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If GM is reduced to Chevy and Caddy

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They will have nothing left to sell to me anytime soon.

The only candidates will be:

Corvette: too expensive

Camaro: cool, but not individual enough for my taste

A Chevy truck: I won't need one until at least 2015

And that's it.

Nothing else comes anywhere close to what I'd buy.

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I would have the Cobalt SS. Already I'm scared that they will shut down the Solstice/Sky which is the GM car I most want right now...but at 300 units a month, it's not enough to keep any assembly lines rolling.

BTW, I wonder how long it took to build the 300 53 Corvettes.

...and I agree about the Camaro individuality thing. I love it but would rather have the Cobalt SS/Sky/Solstice.

It's a shame that the Astra has turned out to be such a dud, one of the best cars GM ever brought out in the North American marketplace.

Chris

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...I'm really wondering if there isn't a future for me as a biker or walker if the present trend continues. Seriously. If GM goes and the Accord/Camry/Altima type V6 jellybean car is all that is left, I'm getting a bike.

Chris

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I will continue to do what I have always done, only buy and drive what I like.

However, I may have to build them for myself if nothing I want is available new.

I will never buy a new car that doesn't fit my requirements. That means I won't settle for a sedan, or FWD, and so on.

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I'd settle for a sedan if it was a G8, or FWD for a MINI Cooper S or Cobalt SS. )Or perhaps a VW TDI.

But yeah, I can look at a whole parking lot of modern cars and see nothing that I'd want to own.

Chris

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I will continue to do what I have always done, only buy and drive what I like.

However, I may have to build them for myself if nothing I want is available new.

Totally agree with you. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again: when it comes time for me to purchase a home, it MUST have ample garage space because I see redoing a lot of old Cadillacs and Chevy/GMC trucks in my future.

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Totally agree with you. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again: when it comes time for me to purchase a home, it MUST have ample garage space because I see redoing a lot of old Cadillacs and Chevy/GMC trucks in my future.

You buy that '76 yet?

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I would love to own a Caddy someday- they were my first automotive love, but that's a few decades off.

I do not care for most Chevys, unfortunately; the Corvette is awesome, the Camaro, too, and I like their trucks (buddy has an '08 Silverado 1500 Crew 5.3- what a beautiful truck), but I am over here in a Chevy from the Ford truck camp; and with the job Ford does there- I could go right back.

But the biggest thing for me is, I may never buy new again- I cannot stomach the depreciation- all new cars suck in value retention vs. a 3-4 yr old car.

But if another GM division goes away, I will be heartbroken. Not to the point of swearing off GM, but heartbroken all the same.

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I would love to own a Caddy someday- they were my first automotive love, but that's a few decades off.

I do not care for most Chevys, unfortunately; the Corvette is awesome, the Camaro, too, and I like their trucks (buddy has an '08 Silverado 1500 Crew 5.3- what a beautiful truck), but I am over here in a Chevy from the Ford truck camp; and with the job Ford does there- I could go right back.

But the biggest thing for me is, I may never buy new again- I cannot stomach the depreciation- all new cars suck in value retention vs. a 3-4 yr old car.

But if another GM division goes away, I will be heartbroken. Not to the point of swearing off GM, but heartbroken all the same.

Well, we cross paths on many things, but the differences between us can be found in this post of yours as well.

I've never cared one whit about Caddy generally. I just don't have much love for luxury cars in general.

Chevy, on the other hand, used to build so many cars I loved that it was hard to pick any one out of the fleet. Not so much anymore, as most of the pride has left them and they are seen as generics (the Vette and Camaro excepted). As for trucks, I am a life-long Chevy truck buyer and have no intention of switching to any other brand. The final point of difference is that I am very willing to buy new, if they build something I really like. I did so with the Firehawk, and the GTO, and intend to do so again with the G8 ST. Without such cars, I simply won't bother with new.

I too, will truly be heartbroken if a real GM brand goes away. Hummer, Saturn, and Saab do not count.

