Cadillac News: 2022 Cadillac CT4 and CT5 Blackwing Bring A Performance Edge

[Robert Hall]

54 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 

And 81,000 of the 129,000 vehicles Cadillac sold last year were front drive based.

That's a pretty sad statistic.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5 is a C-Class competitor with C63 S level performance but it is priced higher than that. 
 

As far as soft close doors go, they are part of a $3650 option package on the Escalade Premium Luxury trim, or included on Platinum, and not even offered on any other Cadillac.  Mercedes does most options as al a carte so you aren’t forced in to big option packages to get stuff you don’t want.  

How many times does this have to explained to you? The CT5 is a tweener size that is closer in size to a E Class than the C-Class. And what you call "al a carte", I call "nickel and diming" you to death. Your bar moving changes nothing here.

 

Again, charging extra for two USB-C ports that should already been in the back of a supposed four door family sedan and $700 for airbags. BTW, those soft close doors are not offered on the E-Class at all unless you opt for the AMG models. That makes those doors a $30-50K option if you really want them since they can only be had on the AMG. Want to try that again?

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The CLA45 is faster around Virginia International Raceway than the CT4-V, CT5-V, Jaguar F-Type R, Alfa Romeo Gulia Quadrafolio and 718 Cayman S.  
 

And 81,000 of the 129,000 vehicles Cadillac sold last year were front drive based.

Guess it didn't dawn on you that I am talking about their cars and not their CUVs/SUVs. Not one FWD Cadillac sedan or coupe in the last 13 years. Furthermore (since you wanted to go there), how many FWD based car/CUVs constitute the total number sold by Benz? Oh and that FWD original CLA45 comes in at the same price (just a few grand under) as the CT4 Blackwing so get back to us when that comparison comes out instead of comparing it to a lower trim CT4-V.

Edited February 7, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

Mercedes sold 75,000 FWD-based vehicles in the (down) year of '20 in the U.S. alone. 

Vast majority of these in both cases are AWD, but at least Cadillac isn't building FWD-based sports sedans. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

How many times does this have to explained to you? The CT5 is a tweener size that is closer in size to a E Class than the C-Class. And what you call "al a carte", I call "nickel and diming" you to death. Your bar moving changes nothing here.

 

Again, charging extra for two USB-C ports that should already been in the back of a supposed four door family sedan and $700 for airbags. BTW, those soft close doors are not offered on the E-Class at all unless you opt for the AMG models. That makes those doors a $30-50K option if you really want them since they can only be had on the AMG. Want to try that again?

Guess it didn't dawn on you that I am talking about their cars and not their CUVs/SUVs. Not one FWD Cadillac sedan or coupe in the last 13 years. Furthermore (since you wanted to go there), how many FWD based car/CUVs constitute the total number sold by Benz? Oh and that FWD original CLA45 comes in at the same price (just a few grand under) as the CT4 Blackwing so get back to us when that comparison comes out instead of comparing it to a lower trim CT4-V.

The CT5 is exactly the same size as the E-class, but it starts $20,000 cheaper.  The Hyundai Sonata and CT5 are also the same size and are only $10,000 different in starting price.  Unless the Sonata is a CT5 competitor, then the CT5 is not an E-class competitor.  And that is correct on the soft close doors it is only on E53/E63, I thought the E450 offered it. 

Why do cars differ from SUVs?  SUVs are the majority of sales?   If I wanted a performance SUV (which I don't since I don't like SUVs) then Cadillac has no option.  And 80% of Cadillac sales are SUVs. 

 Also offering a FWD product doesn't have any effect on the rear drive products, unless they replace rear drive with front drive.  The CLA was an added model, the C/E/S-classes are all still there and all still rear drive as always, nothing changed.  Corvette sells the Spark and Sonic in the same showroom as the Corvette, but that doesn't mean the Corvette isn't a performance car.  Now if they made the Corvette front drive, or if Mercedes made the E-class front drive, then that is a problem and I would have issue with that.

Fair comparison to pit a $65k CLA45 against a $65k CT4 V-Blackwing and see who wins on a track.  The CLA45 on VIR ran a 2.58.2 and the most recent CTS-V ran a 2.56.8 so that little FWD based Mercedes is only 1.4 seconds a lap down to the fastest Cadillac ever.   And the CLA is faster than the ATS-V was around that track.  Thus my point that the CLA is the CT4 competitor, C-class is the CT5 competitor. 

[oldshurst442]

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/brands/2019-full-year-global-mercedes-benz-sales-worldwide/

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In 2019, Mercedes-Benz sales worldwide increased by 1.3% to a record 2,339,562 cars.

 

Sounds impressive, right?

Quote

 At the same time, Mercedes-Benz maintained its leading position among the luxury car brands for the fourth year in a row.

pretty phoquing awesome, right?

UNTIL...you get to THIS statement down below...

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 Last year’s model offensive with a total of more than ten new or revised models led to a significant boost in unit sales, particularly of Compact Cars and SUVs, and contributed to the overall sales growth. 

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In 2019, every third Mercedes-Benz vehicle sold globally was an SUV. With sales of about 783,700 units the GLA, GLB, GLC, GLC Coupé, EQC, GLE, GLE Coupé, GLS and G-Class, the SUVs were Mercedes-Benz’s strongest-selling segment in 2019 (-4.5%).

