Vaccine discussion

[Drew Dowdell]

Just a place to swap stories about our vaccine experiences.

I got the Moderna shot on Jan 11th. Other than a sore arm for a few days (same thing I get with a flu shot) I had no side effects.

I got my second shot on Feb 11th at 6pm. The next morning I woke up feeling feverish with body aches and chills. I took Advil and drank Gatorade and felt blah all day. In the evening  I had to pick up a curbside grocery order, I didn’t feel well but I went anyway. On the way back I really felt awful and almost pulled over to make Albert drive back. I made it home and went right back to bed.

I had fevers during the night for the next few nights. I didn’t start feeling normal again until day 5 and didn’t catch up on my sleep for a week.

but I’d do it again to avoid getting Covid.

[Robert Hall]

I had my first Pfizer shot on March 22.  Had registered online w/ the local hospital chains, Walgreens, and CVS to see when I could get an appointment...University Hospitals came through first once I was eligible.   Had an 8 am appointment, first group of the day at a local hospital.  They were pretty efficient, from queuing up, to the registration, to the actual shot and the post shot wait w/ a 15 min timer I was in and out in around 35 minutes.   I ended up going there twice that day---my sister's appointment was at 5:45 at the same hospital, and she wanted me along as her emotional support sibling. 

Only a little shoulder pain that evening.    The next two nights I had bouts of insomnia and only got about 3-4 hrs of sleep, so ended up feeling washed out and weak the following days..took a half day off from WFH and slept.      Got shot #2 scheduled for  April 12th. 

Haven't changed my behavior, not going to eat out at crowded bars and restaurants....I guess at 50 I'm not much of a risk-taker anymore.  Staying at home indefinitely works for me now, though I do miss going to concerts, museums, restaurants, etc and other things I did in the before time....with Spring here (though not today--snowy and 32F), I do look forward to getting out for walks and hikes in the metro parks and nearby Cuyahoga Valley National Park soon...

[David]

Due to taking care of both side of parents and grandparents, my wife and I qualified for the multi-generational household. So we got our Pfizer Shots and booster. I had no side affects from either shot, wife was fine with the first shot, but the second shot, but the time we got home was really out of it and slept the rest of the day and night and the next day was fine.

Our family doctor said due to her not having a thyroid, she was slower to respond but over all should be fine.

Like @Robert Hall we are not eating out, going anywhere other than local road trips. I make once a week trips for shopping for everyone, delivery to the doors of the parents / grand parents and then back home. Wife shop's via online and has stuff delivered, she makes 1 or 2 trips a month to Kohls to return stuff for Amazon returns and to Macy's for returns always early when they first open up to avoid crowds.

Pretty much will stay this way for the year while the world gets vaccinated.

Work with CDC, John Hopkins and Oxford in support of the storage they use for their Covid-19 research. Seems lots of research is going on with the focus of another booster shot in about 6 months to address Covid-19 variants.

Rather get vaccinated than deal with Covid-19 sickness.

https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-testing-3rd-booster-shot-for-covid-19-vaccine-variants-2021-2

[Robert Hall]

Going to be interesting to see if an annual Covid shot will become routine like an annual flu shot has been for many years.

 

[David]

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Going to be interesting to see if an annual Covid shot will become routine like an annual flu shot has been for many years.

 

Pfizer says they are looking at a combined Flu / Covid shot.

[oldshurst442]

My family and I are still waiting for our turn to get the vaccine. 

Canada had a little hiccup which retarded the distributions but we are right on track now.  

[Drew Dowdell]

I qualified because I’m management in an organization with first responders. Albert had to wait a bit longer but eventually he got qualified because he is taking care of his parents. He got his second shot today of Pfizer. He says he’s feeling fine but I’ve caught him napping today. ( he’s off today)

my best friend qualified under the BMI rule which is ridiculously low. He’s a weight trainer so he’s not actually obese but his BMI qualified him.

[balthazar]

Neither I or my wife has gotten the vaccine yet. Her mother (92) got the J&J one today.
My folks get their 2nd shots tomm.
 

[USA-1]

We really don't know what the long term effects will be and I won't be getting this inoculation, my personal preference. I'm pretty sure I already had Covid-19 way back before we even knew about it in Jan. 2020 as it was spreading from China and we know the CCP kept it quiet.

It wasn't that bad, like a head cold for a week or so the typical run for a virus of any kind and I never get sick (not even a seasonal cold) so I know it was most likely SARS-CoV-2 (Covid-19). I'm 44 and feel that herd immunity has a great chance at keeping this Lab Bug down. I know several people who have had Covid-19 and gotten over it just fine, one person being my 76 yr. old Uncle who lives in the PNW and all he had was slight dizziness and fatigue, so he just slept a lot for a couple of days. My cousin and his wife and their two boys got it, he and the boys just had flu like symptoms for a few days and fatigue so they slept it off. They are both in the medical field, he's a PA and she's an RN and was asymptomatic. High risk are diabetics and the over weight with heart disease, among other underlying conditions. Experts are saying this current inoculation may not protect against the new variants coming out of the U.K., So. Africa and Brazil and now California here in the U.S., so it's a crap shoot and I'm not taking a chance of what the long term effects will be, especially if it's not going to protect from the new strains/variants. I'm good, thanks.

According to the ever changing guidance from the CDC, even if you are fully inoculated you still have to wear a face mask and continue to social distance. Also, regularly wash your d*mn hands with soap and water or have hand sanitizer with you. I have always religiously washed my hands when I get home after being out in public, even before this outbreak and like I stated earlier, I hardly ever get sick. I still think this is a major form of transmission like with any viral or bacterial infection.

 

“People who have received the vaccines should watch for changes in guidance from the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], and continue with coronavirus safety precautions to reduce the risk of infection, such as mask wearing, physical distancing and hand hygiene.”

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/a-new-strain-of-coronavirus-what-you-should-know

[Drew Dowdell]

Without vaccines, “herd immunity” is just another way of saying “the weak shall perish”.

These vaccines have been in development for over a decade and that’s the only reason they were done so quickly. They were trying to develop a vaccine for common cold viruses and the work they did for that translated directly into a Covid-19 vaccine.

I would expect CDC guidance to change as the situation changes and new things are learned, that’s just common sense. My whole pod is vaccinated now, so we’re able to gather as a family for the first time since last year for Easter.

So far, the vaccine is proving to be effective against severe illness when someone is infected with the variants. I expect all of those who get vaccinated will need boosters at some point. I get my flu vaccine every year, I’ll get the Covid one as often as needed.

[David]

Science constantly evolves and without testing, vaccination, etc. we would still have today Polio, Chicken Pox, Measles, Mumps, etc., etc., etc..

Common sense tells me that as more and more data comes in that the leaders of smart medical groups including our own CDC will adjust recommendations and guidance on how we approach and deal with this.

1918 Influenza, AKA Flu killed many before vaccination started to come out and history shows yearly updates of vaccination happened well into the following decades before the planet reached herd immunity and deaths started to decline to a more controllable level.

History shows how we have dealt with pandemics and medicine is on our side for keeping the bulk of society healthy and alive.

Past Pandemics | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC

1918 Pandemic (H1N1 virus) | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC

1957-1958 Pandemic (H2N2 virus) | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC

1968 Pandemic (H3N2 virus) | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC

2009 H1N1 Pandemic (H1N1pdm09 virus) | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC

Nothing is perfect, but I for one believe that the Good of the Many outweigh the Good of the Few.

