bowtie_dude

Things I'm tired of

102 posts in this topic

Ok, I know this is a GM fansite and all, but there's one thing we really need to stop. Defending GM cars JUST because they are GM's cars. I've been watching this for a while now, and use to do it myself. But after being inside of my 2001 Crapalier, I've come to a new understanding of what being a GM fan is, and now I'm going to spell it out. You CANNOT pretend that GM cars made before the 2005 MY are as good or better than their foreign counterparts. The 2004 Malibu is a POS compared to the 2004 Accord, a vehicle that was in production for, what? 2 years? Yeah. You CANNOT continue to pretend that GMs marketshare hemorrhage for the past 30 years has been due to the media and American publics hatred of Detroit steel. No, its because for 30 years, GM has built cars that weren't worth their weight in sheetmetal. Why is it that the interior in a $45k luxury sedan is put to shame by interiors in cars half its price? You can yell at publications all you want for bias and prejudice. Its unprofessional and shouldn't matter. BUT, can you really blame them? I can't. As GM fans, its no wonder we're so excited about the upcoming products. No one has ever seen a Chevrolet like the Impala, Tahoe, Cobalt, or HHR when it comes to interior refinement. Buick owners will be shell-shocked by the difference in their 2005 Lesabre and a 2006 Lucerne. And look at the media hurrah these new products are getting! People love the new Impala and HHR. Why? Because for the first time in 20 years, GM has put effort into its new cars and its showing. /rant *prepares to get yelled at* Edited by bowtie_dude
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no yelling, you're absolutely right

maybe these should be forum guidelines, or the rules for being GM fans, accept that your favorite car company makes craptacular cars.... :P

I love GM as much as the next guy, but cheerleaders will get them nowhere, and definitely not where I would like to see them go. Toyota's motto should be "Relentlessly pursuing perfection" [I know it actually was Lexus's motto], because that is where they are going. Until we discipline ourselves on how to be like that our cars will continue losing comparison tests.

GM: NO COMPROMISES!!!!!!! Edited by turbo200
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Wow, I wonder who this was directed at?

Ok, I know this is a GM fansite and all, but there's one thing we really need to stop. Defending GM cars JUST because they are GM's cars. I've been watching this for a while now, and use to do it myself. But after being inside of my 2001 Crapalier, I've come to a new understanding of what being a GM fan is, and now I'm going to spell it out.


True, but EVERY GM car has it's virtues.

You CANNOT pretend that GM cars made before the 2005 MY are as good or better than their foreign counterparts. The 2004 Malibu is a POS compared to the 2004 Accord, a vehicle that was in production for, what? 2 years? Yeah.


That's purely subjective and on a case by case basis. (EXAMPLE: Basically you're saying that the GMT800s are no better than the Tundra or that the C5 is no better than the Viper)

You CANNOT continue to pretend that GMs marketshare hemorrhage for the past 30 years has been due to the media and American publics hatred of Detroit steel. No, its because for 30 years, GM has built cars that weren't worth their weight in sheetmetal.


So you're saying that there is absolutely NO bias what-so-ever??? And that EVERY car GM has made for 30 years has been trash? The Buick Grand Nationals, Pontiac Trans Ams, Cadillac CTS/Escalade, Saturn SL, etc.

Okay.

You can yell at publications all you want for bias and prejudice. Its unprofessional and shouldn't matter. BUT, can you really blame them? I can't.


Yes because there is a difference between professional reporting and kicking GM in the teeth with sarcastic, imaginary, subjective comments just for the sake of hating American cars.

Besides, Detroit's contribution to the country should be enough for them to at least get a FAIR shake.

And look at the media hurrah these new products are getting! People love the new Impala and HHR.


You're kidding right?

You don't remember all of the discerning and horrible articles on the HHR by the analysts and journalists BEFORE IT EVEN DEBUTED?

You don't remember the Impala being virtually written off by the media during the LA Auto Show press conferences?

