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William Maley

New York 2018: 2019 Cadillac XT4 Kicks Off A Product Renaissance: Comments

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It's encouraging that GM has developed a new motor here but the power specs are not as encouraging. If the torque band is lower and more punchy then I hope that bears it out. They could be releasing the all new engine in lower tune to make sure it doesn't self destruct, or it's the guinea pig for real world durability testing before it gets rolled out to other models within GM. The mpg doesn't look like it benefits from the detuning so we will just have to see what the deal is when the vehicle actually hits the street. Usually new motors match their old specs and even can improve on mpg and reliability without any detuning. 

Edited by regfootball

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1 hour ago, regfootball said:

It's encouraging that GM has developed a new motor here but the power specs are not as encouraging.  . 

GM already has a 2.0 turbo 4.  Isn't this the same thing already in many GM models ?  Odd that it would be 237hp in the XT4, since it is already 250-275 hp in other models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine#LTG

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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On 3/28/2018 at 11:55 AM, smk4565 said:

How can the CTS be 196 inches long and have a small back seat?

The exact same way the e-class has a small back seat.

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1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

GM already has a 2.0 turbo 4.  Isn't this the same thing already in many GM models ?  Odd that it would be 237hp in the XT4, since it is already 250-275 hp in other models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine#LTG

This 2.0t is all-new.

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3 hours ago, regfootball said:

It's encouraging that GM has developed a new motor here but the power specs are not as encouraging. If the torque band is lower and more punchy then I hope that bears it out. They could be releasing the all new engine in lower tune to make sure it doesn't self destruct, or it's the guinea pig for real world durability testing before it gets rolled out to other models within GM. The mpg doesn't look like it benefits from the detuning so we will just have to see what the deal is when the vehicle actually hits the street. Usually new motors match their old specs and even can improve on mpg and reliability without any detuning. 

We really need to dispense with the horsepower as a benchmark thing. It's not doing any of us any favors to be fixated on it. Lots of torque, way down low, is the best, way to go.

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True but the current 2.0 is rated as high as 295 lb ft in some applications.  The new mill doesn't crank that amount out either.  

2 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

GM already has a 2.0 turbo 4.  Isn't this the same thing already in many GM models ?  Odd that it would be 237hp in the XT4, since it is already 250-275 hp in other models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine#LTG

No I think this engine is new. 

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I wonder why they would do an all new 2.0. What would be the point.  

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27 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I wonder why they would do an all new 2.0. What would be the point.  

Clean sheet redesign to improve a number of engineering aspects, in all likelihood. Cadillac's not wasting money here.

Ironically, they did the exact same thing in the '60s; the '63 390 was completely redesigned but came out with the same displacement. I believe there a major component of the redesign was to allow larger future displacements, but there were other criteria.

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I want to see lighter interior tones and better lighting. There was probably very little breathing room for this debut. 

 

I think the XT5 has a light brown interior option on some trims right? Where the dash, pillars, seats and doors are light brown. That is a good interior, I want to see the XT4 version of that.

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This will actually be the third all-new 2.0t from GM. This new one has AFM.

As we see displacements congeal around even numbers, we'll see this happen more often. 

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Plastic on the rear bumper yeah, not all over the place.  The Q5 has way less plastic on it than an XT4.  And if Cadillac has an exclusive 4 cylinder (which is sort of a waste of R&D dollars unless it runs super quiet or something) why does it make less power than an Chevy 4-cylinder?

Cadillac has 258 lb-ft at 1,500 rpm?

Mercedes GLC makes 273 lb-ft at 1,300 - 4,000 rpm

BMW X3 makes 258 lb- ft at 1,450 - 4,800 rpm

Audi Q5 273 lb-ft at 1,600 - 4,500 rpm

Not surprised by who has the most torque at the lowest RPM

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3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We really need to dispense with the horsepower as a benchmark thing. It's not doing any of us any favors to be fixated on it. Lots of torque, way down low, is the best, way to go.

True, good thing someone is the BEST at doing that.

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9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

True, good thing someone is the BEST at doing that.

Still GM?

ATS 2.0T -295 lb-ft

 

Will you ever stop being a troll? A tuning decision is not indicative of engineering ability.

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

This will actually be the third all-new 2.0t from GM. This new one has AFM.

As we see displacements congeal around even numbers, we'll see this happen more often. 

i believe i read where it said this the AFM allows it to run on two cylinders?

if an engine is redesigned, it can possibly be

-lighter or smaller to fit in engine bay easier

-simpler

-cheaper

-easier to manuf.

-incorporate new technologies

-more power

-better mpg

Edited by regfootball
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2 minutes ago, regfootball said:

i believe i read where it said this the AFM allows it to run on two cylinders?