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>>"Hummer, Saturn, and Saab do not count."<<

Agreed, completely.

I would buy new if I could justify it, budget-wise, but I have 2 sons and disposable income is earmarked elsewhere. Besides, for me- "new' is anything within 4 yrs old.

As for Cadillac, you know this is sourced from 'my era'; the '50s-60s, where Chevys usually could only afford to have 3-piece front bumpers, etc, while Cadillac was building 175+ possible different cars between models, trims & options. I do appreciate the -say- '56 Chevy (same buddy also owns a '56 Bel Air 2-dr), but waggle a '56 Eldorado Seville infront of me and I'm jello. A lot of it also comes from the back story; the innovation, detailing & the craftsmanship (pre-war thru the '70s). These cars were truely special, on par with the world's best, or better than them.

Spin the dial to today and I think the CTS is fantastic (both gens), and when I talk of possibly owning one of them someday, that's the type I'm thinking of. It will still pale in my book to a true classic Caddy, tho. I would enjoy a '28 CTS, but I would still daydream of a '60 Eldo Seville...

Best of both worlds : stick me in a '60s Pontiac.

Edited by balthazar

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Best of both worlds : stick me in a '60s Pontiac.

And this is exactly where our paths cross.

With Caddy I've always been indifferent, and only a handful of Olds and Buick models have ever had my attention.

But Pontiac has always had that edge of exclusivity and individuality that somehow turned a related Chevy model I already liked into a second-place finisher.

Even within the model spread at Pontiac, I would usually want to follow the path less travelled.

ex. : My Firehawk was a Formula and not a Trans Am.

So, despite my undying devotion to the El Camino, the Pontiac G8 ST is almost more perfect for me than a new 'Camino would have been.

Almost. :AH-HA_wink:

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I like the Malibu, as well as the CTS, and of course the Corvette and Camaro...that's about it.

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The problem with Chevy-Cadillac is no middle ground brand. If Chevy covers the bottom end and Cadillac the high end, a brand will still be needed to cover the middle end. I know Toyota has gotten away with just them and Lexus until a few years ago when Scion joined on, but that means there's Scion, Toyota and Lexus to cover three distinct buyers. Even Ford uses three brands to cover the market, and that's not counting the "commercial" side of the truck business.

Anyway, back to the question you posed... I know Cadillac won't go down in price, so even though I like the CTS lineup and the DTS, they'll be way out of my price range. As for Chevy, I do like the Camaro, though it really isn't on my radar as a possibility; the Cobalt is nice, but not really "me"; the Impala is outdated and too plain for my tastes; I like the HHR, but feel it is too small for my preferences; the Silverado/Tahoe/Suburban I like a lot but are out of my price range; the Colorado is okay, but would be a big compromise (I feel the same way about the Canyon too); I like the Equinox, but would rather have the Pontiac Torrent; the Aveo is no where near my want list; the Corvette, while awesome, is too far out of reach, plus isn't a good family vehicle; leaving just the Malibu, which fits the bill but I want the EpII for the wider platform before I own another Epsilon-based vehicle ('04 Malibu LT, '07 AURA XE, and the wife's '08 G6 V6).

Needless to say, should GM decide to cut Pontiac soon, I would be very inclined to buy a Pontiac G8 or Pontiac Torrent before the division closes. I'd have to plead to my Pontiac dealer and/or GMAC to make the last 10 payments of my AURA lease somehow "go away" so I could get my last Pontiac.

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The writing has been on the wall for Pontiac for sometime now. But just the thought of this division no longer exisiting

fills me with sadness. My father was a Pontiac guy, they were beautiful cars. Always two door coupes of course and a

convertible. Sad for Canada too, historically Pontiac has been popular here.

63pontiacxo9.jpg

Edited by HarleyEarl

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Well, if GM is reduced to Chevy and Cadillac, GM has more chance of getting anyone to buy their product than they do if GM is reduced to nothing at all... just sayin'.