Selling SUVs is not that big of a deal anymore...

The REAL focus here SHOULD be...and a complete phoquing lie when analysts keep on banging the luxury car brand thing...

 

Quote

 

Record Mercedes-Benz Compact Cars Sales in 2019 

In 2019, every fourth Mercedes-Benz sold was a Compact Car: More than 667,000 units of the A- and B-Class, CLA, CLA Shooting Brake, GLA and GLB were delivered last year (+9.5%). This represents an increase of more than 30,000 unit sales when compared to the prior record established in 2016.

 

 

A Class and B Class cars are NOT luxury cars.  Taxi liveries of of the E Class and NOT luxury cars. The C Class is NOT downright luxury.  Its Pontiac level in MOST European and Asian markets.  The article does say that the C Class and E Class enjoyed sales increases as well. But when one peels off the REAL story, one realizes that Mercedes Benz does NOT sell nearly as many LUXURY cars as many idiots in the industry claim they sell...

Im not going too much into detail, Ive done a similar exercise a year ago. I dont have to assume and guesstimate. Ive got cold hard numbers to work with right here.

2 339 562 - 667 000 = 1 672 562 

Im NOT going to minus the taxi liveries and the Chevrolet/Pontiac trim leveled C Class and E Class and GLA and GLB CUV sales.   (AND...I wonder of commercial truck sales are included in this figure as well...)

But REMEMBER...THAT 1 672 562 sales number becomes soooooo much SMALLER.  

One thing that is being FORGOTTEN in the mix is that Daimler in 2021 will be (hot news right from the press)...Daimler will be spun off into its OWN brand.  What will Daimler be peddling?  The trucks. The busses. The sanitation vehicles, the lories, the public transportation busses, the military vehicles.

WHY?

BECAUSE APPARENTLY, image plays a BIG factor and NEWBIES that want to buy new cars today  and folk that have REALIZED that A Class and B Class vehicles are NOT luxury are NOW starting to make a  NEGATIVE connection to the commercial stuff that  the company builds.  Most of that comes from investors and the EV folk so M-B is off shooting Daimler in one direction while M-B could keep a "clean" image to sell EVs and to get investor money to build EVs.

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/daimler-become-mercedes-benz-split-trucks-unit-cars

 

Quote

 

Daimler plans to split up into the world’s largest makers of luxury cars and commercial vehicles, renaming itself Mercedes-Benz and separately listing its truck unit by year-end.

The plan to distribute a majority of Daimler Truck to shareholders is the most significant shake-up Ola Kallenius has made since taking over the top job at the German giant almost two years ago.

The spinoff will appease investors who long advocated for the move, citing a stubbornly low valuation for the group company. While Daimler recently tweaked its corporate structure to give more independence to its main divisions, it was viewed as a half measure and did little to boost sentiment.

 

 

 

If...Mercedes is the WORLD'S most selling LUXURY car company...then WHAT is the BIG deal regarding commercial trucks?  

BECAUSE REALITY is that MOST Mercedes branded cars EVERYBODY sees on the roads ARE NOT LUXURY cars. But AVERAGE JOE and COMMERCIAL type vehicles.   FAR from the "luxury" nameplate EVERYONE seems to be tooting.  Spinning off Daimler and renaming the busses and sanitation trucks as Daimler would eliminate some of that non-luxury appeal and make it easier to sell EVs to folk that know nothing about Mercedes history... 

Which is IRONIC to what we are talking about here about Cadillac... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Mercedes sold 75,000 FWD-based vehicles in the (down) year of '20 in the U.S. alone. 

Vast majority of these in both cases are AWD, but at least Cadillac isn't building FWD-based sports sedans. 

75,000 out of 275,000, not 80,000 out of 129,000.   And not counting Mercedes 50k Vans sales, since MB Vans are were on fire last year with the rise of home delivery I imagine.  

Cadillac builds 2 rear drive sedans, Mercedes builds 5 rear drive sedans (if you count CLS separate of E), 1 rear drive wagon, 3 rear drive coupes, 4 rear drive convertibles and the tis after taking away the SLC and S-class coupe/convertible which are still on dealer lots..  So 13 rear drive cars to 2.  Who is more committed to performance?

[surreal1272]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5 is exactly the same size as the E-class, but it starts $20,000 cheaper.  The Hyundai Sonata and CT5 are also the same size and are only $10,000 different in starting price.  Unless the Sonata is a CT5 competitor, then the CT5 is not an E-class competitor.  And that is correct on the soft close doors it is only on E53/E63, I thought the E450 offered it. 

Why do cars differ from SUVs?  SUVs are the majority of sales?   If I wanted a performance SUV (which I don't since I don't like SUVs) then Cadillac has no option.  And 80% of Cadillac sales are SUVs. 

 Also offering a FWD product doesn't have any effect on the rear drive products, unless they replace rear drive with front drive.  The CLA was an added model, the C/E/S-classes are all still there and all still rear drive as always, nothing changed.  Corvette sells the Spark and Sonic in the same showroom as the Corvette, but that doesn't mean the Corvette isn't a performance car.  Now if they made the Corvette front drive, or if Mercedes made the E-class front drive, then that is a problem and I would have issue with that.