Could be. The new V8 can run on as few as one cylinder in a revolution.

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i remember when the GM 4 cyl DOHC's that followed the ill fated Quad 4's put out less power

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There were engineering reasons for that. They added balance shafts to smooth out the previously rough engine.  Once they got that sorted out they started increasing hp again.

Also, about 10 years ago...

"In December 2008, GM released a Turbo Upgrade Kit for the LNF engine which increases horsepower to 290 hp (220 kW) and torque to up to 340 ft⋅lb (460 N⋅m), depending on the model. The kit retails for $650 and includes remapped engine calibration and upgraded MAP sensors. The kit is covered by the cars' existing GM warranties."

And before you try to play the CLA/GLA43 card SMK... It took MB 10 years to catch up to and exceed the power output of a 2008 Cobalt SS.

A tuning decision is a tuning decision. It is not a indicator of engineering ability when a company has already proven itself able. 

Power delivery also matters and nearly every review of the CLA complains of turbo lag. So a fat lot of good that extra lb-ft is doing when it takes an extra 3 clicks of the mouse to get it.

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11 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Still GM?

ATS 2.0T -295 lb-ft

 

Will you ever stop being a troll? A tuning decision is not indicative of engineering ability.

CLA45? 355hp/332 lb-ft. 

11 hours ago, regfootball said:

i believe i read where it said this the AFM allows it to run on two cylinders?

if an engine is redesigned, it can possibly be

-simpler

Everything else you said is probably spot on but there is no simpler engines being made anymore. Everything is more and more complex.. you even mentioned the ability to run on 2cyl..lol 

Edited by ccap41

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I know you can tune an engine to any power level (within reason) but reliability and NVH go out the window if you extract more power than you should from an engine.

I have never driven a CLA, so I don't know what the turbo lag is like, but the M270 has a twin scroll turbo and makes 258 lb-ft @ 1,200 rpm so I can't imagine it is that bad.  And the M274 which is the sister engine to the CLA used in the C-class and GLC has very little lag and you don't really notice the turbo at all plus it won a Ward's 10 best engine award in 2017.  

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

CLA45? 355hp/332 lb-ft. 

 

375 hp/350 lb-ft now.  And that is probably going up in 2019 with the new A-class line.  Although I think it pointless to increase it.  If you want more power buy an AMG C-class.  Interesting thing is they are planning an A35 with like 300 hp which could be a sweet spot for that car.

Edited by smk4565

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23 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

CLA45? 355hp/332 lb-ft. 

 

Read my post after that.  GM was doing 340 lb-ft from a 2.0T 10 years ago. 

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13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Read my post after that.  GM was doing 340 lb-ft from a 2.0T 10 years ago. 

With a post-purchase modification. From GM or not. That's like saying the EcoBoost Mustangs are 335hp and 390 lb-ft with the Ford Performance tune for only $699. 

Depending what you want to believe from Ford...

 

2.3.PNG

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 

375 hp/350 lb-ft now.  And that is probably going up in 2019 with the new A-class line.  Although I think it pointless to increase it.  If you want more power buy an AMG C-class.  Interesting thing is they are planning an A35 with like 300 hp which could be a sweet spot for that car.

They're still only FWD, right?  

They already probably have some trick system to get power down but upping that more they're going to have to re-configure that out too. 

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10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I know you can tune an engine to any power level (within reason) but reliability and NVH go out the window if you extract more power than you should from an engine.

I have never driven a CLA, so I don't know what the turbo lag is like, but the M270 has a twin scroll turbo and makes 258 lb-ft @ 1,200 rpm so I can't imagine it is that bad.  And the M274 which is the sister engine to the CLA used in the C-class and GLC has very little lag and you don't really notice the turbo at all plus it won a Ward's 10 best engine award in 2017.  

375 hp/350 lb-ft now.  And that is probably going up in 2019 with the new A-class line.  Although I think it pointless to increase it.  If you want more power buy an AMG C-class.  Interesting thing is they are planning an A35 with like 300 hp which could be a sweet spot for that car.

The NVH of the old 2.0T in the Cobalt was actually pretty good for its day. 

Again, you don't need to take my word for it... look at all the articles regarding the turbo lag in that car

AutoWeek - CLA Turbo Lag - Whether sport or economy mode is selected, the Mercedes always seemed to be a half-gear shy of where it should have been, and the combination of turbo lag and wonky clutch take-up makes smooth low-speed driving difficult. Once on the road there's plenty of power to get into trouble, so it's not a fundamental output issue -- rather it's a lack of refinement between the engine and transmission. 

