vehicle of THAT size in its arsenal right NOW even if the Zeta platform is no longer in production. 

 

The Cadillac CT5 on the longer wheel base Alpha is where a potential GSX should be based on.  The rendering is just basically a Camaro with a pseudo Buick front end.  

A Buick GSX on a Cadillac CT5 oriented platform with a 1970-1971 Buick A-Body window quarter panel look instead of the Cadillac's weird reverse Hoffmeister kink should be the goal.   

Yes, the Camaro seems to have that type of window quarter panel style as a 1970/1971  Chevelle/Skylark, its the short wheelbase and interior space that fails the necessary GSX specifications for a possible new GSX.

 

Kevin Morgan of Trans Am Depot of Wordwide Trans Am has already made renders like these for GM A Bodys almost a decade ago.

 

 

 

 

And the company actually built the GTO, from a Zeta Camaro, for which they did the Trans Am, which they continue to do the Trans Am on the Alpha Camaro. 

 

The article also stupidly says that if GM/Buick would want to take on the (Dodge) Challenger, with their Buick brand then they should use the slow selling Camaro as a basis...blah blah blah... 

 

There are several stupid things stated in that article that does NOT make a sense or is not the reality of things.

 

Buick was never a Dodge competitor.  Not then. Not today.  

The Challenger and Charger were never a Buick Skylark (GSX) competition even though all three were muscle cars sold in the muscle car era.  The Challenger today enjoys a real uptick in popularity, especially over its Camaro competition, because of careful and precise identity marketing for itself solidifying not only the Challenger and Charger as real deal muscle cars, but the brand as well.  Dodge also has the Durango, an otherwise mundane SUV like all of them, that Dodge has created a muscle truck out of it.  

Buick on the other hand...

 

The Camaro has reinvented itself not only as a muscle car, but MORE than a muscle car. The Camaro is a true world dominating sports car.  Its exterior dimensions are more world friendly, its performance specs are also more world centric rather than just being a North American specific straight line performer.   

The Camaro's failures are not about identity, its more about being stale.  There is no excitement.

Buick's problems are kinda like the Camaro's.  And unlike Dodge's.

 

Buick has NO identity. 

Buick has gotten stale.  

Buick has NO coupes or sedans. 

For DECADES, Buick has lost focus of what it is and what its supposed to be. 

 

Dodge and its muscle cars have had laser focus of what they are and what they wanna be for...DECADES.   It started out slowly with the Viper back in 1994, but steadily made itself into a performance, muscle car brand. Especially the last decade or so. 

 

The Camaro has been laser focused into what it wants to be going forward since it came back in 2010.  But has become stale.

 

Cadillac has been laser focused with their "V" models.

 

A GSX recreation will NOT solve Buick's problems. 

A GSX on ANY Alpha platform will NOT be an instant success.    There is no marketing that has been hinted at, looked at, explored at for any GSX revival.  Out of the blue will not make it a success.  

In a CUV/SUV world where coupes and sedans are dying, what makes you think a GSX will be a success?

In a changing world where the internal combustion engine is looked upon as being evil, old and not relevant anymore and is being phased out by the very company that owns the model name GSX, what makes you think that the GSX will be a success as an internal combustion engine, 2 door muscle car that most of us have no idea what a GSX even is?  

 

That boat has sailed for Buick to consider itself a turnaround with muscle car nameplates of the past.  

Buick, although Buick's V8s were powerful with gobs of torque, Buick never really had a performance image.

Unlike Dodge... 

 

Buick should think of what image they want their buyers want to be experiencing when buying and driving Buicks, and they should build THAT very vehicle.  And I feel that  American luxury is what they should be concentrating on since THAT is what Buick was ALWAYS about.

What Lincoln is doing.  Not what Dodge is doing.   

 

My 2 cents. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

43 minutes ago, David said:

Seems for car fans that maybe Ford might bring the newest Mondeo Sedan that they just released in China to North America as it was found with plates on in Michigan.

New Ford Mondeo Spied In Michigan Again, But It's Wearing Plates Now (msn.com)

@oldshurst442 @ccap41 Maybe a car for you yet.