Fair comparison to pit a $65k CLA45 against a $65k CT4 V-Blackwing and see who wins on a track.  The CLA45 on VIR ran a 2.58.2 and the most recent CTS-V ran a 2.56.8 so that little FWD based Mercedes is only 1.4 seconds a lap down to the fastest Cadillac ever.   And the CLA is faster than the ATS-V was around that track.  Thus my point that the CLA is the CT4 competitor, C-class is the CT5 competitor. 

Your arms must be getting pretty tired from all that bar moving. The whole price to car size ratio has already been explained to you. My original points stand but hey, Benz only “added” a FWD car to their sedan lineup lol.

[surreal1272]

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

75,000 out of 275,000, not 80,000 out of 129,000.   And not counting Mercedes 50k Vans sales, since MB Vans are were on fire last year with the rise of home delivery I imagine.  

Cadillac builds 2 rear drive sedans, Mercedes builds 5 rear drive sedans (if you count CLS separate of E), 1 rear drive wagon, 3 rear drive coupes, 4 rear drive convertibles and the tis after taking away the SLC and S-class coupe/convertible which are still on dealer lots..  So 13 rear drive cars to 2.  Who is more committed to performance?

And stop with the embellishment. You have the C, E, CLS, and S. Four. Everything else is a derivative of those four and half of those are being (or have already been) phased out.

 

Nice job sidestepping the options /package debate though. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

6 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

If...Mercedes is the WORLD'S most selling LUXURY car company...then WHAT is the BIG deal regarding commercial trucks?  

 

It is an investor move really.  Daimler is the #1 truck company in the world, as a stand alone company would be worth about $35 billion, of which Mercedes-Benz would be the largest shareholder.  Also they will still be able to share any technology with each other.  And Mercedes-Benz (the corporation) can push toward EV cars and get investor money as the next Tesla.  

Also Karl Benz invented the car, Gottlieb Daimler and Wilhem Maybach didn't put their car on sale until 1889, so Benz's name should be on the company anyway.  

[balthazar]

Benz couldn’t have “invented” the car when there were cars that pre-dated it, but keep swilling that kool-aid.

- - - - -

The point where everyone gets confused is; mercedes is akin to General Motors, not to Cadillac. Mercedes is a mass-volume mainstream corporation, not a brand. It’s certainly not a ‘luxury brand’.

[smk4565]

19 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Your arms must be getting pretty tired from all that bar moving. The whole price to car size ratio has already been explained to you. My original points stand but hey, Benz only “added” a FWD car to their sedan lineup lol.

So a $36,000 CT5 is direct competition to a $55,000 E350?  Or a $48k CT5-V to a $74k E53? (all before options).  Are buyers cross shopping that big a price gap?  

[smk4565]

26 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And stop with the embellishment. You have the C, E, CLS, and S. Four. Everything else is a derivative of those four and half of those are being (or have already been) phased out.

 

Nice job sidestepping the options /package debate though. 

AMG GT 4-door is their 5th sedan.  Also the Nurburgring record holder for a 4-door.  If the Blackwing superior to AMG, then the Blackwing will beat it.   And Mercedes has 2 EV sedans coming in a year or so, so they will have to phase out CLS and AMG GT-4 because they have too many sedans.  

[balthazar]

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So a $36,000 CT5 is direct competition to a $55,000 E350?  Or a $48k CT5-V to a $74k E53? (all before options).  Are buyers cross shopping that big a price gap?  

Cadillac base prices are vapor- Cadillac doesn’t build a $36K CT5, just like Tesla doesn’t build any $37K Model 3’s.

But to address the question; cross-shopping doesn’t happen going uphill, but give a -say- $60K shopper a better driving car at $48K in the same segment and yeah; cross-shopping does occur. Remember, Cadillac wasn’t in the lux sports sedan segment at all 20 years ago - it was all bmw & mb.

Edited February 7, 2021 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So a $36,000 CT5 is direct competition to a $55,000 E350?  Or a $48k CT5-V to a $74k E53? (all before options).  Are buyers cross shopping that big a price gap?  

A $60K Corvette competes with the $100K Porsche 911, so yes they are cross shopping. I just do not know how many more times this has to be explained to you. If a Maybach was once able to "compete" with a Rolls Royce, despite the HUGE price gulf between, then a Cadillac can sure as hell compete with an overpriced Benz.

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

AMG GT 4-door is their 5th sedan.  Also the Nurburgring record holder for a 4-door.  If the Blackwing superior to AMG, then the Blackwing will beat it.   And Mercedes has 2 EV sedans coming in a year or so, so they will have to phase out CLS and AMG GT-4 because they have too many sedans.  

Are you kidding me? A similar in power AMG GT 4-door STARTS at $140K. It better beat everything Cadillac has. We won't even get into the oft delayed EVs from Benz. Vaporware does not count.

[surreal1272]

Moving on from the wash, rinse, repeat nature of debating the same s*** with a Daimler fanatic, I just dig the fact that a six speed manual comes standard on the Blackwing!

Edited February 7, 2021 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

45 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It is an investor move really. 

 

 

   

Edited February 7, 2021 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

16 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Moving on from the wash, rinse, repeat nature of debating the same s*** with a Daimler fanatic, I just dig the fact that a six speed manual comes standard on the Blackwing!

Try getting a manual in an AMG Mercedes sedan... 

 

[surreal1272]

35 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Try getting a manual in an AMG Mercedes sedan... 