Vaccination is a choice, but I would rather have everyone vaccinated keeping us with a delightful multi-cultural world than one that destroys humans with certain blood types or medical conditions just cause someone is uncomfortable with vaccination.

[oldshurst442]

There is no such thing as 'herd immunity'.  While 'herd immunity' is related to the percentage of vaccinated people in a population, 'herd immunity' as proposed and explained and wished upon us during the Covid-19 pandemic was purely BS.  As Drew puts it:  The weak shall perish.   (I think we as a species, have come a long way from our animal roots to be going back to the laws of the jungle and its 'only the strong shall survive' ) 

When a large percentage of a society is vaccinated, the spread of disease is limited and thus protects indirectly, the unimmunized people. The chain of infection is disrupted.     But that does NOT mean that the disease is eliminated.   

No vaccines, and sometimes humans will NOT develop natural immunization and if the disease is deadly enough, it WILL wipe us all out of existence. No 'herd immunity' in that scenario as some politicians were clamoring on about, right?    Plenty of diseases out there that fall into that category.  Does Covid fall into that category?  I dunno. I dont want to find out either, 

Even if 100% of the population is vaccinated, for 100 years continually, we humans sometimes STILL dont develop 100% immunity from certain diseases either from the vaccine OR naturally.    Meaning, in some humans, vaccines do not work and meaning that some diseases just know our DNA biology and there is nothing to do about it.  

In some diseases, as you guys know, when there is a strong enough anti-vax movement,  some diseases actually come back (stronger than ever) to haunt us. 

Ive read that there are some babies whose mother was vaccinated for Covid-19, and the baby had natural immunization from Covid-19.  But Im not sure if all human babies develop natural immunization from Covid if mommy was vaccinated.  

 Covid-19 is said to be with us forever now.  Its going to be a part of our future dispelling the possibility of the scenario I described above where there HAS been some babies with natural immunity because of their mother's vaccination.   

Covid-19 is a bitch of a thing. As I understand it,  its not about how weak you are or out of shape. Its how your own body, your OWN DNA make-up that decides your fate on how you will cope with it.  

There has been healthy 20 year old athletes (male AND female) that have fallen really sick from it and there has been deaths too.    Just as there has been asymptomatic 80 year olds.

Covid-19 patients all have different symptoms. A wide range of symptoms.  Covid-19 patients also have a wide range of body organs failing.  Not all have their lungs being attacked. Some have had kidney failure only.  Liver failure only. Some have had neurological failure.  Some were all of the above. Some were a mixture of. 

Whatever your personal decisions are....just stay safe please! 

 

 

[USA-1]

We all have immune systems and some are very strong, "nature's vaccine". Like most of us know once you have a virus your immune system makes almost certain that you won't get that same bug again by making antibodies for it, even if a slightly different variant. So yes, there is such a thing as herd immunity and it's constantly proven.

I have and still wear a mask anytime I'm indoors in public to protect myself and others, but I find it interesting that the expert infectious disease doctors said we didn't need to be walking around with masks on in the beginning last February, but 2 weeks later we all needed masks ASAP. We could have had and still need better direction from our leading doctors and scientists involved with this ongoing disaster.

I'm not an antivaxer by any means and I am all for vaccines for MMR, Tentanus etc. Chicken Pox we all got as children and our immune systems made antibodies for it, but this isn't a typical vaccine like MMR or Tentanus or even the Flu shot where they inject a weak or inactive pathogen to force your immune system to build antibodies for it so you are more likely to be protected if or when the real one hits, but it's never 100% protection.

This is a very new inoculation called Messenger - Ribonucleic Acids (m-RNA) and it has never been widely used like this, so we have no way of knowing what it could do to our immune system and our DNA in the future with the way the RNA read the DNA nucleus and makes changes to our cells, they're screwing with science big time. They still have to have clinical testing like our FDA and CDC require or recommend, but it was only 6 mos. of trials for this particular m-RNA and they weren't having large trials that go on for at least 5 years when testing vaccines previously, so yes it's been in our FDA controlled labs, but not injected in this many arms.

 https://biologydictionary.net/mrna/

Just like people are dying from Covid-19 many are also dying from the m-RNA shots who were never sick, usually the second one from the two big Pharmas out there and many are healthy individuals with no underlying conditions, which is why I'm going with my strong immune system for protection.

I also hope everyone stays well, whichever choice you make. 

[Drew Dowdell]

@USA-1 your strong immune system could very well be your undoing if you were to catch Covid. Many of the young healthy people who died did so because their immune system over reacted and flooded their lungs with mucus and inflamed air passages too much in an attempt to fight the virus.

You are correct that mRNA vaccines have not been widely used like this before, but they are not untested.  The vaccine itself is out of your system within a few days of each shot, removed by your immune system. 
 

While using mRNA is a new technique for creating immune response, that’s where the novelty of it ends. Once your body recognizes it as an intruder, the immune process works the same as any other vaccine or even just being infected. And because the vaccine is expelled within days by the body, there is no reason to assume any long term side effects. 

Think of mRNA as the 3D Printing of the vaccine world. Once the composition of a virus’s spike protein is known, we now have the ability to isolate just the DNA that creates just that spike protein. With today’s technology, that means a vaccine can be developed for a specific virus within weeks to months instead of years. 
 

The implications of mRNA vaccines are huge. While we’ve all been talking about just COVID-19, scientists are already looking at using this technology for scores of other diseases such as cancer. This has been a breakthrough as big or bigger than antibiotics and we’re seeing the beginning of it.

mRNA vaccines won’t work for all types of viruses, but it will work for a lot of common ones. I imagine in a few years once the focus on Covid has died down, there will be vaccines for the common cold.  And because the technology is akin to 3D printing, the new vaccines will be relatively cheap to produce as well.

The data so far shows that people who have been vaccinated have significantly higher antibody levels than those who got Covid, so even if you had it before you are not as well protected as someone who got their shots.

The only people who died from the shot were either in extremely frail health and should not have been vaccinated in the first place or people who have severe allergic reactions to an unrelated ingredient in the vaccine. People who experience certain kinds of allergies are instructed not to get the Moderna or Pfizer shots. The J&J shot has a significantly lower rate of allergic reaction, but also lower protection from the virus.

There are only 2 big question marks that will only be answered with time.

1. Will we need to get boosters to combat against variants? So far the data shows that while you may not be completely protected from a new variant, having the vaccine does prevent the illness from becoming serious enough to cause hospitalization and completely prevents death from the virus. So for now, getting the shots is worthwhile even with the variants out there. I will get the Moderna variants booster if/when it becomes available and needed. We have to do this with influenza every year, so it’s no big deal.

2. The other question mark is on how long immunity lasts. Most vaccines require booster shots after a period of years. The MMR vaccine is usually given to children, but for people my age and older they’re finding that the body forgets how to make the antibodies after a bunch of years for the vaccine that was being used in the early 80s when I got mine. There is a newer MMR shot that is supposed to improve on that which children are getting these days. I got a booster for MMR a couple years ago because I had the old vaccine. A few years ago I talked to my doctor and had him put me on a schedule to get boosters of anything and everything I might need because I was traveling internationally regularly.

But the risk of the body forgetting how to make antibodies is present for nearly all vaccines, so while we do not have data yet on when boosters for Covid-19 might be needed, I’m just assuming they will be needed eventually in order to maintain immunity.

I do hope you’ll reconsider and eventually get the shot USA.