Cars.com - CLA Turbo LagDespite the turbocharged four-cylinder engine's stout 208 horsepower and 258 pounds-feet of torque, excessive drivetrain lag sullies the CLA250. A sustained toe on the gas can induce gratifying low-end punch, where the little Benz surges ahead even at 2,000 rpm. The problem, however, is getting to all that.

MercedesBlog.com CLA AMG45 Turbo Lag - To obtain the high power of 381 HP and the high torque of 475 Nm, relatively small Mercedes turbo engine operates with a big turbo which delivers a maximum pressure of 1.8 bar. But a big turbo means a high inertia and a big turbo lag which you feel at full throttle.

Car and Driver - GLA Turbo Lag - In its default Comfort mode, sluggish shifts accentuate the engine’s turbo lag

Consumer Reports - GLA Turbo LagBut the seven-speed dual-clutch automatic is unrefined and, combined with the engine's turbo lag, makes the GLA feel lethargic despite its quick acceleration times.

So yea, you could use sport mode all the time, but that will kill your fuel economy.  The reviews above tell me that Mercedes is still a long way off from perfecting this engine into something that is satisfying to drive on a daily basis.  I would be disappointed in Cadillac if the XT4 came out with reviews like what you see above on the GLA/CLA. 

All Cadillac needs to do is tune it similar to the GMC Terrain and they have already beaten Mercedes.

Car and Driver - GMC Terrain Turbo LagOur all-wheel-drive turbocharged 2.0-liter test vehicle achieved the top acceleration figures among its competitive set. Credit the Terrain’s minimal turbo lag and plentiful power, as well as the nine-speed automatic transmission’s ability to drop down a couple of gears quickly with a simple boot of the throttle.

TruckTrend - GMC Terrain Turbo LagWith 252 hp and 260 lb-ft of torque, its output lags behind the 3.6L V-6 that was optional in the previous Terrain, but you’d never know it from behind the wheel, thanks in part to that nine-speed auto. With fleet off-the-line reflexes, minimal turbo lag, and excellent passing power, the 2.0 is a surprising engine to find in the competent—but rarely fun—compact SUV segment. 

 

Mercedes-Benz... the best or is there a GMC in the comparison?

 

 

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

With a post-purchase modification. From GM or not. That's like saying the EcoBoost Mustangs are 335hp and 390 lb-ft with the Ford Performance tune for only $699. 

Depending what you want to believe from Ford...

 

2.3.PNG

Who cares? It is a dealer installed option fully supported by GM and covered by warranty.  It allows the buyer to choose a higher performance model that would require 92 octane or the more standard SS that can run on regular.  Same goes for the Mustang.   It is functionally the same choice as a CLA 250 or a CLA 43... Benz just makes two models out of it while GM lets you upgrade an existing model. (yes I know there are other upgrades on the 43 over the 250.)

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The CLA/GLA problem sounds more from the DCT transmission which I don’t know why they use in the first place rather than the fried and true 7-speed auto that they used from 2003 - 2018, and the 9-speed has replaced it in most cars now.

The GLC and C-class don’t have the lag and acceleration problems, a GLC300 can out accelerate a Terrain, not like it matters in that segment.  

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33 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The CLA/GLA problem sounds more from the DCT transmission which I don’t know why they use in the first place rather than the fried and true 7-speed auto that they used from 2003 - 2018, and the 9-speed has replaced it in most cars now.

The GLC and C-class don’t have the lag and acceleration problems, a GLC300 can out accelerate a Terrain, not like it matters in that segment.  

Really? You don't know why they didn't use the automatic from the 2003-2018 era?

Put on your deerstalker cap there Sherlock..... maybe you'll figure it out. 

The question was never and is never about raw performance in these crossovers. It is about drivability around town the way 99.9999999% of people use them.  A jumpy, laggy engine transmission combo is not going to be as satisfying as one with low lag and no jumpiness.  

The XT4 will do better than the GLA there and still have plenty of scoot. 

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18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The XT4 will do better than the GLA there and still have plenty of scoot. 

I'd assume you're correct but those are just guesses at this point as we're talking transmissions now and nobody has driven this XT4 matched to the brand new engine. 