 

But you get to choose the al a carte thing like rear side impact airbags and USB-C ports (for those unsuspecting backseat passengers) though so it is wash lol!

Edited February 7, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Cadillac base prices are vapor- Cadillac doesn’t build a $36K CT5, just like Tesla doesn’t build any $37K Model 3’s.

But to address the question; cross-shopping doesn’t happen going uphill, but give a -say- $60K shopper a better driving car at $48K in the same segment and yeah; cross-shopping does occur. Remember, Cadillac wasn’t in the lux sports sedan segment at all 20 years ago - it was all bmw & mb.

That is true for everyone, no one really stocks base models, but it is starting point for reference.  The Mercedes is BMW options list is probably longer than anyone outside of Porsche.  I also don't know how many people are looking at a $60k 5-series or E-class and then decide to spend $48k on a Cadillac.  But that is Cadillac's (and Lexus, Acura and Infiniti) best move to undercut on price.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

A $60K Corvette competes with the $100K Porsche 911, so yes they are cross shopping. I just do not know how many more times this has to be explained to you. If a Maybach was once able to "compete" with a Rolls Royce, despite the HUGE price gulf between, then a Cadillac can sure as hell compete with an overpriced Benz.

Are you kidding me? A similar in power AMG GT 4-door STARTS at $140K. It better beat everything Cadillac has. We won't even get into the oft delayed EVs from Benz. Vaporware does not count.

I don't think anything competes with Rolls-Royce.  The original Maybach did, but the current Maybach does not.  Nor does Mercedes claim it to, the point of Maybach is to elevate the brand over BMW and Audi and maybe go after Bentley. 

Also Cadillac is more than welcome to make a sedan that starts at $140k, no one is stopping them.  They can go up market if they want, but instead they killed the CT6 and replaced the CTS with a $10k cheaper CT5.  So I think we know what direction Cadillac wants to go.  And same goes for Lincoln or Acura, they don't have to build all their products on a Ford/Honda chassis with a turbo 4 or share switchgear, they choose to do that.  Which is why most buyers choose not to buy their product.  And that's fair both ways.

[oldshurst442]

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The original Maybach did

100 years ago.  That was your grandfather's time.  The time of Duesenbergs of which the Duesys would put Rolls Royces to shame.  Which nobody today references other than a small teeny weeny part of the automotive enthusiast world.    I would stop using Maybach in that kind of reference  because Duesenbergs are as relevant today as Maybachs are...  And quite honestly, Maybachs were ugly.  Duesy's were pretty.

27 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Also Cadillac is more than welcome to make a sedan that starts at $140k, no one is stopping them.

YOU found it strange that a CT5-V Blackwing could be optioned to $125 000.  

28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 They can go up market if they want, but instead they killed the CT6 and replaced the CTS with a $10k cheaper CT5.  So I think we know what direction Cadillac wants to go.

Well... dont forget that a Celestiq is coming...

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/03/cadillac-celestiq-electric-flagship-sedan-in-development/comment-page-2/   

 

Quote

 

General Motors plans to announce the development of the Cadillac Celestiq flagship luxury sedan during its EV Day press event in Michigan today.

The Cadillac Celestiq will represent “the ultimate expression of Cadillac design and technology, with a bold, dramatic presence, and unparalleled refinement and innovation,”

 

 

A BOUTIQUE vehicle personally and custom built to the buyer.  

Several posters in this forum questioned this vehicle, including yourself,  because of where Cadillac was 30 years ago. However, the new 2021 Escalade PROVES that the engineers and product developers over at Cadillac finally understand what Cadillac was and is all about.    YOU keep on mentioning Maybach, but fail to realize that Cadillac is REALLY going back to its beginnings.  

The Corvette C8 also proves what the best from General Motors could accomplish further proving that the Celestiq WILL be a true Rolls Royce competitor.  

The Blackwing CT6 was done for because of the push to EVs.  The Cadillac money, R&D energy that is the engineering and product developers needed to step away from the CT6 to further concentrate the oush further to EVs, the BEV3 platform, the Lyriq and the especially the Celestiq.   BECASUE the Celestiq is to be a BOUTIQUE, custom built by hand, all the PROPER LOGISTICS need to be in place for that to happen...

YOU see it as GM beancounting and downsizing.  Reality says that GM is being SERIOUS in giving Cadillac the PROPER tools to actually BECOME Cadillac again...

  

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

That is true for everyone, no one really stocks base models, but it is starting point for reference.  The Mercedes is BMW options list is probably longer than anyone outside of Porsche.  I also don't know how many people are looking at a $60k 5-series or E-class and then decide to spend $48k on a Cadillac.  But that is Cadillac's (and Lexus, Acura and Infiniti) best move to undercut on price.

The reference starting point would be ATP per model (with some allowance toward how each is equipped... but I submit it does not have to be an exact match). That tells you what the consumer is willing to spend. Stripped with zero options and every box checked is irrelevant. IDK of those per-model figures are available. 

 

48 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think anything competes with Rolls-Royce.  The original Maybach did, but the current Maybach does not.

Yeah- the Maybach 1.0 was a rebadge with a 1970's 2-tone paint job. No coupe, no convertible, no SUV. It didn't compete. 
But more to the point- what a monstrous missed opportunity for MB; RR sold 5152 cars last year; there's a market there for sure. This is a huge feather in BMW's cap vs. Daimler.