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f@#king sad, this is. :(

Balthy: Anything within 5-years is considered "new" by you?

I'dgo as far as 7-8 years. :P

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I think GM can do OK with just Cadillac and Chevrolet. There won't be that big of a gap between a high end V6 Malibu and a low end Cadillac Alpha.

But I think Buick will survive. The Enclave proves that Buick can still sell expensive cars. Pontiac hasn't done well with an expensive cars in years. GM doesn't need 3 low cost brands (Chevrolet, Pontiac, Saturn).

Edited by ehaase

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The writing has been on the wall for Pontiac for sometime now. But just the thought of this division no longer exisiting fills me with sadness. My father was a Pontiac guy, they were beautiful cars. Always two door coupes of course and a convertible.

My dad was a big time Pontiac guy in his younger days too. His first car was a '70 Grand Prix SJ which was sadly totalled one night when he parked it on the street and ran into a pizza shop to pick up his food. He replaced it with a '70 Catalina convertible which he later gave to my mother for her first car while they were still dating.

Funny story about my dad's Catalina: it came through the Ford/Lincoln/Mercury dealership he worked at on trade for a brand new 1977 Lincoln Continental Town Coupe. He was immediately drawn to it because the car had very low mileage and was garage-kept its entire life; absolutely flawless..... except for the interior which was destroyed. As the story goes, the car belonged to the wife of a local business owner and was driven sparingly. The couple also owned some sort of big dog. So one day the lady takes the dog out for a ride and then runs into downtown to do some shopping, leaving the dog in the car. So some kids see the dog in the car and run up and start teasing it. The dog flips out and ultimately tore the seats and door panels of the car to shreds. The wife comes back and was so upset that she didn't even want to look at the car anymore. So my father tells the owner of the dealership he'll take the car as-is, shredded seats and all. The guy tells him he's crazy but sells it to him nonetheless for next to nothing. Little did he know that my father had a friend whose family owned a junkyard; he bought everything he needed for it for a hundred bucks, spent a weekend swapping it in, and he was rolling in style.

Anywho, back to the point: it's gonna be a sad day when we live in a world without Pontiac. It will make my need to own one all that more urgent. Anybody got a line on a '65 Bonneville convertible?

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Damn, I hate what's happening to American industries, American culture, the American dream.

I'm Canadian, but we have vested interest in what happens to the US.

We build many of the cars and trucks you drive. We share a culture.

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It will be a monumental error if Pontiac is killed.

And it won't save GM.

If GM pares down to just Cadillac and Chevrolet, they will never recover and it will only be a matter of time until the end.

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This is my view on what is going to happen.

If they get a financial baleout from the goverment, GM will eventually die.

If GM delcares bankruptcy, it will survive.

It will be a pared down GM, but it will survive.

In the end, I think it will be a Chevrolet/Cadillac GM. Two iconic nameplates.

Amazing events taking place, we are witnessing history. You will have many

stories to tell your grandchildren about what happened.

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>>"Balthy: Anything within 5-years is considered "new" by you? I'd go as far as 7-8 years."<<

To be blunt, I consider anything newer than 1980 'new'.

.>"My dad was a big time Pontiac guy in his younger days"<<

Grandfather:

'55 Star Chief Catalina 2-dr hdtp

'57 Star Chief 4-dr hdtp

'63 Catalina 4-dr hdtp

'66 Bonneville 4-dr hdtp

'69 Bonneville 4-dr hdtp

'72 Gran Ville 4-dr hdtp

'76 Gran Ville 4-dr hdtp

Father:

'63 Catalina 4-dr hdtp (took over his father's)

'70 Catalina 4-dr sdn

'77 Catalina Safari wagon

Me:

'64 Grand Prix 2-dr hdtp

'64 Catalina 4-dr sdn

'64 Catalina Ventura 4-dr sdn

'65 Catalina 2-dr sdn

'65 Bonneville 4-dr hdtp

'65 Bonneville 2-dr hdtp

'66 Grand Prix 2-dr hdtp

Brother:

'84 Trans Am 2-dr coupe

'68 Firebird 2-dr hdtp

'71 GTO 2-dr hdtp

'63 Tempest 2-dr sdn

>>"Anybody got a line on a '65 Bonneville convertible?"<<

I have a frame & powertrain if you're looking for a project....