 

[surreal1272]

I’m just going to say this. Those who think that because some folks died from the shot, it is somehow comparable to folks who have actually died from COVID-19 itself and thus not worth getting, truly do not understand how this works at all. Furthermore, herd immunity only applies here when 70-80% of the population is vaccinated. It has been covered and explained time and time again, by folks who actually believe and understand science, why herd immunization (as it was being suggested last year) is a bad option. The fact that millions more would have died would be the number one reason for it not happening. In the past year, my girlfriend and I have lost family (her non-mask wearing grandfather) and friends on both sides and a few who are still battling some crazy side effects of this disease. It is not the flu. It is not the cold. It is not even chickenpox. It is a disease with many different facets to it and we should all be doing our level best to keep it to a minimum. 

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I’m just going to say this. Those who think that because some folks died from the shot, it is somehow comparable to folks who have actually died from COVID-19 itself and thus not worth getting, truly do not understand how this works at all. Furthermore, herd immunity only applies here when 70-80% of the population is vaccinated. It has been covered and explained time and time again, by folks who actually believe and understand science, why herd immunization (as it was being suggested last year) is a bad option. The fact that millions more would have died would be the number one reason for it not happening. In the past year, my girlfriend and I have lost family (her non-mask wearing grandfather) and friends on both sides and a few who are still battling some crazy side effects of this disease. It is not the flu. It is not the cold. It is not even chickenpox. It is a disease with many different facets to it and we should all be doing our level best to keep it to a minimum. 

I have friends in Boulder Colorado who got it very early in the pandemic, just before things started getting locked down. They were sick for a month and pulled through, however a year later they still have after effects. This is a very healthy couple who would get out and exercise regularly and go hiking in the mountains. 
 

These days they get winded climbing up the one flight of stairs to their apartment. 
 

As far as I know they haven’t had any chest X-rays, but there’s plenty of evidence that they’ve suffered long term/permanent lung damage.

They’re the same age as me.

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I have friends in Boulder Colorado who got it very early in the pandemic, just before things started getting locked down. They were sick for a month and pulled through, however a year later they still have after effects. This is a very healthy couple who would get out and exercise regularly and go hiking in the mountains. 
 

These days they get winded climbing up the one flight of stairs to their apartment. 
 

As far as I know they haven’t had any chest X-rays, but there’s plenty of evidence that they’ve suffered long term/permanent lung damage.

They’re the same age as me.

A good friend in Germany has an otherwise healthy 17 year old son who got it back in October and while he technically recovered, he has massive issues with his breathing and his energy levels, and that was just for starters. I would like to add that some famous folks got hit hard too. Maynard James Keenan (Tool lead singer) got COVID early last year and six months later, he was still not sure if he’d be able to sing live again because it wrecked his lungs. Just a few examples of the struggles folks are experiencing during these unprecedented times.

 

COVID-19 has never been a “black and white” type of virus and the many problems I’ve read about after recovery on top of all the unnecessary deaths makes me take it very seriously and while I have a very strong immune system, others in my household do not so I bear their safety in mind whenever I head out to deal with the public. It’s just common sense to me.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, surreal1272 said:

A good friend in Germany has an otherwise healthy 17 year old son who got it back in October and while he technically recovered, he has massive issues with his breathing and his energy levels, and that was just for starters. I would like to add that some famous folks got hit hard too. Maynard James Keenan (Tool lead singer) got COVID early last year and six months later, he was still not sure if he’d be able to sing live again because it wrecked his lungs. Just a few examples of the struggles folks are experiencing during these unprecedented times.

 

COVID-19 has never been a “black and white” type of virus and the many problems I’ve read about after recovery on top of all the unnecessary deaths makes me take it very seriously and while I have a very strong immune system, others in my household do not so I bear their safety in mind whenever I head out to deal with the public. It’s just common sense to me.

A lot of the Covid deniers will point to the survival rate (while also pointing at the wrong number), but survival does not equal recovery. People survive cancer all the time, but they are often not able to do the things they once did. My old boss was a multi-time cancer survivor (it did get him eventually) but even when he was in remission he was relegated to a lifetime of medications that had side effects and he couldn’t take the stairs going up because he no longer had adrenal glands.

So yeah, he survived cancer for a time, but he never recovered.

The same is happening to people who get Covid.

[surreal1272]

52 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

A lot of the Covid deniers will point to the survival rate (while also pointing at the wrong number), but survival does not equal recovery. People survive cancer all the time, but they are often not able to do the things they once did. My old boss was a multi-time cancer survivor (it did get him eventually) but even when he was in remission he was relegated to a lifetime of medications that had side effects and he couldn’t take the stairs going up because he no longer had adrenal glands.

So yeah, he survived cancer for a time, but he never recovered.

The same is happening to people who get Covid.

A thousand times this!. I'll add this as well. Even if the deniers were correct on the survival rate, they fail to see the larger math problem here. Even if it is only a 1% mortality rate, that is still 3.4 million in the U.S. (based off of the 340 million we have in this country alone), dead and given the contagious nature of COVID, that is where it would be eventually if we did absolutely nothing and 3.4 million, in this country, would be a bare minimum number if we were to subscribe to the herd immunity "theory" presented by those deniers last year.

[ykX]

My wife is a healthcare worker and she and a LOT of other doctors and health workers I know are not in a huge rush to get mRNA based vaccine.  The vaccine absolutely works for now but NOONE yet knows LONG TERM implications of the mRNA based vaccines.  That is the reason FDA gave TEMPORARY Emergency approval.  They don't have full approval of the FDA because it is simply not yet fully tested. 

 Personally, I probably will be eligible soon for the vaccine and I plan to get it simply because I want to start traveling and not worrying that I will get sick badly.  But if I have a chance I will get J&J vaccine, not Pfizer or Moderna.

[USA-1]

5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

@USA-1 your strong immune system could very well be your undoing if you were to catch Covid. Many of the young healthy people who died did so because their immune system over reacted and flooded their lungs with mucus and inflamed air passages too much in an attempt to fight the virus.

You are correct that mRNA vaccines have not been widely used like this before, but they are not untested.  The vaccine itself is out of your system within a few days of each shot, removed by your immune system.

While using mRNA is a new technique for creating immune response, that’s where the novelty of it ends. Once your body recognizes it as an intruder, the immune process works the same as any other vaccine or even just being infected. And because the vaccine is expelled within days by the body, there is no reason to assume any long term side effects.

There are only 2 big question marks that will only be answered with time.

1. Will we need to get boosters to combat against variants? So far the data shows that while you may not be completely protected from a new variant, having the vaccine does prevent the illness from becoming serious enough to cause hospitalization and completely prevents death from the virus. So for now, getting the shots is worthwhile even with the variants out there. I will get the Moderna variants booster if/when it becomes available and needed. We have to do this with influenza every year, so it’s no big deal.

2. The other question mark is on how long immunity lasts. Most vaccines require booster shots after a period of years. The MMR vaccine is usually given to children, but for people my age and older they’re finding that the body forgets how to make the antibodies after a bunch of years for the vaccine that was being used in the early 80s when I got mine. There is a newer MMR shot that is supposed to improve on that which children are getting these days. I got a booster for MMR a couple years ago because I had the old vaccine. A few years ago I talked to my doctor and had him put me on a schedule to get boosters of anything and everything I might need because I was traveling internationally regularly.

But the risk of the body forgetting how to make antibodies is present for nearly all vaccines, so while we do not have data yet on when boosters for Covid-19 might be needed, I’m just assuming they will be needed eventually in order to maintain immunity.

I do hope you’ll reconsider and eventually get the shot USA.
 

A strong immune system is not the same as one that overreacts to a pathogen or antigen, two totally different things. Your immune system could overreact to the seasonal flu or any other nasty bug for that matter and for many people it does.