The problem here is two-fold; 'mercedes' doesn't have anywhere near the rep / clout as RR, and the name 'Maybach' now ranks up there with Edsel as a failed brand. It can never return as an independent brand.

Frankly, Rolls needs to charge more, as they also lose money on every car (2019 profit / 2020 production), but half of what Daimler did building a cheaper car.  

48 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Nor does Mercedes claim it to

When the news broke that Maybach was being eliminated, Daimler absolutely stated they would "expand the s-class, still hoping to compete with the likes of Rolls Royce & Bentley, aiming to capture more of the market that the 2 storied British brands have successfully expanded into with 'lower end' models that range between $180K and $300K." [ ~ WSJ]

The '21 s650 Maybach starts at $202K and you can only build it up to $230K [ I said 'only'], so Daimler is leaving $70K on the table.

Of course, they'd never get that in this segment.

Maybach was a great opportunity, but it was a miserable, mismanaged failure.

Edited February 7, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

8 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You found it strange that a CT5-V Blackwing could be optioned to $125 000.  

Well... dont forget that a Celestiq is coming...

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/03/cadillac-celestiq-electric-flagship-sedan-in-development/comment-page-2/  

 

 

A BOUTIQUE vehicle personally and custom built to the buyer.  

Several posters in this forum questioned this vehicle, including yourself,  because of where Cadillac was 30 years ago. However, the new 2021 Escalade PROVES that the engineers and product developers over at Cadillac finally understand what Cadillac was and is all about.    YOU keep on mentioning Maybach, but fail to realize that Cadillac is REALLY going back to its beginnings.  

The Corvette C8 also proves what the best from General Motors could accomplish further proving that the Celestiq WILL be a true Rolls Royce competitor.  

YOU see it as GM beancounting and downsizing.  Reality says that GM is being SERIOUS in giving Cadillac the PROPER tools to actually BECOME Cadillac again...

  

Because the CT5 starts at $36k and the interior is nowhere near what you should get in a $100k car, let alone $125k.   If the CT5 had an interior on par with the 2021 Escalade, then it would be a worthy A6/E/5 competitor.

They better bring it with Celestiq, and I hope they do.  Cadillac needs serious cars, not Chevy/GMC re-engineered products.    Celestiq will not be a Rolls-Royce competitor.  They couldn't even compete with an A8 on the CT6, now all of a sudden they are going after the Phantom?  

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

not Chevy/GMC re-engineered products.

Get new material...

 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think anything competes with Rolls-Royce.  The original Maybach did, but the current Maybach does not.  Nor does Mercedes claim it to, the point of Maybach is to elevate the brand over BMW and Audi and maybe go after Bentley. 

Also Cadillac is more than welcome to make a sedan that starts at $140k, no one is stopping them.  They can go up market if they want, but instead they killed the CT6 and replaced the CTS with a $10k cheaper CT5.  So I think we know what direction Cadillac wants to go.  And same goes for Lincoln or Acura, they don't have to build all their products on a Ford/Honda chassis with a turbo 4 or share switchgear, they choose to do that.  Which is why most buyers choose not to buy their product.  And that's fair both ways.

Pay attention to what I said. The original Maybach was built to compete with RR but was far cheaper, something you were clearly okay with, yet somehow the CT5 can’t compete with the E Class because it is also cheaper? Olds is right. Get new material because what you’ve said on this entire thread is old, outdated, and at times just flat out wrong. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Because the CT5 starts at $36k and the interior is nowhere near what you should get in a $100k car, let alone $125k.   If the CT5 had an interior on par with the 2021 Escalade, then it would be a worthy A6/E/5 competitor.

They better bring it with Celestiq, and I hope they do.  Cadillac needs serious cars, not Chevy/GMC re-engineered products.    Celestiq will not be a Rolls-Royce competitor.  They couldn't even compete with an A8 on the CT6, now all of a sudden they are going after the Phantom?  

Except it’s not a $36K caddy competing with a $100K car. It’s an $85K Blackwing that does and until you’ve actually sat in said Blackwing, you are just talking out of thin air about the interior. Shall we bring up how plain Jane a base E Class interior looks? Nothing but black everywhere I see. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Because the CT5 starts at $36k and the interior is nowhere near what you should get in a $100k car, let alone $125k.   If the CT5 had an interior on par with the 2021 Escalade, then it would be a worthy A6/E/5 competitor.

They better bring it with Celestiq, and I hope they do.  Cadillac needs serious cars, not Chevy/GMC re-engineered products.    Celestiq will not be a Rolls-Royce competitor.  They couldn't even compete with an A8 on the CT6, now all of a sudden they are going after the Phantom?  

But a badge reengineered S Class is okay for the likes of the Maybach name though right?

 

Again, get new material. 

[ccap41]

On 2/7/2021 at 9:39 AM, balthazar said:

Mercedes sold 75,000 FWD-based vehicles in the (down) year of '20 in the U.S. alone. 

Vast majority of these in both cases are AWD, but at least Cadillac isn't building FWD-based sports sedans. 

Knock it all you'd like, the CLA45 is a pretty bad-ass little sedan. 

[balthazar]

CT4-V Blackwing is better.

[David]

Loving this commercial

 

[balthazar]

^ It’s fun, but hands-off driving features (or hands-on, like at Tesla) is stupid.