This has come and gone many times and Musk has always ignored it, so I have expected this lawsuit.

Why is California suing Tesla? (msn.com)

 

About the Mondeo.

Yeah, its car that I would consider.  As an ICEV or as a BEV.  But unfortunately, the Mondeo is China only.   Not even Europe will get this. 

The article states this but for some reason, it also gives hopes and dreams where hopes and dreams are non-existent.  

 

[David]

6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

About the Mondeo.

Yeah, its car that I would consider.  As an ICEV or as a BEV.  But unfortunately, the Mondeo is China only.   Not even Europe will get this. 

The article states this but for some reason, it also gives hopes and dreams where hopes and dreams are non-existent.  

 

I do wonder why Ford brought it here and put license plates on it. 🤔

[balthazar]

Buick had a very solid performance edge in the '60s, tho; Riviera, Skylark, Wildcat, all available GS-package equipped. 4-speeds & Dual quads, they were in the thick of things. 

They recreated that performance buzz with the T-Types & GN/ GNXs 20 years after that.

I wish the more recent GS had had a serious HP injection, and the smattering of sporty trimmed models since the '60s did, too.

[balthazar]

Hard no. 

[balthazar]

[oldshurst442]

9 hours ago, David said:

I do wonder why Ford brought it here and put license plates on it. 🤔

 

 

But I do know that Ford has canceled all sedans to be sold in the North American market and continues to this day to back up that plan. 

Like I stated earlier, the article leads us down a hopes and dreams path, where there arent any, but also goes full circle to take those hopes and dreams away:

From the article itself: 

Quote

 

Does this mean the Mondeo is coming to the US? Not necessarily. It wouldn't be the first time a car not destined for the US to wear manufacturer plates. Chances are, it is undergoing evaluation of sorts.

 

 

[oldshurst442]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Buick had a very solid performance edge in the '60s, tho; Riviera, Skylark, Wildcat, all available GS-package equipped. 4-speeds & Dual quads, they were in the thick of things. 

They recreated that performance buzz with the T-Types & GN/ GNXs 20 years after that.

I wish the more recent GS had had a serious HP injection, and the smattering of sporty trimmed models since the '60s did, too.

 

Yes, Buick was in the thick of things in the '60s with big cubed V8s and fast, straight line performance automobiles. Just like every other brand that sold cars in the muscle car era with the exception of Cadillac, Lincoln and Chrysler. 

A Wildcat and Riviera with GS nomenclature were muscle cars in a way that a Oldsmobile Toronado, Cadillac Eldorado, Ford Thunderbird 429 (of the late '60s) Chrysler 300 (of the late '60s) and any Lincoln were not...

The Skylark GS was also a muscle car in a way that all those cars I mentioned above were not. And yet, the Skylark was a GM A Body, some in the muscle car crowd had a hard time distinguishing it as one.

Because of Buick's marketing and types of cars Buick sold at that time, Buick was a company kinda like Chrysler, Cadillac and Lincoln in which Buick's straight line performance was not viewed as muscle car performance, but luxury cars that go fast...  

So much so, that although Buick's Skylark GS was a true blue muscle car like an Oldsmobile 442 was, the aura surrounding the GS was not. So Buick marketed 2 versions of the Skylark GS starting in 1970.  A Stage 1 GS in hoping the words Stage 1 on the grill and the colourful, racing striped GSX would better acknowledge that the Skylark is a bonafide muscle car.  

And while Buick did reignite American performance in the late '70s to the mid '80s with T-Types & GN/ GNXs, slightly ahead of the rest of the other American brands, and ran away with it in 1987,  Buick let it all go the very next year in 1988. Unlike the rest of the other American brands and by the 1990s, Plymouth, Dodge, Pontiac, Chevrolet and Ford all had 1 or 2 vehicles that entered the new age of performance to do battle with the German and Japanese performance cars.  