I've read all about m-RNA and it is a great development and the latest in technology with Gene therapy, but I and many others feel that it's not quite ready for prime-time, that is all I'm stating here.  I never stated that I wasn't going to eventually get it, I'm waiting it out a while like many others are who I know and trust.

It doesn't work like any other vaccine because it isn't like any other older method vaccine where an inactive pathogen is injected in your arm to "present" it to your immune system. There actually is data coming in that people who have been "fully vaccinated" are still getting Covid-19 so the different variants are, in fact, still getting past the "vaccine immunity" and some could be the 5% or 6% failure rate of the 2 shot vaccines 94-95% effective rate. The J&J one shot is definitely not worth it with only an 84% effective rate. 

It is a temporary Emergency Approval so You AND the FDA do not know for sure what possible side effects could come up in the near or distant future. I know they've been testing it, but not enough trials have been completed, nothing close to what they normally complete.

I get it, it scared the sh*t out of you that your friends almost died from it, but it's VERY RARE that someone our age has Covid-19 to that extreme. Like I stated earlier, I know several people our age and older that had Covid-19 and got over it fine, flu-ish or cold like for 3 days. My 53 yr. old PA cousin and his 51 yr. old RN wife both got it middle of last year like I stated earlier and are fine with no lasting side effects. My 76 yr. old Uncle got Covid late last year and got over it fine just dizzy and fatigued and slept a lot for a couple of days. My cousin says if he and his wife weren't in healthcare they most likely wouldn't get the m-RNA right now even before they had Covid, because not enough is known about the very possible lasting side effects. That's coming from people in healthcare who I trust, not our FDA/Gov't. and I'm not anti-government, I'm anti Big government.

There are a lot of chemicals used in food (food coloring/dyes) and body care products that are not banned by our FDA, but are banned in every other Developed Ally nation in Europe, Japan and Australia because of the cancer causing carcinogens or ADHD that they cause in children, so our FDA directors aren't always headed in the right direction. Why don't they just ban it? Because they have Big Corp. or Big Pharma in their back pocket who are sadly many times directing them. Why do we pay so much for basic pharmaceuticals like antibiotics in this country? Big Pharma money and control... 

 

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

A lot of the Covid deniers will point to the survival rate (while also pointing at the wrong number), but survival does not equal recovery. People survive cancer all the time, but they are often not able to do the things they once did. My old boss was a multi-time cancer survivor (it did get him eventually) but even when he was in remission he was relegated to a lifetime of medications that had side effects and he couldn’t take the stairs going up because he no longer had adrenal glands.

So yeah, he survived cancer for a time, but he never recovered.

The same is happening to people who get Covid.

That's almost always the lasting effects of chemotherapy and radiation cell damage that cancer survivors go through. My cousin (sister of cousin above) had breast cancer nearly 20 years ago and still has horrible lasting effects from the chemo with tendon and muscle issues etc. She was healthy as an ox before as well, but obviously cancer doesn't discriminate. She says she now feels like a 75 yr. old woman when she's only 55. Sucks. 

It's often said if the cancer doesn't kill you, the chemo will.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

It doesn't work like any other vaccine because it isn't like any other older method vaccine where an inactive pathogen is injected in your arm to "present" it to your immune system. There actually is data coming in that people who have been "fully vaccinated" are still getting Covid-19 so the different variants are, in fact, still getting past the "vaccine immunity" and some could be the 5% or 6% failure rate of the 2 shot vaccines 94-95% effective rate.

That is expected. The flu shot has a lower effectiveness than the Covid shot. None of the vaccines are expected to be 100%. 
 

However the vaccine is effective that even if you’re vaccinated and still get it you don’t end up in the hospital.

so that is a major improvement over dying. 
 

That’s the point of the vaccine, to prevent mortality. That’s why getting the vaccine is important even with the variants.

[USA-1]

45 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 None of the vaccines are expected to be 100%. 
 

However the vaccine is effective that even if you’re vaccinated and still get it you don’t end up in the hospital.
 

Right, which is what I am saying, nothing is 100% effective, so it's really a roll of the dice.

Like I stated earlier I'm pretty sure I already had it last February and I'll be getting tested for antibodies very soon now that the tests are having better results.

Also, we are still being told by the CDC to wear a mask and keep your social distance even if vaccinated, so that should tell you that even the FDA still doesn't know what to expect from the vaccine or it's effectiveness in so many people.

Happy Easter 🐰

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by USA-1

[David]

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

There actually is data coming in that people who have been "fully vaccinated" are still getting Covid-19 so the different variants are, in fact, still getting past the "vaccine immunity" and some could be the 5% or 6% failure rate of the 2 shot vaccines 94-95% effective rate. The J&J one shot is definitely not worth it with only an 84% effective rate. 

Please post the actual links of where you are getting these so called facts on people who are vaccinated are getting sick with Covid-19?

Currently if you never had Covid-19 and get vaccinated, there has been no reported cases of infection except by deceptive news outlets that have not given any actual scientific facts on this.

Myths and Facts about COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC

Current data is showing that J&J effectiveness is only 66%.

Information About Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine | CDC

What You Need to Know About the Johnson & Johnson Vaccine - COVID-19 - Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health (jhsph.edu)

Plenty of factual real science data from John Hopkins on the facts, not myths or news slander on vaccination.

Vaccines - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center (jhu.edu)

COVID-19 Vaccination Information and Updates (hopkinsmedicine.org)

COVID-19 Vaccines: Myth Versus Fact | Johns Hopkins Medicine

If you do not want to have any faith or trust in US based science, there is also Oxford University.

Oxford coronavirus vaccine shows sustained protection of 76% during the 3-month interval until the second dose | University of Oxford

COVID-19 vaccines | Vaccine Knowledge (ox.ac.uk)

End result is I work with Oxford, JH and CDC daily since they use the storage product I support and I listen in on the daily concalls and the research and work being done. The vaccines are far safer than the Hyper Boll scare tactics used by news outlets, religion and other groups that hope to cause problems by fear.

You have a higher chance of death not being vaccinated than you do being vaccinated. If you spend time reading the science you will see this.

Your choice and I will respect it, I hope you will change your mind and see the benefits outweigh the risks as nothing is perfect, but it is your choice.

56 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Right, which is what I am saying, nothing is 100% effective, so it's really a roll of the dice.

Like I stated earlier I'm pretty sure I already had it last February and I'll be getting tested for antibodies very soon now that the tests are having better results.

Also, we are still being told by the CDC to wear a mask and keep your social distance even if vaccinated, so that should tell you that even the FDA still doesn't know what to expect from the vaccine or it's effectiveness in so many people.

Happy Easter 🐰

 

Common sense is not so common sadly.

The CDC/FDA is wanting masks and social distance till we get everyone vaccinated to help with slowing down the spread of a very dangerous and deadly virus. Spring break in Florida is showing just how crazy the lack of respect is causing.

Wishing you all the best to be safe.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, USA-1 said:

Right, which is what I am saying, nothing is 100% effective, so it's really a roll of the dice.

Like I stated earlier I'm pretty sure I already had it last February and I'll be getting tested for antibodies very soon now that the tests are having better results.

Also, we are still being told by the CDC to wear a mask and keep your social distance even if vaccinated, so that should tell you that even the FDA still doesn't know what to expect from the vaccine or it's effectiveness in so many people.

Happy Easter 🐰

 

The reason they are still telling people to mask even if they’ve been vaccinated is that you can be an asymptomatic carrier. So even if your aren’t ill, you can carry the virus for a time and if you sneeze, say for seasonal allergies, you can spread the virus.

