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HarleyEarl

HARDTOP

108 posts in this topic

I want to start a group of like minded individuals here at C&G for the return of the pillarless hardtop at GM.

Those who want to join in the plea to GM, could put it in their signatures etc.

I need help with the acronym.

H.A.R.D.T.O.P.

Here's a start:

'Hardcore Advocates for the Return of Detroit Tops Only as Pillarless'

Edited by HarleyEarl
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It would be a damn fine thing if we could do it. The problem is that only a very small part of the buying public cares.

I would guess if you rounded up all of the people in North America that were really upset about the B-pillar in the Camaro and such they would probably fill a pretty good sized church...and that's a fraction of buyers that GM, Ford, and chrysler will all round down to Zero.

Carnuts buy only a VERY SMALL minority of cars sold.

But if your serious, I am serious. but since on this car thread no one else has bothered to respond, all I can say is...

I have two sawzalls at the house. Which would you prefer, my Porter Cable 120v plug in or my 18v. Dewalt?

Chris

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Carnuts buy only a VERY SMALL minority of cars sold.

True, but we're not talking about not having a post on another ho-hum front wheel drive $h!box sedan for the masses. We're talking about not compromising on features on a vehicle that is marketed specifically towards the very car nuts you speak of.

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True, but we're not talking about not having a post on another ho-hum front wheel drive $h!box sedan for the masses. We're talking about not compromising on features on a vehicle that is marketed specifically towards the very car nuts you speak of.

Perfectly said...I nominate you for Head of General Motors.

Who knows, maybe someone somewhere will hear our feeble plea and bring back the sexiest roofline ever invented.

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Hey, Assholes! Re-Do Tops, Omitting Pillars!

Crude, but to the point. Which is what these people need because simple, polite requests and heartfelt dialogue doesn't seem to register with them at all.

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Hey, Assholes! Re-Do Tops, Omitting Pillars!

Crude, but to the point. Which is what these people need because simple, polite requests and heartfelt dialogue doesn't seem to register with them at all.

:rotflmao:

Thing is, people may not realize why a hardtop looks better, but they will notice that it does.

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Hmm.. seven posts into a thread singing praises about hardtops, and no sign of Silvester. I hope he's OK :unsure::P

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This has actually been on my mind for some time.

I would like to start my own group to defend the right of American cars to have center posts:

B-PILLaRS

Bitch Please, I Loathe the Lack of Roof Supports

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being a part of this board, and a part of camaroz28 for many years now... i still dont know what is so special about hard tops... or even how to identify them

if there is anything to be enthusiastic about, it wouldnt just be the carnuts that would buy it... if its different people will buy it...

America needs a new start up car company... and show the big guys how to make and sell cars the public wants...

being GM, and selling a car for everyone, has been very hard to see these days...

Edited by Newbiewar
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Harley, you know you're tugging at my heartstrings, right?

If there is ONE thing otehr then RWD that I think

makes a car worthy of restoration despite rust up

to the door handles, it's a hardtop greenhouse.

---

I think a lot more people would appreciate and favor

a hardtop if they only knew WTF it IS!

Most of today's public would not prefer a blackberry

over a regular cell phone at twice the cost if they

thought the only benefit was a plum-metallic case.

:rotflmao:

Thing is, people may not realize why a hardtop looks better, but they will notice that it does.

CARVE THIS INTO WAGONER's FOREHEAD!!!!!!!!!

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being a part of this board, and a part of camaroz28 for many years now... i still dont know what is so special about hard tops... or even how to identify them

That's sad. And you sell cars!!!!

I'll post a crash-course on the topic tonight, time permitting.

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That's sad. And you sell cars!!!!

I'll post a crash-course on the topic tonight, time permitting.

dont sell cars currently, although wish i could again, damn i loved it...

but im an enthisiast based on 4th gen f-bodys... not anything that has had a hard top like some of my friends classics

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Perfectly said...I nominate you for Head of General Motors.

Who knows, maybe someone somewhere will hear our feeble plea and bring back the sexiest roofline ever invented.

I would agree.

Chris

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I want to start a group of like minded individuals here at C&G for the return of the pillarless hardtop at GM.

Those who want to join in the plea to GM, could put it in their signatures etc.

I need help with the acronym.

H.A.R.D.T.O.P.