[ccap41]

28 minutes ago, balthazar said:

CT4-V Blackwing is better.

At what? 

I mean, I think I'd prefer the RWD CT4-Vwith a manual transmission as well but that doesn't take anything away from how bad-@ss the CLA45 is. 

[David]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

At what? 

I mean, I think I'd prefer the RWD CT4-Vwith a manual transmission as well but that doesn't take anything away from how bad-@ss the CLA45 is. 

Define what is bad ass about the CLA45?

I think your meaning AMG CLA45 and even then that is just a turd of a Jellybean style wise. Nothing that makes it look any hotter compared to the Cadillac.

And dare we say a true from the start RWD for Cadillac, True from the Start FWD for the CLA!

AMG CLA45

CT4-V

CT4-V Blackwing

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

CT4-V Blackwing is better.

 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

At what? 

I mean, I think I'd prefer the RWD CT4-Vwith a manual transmission as well but that doesn't take anything away from how bad-@ss the CLA45 is. 

The Alpha platform is superbly weighted and balanced, one of the absolute best balanced platforms in the industry. The FWD based CLA does not have that. 

The Alpha platform does everything that the enthusiast crowd loved about BMWs from 2003 before BMWs got heavy and lost their steering feel.  But Pole movers like SMK pulled up the goal and decided that flabby 3-series were the new ideal. 

[smk4565]

23 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Pay attention to what I said. The original Maybach was built to compete with RR but was far cheaper, something you were clearly okay with, yet somehow the CT5 can’t compete with the E Class because it is also cheaper? Olds is right. Get new material because what you’ve said on this entire thread is old, outdated, and at times just flat out wrong. 

Except it’s not a $36K caddy competing with a $100K car. It’s an $85K Blackwing that does and until you’ve actually sat in said Blackwing, you are just talking out of thin air about the interior. Shall we bring up how plain Jane a base E Class interior looks? Nothing but black everywhere I see. 

The 2005 Maybach 62 cost MORE than the 2005 Rolls-Royce Phantom by $46,250.   And the base model Maybach 57 had the same price as the Phantom.  Then 2 years later Maybach put the 57S and 62S on sale and the 57S was 40k more than a Phantom and the 62S was about $100,000 more than the Phantom.  I don't know why you think the Maybach's were cheaper than a Rolls.  

As far as the CT5 goes, The CTS undercut the 5-series and E-class by $10k, and the CT5 undercuts the CTS by $10k.   If Cadillac wanted an E-class competitor why did they price it lower than the CTS?  Why not upgrade the vehicle and move it up market.  

 

 

23 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

But a badge reengineered S Class is okay for the likes of the Maybach name though right?

 

Again, get new material. 

The Maybach name is a trim level.  Why is GMC Yukon Denali a good idea and S-class Maybach not a good idea?  It is the same thing.

[David]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The 2005 Maybach 62 cost MORE than the 2005 Rolls-Royce Phantom by $46,250.   And the base model Maybach 57 had the same price as the Phantom.  Then 2 years later Maybach put the 57S and 62S on sale and the 57S was 40k more than a Phantom and the 62S was about $100,000 more than the Phantom.  I don't know why you think the Maybach's were cheaper than a Rolls.  

As far as the CT5 goes, The CTS undercut the 5-series and E-class by $10k, and the CT5 undercuts the CTS by $10k.   If Cadillac wanted an E-class competitor why did they price it lower than the CTS?  Why not upgrade the vehicle and move it up market.  

 

 

The Maybach name is a trim level.  Why is GMC Yukon Denali a good idea and S-class Maybach not a good idea?  It is the same thing.

And there you go moving the field goal around the yard to justify you avoiding answering real questions and pushing your own Kool-Aid Daimler agenda.

🙄

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

The Alpha platform is superbly weighted and balanced, one of the absolute best balanced platforms in the industry. The FWD based CLA does not have that. 

The Alpha platform does everything that the enthusiast crowd loved about BMWs from 2003 before BMWs got heavy and lost their steering feel.  But Pole movers like SMK pulled up the goal and decided that flabby 3-series were the new ideal. 

The CLA45 is faster around a racetrack than the Alpha platform ATS-V, the CT4-V and CT5-V.  So if the Alpha platform was that good, shouldn't a 464 hp ATS-V be faster around the track than a 382 hp CLA45?  

Also I don't t think Cadillac owners were asking for an E90 3-series with a cheaper interior.  Which is why the ATS tanked, wrong car for the market, and the CT4 sales are tanking and it hasn't even been on sale long.  

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

The Alpha platform is superbly weighted and balanced, one of the absolute best balanced platforms in the industry. The FWD based CLA does not have that. 

The Alpha platform does everything that the enthusiast crowd loved about BMWs from 2003 before BMWs got heavy and lost their steering feel.  But Pole movers like SMK pulled up the goal and decided that flabby 3-series were the new ideal. 

Oh I've never said the Alpha platform cars weren't of the best in the industry. Just the broad statement "CT4-V Blackwing is better" is awfully generalized. 

Also, I'm not trying to take a single thing away from the CT4-VB, I'm just saying the CLA45 isn't one that should really be criticized as it's great in its own way. Yeah, it's roots are "wrong wheel drive" but it's received great reviews for being an absolute hoot to drive. 