That isn’t a reason to not get vaccinated. 
 

If the odds of winning a roll of the dice were 95% in a casino, I’ll take that bet every single time. Even if I hit the 5% and lose, I can roll again in 90 days. 
 

Risk assessment has been part of my job for over a decade and a half. 

[USA-1]

54 minutes ago, David said:

Please post the actual links of where you are getting these so called facts on people who are vaccinated are getting sick with Covid-19?

Currently if you never had Covid-19 and get vaccinated, there has been no reported cases of infection except by deceptive news outlets that have not given any actual scientific facts on this.

 

Below are articles about people getting sick with Covid-19 after being fully vaccinated, first article is up there with you in Washington State. Like I already stated it's the 5% chance that it won't take and the different variants that get past the vaccine immunity of the original strain. CDC and FDA were originally telling people they would be immune 2 weeks after the vaccine and they obviously are not so again they don't know enough to give any real trust worthy direction right now. 

I understand that you can still be asymptomatic and get it with the vaccine, but some are still getting sick and hospitalized or even dying from it even after being fully vaccinated, that's why the CDC is watching the variants so closely, learning as we go...

 

Here are some serious complications with Covid after being vaccinated right in your backyard...

"However, at least eight people with breakthrough cases have been hospitalized. The Washington State Department of Health is also investigating two potential breakthrough cases where the individuals died."

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/100-fully-vaccinated-people-contract-covid-19-washington/story?id=76784838

Correct, common sense is not so common.

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/i-was-fully-vaccinated-and-still-caught-corona-heres-why-661336

31 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The reason they are still telling people to mask even if they’ve been vaccinated is that you can be an asymptomatic carrier. So even if your aren’t ill, you can carry the virus for a time and if you sneeze, say for seasonal allergies, you can spread the virus.
 

Read the links I just sent David, not just asymptomatic.

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by USA-1

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/i-was-fully-vaccinated-and-still-caught-corona-heres-why-661336

Read the links I just sent David.

I did... here's is a quote from one of them....

Quote

“One has to put it into perspective,” Gershoni said. “Those (who are vaccinated) who do get infected typically are not subject to devastating disease and death.”

 

This statement that vaccination renders most breakthroughs as mild disease is backed up by the latest Health Ministry data. Of the 3,387,340 people who were fully vaccinated against coronavirus (two doses plus seven days), only 4,711 caught the virus, or less than 0.2%.

 

Of those, only 907 people had any symptoms, including 429 who were hospitalized, among them 271 who developed a serious case of the disease. 

 

According to the Health Ministry 99 people have died after being fully vaccinated. 

271 out of 3,387,340 people got severely infected with Covid after being vaccinated (and we don't have any information on their underlying health conditions, so they could all be obese diabetics for all we know), and of those, 99 still died (but again, the article doesn't give info... did they die from Covid or were they already compromised in some way with severe co-morbities?)

0.2% of those vaccinated caught the virus, 2% of those people or 0.000029% of the total vaccinated, died. Only 0.00021% of those who were vaccinated caught covid and got serious illness.

You don't get much more of a sure thing in risk management of any sort, in the world of vaccines, this is a grand slam hit out of the park success.  By comparison, the Flu vaccine is between 40% and 60% effective depending on the strain in a given year.  The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are ~95% effective.

All numbers came from your article in the last link.  I consider that one to be one of the best because Israel has by-far the highest Covid vaccination rate of any country, so I consider its data to be the most revealing. 

 

[USA-1]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I did... here's is a quote from one of them

 

 Here is a quote I had above from the CBS Washington article.

"However, at least eight people with breakthrough cases have been hospitalized. The Washington State Department of Health is also investigating two potential breakthrough cases where the individuals died."

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/100-fully-vaccinated-people-contract-covid-19-washington/story?id=76784838

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, USA-1 said:

 Here is a quote I had above from the CBS Washington article.

"However, at least eight people with breakthrough cases have been hospitalized. The Washington State Department of Health is also investigating two potential breakthrough cases where the individuals died."

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/100-fully-vaccinated-people-contract-covid-19-washington/story?id=76784838

That's actually a lower rate than the article from Israel that I quoted, so I'm not sure why you think that helps your argument. 

And all it is saying is that the vaccine didn't protect everyone.  We KNOW that. We knew it going into it. Vaccines rarely ever protect everyone and there is nearly always someone who is unable to take a vaccine for other health reasons. That is why it is so important for those of us who can take the vaccine to take the vaccine... to protect those who can't.

That is the only ethical way we get to herd immunity.  If 80% of people out there take the vaccine, this pandemic is over.  By not taking it, you're only helping to extend it longer. Even if you had covid, you are not as protected from the virus or variants as you are if you took the vaccine. 

[USA-1]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's actually a lower rate than the article from Israel that I quoted, so I'm not sure why you think that helps your argument. 

And all it is saying is that the vaccine didn't protect everyone. 

That is the only ethical way we get to herd immunity.  If 80% of people out there take the vaccine, this pandemic is over.  By not taking it, you're only helping to extend it longer. Even if you had covid, you are not as protected from the virus or variants as you are if you took the vaccine. 

So explain this then. If you think this vaccine is an end all be all and Pandemic will be over after X amount of people are vaccinated. Why would such a large amount of healthcare workers nationwide be choosing to NOT get the vaccine if they didn't know something was wrong that you don't?! They are seeing sh*t in the hospital from the vaccine that you aren't and know firsthand what it is doing to people.

https://nypost.com/2021/01/01/alarming-number-of-us-health-care-workers-are-refusing-covid-19-vaccine/

 

This pandemic has been winding down, but Covid will never be over. I have friends and family who are front-line healthcare workers who say it's pretty much back to normal other than illegal migrant Covid cases spiking along the border towns with the disaster the current Administration has created. It was solidly locked down because of Covid, but now the Admin. has started "Catch and Release" again forcing CBP to let the illegal immigrants loose many without being tested or given any form of the vaccine DURING a Pandemic...RIDICULOUS

https://www.abc15.com/news/state/arizona-border-patrol-releasing-asylum-seekers-to-communities-in-need-of-shelter

https://apnews.com/article/arizona-immigration-phoenix-e900051cb6c60826b1013f0ab2b5c385

 

There is no proof that having natural antibodies is less protection than the vaccine. That's clearly your opinion.

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by USA-1

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

So explain this then. If you think this vaccine is an end all be all and Pandemic will be over after X amount of people are vaccinated. Why would such a large amount of healthcare workers nationwide be choosing to NOT get the vaccine if they didn't know something was wrong that you don't?! They are seeing sh*t in the hospital from the vaccine that you aren't and know firsthand what it is doing to people. AND the media never tells the whole story either. 

https://nypost.com/2021/01/01/alarming-number-of-us-health-care-workers-are-refusing-covid-19-vaccine/

The New York Post is a trash tabloid, but even then, the quotes are telling "half the nurses in the facility would not get the vaccine, citing political reasons." and "Survey respondents leaning against taking the vaccine said, among other reasons, that they were concerned how politics influenced the development of the vaccine". Also, that article is from December 30th, just a few weeks after the vaccine had been released. How about some up to date data, no?

 

11 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

This pandemic has been winding down, but Covid will never be over. I have friends and family who are front-line healthcare workers who say it's pretty much back to normal other than illegal migrant Covid cases spiking along the border towns with the disaster the current Administration has created. It was solidly locked down because of Covid, but now the Admin. has started "Catch and Release" again forcing CBP to let the illegal immigrants loose many without being tested or given any form of the vaccine DURING a Pandemic...RIDICULOUS

FALSE: The pandemic is not winding down. There are spikes again in a number of major cities including my own. 