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The thing a bout having 2 brands is it's very easy to manage and keep them from overlapping. You've got your bread-and-butter brand and your luxury brand.

You could theoretically have the BP Channel and have the three brands equal up to one brand:

GMC: Trucks - Canyon replacement, Acadia and Sierra

Pontiac: RWD Performance vehicles: G8, Solstice, Alpha,

Together they'd make one brand's worth of vehicles, and different from Chevy (if you did enough to make the GMC line different)

You could keep Buick as part of the channel just in a separate section of the showroom, sort of the Acura/entry level luxury brand, which could consist of the Enclave, LaCrosse replacement, a small premium car.

However this costs more money, and would have to, you know, actually be properly managed by someone who can walk and chew gum, so to speak. Those are the 2 big problems GM has long had and still does IMHO.

I would cut Saturn and Saab, both are sales failures. Whatever good product they might have in the pipeline could go somewhere else.

And of course sell off Hummer.

Edited by Dodgefan

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Since SAAB is stronger in Europe than here, and Saturn has some Opel-based models, why not give responsibility for SAAB and Saturn to GME, and keep the rest under GMNA direction?

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Since SAAB is stronger in Europe than here, and Saturn has some Opel-based models, why not give responsibility for SAAB and Saturn to GME, and keep the rest under GMNA direction?

Isn't GME responsible for Saturn's latest models/renaissance? Remind me, how successful has that been thus far? :P

Edited by Dodgefan

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It is a grave disappointment to hear the only surviving brands may be Chevy and Cadillac. It wouldn't bother me if Hummer, Saturn and Saab were nixed, but I hope Buick and Pontiac can survive. The reality is that whatever happens, it will be a much smaller GM Corporation, with less funds for new product development and persistent cash flow troubles. Sadly, the American dreams of so many are vanishing, forever. Of course, the collectibility of '60's thru late '70's GM products will soar, as long as the loyal GM supporters are around. The great era of GM dominance will not be seen again, and the demise started back with the Roger Smith era--irrepairably damaging the products in the eyes of U.S. consumers (i.e. the 'sameness' of products between the divisions, along with something such as the 'Cimmaron by Cadillac,' and eventual elimination of historically strong models/names). Next, the U.S. market is about to be assaulted by products from India and China . . .

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An uncle of mine had a '55 Pontiac just like that green and white one, Mr. Earl, except it was monotone metallic red. There's a picture of it somewhere with me standing in front of it at around age 2.

As a teenager during another recession, I had an epiphany that GM would some day consist of only Chevrolet and Cadillac. I hope that bleak vision never comes to pass.

Edited by ocnblu

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An uncle of mine had a '55 Pontiac just like that green and white one, Mr. Earl, except it was monotone metallic red. There's a picture of it somewhere with me standing in front of it at around age 2.

As a teenager during another recession, I had a vision that GM would some day consist of only Chevrolet and Cadillac. I hope that bleak vision never comes to pass.

blu...is there anyway you could post that photo of you and the Pontiac?..would love to see that.

interesting that you could see that happening to GM eventually...

lets see, what will be left?....Chevrolet, Cadillac, Ford and Jeep?