The media isn't going to make a miraculous 180 degree turn...And even if they did it wouldn't make up for 30 years of lies and deceit. (Sure GM wasn't at its best then but it wasn't the trash they made it out to be either)

Besides. Last time I checked this was an opinion blog anyway. Doesn't that conquer all?
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No, its because for 30 years, GM has built cars that weren't worth their weight in sheetmetal.

Just as reprehensible as 'defending everything made by GM' is one who whitewashes everything made by GM.
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no yelling, you're absolutely right

maybe these should be forum guidelines, or the rules for being GM fans, accept that your favorite car company makes craptacular cars.... :P

I love GM as much as the next guy, but cheerleaders will get them nowhere, and definitely not where I would like to see them go. Toyota's motto should be "Relentlessly pursuing perfection" [I know it actually was Lexus's motto], because that is where they are going. Until we discipline ourselves on how to be like that our cars will continue losing comparison tests.

GM: NO COMPROMISES!!!!!!!

[post="23991"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So Toyota is making a car that can tow 10,000 lbs, beat a Z06 around a racetrack, be more luxurious than a Bentley, seat 10 people, have a bed to haul stuff in, and get 60mpg?
Sorry there is no such thing as perfection. Perfect to you may not be perfect to me. The only thing they are perfecting is how to sell more cars to the general population while making more and more money. They do not make a single car I would want to own. Toyota is good at making everybody believe they make the best cars. Everybody already thinks Toyota is so economical, while they are adding another plant to build more gas sucking SUVs and trucks that cant even match GMs 7 year old SUVs. All because Toyota has 1 50mpg car they are the most fuel effiecient company and cares about saving the planet. GM isnt perfect, but neither is Toyota. I would like to see our country stop looking up to Toyota like some god, is that too much to ask for?
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So, what exactly is so much better about a Toyota?

Better reliability?

Not really.

Better asthetics?

Sure, but that definately doesn't make their cars appealing.

Better yet, Has every Toyota of the last 30 years been a STELLAR example of engineering and refinement to lust after?

The simple fact is this; Toyota makes LESS appealing cars than GM, Ford and Chrysler with roughly the same quality and roughly the same innovation. The only appeal they have is IMAGE. And that false IMAGE is perpetuated by the media, people who are stuck in the past or either want to ignore the present.

People are conformists... Everyone conforms to something and ANY social psychologist will tell you that most of us have 2 basic needs. The need to be liked and the need to be right. So, by telling people that they are no longer right by buying domestics (reliability, efficiency, etc.) and reinforcing that for 30 years while simultaneously telling people that they are no longer liked because they buy domestic cars (Buy calling them outdated or less intelligent or less stylish) while reinforcing that for 30 years, the media has caused a HUGE surge in import sales simply because people want to CONFORM to what is good without having to develop a new "Schema" ( think stereotype or an automated way of evaluating that stereotype) to think about it in a logical way through "Controlled Processes." Therefore, they become what I commonly refer to as "sheep" because they conform to something just because a supposed "leader" tells them they have to conform to be liked and right.

When they do this and are not satisfied with the car it creates what we call "Cognitive Dissonance" which is a feeling of guilt associated with not doing the right thing. The person knows they shouldn't have bought the car deep down, but to turn back now would be putting their "Positive Self Image" in jeopardy, THEREFORE they begin to justify and find excuses for doing what they did in order to save face. (Prius owners anyone)

If we can take down the media or at least begin to change perceptions of the media (One C&G member at a time) then we can destroy this system and subsequent HUGE lie. THAT IS WHY I PREACH ABOUT THE MEDIA CONSTANTLY

Cognitive Dissonance EXAMPLE: The Heaven's Gate cult (Remember, the people who thought the Hale Bop commet was trailed by a space ship that would take them all to the next realm) went to a telescope shop and bought a high powered telescope in order to see their space ship. When the ship was no where to be found instead of accepting the fact that there in fact WAS no ship, the cult members returned the telescope because they had convinced themselves (Through justification) that the telescope was somehow defective.
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GM has made some great standup products during the last 2 decades. There has been lots of developement. The Asian cars have not been "all that" themselfs. Then could someone please tell me - Isnt the Crapalier a Toyota ? I mean lets take the GM car that most of us here would never consider buying and throw that up like its the defination of a GM product. I just dont know :unsure:
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I agree with the first few posts of this thread before it all degenerated by the Cheerleaders.
Posted Image Edited by Croc
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I agree with the first few posts of this thread before it all degenerated by the Cheerleaders.
Posted Image

[post="24051"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

speaking of degeneration here comes the croc of ____ ! He even brought his Asian cheerleader.