And while the W-Body supercharged 3.8 liter V6 Regal of the mid to late 1990s was a fast sedan, Pontiac's version was the one that was marketed as the performance W Body.  The supercharged Riviera with the same engine was quite the performer too, Oldsmobile's Aurora  (on the same platform as the Riv) had a V8 with 10 HP more and more torque. And was a sports sedan to do battle with the Germans while the Riviera was marketed for and bought by sexagenarian folk. Presumably (by me) by women. And while the next gen W-Body Buick Lacrosse Super gained an LS 5.3 liter V8, so did the Pontiac and Chevrolet versions and it was those that were marketed as the performance W Body machines. Not he Buick.  

About the Riviera of the 1990s,

The gauge cluster was a great interpretation of the hey day '60s models, but the font and size of the numbers on the speedometer was said to be in a  way for the older folk to see them better.  Now, I read that in a MotorTrend or Car and Driver  article about the Riviera. Looking back at that, Im not so sure how accurate it was. Probably the same bullshyte they always spewed about American cars, but it just goes to show you that Buick's performance in the 1990s was never taken seriously by anybody, and Buick didnt seem to mind that at all... 

Like I said, decades of Buick losing focus of what they are. And performance not really being their thing anyway. Buick's performance was just icing on the cake as compared to Lincoln and Cadillac.  And therefore, a GSX revival out of the blue, without any prior  hinting of Buick performance will not move the excitement needle for anybody that is less than 50 years old.  Im not even sure folk that are older than 50 will get excited either. Its been a loooong time since the GNX and an even LONGER time since the GSX to actually make people care.

However, if this 2012 Buick Regal (GS)

 

Had REAL HP and torque and an AWD system to take on Audi S4s, Acura TL SH-AWDs, Subaru WRX STis, Ford Focus ST and RS which would lead into this Regal GS

in keeping and possibly improving upon said performance, then maybe, just maybe, a Buick GSX based on either of these Cadillacs, with AWD differentiating it from Cadillac would be a smashing hit.  And you know what?

Maybe a Buick GSX revival need not a supercharged LS V8. Maybe calling it a Grand National or GNX rather than GSX with Cadillac's TTV6 from the CT6 V or CT4 V Blackwing and an AWD system like Acura's or Audi's is all that was  needed. 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

11 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

, Oldsmobile's Aurora  (on the same platform as the Riv) had a V8 with 10 HP more and more torque.

Correction.  Not more torque. 

The Aurora V8 made 20 less torque than the supercharged 3.8 V6.  I got the 4.0 torque figures confused with the Northstar V8 torque figures. I quickly remembered reality, though. 

[balthazar]

[oldshurst442]

^^^

What a mess.  Is this an aftermath of a horrible accident or natural disaster or is this just a junkyard mess of some sort in the middle of an urban setting that happens to be NYC?

PS

Count me in on a hard NO to that GTO!!! 

[balthazar]

It's a junkyard / scrap pile. NYC was a horrific dump in many areas in the '70s.

[balthazar]

[Robert Hall]

^ Creepy rural decay...lots of old houses like that in rural Ohio...

[riviera74]

About turning a Buick into a Mopar competitor: WHY?  Just dramatically update the Camaro and that should settle that issue.

If Buick were to get a really fast car, then it needs to be aimed correctly: not Mopar but Lincoln and especially Acura.

[David]

Tesla Cam sure makes some interesting video watching of people.

 

[David]

Very cool auction on a 1993 GMC Typhoon with less than 300 original miles. Crazy that someone would buy it and just sit on it, but to each their own as it was his money. Course current bid is at $60,000 and expected to cross 6 figures before the auction closes.

1993 GMC Typhoon With Just 300 Miles Heads To Auction (gmauthority.com)

For the Camaro Fans.

 

[balthazar]

[balthazar]

near Gallatin MO ~ 

[David]

For the Tech peeps here, this is too funny.

“THE TERMINATOR” graphic tee, pullover hoodie, tank, onesie, and pullover crewneck by Giant Squid Productions. | Cotton Bureau

[balthazar]

Indiana, 1964 ~ 

[balthazar]

'We don't need no steenking frunk!' 
 

[surreal1272]

42 minutes ago, balthazar said:

'We don't need no steenking frunk!' 
 