[ccap41]

2 hours ago, David said:

Define what is bad ass about the CLA45?

I think your meaning AMG CLA45 and even then that is just a turd of a Jellybean style wise. Nothing that makes it look any hotter compared to the Cadillac.

And dare we say a true from the start RWD for Cadillac, True from the Start FWD for the CLA!

AMG CLA45

CT4-V

CT4-V Blackwing

First of all, I'm not dismissing the CT4-VB. I'm saying the CLA45 isn't one to pick on. It's freakin quick(0-60 in 4 seconds flat - yes, 0.2 slower than the CT4-VB, negligible unless you're smk), AWD system capable of "drift mode", and it still receives all sorts of praise for it's handling while being wrong-wheel drive-based. 

Looks are subjective and I'm not a fan of the CT4's overall styling. It just doesn't do much for me nor does the CLA. CT5 is better with the longer proportions. 

[smk4565]

10 minutes ago, David said:

And there you go moving the field goal around the yard to justify you avoiding answering real questions and pushing your own Kool-Aid Daimler agenda.

🙄

What goal post, it was stated that Maybach was cheaper than Rolls and that is the same as Cadillac being cheaper than Mercedes.  Except the Maybach was NOT CHEAPER than a Rolls, they were priced the same.  Cadillac prices their cars below the Germans not the same like Maybach did when they went against Rolls-Royce.  

[surreal1272]

32 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The 2005 Maybach 62 cost MORE than the 2005 Rolls-Royce Phantom by $46,250.   And the base model Maybach 57 had the same price as the Phantom.  Then 2 years later Maybach put the 57S and 62S on sale and the 57S was 40k more than a Phantom and the 62S was about $100,000 more than the Phantom.  I don't know why you think the Maybach's were cheaper than a Rolls.  

As far as the CT5 goes, The CTS undercut the 5-series and E-class by $10k, and the CT5 undercuts the CTS by $10k.   If Cadillac wanted an E-class competitor why did they price it lower than the CTS?  Why not upgrade the vehicle and move it up market.  

 

 

The Maybach name is a trim level.  Why is GMC Yukon Denali a good idea and S-class Maybach not a good idea?  It is the same thing.

Fair point on the price front, back then. However, they still couldn’t compete and sold the remaining US back overseas when the sales turned sour. Now, they are exponentially cheaper than the Rolls while still thinking they are competing with them. The core point stands. You feel it’s okay for them to target the big boys at a lower price point but somehow it’s wrong for Cadillac to do the same. That’s the goalpost moving we are all referring to. 

[David]

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

What goal post, it was stated that Maybach was cheaper than Rolls and that is the same as Cadillac being cheaper than Mercedes.  Except the Maybach was NOT CHEAPER than a Rolls, they were priced the same.  Cadillac prices their cars below the Germans not the same like Maybach did when they went against Rolls-Royce.  

Yet you struggle to not stay focused on the FACT this was about the Cadillac CT4 & 5 V-Blackwing edition. Everyone time someone points out how Daimler is now BEHIND Cadillac, you have to throw in EVERYTHING else NOT RELATED to this focus on this thread.

What does Rolls or Maybach have to do with the BlackWings? NOTHING, you could ignore and just stay focus and would be better for it, but you have to flitter off into the back 40 Upper 40 Lower 40 to play smoke n mirrors about the fact that Cadillac Luxury maker has a pair of high quality LUXURY Speed Demon cars and Daimler is now BEHIND them. 

Normal as everyone leap frogs in this industry.

You would rather bring in CUVs, FWD Appliance auto's that have been heavily massaged by their AMG division of lower level or higher level than seeing where these auto's truly are.

What Ever! 🙄

[surreal1272]

27 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The CLA45 is faster around a racetrack than the Alpha platform ATS-V, the CT4-V and CT5-V.  So if the Alpha platform was that good, shouldn't a 464 hp ATS-V be faster around the track than a 382 hp CLA45?  

Also I don't t think Cadillac owners were asking for an E90 3-series with a cheaper interior.  Which is why the ATS tanked, wrong car for the market, and the CT4 sales are tanking and it hasn't even been on sale long.  

The top of the line CLA45 should be faster than a no longer made ATS-V or mid-range CT4-V. Again, those goalposts are getting mighty tired. 

5 minutes ago, David said:

Yet you struggle to not stay focused on the FACT this was about the Cadillac CT4 & 5 V-Blackwing edition. Everyone time someone points out how Daimler is now BEHIND Cadillac, you have to throw in EVERYTHING else NOT RELATED to this focus on this thread.

What does Rolls or Maybach have to do with the BlackWings? NOTHING, you could ignore and just stay focus and would be better for it, but you have to flitter off into the back 40 Upper 40 Lower 40 to play smoke n mirrors about the fact that Cadillac Luxury maker has a pair of high quality LUXURY Speed Demon cars and Daimler is now BEHIND them. 

Normal as everyone leap frogs in this industry.

You would rather bring in CUVs, FWD Appliance auto's that have been heavily massaged by their AMG division of lower level or higher level than seeing where these auto's truly are.

What Ever! 🙄

To be fair, I brought up Maybach and Rolls (their huge current price differences) in counter to his assumption that Cadillac can’t compete with lower priced models n

[surreal1272]

The whole point, that SMK intentionally misses is that Cadillac can compete at a lower price point and that’s mostly because the German competition is overpriced in the U.S. to begin with. It’s not that hard to figure out honestly but that BS has hijacked this thread for too long so...again, I love that a six speed manual comes standard on the Caddy’s!