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It is a grave disappointment to hear the only surviving brands may be Chevy and Cadillac. It wouldn't bother me if Hummer, Saturn and Saab were nixed, but I hope Buick and Pontiac can survive. The reality is that whatever happens, it will be a much smaller GM Corporation, with less funds for new product development and persistent cash flow troubles. Sadly, the American dreams of so many are vanishing, forever. Of course, the collectibility of '60's thru late '70's GM products will soar, as long as the loyal GM supporters are around. The great era of GM dominance will not be seen again, and the demise started back with the Roger Smith era--irrepairably damaging the products in the eyes of U.S. consumers (i.e. the 'sameness' of products between the divisions, along with something such as the 'Cimmaron by Cadillac,' and eventual elimination of historically strong models/names). Next, the U.S. market is about to be assaulted by products from India and China . . .

I agree.

If there is one single individual to blame at GM it was Roger Smith.

He almost singlehandedly destroyed a great American company.

That with other realities have cinched the deal.

The events of today have slowly been coming. The great products

at the current GM were are too late to save it.

Crazy times we are in.

Just think, there are those that are so happy with GMs problems.

Can you imagine Ralph Nader's elation?!

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Isn't GME responsible for Saturn's latest models/renaissance? Remind me, how successful has that been thus far? :P

Ya...why not give them the whole brand to manage....

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It will be a monumental error if Pontiac is killed.

And it won't save GM.

If GM pares down to just Cadillac and Chevrolet, they will never recover and it will only be a matter of time until the end.

Yep. People will start thinking fire sale....

The only chevy I will be able to afford (if things don't get better) will be the Cruze....

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GM is in a pickle, that's for sure. Dealers are dying. Expect to see them close in the hundreds this year. Many of you guys have to realize that the average customer does not see Pontiac as being any different than Chevrolet. Despite the billions spent over the decades in marketing, most people don't care. If a few brand zealots feel that GM should die just because one or more divisions are going to close down - well, that is just sad.

Believe me when I say this: GM loses sales every day due to brand confusion. I must deal with at least 2 or 3 people a week (and that is out of very sparse traffic as it is) who walk in to our store and ask for the Acadia, G6 - and that's assuming if they can even remember the model they are looking for. Hell, I've had people confuse Chrysler with Chevrolet. :rolleyes:

If one or more divisions goes away it will be ugly - and painful. No doubt. But there are far too many dealers and there simply is not the development money to go around. Why, for example, should the Aura have even been broached? Couldn't more money have been spent on the Malibu and then release it 6 months sooner? The Traverse is rotting on our lot, but 2 years ago I could have sold a stink load of them.

I doubt GM would be foolish enough to kill models as well as brands. Of course, the G5, G3 could die (who would care?), but the G6 could be folded into the Chevrolet line, as could the Solstice. I think a case could be made for saving Buick, due to its popularity in Asia and because a mid-priced brand could flourish if GM's market share stays in the high teens.

A little birdie told me 2 years ago that Pontiac and GMC's days were numbered. Maybe if GM had more time to complete the P-B-GMC amalgamation south of the border and 'right size' the models things would work out okay. However, I suspect GM is going to have to prove to Washington that they have a workable long term plan and I just don't see how 8 brands can be justified.

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BPG could be very strong if GM had any money to invest.

Sports car: Solstice (coupe, convert)

Small car: Alpha Pontiac (sedan, coupe)

Small Midsize: Buick on SWB EPII, like TSX (I don't think Buick needs a small car the size of the Cruze)

Midsize: LWB Alpha Pontiac (sedan only)

Large Midsize: Buick on LWB EPII, like TL

X-Overs: 5-pass Buick (TE), 7-pass GMC (Acadia)

Truck: Sierra

Give GMC something fun like the Wrangler

That's 9 models, two of which have 2 body styles, and nothing should really compete with anything from Chevy or Cadillac besides maybe the two X-Overs. Then if Saturn has to stay just import small Opels. Corsa, Astra, Sky, and VUE should be the Saturn lineup. Bringing the Insignia is competing with Buick. That'd be almost no overlap, and technically the Saturns wouldn't cost anything to make, or at least very little since they're already Opels. The Buicks could be shared with China, and Holden could get versions of the Pontiac Alphas. Really the only things listed here that isn't intended to be a world product are the GMCs. Sierra shares plenty of volume with Sierra, and the Acadia would share plenty of volume with the Traverse, so really the Solstice and Sky and the GMC Wrangler are the only products that would cost much to make, and the Solstice/Sky platform just needs to be fine tuned, and the Wrangler can just be made from GMT355. These 4 brands should cost GMNA next to nothing outside of what it already plans to make for the rest of the world.