ALSO FALSE - The administration has not changed testing procedures at the boarder. Anyone caught by CBP is held for 72 hours while they are tested.  This is carry over policy from the previous administration. Biden Hasn't Reduced COVID-19 Testing at the Border - FactCheck.org - Lots of sources at the bottom too.  But you're getting dangerously close to bumping into the No Politics rule.  You've already used your final opportunity on that one. So move on from that point.

20 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

There is no proof that having natural antibodies is less protection than the vaccine. That's clearly your opinion.

ALSO FALSE - It is being well documented, however the full extent of the greater benefit is not yet fully known.

‘Natural Immunity’ From Covid Is Not Safer Than a Vaccine - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

"Early evidence suggests that the Covid-19 vaccines may fall into this category. Volunteers who received the Moderna shot had more antibodies — one marker of immune response — in their blood than did people who had been sick with Covid-19."

If you follow that link in the quote, it will take you to the NEJM where it will state in the report that people who had Covid-19 had 80% effectiveness while the vaccines have ~95% effectiveness. 

80% < 95%

Not my opinion... take it up with the New England Journal of Medicine, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and the 31 doctors that worked on the study.   If you think you're more qualified to make an assessment than those doctors and organizations, please provide some credential so we know it's not just your opinion.

[USA-1]

11 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 It is being well documented, however the full extent of the greater benefit is not yet fully known.

‘Natural Immunity’ From Covid Is Not Safer Than a Vaccine - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

The administration has not changed testing procedures at the boarder. Anyone caught by CBP is held for 72 hours while they are tested.  This is carry over policy from the previous administration. Biden Hasn't Reduced COVID-19 Testing at the Border - FactCheck.org - Lots of sources at the bottom too. 

NYT? Yeah, talk about a trashy tabloid...and this whole thread that you started is political in many ways on it's own, long before I stated anything.  

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Drew Dowdell
Removed the lies and links to unreliable news sources.

[surreal1272]

4 hours ago, USA-1 said:

NYT? Yeah, talk about a trashy tabloid...and this whole thread that you started is political in many ways on it's own, long before I stated anything.  

 

Quite an accomplishment there. Drew presents you with actual facts and you present the exact opposite of it. Bravo. 
 

BTW, the latest COVID surge is happening all over the country, not just the border states so save the xenophobic blame game by blaming it on immigrants. That is a lie upon many lies you have told on this thread. Just skip the part where I lived in Phoenix up until fifteen months ago so I know that this immigrant surge talk (as well as your assumption that they are mostly criminals because I’m sure you asked them all if they were) is pure BS. 
 

Drew also did not make this political. He talked about vaccines, which should not be political but folks like yourself clearly made it that way.

[surreal1272]

Yeah. Let’s skip things like unrestricted spring breakers in Florida (over the last few weeks) who come from all over and then go back to their hometowns to hopefully NOT spread COVID. Let’s just skip the WHOLE year of 2020 where lax policies kept the previous surges going on longer than other parts of the world because we “might” lose our previous freedoms if we are asked to wear a damn mask. Just skip all of that and blame it on those dirty immigrants like @USA-1 is currently doing. Certainly served the previous administration well, hence them being shown the door by voters five months ago. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

4 hours ago, USA-1 said:

NYT? Yeah, talk about a trashy tabloid...and this whole thread that you started is political in many ways on it's own, long before I stated anything.  

You should be much more outraged about a fourth wave of Covid spreading from this disaster with Illegal immigrants flooding the Southern border than from actual U.S. Citizens and Legal Immigrants already here. 

I warned you against politics, you ignored it, so now you're getting warning points.  Talking about our experiences getting the vaccine is not political.  The fact that you think us discussing how we got the vaccine or the side effects we might have experienced is political says more about you than it does about us.  It also goes back to my complaint in the Bad Behavior thread where I said:

Quote

In the past 4 years every. single. discussion. turns into a fight.... not just here... but Facebook, TikTok, Reddit, whatever.   I don't want this site to become a place where it's just flame wars all the time.

As far as my quote from the NYT.... what I provided was EVIDENCE from the New England Journal of Medicine. It was just a quote from the NYT summarizing in plainer language what the NEJM said.

Compare that to your links (which will be removed):

LawEnforcementToday triggers this warning in my browser:

And even by their own admission, they are an OPINION site with anonymous sources and no accountability

BorderReport is owned by NexStar which, like Sinclair group, is right wing propaganda masquerading as "Your Friendly Local News Channel".  

TFIGlobalNews is an Indian news site which runs Trump puff pieces.... an article dated today is talking about how Trump is going to win (riddled with spelling errors I might add). 

So, on my side I have a respected medical journal largely regarded as one of the standards of the world and to counter that, you provide a link to a site that causes a browser warning, a right-wing propaganda conglomerate, and a news outlet from India with a hard on for Trump.... NONE of which refute my statement (backed by the NEJM) that the vaccine offers greater protection from the virus than being infected does.

So, I'm not going to even address the rest of your lies, I'm just going to delete them as I hand you your warning.  You said your piece here.  You're wrong about virtually every "fact" you've posted.  Stay out of this thread. Further posts in this thread will result in further warnings until suspension kicks in.

 

[surreal1272]

19 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

BorderReport is owned by NexStar which, like Sinclair group, is right wing propaganda masquerading as "Your Friendly Local News Channel".  

I was just about to point that out lol. Borderreport has been fear mongering for years because that's what drums up their target audience, as is the case with ALL Sinclair properties and outlets.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Yeah. Let’s skip things like unrestricted spring breakers in Florida (over the last few weeks) who come from all over and then go back to their hometowns to hopefully NOT spread COVID. Let’s just skip the WHOLE year of 2020 where lax policies kept the previous surges going on longer than other parts of the world because we “might” lose our PRECIOUS (damn autocorrect) freedoms if we are asked to wear a damn mask. Just skip all of that and blame it on those dirty immigrants like @USA-1 is currently doing. Certainly served the previous administration well, hence them being shown the door by voters five months ago. 

Edited in bold for clarification and correction.

[David]

Vaccination is important and I believe most of us realize that and understand the common sense approach.

Course we get the news where it says 52% of Healthcare workers are vaccinated.

Almost half of all health care workers in U.S. haven't had COVID-19 vaccine, survey shows - CBS News

Interesting is that Religion / Politics are the two main reasons for those refusing to get vaccinated. 

Yet then from the State of Texas, Houston news reports on Hospital vaccination of Healthcare workers and you see considerable numbers getting it.

Exclusive Poll: Hospital Healthcare Workers and COVID-19 Vaccine Rates (click2houston.com)

Which has the poll of the local hospitals there and they are averaging 75% vaccinated workers and growing.

https://infogram.com/exclusive-poll-hospital-healthcare-workers-and-covid-19-vaccine-rates-1h7k230l91j8g2x

Even when we look at the CDC for resources for healthcare workers we see the same info provided that the New England Journal of Medicine reports.

Immunization Schedules: Resources for Healthcare Providers | CDC

Sad the number of people who have lost their lives trying to save so many.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

So much good info that if you read it with common sense, one should be able to get the benefits that out weight the risks for everyone, not just healthcare professionals.