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Fair point on the price front, back then. However, they still couldn’t compete and sold the remaining US back overseas when the sales turned sour. Now, they are exponentially cheaper than the Rolls while still thinking they are competing with them. The core point stands. You feel it’s okay for them to target the big boys at a lower price point but somehow it’s wrong for Cadillac to do the same. That’s the goalpost moving we are all referring to. 

But they aren't targeting Rolls-Royce anymore.  They tried and it didn't work.   What they did realize is that there are people that will pay for an upgraded S-class or GLS to be chauffeured in, and they capitalized on that market.  Really Cadillac should do the same with the Escalade and Celestiq and maybe Lyric, I don't know how expensive that will be.   But China has a lot of chauffeur driven cars.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

The whole point, that SMK intentionally misses is that Cadillac can compete at a lower price point and that’s mostly because the German competition is overpriced in the U.S. to begin with. It’s not that hard to figure out honestly but that BS has hijacked this thread for too long so...again, I love that a six speed manual comes standard on the Caddy’s!

Cadillac's best argument is that they are cheaper than the Germans.   I think Cadillac should target Acura, Infiniti and Lincoln and really try to dominate those makers who they can probably almost put out of business if they tried.  They aren't going to convert the Tesla faithful nor are they going to beat the Germans, it has been 20 years of seriously trying to compete with the Germans, and 20 more years before that with half-ass attempts like the Cimarron and Allante and Seville.  I don't understand why they keep trying the same old stuff.

And I watched the Autoline interview with Cadillac's chief engineer, and I sort of got the sense that this is both the last hurrah of their gas performance sedans, and he sort of mentioned they looked at a rear drive SUV, but didn't go that direction.  I think GM won't put money into a gas Cadillac after this year, and XT4/XT5/XT6 will probably be around as is for another 4-5 years as they just die on the vine, before they just make this brand all EV.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

But they aren't targeting Rolls-Royce anymore.  They tried and it didn't work.   What they did realize is that there are people that will pay for an upgraded S-class or GLS to be chauffeured in, and they capitalized on that market.  Really Cadillac should do the same with the Escalade and Celestiq and maybe Lyric, I don't know how expensive that will be.   But China has a lot of chauffeur driven cars.

They are still targeting RR as well as Bentley. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac's best argument is that they are cheaper than the Germans.   I think Cadillac should target Acura, Infiniti and Lincoln and really try to dominate those makers who they can probably almost put out of business if they tried.  They aren't going to convert the Tesla faithful nor are they going to beat the Germans, it has been 20 years of seriously trying to compete with the Germans, and 20 more years before that with half-ass attempts like the Cimarron and Allante and Seville.  I don't understand why they keep trying the same old stuff.

And I watched the Autoline interview with Cadillac's chief engineer, and I sort of got the sense that this is both the last hurrah of their gas performance sedans, and he sort of mentioned they looked at a rear drive SUV, but didn't go that direction.  I think GM won't put money into a gas Cadillac after this year, and XT4/XT5/XT6 will probably be around as is for another 4-5 years as they just die on the vine, before they just make this brand all EV.

Not even bothering with the rest of the nonsense and I’ll just focus on your first sentence. Price was not best argument when cars like the 2nd gen CTS-V was spanking the Germans. It was the better drivers car overall. The same applies to the Blackwing as well. 
 

I do find it a bit hilarious that you think Cadillac won’t convert Tesla owners but I bet you think Benz can even though they are further down the EV pipeline than GM. Just stop the fanboy nonsense already. 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, David said:

Everyone time someone points out how Daimler is now BEHIND Cadillac, you have to throw in EVERYTHING else NOT RELATED to this focus on this thread.

Diamler isn't behind Cadillac, in pretty much any metric you'd like to use. 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, David said:

What does Rolls or Maybach have to do with the BlackWings? NOTHING, you could ignore and just stay focus and would be better for it, but you have to flitter off into the back 40 Upper 40 Lower 40 to play smoke n mirrors about the fact that Cadillac Luxury maker has a pair of high quality LUXURY Speed Demon cars and Daimler is now BEHIND them. 

Scroll back and you'll find USA and Balthy mentioned Rolls and Maybach before smk did, Thursday, to help with your search. 

If you're an honest man, you'd get on those two for mentioning Rolls and Maybach. 

Diamler is miles ahead of Cadillac. Cadillac wishes and dreams they could be what Mercedes and BMW are. 

[balthazar]

Daimler isn't competing with Cadillac, it's competing with General Motors.

GM is worth 15% / $10 billion more than Daimler, and sold 7.7 million units in '19, vs. 2.8 million.

- - - - -
Ya, I'm sure it was me who sent things down another track. Oopsie.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Daimler isn't competing with Cadillac, it's competing with General Motors.

GM is worth 15% / $10 billion more than Daimler, and sold 7.7 million units in '19, vs. 2.8 million.

- - - - -
Ya, I'm sure it was me who sent things down another track. Oopsie.

I assume that is before the split of Diamler's large truck division? I'm not sure what percentage of business that is, but I'd assume it is a decent chunk and "Diamler" will be worth a good bit less.