Cant realize that in contrast to the haters that post here often there is also the fans. What a croc. So how about that Crapaliar ?
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I agree with the first few posts of this thread before it all degenerated by the Cheerleaders.

[post="24051"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Am I a cheerleader too? GM only has a few cars I would want to own, but thats still a few more than Toyota. I just think people think too highly of everything Toyota does.
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Am I a cheerleader too? GM only has a few cars I would want to own, but thats still a few more than Toyota. I just think people think too highly of everything Toyota does.

[post="24078"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


No you aren't. You were very objective in your post.
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speaking of degeneration here comes the croc of ____ ! He even brought his Asian cheerleader.

Cant realize that in contrast to the haters that post here often there is also the fans. What a croc. So how about that Crapaliar ?

[post="24064"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


There's a big difference between "fans" and "yes-men." Of course, knowing you, you're gonna start an argument over this. :rolleyes:

BTW the Asian cheerleader rocks.
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This rant wasn't directed at any one person, but a small group of roaming GM fanboys on this website.

First, please notice that I didn't say anything about trucks or SUVs in my post. The entire rant had to do with GM CARS, not trucks and SUVS.

Second, yeah...so the C5 was an outstanding sports car, lots of bang for your buck. Its ALWAYS been an exception to the GM rule, though its only recently gotten an interior worthy of a $50k car. You'll excuse me for omitting it.

Yes, the media is biased, I didn't say anything to the contrary. And yes, its unprofessional. But honestly, I would have a hard time being optimistic about new GM vehicles after so many years of "Its different this time," not being very different.

How can you sit inside a 98 Accord and a 98 Malibu and tell me that the Chevy is more worthy of your purchase? Its not. It may be just as reliable mechanically, but inside its years behind the Accord. And the same thing goes for the current Malibu vs the current Accord.
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How can you sit inside a 98 Accord and a 98 Malibu and tell me that the Chevy is more worthy of your purchase?  Its not.  It may be just as reliable mechanically, but inside its years behind the Accord.  And the same thing goes for the current Malibu vs the current Accord.

Reliability is objective: car breaks/costs money to fix)
Interiors are completely subjective, and thusly it's only "years behind" based on individual opinion, not facts. Some will prefer one over the other, simple as that.
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How can you sit inside a 98 Accord and a 98 Malibu and tell me that the Chevy is more worthy of your purchase?  Its not.  It may be just as reliable mechanically, but inside its years behind the Accord.  And the same thing goes for the current Malibu vs the current Accord.

Reliability is objective: car breaks/costs money to fix)
Interiors are completely subjective, and thusly it's only "years behind" based on individual opinion, not facts. Some will prefer one over the other, simple as that.