Vaccines and Immunizations: For Healthcare Professionals | CDC

As of April 1st, here is where my state stands:

Vaccination rates in Washington state (msn.com)

Interesting is that the most educated sections of Washington state are also the highest vaccination rates.

COVID-19 Data Dashboard :: Washington State Department of Health

Sadest part is that we have way to much wasted vaccination doses due to leaving it up to hospitals and vaccination sites if they want to have a wait list or not. Places that run wait lists have 100% usage of all thawed vaccinations. Almost 18% of the doses here are wasted which is very sad.

I can honestly say that my first show of Pfizer I and my wife had no issues. Second Booster shot, I again had no real side affects, was tired and slept solid for the night. Wife had a bump on her arm at the injection site and slept 12hrs, but again no side affects.

My middle sister due to having 3 generations in her household got her pfizer shots earlier than my wife and I and her husband had zero issues for both shots, daughter had some mild side affects and my sister was down for 3 days but then was fine.

So vaccination can affect people very differently. Interesting is that the data is showing which blood types tend to be more affected than others.

Good info on Blood Types and Covid-19.

Blood type and COVID-19? | MIT Medical

The Link Between Blood Type and COVID-19 Risk, Explained | Health.com

I think this is a perfect visual of vaccination versus not.

Q: What’s the best COVID-19 vaccine? | MIT Medical

[surreal1272]

18 minutes ago, David said:

Vaccination is important and I believe most of us realize that and understand the common sense approach.

Course we get the news where it says 52% of Healthcare workers are vaccinated.

Almost half of all health care workers in U.S. haven't had COVID-19 vaccine, survey shows - CBS News

Interesting is that Religion / Politics are the two main reasons for those refusing to get vaccinated. 

Yet then from the State of Texas, Houston news reports on Hospital vaccination of Healthcare workers and you see considerable numbers getting it.

Exclusive Poll: Hospital Healthcare Workers and COVID-19 Vaccine Rates (click2houston.com)

Which has the poll of the local hospitals there and they are averaging 75% vaccinated workers and growing.

https://infogram.com/exclusive-poll-hospital-healthcare-workers-and-covid-19-vaccine-rates-1h7k230l91j8g2x

Even when we look at the CDC for resources for healthcare workers we see the same info provided that the New England Journal of Medicine reports.

Immunization Schedules: Resources for Healthcare Providers | CDC

Sad the number of people who have lost their lives trying to save so many.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

So much good info that if you read it with common sense, one should be able to get the benefits that out weight the risks for everyone, not just healthcare professionals.

Vaccines and Immunizations: For Healthcare Professionals | CDC

As of April 1st, here is where my state stands:

Vaccination rates in Washington state (msn.com)

Interesting is that the most educated sections of Washington state are also the highest vaccination rates.

COVID-19 Data Dashboard :: Washington State Department of Health

Sadest part is that we have way to much wasted vaccination doses due to leaving it up to hospitals and vaccination sites if they want to have a wait list or not. Places that run wait lists have 100% usage of all thawed vaccinations. Almost 18% of the doses here are wasted which is very sad.

I can honestly say that my first show of Pfizer I and my wife had no issues. Second Booster shot, I again had no real side affects, was tired and slept solid for the night. Wife had a bump on her arm at the injection site and slept 12hrs, but again no side affects.

My middle sister due to having 3 generations in her household got her pfizer shots earlier than my wife and I and her husband had zero issues for both shots, daughter had some mild side affects and my sister was down for 3 days but then was fine.

So vaccination can affect people very differently. Interesting is that the data is showing which blood types tend to be more affected than others.

Good info on Blood Types and Covid-19.

Blood type and COVID-19? | MIT Medical

The Link Between Blood Type and COVID-19 Risk, Explained | Health.com

I think this is a perfect visual of vaccination versus not.

Q: What’s the best COVID-19 vaccine? | MIT Medical

Be careful with those facts David. Some folks might have an “opinion” about it. 
 

Jokes aside, that is really good information and that needs to come out more instead of the ridiculous propaganda and bias laden nonsense being put out there by the anti-vax/anti-mask/alternative facts crowd. 

[David]

@USA-1

Valid question, not being political, just being honest one college educated man to another. 

As a college educated man, how do you not use the analytical skills we learn to assess, review and consider all points of views about science/medicine?

I accept your choice to not get vaccinated, but I do not understand how one can review the data and understand the pro's and cons. 

Were you not vaccinated as a kid growing up in Oregon like all the other school kids?

As an Engineer, I totally get the fact that we can work numbers many different ways to get various results, but if you truly believe in yourself to build the best product, then an objective review of the data allows us to see where the pro's and con's lay and why we would build one way or another.

As more data comes in a clearer picture shows up, yet with that said, today's computers allow us to run many simulations and the data has been far more accurate than we had with Polio, Mumps, Measles, etc.

Vaccination is important to the human race and allowing infections to happen where we can minimize the affects and loss of life via medicine seems to be natural to me. 

So have you reviewed the data from so many various medical sites in coming to your stated view? Which sites are you basing your view on?

[ykX]

45 minutes ago, David said:

Almost half of all health care workers in U.S. haven't had COVID-19 vaccine, survey shows - CBS News

Interesting is that Religion / Politics are the two main reasons for those refusing to get vaccinated. 

My wife is a healthcare worker and none of her colleagues in her department are in the rush to get vaccinated.  My parents family doctor is not doing it for now as well.   Reason is neither politics or religion, simply because no one knows yet long term effects of the vaccine.  I think no one can argue that these vaccines are saving lives at the moment, especially to those who in more risk category.  However, there is a reason that FDA gave temporary emergency approval.  Basically the whole world is an experiment at the moment.  When Pfizer and Moderna will get enough data, they will be able to apply for permanent Biological License Approval from the FDA, but it might  take some time, from month to years.

11 minutes ago, David said:

Were you not vaccinated as a kid growing up in Oregon like all the other school kids?

The reason that no one can force people to get vaccinated at the moment, as opposing to the fact that schools require kids to be fully vaccinated, is that the vaccine has only temporary emergency approval.  It will be AGAINST the law to do so until the vaccine gets full approval of the FDA.

Edited April 5, 2021 by ykX

[David]

8 minutes ago, ykX said:

My wife is a healthcare worker and none of her colleagues in her department are in the rush to get vaccinated.  My parents family doctor is not doing it for now as well.   Reason is neither politics or religion, simply because no one knows yet long term effects of the vaccine.  I think no one can argue that these vaccines are saving lives at the moment, especially to those who in more risk category.  However, there is a reason that FDA gave temporary emergency approval.  Basically the whole world is an experiment at the moment.  When Pfizer and Moderna will get enough data, they will be able to apply for permanent Biological License Approval from the FDA, but it might  take some time, from month to years.

The reason that no one can force people to get vaccinated at the moment, as opposing to the fact that schools require kids to be fully vaccinated, is that the vaccine has only temporary emergency approval.  It will be AGAINST the law to do so until the vaccine gets full approval.

Yes, I understand that they have temporary approval and as more data comes in, it will allow them to apply for permanent long term use that schools will then require.

Data from the world test case has for the most part fell inline with the simulations and the testing done by these companies so I feel far more inclined to get it than I would about risking it without. Seeing vaccination rates in various parts of the country, yes it is the choice of the medical person to get it or not. Yet it does seem to fall inline with political affiliation for regions of this country and yet there is such huge double standards when we see families that talk against it then get fully vaccinated for it.

I know here I see far more medical people getting vaccinated than not especially those working emergency rooms or in home care.

Wishing you and your family all the best to be safe and healthy during the pandemic ykX.