But if you had a frunk you'd have more room for cocaine smuggling. 

[ccap41]

You get like 20-something cubic feet of additional coke in a Lightning frunk! 

Electric trucks just make sense for drug smuggling. 🤣

[David]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You get like 20-something cubic feet of additional coke in a Lightning frunk! 

Electric trucks just make sense for drug smuggling. 🤣

Or for a state where weed is legal, you can use your F150 Lighting for restocking of your weed stores from the weed farm!  

[David]

Lexus released on Valentine's Day their all-new BEV Sports car. The Lexus BEV Sport symbolizes the future of the luxury Lexus product line. This is what "Lexus Electrified" is to represent.

Reviving the spirit of the Lexus LFA, the Lexus Sport BEV will have a 0-60mph in the low two-second range and a distance range of 430 miles thanks to the use of Solid-State batteries.

SEE A GLIMPSE OF THE FUTURE IN THE LEXUS BEV SPORT - Lexus USA Newsroom

Lexus Electrified: A Bold New Direction / Discover the Global World of Lexus (discoverlexus.com)

[balthazar]

Previous LFA was $375,000, so that means this will be somewhere around $500,000.

[David]

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Previous LFA was $375,000, so that means this will be somewhere around $500,000.

Not surprised, seem the Lexus faithful are willing to part with their hard-earned money for less than stellar performance results.

[balthazar]

They aren't, tho. Lexus sold 62 in 2011; its first year. 2015 it was down to 9. By 2019 it was 3. 

LFA was an enormous flop. 'Channeling its spirit' is an advertising mistake.

- - - - -
I posted a few days ago that KBB.com's evaluation of my '21 GMC was 109% of what I paid, which garnered a few laughing emoji responses.

Just looked at NADA's evaluation, and it's "clean retail" valuation stands at 129% of what I paid for it.

'Clean Retail' is what a dealer would sell it for, supposedly.

What a weird automotive time to be living in, where the old 'it's worth half what you bought it for as soon as you drive off the lot' has been thrown out the window.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Someone posted that the 2022 adjusted price would be $16,384. 

[David]

Interesting, Seems only 6 months after Ford stopped production and left India, they are now going back due to the incentives the Indian Government is giving for building cutting edge auto's in the country. Ford is supposedly thinking about manufacturing of BEVs for export to the U.S. and around the world from India.

Ford Reconsiders an Important Strategic Decision - TheStreet

[balthazar]

[Robert Hall]

On 2/14/2022 at 11:21 AM, riviera74 said:

About turning a Buick into a Mopar competitor: WHY?  Just dramatically update the Camaro and that should settle that issue.

If Buick were to get a really fast car, then it needs to be aimed correctly: not Mopar but Lincoln and especially Acura.

Buick did have a performance past, but that is long gone.  They just have FWD-based CUVs now, nothing of significance.   That past isn't coming back..

[ccap41]

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I love old brick buildings and hate to see them run down and go to waste. 

[David]

This used to be a investment bank building, but since the pandemic, it is now vacant. This is next to the Dell Technology building that we used to have all 7 floors and now only have floor 4 where we have a data center and support group. Everyone else is permanent work from home. Never have to commute into the city any more and saves 2hrs a day for me. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

That past isn't coming back..

Tell that to the Charger.

[David]

A modern GSX based on a Cadillac CT5 would work, but it will never happen. Maybe as an EV it could.

While this was an AWD electric concept called Riviera, I could see a more muscular version of this as a GSX or GNX.

[balthazar]

Why would being powered by batteries have any effect on product placement/planning?

[ccap41]

The same reason being powered by diesel was advertised differently, see TDI's. 

[balthazar]

But there were gas & TD engines in the same vehicles (VW for example). 

I don't see the connection in saying 'We [Buick] aren't going to build a modern GS... unless it's electric powered.'
Either the vehicle has a business case / is where the brand wants to go, or it isn't. If Buick doesn't see people buying a gas GS because it's no longer what Buick buyers are asking for... why would those same people want an BE GS from Buick?

[balthazar]

[David]

Being that Buick is supposedly going to be all electric auto.