[post="24165"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


There's nothing subjective about the glaring differences in the Malibu and Accord.
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I'm definately not a "Yes man" (If people are thinking that) I b*tch about dumb things GM does morerso than most around here. Besides, it's not like it matters much.. My posting style certainly hasn't changed in the 4 years I've been on C&G and it certainly isn't going to anytime soon. This isn't directed at anyone in particular.. I'm just defending my name.
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I have been in that era Malibu, and I happen to belive it's one of the best designed, most appealing, most underrated GM interiors of that time. Plus they were an excellent value, with the V6 models selling in the mid-teens. The thing is, every time I drive or ride in a Japanese car I'm left wanting more. Based on all the positive attention they get from the media and from the people that buy them, I expect them to be leaps and bounds over the GM vehicles I've had experience with. Yet, when I step out of one, I'm usually left saying to myself, "That's it?? What's the big deal??"
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How much are you willing to pay for better looking knobs? The Malibu you are talking about was available for $20k (Canadian), easily $7k less than a comparably equipped Accord of the same era (V-6, ABS, etc.). HOw many times does the Malibu have to kick the Accord and Camry's ass (JD Powers, which takes into account plastics and aesthetics!) before critics get off GM's back? I was never a huge fan of the look of the Malibu, but it was a great seller and proved to be a reliable, cheap to maintain car. I delivered an Uplander to a customer on Saturday. The guy paid $21k, with a DVD, ABS, power everything. He made a few cracks about the fabric around the seats, the way the door slid shut and added that it was nowhere near the Sienna. Agreed, I said, but how much nicer do you want the fabric and door slider to be for TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS more(again, Canadian)? The Crapalier, you so affectionately refer to, was being sold for $12999 for about 18 months. The same Civic would have been $5,000 more. Is that worth it to you for a gutless motor, smaller interior and - oh, nice looking knobs and plastic? I doubt anyone here would argue that GM has been cutting edge in the small and mid-size car segments for five to ten years. The "truck bubble" of the 90s obscured the fact that our cars were starting to lag behind. I think the Cobalt, HHR, Impala, etc. are showing GM's renewed commitment and energy. I am a huge GM fan, but I also have been a big critic of our interiors for the last few years. I nearly wept at the Auto Show in 2001 when I looked at the Civic or Corolla interior, then at the Cavalier. But that doesn't make the car inferior. Chrysler has long proved this by spending the money on the cloth, buttons and door handles while producing some of the sh*ttiest cars on the market! Personally, I find most of the GM supporters on this site to be pretty balanced; it is the Asian car baiters that foam at the mouth whenever their precious Toyota is criticized or whenever someone chastizes them for buying an imported product.
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Huh... :huh: Croc thinks FOG and Razor are cheerleaders... Maybe Balthazar too. Interesting. Well, besides from his usual problems with everybody... Every post has a point. I do know that most GM vehicles weren't very great during the last few decades. But to say they are total crap is like saying Toyota is total perfection is incorrect. It just isn't the case. I also know that the media wasn't to blame for GM's vehicles then. But to say they are not biased and give each and every GM vehicle a fiar is incorrect. Again, it just isn't the case. Finally... The one who said "Fiero" is going to get his ass kicked. :lol: :D
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I have been in that era Malibu, and I happen to belive it's one of the best designed, most appealing, most underrated GM interiors of that time. Plus they were an excellent value, with the V6 models selling in the mid-teens.

The thing is, every time I drive or ride in a Japanese car I'm left wanting more. Based on all the positive attention they get from the media and from the people that buy them, I expect them to be leaps and bounds over the GM vehicles I've had experience with. Yet, when I step out of one, I'm usually left saying to myself, "That's it?? What's the big deal??"


The Malibus of that era just seemed like cheap rental cars inside...nothing special.
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Huh... :huh:

Croc thinks FOG and Razor are cheerleaders... Maybe Balthazar too. Interesting.

Well, besides from his usual problems with everybody... Every post has a point. I do know that most GM vehicles weren't very great during the last few decades. But to say they are total crap is like saying Toyota is total perfection is incorrect. It just isn't the case. I also know that the media wasn't to blame for GM's vehicles then. But to say they are not biased and give each and every GM vehicle a fiar is incorrect. Again, it just isn't the case.

Finally... The one who said "Fiero" is going to get his ass kicked. :lol: :D

[post="24219"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I didn't specifically call anyone out.
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The Malibus of that era just seemed like cheap rental cars inside...nothing special.

[post="24220"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


BINGO! Now I do like the current Malibu, but once again the interior falls short.
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BD: Sorry bud but I think you're exagerating for effect. Quite a bit actually. You have a point but don't judge all GM products by a 2003 J-car and as far as interiors in $45K GM cars they're NOT worse than Japanese cars costing $22,500. C'mon that's just insulting. My 1997 Caddy STS cost aboout that when new and the interior is on par with anything costing that much from any country. And my buddy's $33,000 1995 Riviera has an interior that is far nicer in every way than a typical $33,000 Jaopanese car. <_< That being said I think we can all agree GM has been firing on 5 of it's 8 cylinders as of late.
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