Here's a start:

'Hardcore Advocates for the Return of Detroit Tops Only as Pillarless'

Hillbilly Aardvarks Relentlessly Denying The Obvious Priorities

Don't waste your time.

True hardtops have approximately 15 percent higher risk of a non-ejection fatality in a rollover crash than pillared cars of the same size and exposure pattern.

Because of this fact, your friends at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Department of Transportation have implemented standards

that demand (in short) that all new vehicles subject to the standard that the roof structure withstand the force of 2.5 times their unloaded vehicle weight,

without significant headroom intrusion....convertibles are exempt from the rule because if you roll one - you are paralyzed or dead-

B-pillars aren't a f*cking option on a vehicle with an integral roof - GM didn't decide to put them in or leave them out on the Camaro!

There are also new side impact requirements that are unbelievable! Don't get me started. Structure isn't an afterthought or a maybe....

It's absolutely critical to good design! I thought we went through this before -remember?

New cars require lighter bodies and more strength! No more pillarless cars -never ever ....sorry. Next!

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/ruling...NPRM-to-FR.html

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Hillbilly Aardvarks Relentlessly Denying The Obvious Priorities

Don't waste your time.

True hardtops have approximately 15 percent higher risk of a non-ejection fatality in a rollover crash than pillared cars of the same size and exposure pattern.

Because of this fact, your friends at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Department of Transportation have implemented standards

that demand (in short) that all new vehicles subject to the standard that the roof structure withstand the force of 2.5 times their unloaded vehicle weight,

without significant headroom intrusion....convertibles are exempt from the rule because if you roll one - you are paralyzed or dead-

B-pillars aren't a f*cking option on a vehicle with an integral roof - GM didn't decide to put them in or leave them out on the Camaro!

There are also new side impact requirements that are unbelievable! Don't get me started. Structure isn't an afterthought or a maybe....

It's absolutely critical to good design! I thought we went through this before -remember?

New cars require lighter bodies and more strength! No more pillarless cars -never ever ....sorry. Next!

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/ruling...NPRM-to-FR.html

Then how come companies like Mercedes can still do it? Sorry, but until I see concrete evidence in black & white that the only reason I'm paying through the nose for such a vehicle (and not really, because a brand new 2009 CLK 350 hardtop coupe can be had starting as low as $47,675 which I GUARANTEE will be around the same price as an American competitor like the Cadillac CTS coupe will start out at) is the fact that an incredible portion of the vehicle's overall cost is associated solely with the fact that the roof has to be made out of some NASA-grade alloy or other such bull$h! to be up to snuff, I'm not buying the argument for a second.

Also, you said earlier that "convertibles are exempt from the rule because if you roll one, you are paralyzed or dead." And? Does that mean that while one acknowledges and assumes the risk of driving a convertible, they could never be expected to do so with a pillarless coupe or sedan? f@#k that! We want the choice!

And your link is broken just like the rest of your argument.

Edited by XP715
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Hillbilly Aardvarks Relentlessly Denying The Obvious Priorities

:lol:

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It can't be that hard to make an optional hardtop. If you've got a car that is designed as both a coupe and a convertible, then you take the convertible's beefed-up structure, and replace it with the coupe's fixed roof instead of teh heavier folding roof. It'll way more than the pillared coupe but less than the convertible.

And to those who think the convertibles aren't up to snuff:

The C70 received Good marks for front, back, and side impact, and this is with the roof down.

It isn't a question of can they do it, it's a question of whether or not it mkes business sense to spend the extra money to do it, and will more than a few thousand diehard enthusiasts actually, realistically, car at this point?

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Ugh, I am so tired of this country's addiction to "safety".

Life isn't safe, not if it's worth a damn.

Mostly, this alleged safety is more illusion than reality anyway. This super-sanitized version of life we have been building just makes me want to heave.

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i still dont know what is so special about hard tops... or even how to identify them

Wasn't there a recent topic/dicussion here on this subject? The reason the "hardtop" was introduced was for those people that liked the open-air driving you get with a convertible but wanted protection from the weather & sun over their head. A hardtop roof gives off the appearance of a metal convertible top; GM's designs, expecially in the early '60s cars, would even offer the look of a true convertible in metal form (see the '61-'62 formal rooflines on Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs for proof). When the windows were closed, there was a small "post" that would appear and that kept the windows on track (see the white Pontiac pic below). With all of the windows open, you have an almost true "open-air" driving experience, and the car looks totally cool to boot.