We had the Electra Concept revealed last year.

Now they tease us with this.

SUV or Car?

[balthazar]

Cars are dead.

[Robert Hall]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

But there were gas & TD engines in the same vehicles (VW for example). 

I don't see the connection in saying 'We [Buick] aren't going to build a modern GS... unless it's electric powered.'
Either the vehicle has a business case / is where the brand wants to go, or it isn't. If Buick doesn't see people buying a gas GS because it's no longer what Buick buyers are asking for... why would those same people want an BE GS from Buick?

I'm pretty sure GM is doing no further ICE development, so anything new would be a BE.  Buick is just going to be premium appliance CUVs...they aren't going to be doing sedans or coupes, at least not for the US market.

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

Tell that to the Charger.

the modern Charger was of a different time and place...GM is all in on generic FWD-based CUVs, and moving to all BE.... 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

Point was; Charger was a huge presence, it withered away, morphed into an anemic FWD wedge, disappeared for years during a halestrom of dullness, then returned with clenched fists.
Cadillac was almost all FWD sedans, now they are all RWD/AWD (sedans)... (two of them), including models at the leading edge of performance sports sedans. No one predicted it 25 years ago.

Anything is possible with drive, determination and a business case.

- - - - -
😴
 

Edited February 17, 2022 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

Dont forget that Mopar had partnered up with a dude named Carol.

 

I do not know how successful these Chargers were in the marketplace, nor do I know how successful they were regarding performance, but Shelby, Lutz, Iacocca did  bring new life in Mopar performance and in the Dodger brand. Slowly, but surely.

It was a humble start for Dodge with that Charger. And with the Shadow

 

But in no time, Dodge was a force to be reckoned with in the speed wars of the 1990s performance renaissance.

 

Electric or gasoline, Buick has a loooooooong way to go to get themselves into a position where people will look at Buick and see them for fast vehicles.  They bring out a GSX today, they will be laughed out of this universe.  

It took Dodge to start with very very humble beginnings, and here we are, we are laughing at those attempts...

                         "Charger was a huge presence, it withered away, morphed into an anemic FWD wedge"

yet Dodge did turn to a legend, (even as early as the '80s, Shelby was considered a legend, forgetting the fact that he was considered a legend in the '60s) to spruce up the Charger's performance and breathe life into Dodge that Lutz asked for his blessing for the Viper.

Not only did Dodge start producing performance cars, but Dodge was serious about this whole speed thing with its trucks too.

 

And these are all performance machines, trucks and cars, several of them,  in the late '80s and well into the late '90s and beyond. 

Buick stopped that image (as if it had a performance image anyway) with its single car in 1987...

To continue with the argument of us laughing at Buick for trying to give us a GSX, let us not forget that Hyundai's Genesis has been giving us "performance luxury" cars about a decade now, and we are all not taking Genesis serious.  

Buick is in a lull.  Has been since they eliminated the GNX from their portfolio. The calendar year when that happened was in 1987.  

In 1987, Madonna was causing a commotion with a song named causing a commotion. Not with half naked sexagenarian pics of herself to have an equal but younger washouted rapper stating the obvious that some things do not need to be shown...

At this juncture, for Buick, there is no business case to be made for a GSX reappearance. Gas or battery operated. Car or CUV.

Been too long for anybody to care about a single fast Buick...

Edited February 17, 2022 by oldshurst442

[David]

OUCH, this sucks.

Cargo Ship Full of Porsches and VWs Is On Fire and Adrift in the Atlantic (thedrive.com)

[balthazar]

It doesn't take decades of time, it takes a killer PRODUCT.

[riviera74]

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

It doesn't take decades of time, it takes a killer PRODUCT.

Other than the Corvette and the BOF trucks/SUVs, where is GM's killer product?

[balthazar]

CT4 / CT5, the Lambda SUVs are very competitive, Camaro is excellent, Hummer seems to be fairly incredible (if that's your thing).... Lyriq looks promising... I think it's more than just the 'Vette & full-size trucks.
But to my post- I was referring to jumping back into a segment that they haven't been in, in a long time (a Buick hi-performance model).