[ykX]

1 minute ago, David said:

Data from the world test case has for the most part fell inline with the simulations and the testing done by these companies

For now it works better than advertised, I doubt anyone can argue with that.  Can anyone guarantee that in 5 years it will not be discovered that these vaccines cause cancer for example?

As I said, personally I plan to get the vaccine soon because I would like to start traveling, but I will try to get J&J vaccine if I have a choice. 

[Drew Dowdell]

16 hours ago, ykX said:

My wife is a healthcare worker and none of her colleagues in her department are in the rush to get vaccinated.  My parents family doctor is not doing it for now as well.   Reason is neither politics or religion, simply because no one knows yet long term effects of the vaccine.  I think no one can argue that these vaccines are saving lives at the moment, especially to those who in more risk category.  However, there is a reason that FDA gave temporary emergency approval.  Basically the whole world is an experiment at the moment.  When Pfizer and Moderna will get enough data, they will be able to apply for permanent Biological License Approval from the FDA, but it might  take some time, from month to years.

The reason that no one can force people to get vaccinated at the moment, as opposing to the fact that schools require kids to be fully vaccinated, is that the vaccine has only temporary emergency approval.  It will be AGAINST the law to do so until the vaccine gets full approval of the FDA.

Again. mRNA vaccines are not new. They have been working on them for over 2 decades. What has changed is the speed at which we can extract the DNA, analyze it, and construct the mRNA. 

The first mRNA vaccine was reported on in testing in 1993 - Induction of virus-specific cytotoxic T lymphocytes in vivo by liposome-entrapped mRNA - PubMed (nih.gov)

Here it is in 2009 being used for fragile cancer patients who needed extremely customized vaccines made in tiny batches for genetically specific cases - Direct Injection of Protamine-protected mRNA: Results of a P... : Journal of Immunotherapy (lww.com)

Back in 2012 there was discussion about how flexible mRNA vaccines are and the realization of what a huge breakthrough it was. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3597572/

Money Quote:

Quote

mRNA vaccines combine desirable immunological properties with an outstanding safety profile and the unmet flexibility of genetic vaccines. … Because any protein can be expressed from mRNA without the need to adjust the production process, mRNA vaccines also offer maximum flexibility with respect to development. Taken together, mRNA presents a promising vector that may well become the basis of a game-changing vaccine technology platform.

In 2013 there was discussion on how effective and safe mRNA vaccines are because of how specific the targeting process is. 

Money Quote

Quote

• mRNA vaccines are safer as compared with plasmid DNA or viral vector-based vaccines.
• Antigen presentation via the MHC-I processing route evokes mainly CD8+ T cells.

And again in 2019 there was over 20 years of data showing: Challenges and advances towards the rational design of mRNA vaccines: Trends in Molecular Medicine (cell.com)

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During the last two decades, there has been broad interest in RNA-based technologies for the development of prophylactic and therapeutic vaccines. Preclinical and clinical trials have shown that mRNA vaccines provide a safe and long-lasting immune response in animal models and humans.

So bottom line:

• these aren’t new, this is literally late 80's / early 90's technology
• the only thing that has changed is the speed at which we can sequence DNA
• there’s lots of info showing they’re safe
• the reason they weren’t widely used before had nothing to do with their safety
• they are ideally suited as the first response to a fast-moving pandemic

I was not making a hyperbole when I stated that mRNA vaccines are the 3D Printing of the vaccine world.

16 hours ago, ykX said:

For now it works better than advertised, I doubt anyone can argue with that.  Can anyone guarantee that in 5 years it will not be discovered that these vaccines cause cancer for example?

As I said, personally I plan to get the vaccine soon because I would like to start traveling, but I will try to get J&J vaccine if I have a choice. 

YES! They have been working on these for decades! There is data going back to when AMC was still an independent company! 

mRNA is safer because it is so tightly targeted.  All it does is make replicas of one part of the membrane of the viral cell so that your body will recognize it.   It's like passing out 3d mug-shots to every police officer in town so they can recognize the bad guy.

The side effects that some people experience from the second dose are a good sign! It means that your body recognized the intruder and went to Red Alert thinking it was a real invasion... and with the second dose your body takes it even more serious.  I got no side effects from the first shot but I got major side effects within 12 hours of the second shot.... that was my body mounting a defense. After 4 days or so, the vaccine was completely expelled from my body.

And now I have those anti-bodies... just like I have antibodies to this year's flu, and the measles, and mumps, and Hep A/B, and others.  Those antibodies do not cause cancer and anti-bodies for Covid do not cause cancer.  You have antibodies to many common cold viruses already. Having antibodies to Covid-19 is no different.

Everyone reading this please try to understand.... Covid-19 is not a particularly special virus, it's new, but not special.  It is most closely related to the common cold. The only thing that is special about it is the intensity of the infection and it's ability to be more easily transmitted. 

To put it in car terms, Covid-19 is the beige 2003 Camry LE that someone did an LS swap into.  Absolutely nothing special, but it can go fast and kill people. That's all it is.

 

[surreal1272]

22 minutes ago, ykX said:

For now it works better than advertised, I doubt anyone can argue with that.  Can anyone guarantee that in 5 years it will not be discovered that these vaccines cause cancer for example?

As I said, personally I plan to get the vaccine soon because I would like to start traveling, but I will try to get J&J vaccine if I have a choice. 

No offense but even with full FDA approval and years on the market, there is risk with ANY medicine/vaccine. Drew also covered, very thoroughly, why a lot of the supposed fears are just unproven hype regarding mRNA vaccines. The fact is that, for now, it is better than doing nothing at all and just hoping for this mythical herd immunity that some have suggested around here.

[ykX]

40 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

YES! They have been working on these for decades! There is data going back to when AMC was still an independent company! 

mRNA maybe was researched for decades now but it wasn't widely used in any medication until now.  So no, you can't guarantee that.  If that would be the case these vaccines would get full FDA approval.

38 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

No offense but even with full FDA approval and years on the market, there is risk with ANY medicine/vaccine.

True, but statistically with large amount of data the risk is substantially smaller and usually known after years of use.

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, ykX said:

mRNA maybe was researched for decades now but it wasn't widely used in any medication until now.  So no, you can't guarantee that.  If that would be the case these vaccines would get full FDA approval.

True, but statistically with large amount of data the risk is substantially smaller and usually known after years of use.

In the 20+ years they've been researching this, there has been no indications of it being cancer causing.  Furthermore, due to the nature of the way it works, there is no reason to believe it even could be cancer causing.  Certainly watch the data for the unknown, but the mechanism with which this process works doesn't suggest that possibility.

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, ykX said:

mRNA maybe was researched for decades now but it wasn't widely used in any medication until now.  So no, you can't guarantee that.  If that would be the case these vaccines would get full FDA approval.

True, but statistically with large amount of data the risk is substantially smaller and usually known after years of use.

Again though, there were years of data available to multiple companies and that data is what bright the vaccine in the first place. The FDA emergency release mostly just bypasses the long red tape laden process that hinders more than it helps. 

[surreal1272]

An otherwise healthy 24 year old man needed a kidney AND lung transplant due to COVID.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/colby-vondenstein-lung-kidney-transplant-covid-171805750.html

[ykX]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

n the 20+ years they've been researching this, there has been no indications of it being cancer causing.

Researching is not the same is being widely used.  I gave cancer as just one possible side effect.  Historically, there are plenty of medications that had surprises later.  I am not saying that it will be the case with these, but I don't think anyone at this point can be absolutely sure something will not come up later.  I think it is common sense at least being cautious.