Here's a little lesson for you in what a hardtop roof looks like on various bodies (2-doors/coupes, 4-doors/sedans, etc):

1957 Chevrolet Bel-Air Sport Sedan:

1957-chevrolet-1.jpg

1961 Pontiac Ventura "Bubbletop" hardtop coupe:

passside.jpg

1962 Buick LeSabre Sport Roof: (note the roof design with convertible-like features)

62_Buick_008.sized.jpg

1957 Oldsmobile Super 88 Fiesta:

57_olds_Spr88_Fiesta_SW-dv_la_05_ptrsn_0

1957_oldsmobile_fiesta_super88_01.jpg

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I'm with MightyMouse!!!!

BAN all convertibles immediately.

And any and ALL ragtops, or any car without a B-pillar & steel roof over the

passanger's heads should be deemed obsolete and unregisterable!!!

As a matter of fact even sunroofs and moonroofs should be made illegal!

Let's just cut to the chase and issue everyone a goverment approved Yaris

4dr. for $20,000 or at a $7,000 premium upgrade price give the Camry

option.

MM:

I can not beleive YOU would advocate such filth as the extinction of the

hardtop. I guess we'll be yanking that built up V8 in your "fire engine red"

2-door sedan with frameless doors, CLEARLY you have to admit that

a car with high horsepower/weight ratio is unsafe due to oversteer and

the inherant temptation to blatantly defy the national 55-MPH speed limit.

You can have either an iron-duke or the 229-ci V6 that your car was

designed for.

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Wasn't there a recent topic/dicussion here on this subject?

I personally have posted at LEAST a dozen threads on

the topic in my 3.67 years here on this forum.

Supposedly, according to MANY here I beat the topic

to death, it's not that I have higher standards it's that

I'm unrealistic and dilusional.

God forbid we think outside of the C.Y. 2008 Corporate

Box, although even that's a cop-out as Mercedes, and

a few other luxury/exotic car manufactureres still make

2-door hardtops to this day.

And before one more moron says "the Camaro would

cost $47,000 just like the MB CLK if it had a hardtop

bodystyle" I'd like to remind you to politely STFU since

the B-pillared E-class that the CLK is based on does

NOT show a considerable savings over the CLK, all

equipt. being the same!

Put that in your pipe, go sit in your B-pillared modern

tylenol-box with wheels and smoke it!

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THESE UNSAFE DEATH-TRAPS MUST BE MADE ILLEGAL ASAP!!!

- Corvette targa & convertible

- XLR retractible hardtop

- G6 retractable hardtop

- Sky/Solstice

And that is just GM....

How DARE those selfish corporations that deem human

life to be expendable, what wiht not only a blatant

lack of a permenant, fixed B-pillar-ness but also a

complete lack of a steel, fixed, welded roof and

glued in rear side glass*

Thank God we live in a country where the masses allolw

the government to decide what is appropriate and safe.

* helps to aid exit a burning wreck in a post-accident

fuel/electrical fire! Nothing makes for eaesier egress

than a big permenant pane of laminated glass or a

tempered glass that is glued around all edges w/ a 3"

wide rubber-RTV style matterial.

[disgusted, sarcasm]

If it ever comes to that I'd rather be DEAD! <_<

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I'm with MightyMouse!!!!

BAN all convertibles immediately.

And any and ALL ragtops, or any car without a B-pillar & steel roof over the

passanger's heads should be deemed obsolete and unregisterable!!!

As a matter of fact even sunroofs and moonroofs should be made illegal!

Let's just cut to the chase and issue everyone a goverment approved Yaris

4dr. for $20,000 or at a $7,000 premium upgrade price give the Camry

option.

MM:

I can not beleive YOU would advocate such filth as the extinction of the

hardtop. I guess we'll be yanking that built up V8 in your "fire engine red"

2-door sedan with frameless doors, CLEARLY you have to admit that

a car with high horsepower/weight ratio is unsafe due to oversteer and

the inherant temptation to blatantly defy the national 55-MPH speed limit.

You can have either an iron-duke or the 229-ci V6 that your car was

designed for.

Actually it was never designed for an Iron Duke. Times change. Dont get me wrong I would love a 1975-76 Caprice 4-door hardtop. But as a whole frameless wondows in my experience are much harder to get to seal properly let alone also trying to seal the middle between the 2 windows.

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