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      QUARTER 4 (CALENDAR YEAR-TO-DATE) JANUARY - DECEMBER   2019 2018 %Change Volume   2019 2018 %Change Volume   Cascada 77 743 -89.6   2,535 4,136 -38.7   Enclave 10,143 14,420 -29.7   51,156 49,647 3.0   Encore 28,497 23,326 22.2   102,402 93,073 10.0   Envision 8,380 7,535 11.2   33,229 30,152 10.2   LaCrosse 463 2,118 -78.1   7,241 15,527 -53.4   Regal 1,514 3,110 -51.3   10,363 14,118 -26.6   Buick Total 49,074 51,257 -4.3   206,929 206,863 0.0   ATS 83 831 -90.0   1,134 10,859 -89.6   CT5 43 0 ***.*   43 0 ***.*   CT6 2,276 2,398 -5.1   7,951 9,668 -17.8   CTS 966 2,442 -60.4   6,965 11,219 -37.9   Escalade 8,889 9,573 -7.1   35,424 36,872 -3.9   XT4 8,895 7,573 17.5   31,987 7,785 310.9   XT5 11,168 13,582 -17.8   49,879 60,565 -17.6   XT6 7,169 0 ***.*   11,559 0 ***.*   XTS 1,062 5,063 -79.0   11,304 17,727 -36.2   Cadillac Total 40,551 41,462 -2.2   156,246 154,702 1.0   Blazer 23,008 27 ***.*   58,115 27 ***.*   Bolt EV 3,307 6,212 -46.8   16,418 18,019 -8.9   Camaro 11,474 11,135 3.0   48,265 50,963 -5.3   Colorado 25,484 30,004 -15.1   122,304 134,842 -9.3   Corvette 3,491 3,910 -10.7   17,988 18,791 -4.3   Cruze 2,699 32,955 -91.8   47,975 142,617 -66.4   Equinox 92,092 98,239 -6.3   346,048 332,618 4.0   Express 16,652 22,543 -26.1   77,457 81,239 -4.7   Impala 9,545 12,604 -24.3   44,978 56,556 -20.5   LCF 1,273 940 35.4   4,495 2,810 60.0   Malibu 34,314 37,084 -7.5   131,917 144,542 -8.7   Silverado HD 36,704 34,222 7.3   131,953 142,632 -7.5   Silverado LD 124,619 126,950 -1.8   438,686 442,943 -1.0   Silverado MD 2,018 6 ***.*   4,961 6 ***.*   Sonic 3,339 2,765 20.8   13,971 20,613 -32.2   Spark 11,016 5,174 112.9   31,281 23,602 32.5   Suburban 10,242 15,200 -32.6   51,928 60,633 -14.4   Tahoe 21,086 24,679 -14.6   101,189 104,153 -2.8   Traverse 33,631 39,536 -14.9   147,122 146,534 0.4   Trax 33,039 22,378 47.6   116,816 89,916 29.9   Volt 370 5,063 -92.7   4,910 18,306 -73.2   Chevrolet Total 499,404 531,985 -6.1   1,958,925 2,036,023 -3.8   Acadia 19,471 25,128 -22.5   99,429 88,621 12.2   Canyon 6,525 8,219 -20.6   32,825 33,492 -2.0   Savana 3,136 2,905 8.0   24,226 19,684 23.1   Sierra HD 18,228 16,550 10.1   59,871 60,389 -0.9   Sierra LD 50,494 50,762 -0.5   172,452 159,165 8.3   Terrain 28,060 31,595 -11.2   101,470 114,314 -11.2   Yukon 20,966 25,366 -17.3   74,673 80,784 -7.6   GMC Total 146,880 160,525 -8.5   564,946 556,449 1.5   GM Vehicle Total* 735,909 785,229 -6.3   2,887,046 2,954,037 -2.3                     78 selling days for the QUARTER 4 this year and 77 for same QUARTER last year.  
  • Recent Status Updates

    • trinacriabob  »  balthazar

      It's not possible to message you.  At least, it wasn't possible to do that last summer.  So I'll post it here.  I had a crazy layover back in June at PHL ... for about 8 hours ... and wondered how far into NJ you were from Philly.  What I did is get the PHLash day pass and did the self-guided tour of Center City before heading back to the airport.  I stayed too close to the center because of time. I actually wasted time by going into South Philly.  I wanted to venture out onto the Main Line and see Villanova.  That rail line was included on the pass I bought.  I had to manage my time because of the late afternoon flight to the Coast.  Cheers.
      · 1 reply
    • Drew Dowdell

      Merry Christmas!
      · 1 reply
    • Robert Hall

      Last work day of the year.  My client wants me back in January...which is good, really like working from home
       
      · 1 reply
    • Drew Dowdell

      Well today is the day. Last day at Direct Energy.
      · 0 replies
    • Drew Dowdell

      Wheels for the week: 2020 Toyota Corolla XLE. We'll be taking this one on a trip to Virginia and testing out how close to the 37mpg highway rating we'll get. It's equipped with Toyota Safety Sense which means I'll have radar cruise control for the trip (Yay!). The shocking part is the price: $28,084 for a Corolla that doesn't even have the biggest engine. But it's got heated seats, so that will keep Albert Maisto happy.
      · 0 replies
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