Chevy, Cadillac are also becoming global except for T900s. Saab is probably going to stay and be under GME control anyways, so they might as well be imported and sold here, too. Get rid of Hummer.

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Can you guys imagine this as the next Pontiac G6, with sedan, coupe and convertible bodystyles? What a stunner, and sooo much more expressive than the production Insignia.

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Here's my pa with my grandfather's Nassau Green over Braeburn Green 1957 Star Chief Catalina 4-dr hardtop at Yankee Lake, summer of '57. That's grandpa's buddy Jake Sherman's '56 Pontiac next to it.

RBD-57.jpg

Easily one of the best, most beautiful front ends ever to grace an automobile.

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Such a great photo. One, it's family, two, it has a Pontiac and three, its vintage black & white.

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Balthy, are you sure that's Braeburn Green?:AH-HA_wink:

I wish I had that picture of my uncle's car to post. I'm not sure who has it, my mom might.

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Two tone green just looks right on a lot of 50's cars. Thanks for the pic, balthazar.

Chris

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if i am correct i believe there were 37 different paint schemes for your chevrolet in '57 solids and two tones combined... hows that for color of your choice?

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post-436-1228231570_thumb.jpg

My dad used to love Pontiacs, before he defected to Chrysler in the '60s. In fact, he probably loved his Pontiac more than my mother.

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Cool, CARBIZ; and next door: a '60 Buick Electra 225 hardtop!

>>"In fact, he probably loved his Pontiac more than my mother."<<

Would it be crossing a line to ask if your father, your mother AND the Pontiac had anything to do... with you? :wink:

Edited by balthazar

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>>"if i am correct i believe there were 37 different paint schemes for your chevrolet in '57 solids and two tones combined... hows that for color of your choice? "<<

Looks like 30, but I don't know if that would include the Corvette or not- may be a few more there if not.

There were 39 in '55, tho...

COLOR SCHEMES

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Cool, CARBIZ; and next door: a '60 Buick Electra 225 hardtop!

>>"In fact, he probably loved his Pontiac more than my mother."<<

Would it be crossing a line to ask if your father, your mother AND the Pontiac had anything to do... with you? :wink:

Quite likely. They were married in October 1960 and I came along in March '61. :AH-HA_wink:

When I joked to my mother about the first hot summer night in June, back seat at the drive-in, etc. she just laughed - nervously.

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Quite likely. They were married in October 1960 and I came along in March '61. :AH-HA_wink:

When I joked to my mother about the first hot summer night in June, back seat at the drive-in, etc. she just laughed - nervously.

Heh-heh..I've always wondered if there was a correlation between the fact I was born 9 months to the day after my Dad's 50th birthday, which was a few months after my folks' 20th wedding anniversary...

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Wow. CARBIZ, hope I'm not crossing the line, but your mother was/is a beautiful woman!

My 55 chevy was two tone blue and white, (Skyline blue and india ivory) and my 57 chevy was two tone blue and white (India Ivory and Larkspur blue).

I love 1950's two tone cars...which is why the modern MINI is perhaps one of the few "newer" cars I can stomach.

Chris

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...... like mother, like son! :AH-HA_wink:

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Carbiz, please tell the broad to step aside so I can see more of THE CAR!:smilewide: :AH-HA_wink:

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Carbiz, please tell the broad to step aside so I can see more of THE CAR!:smilewide: :AH-HA_wink:

Good thing she isn't standing there today, you'd be lucky to see ANY of the grille for her, ah, rather wide beam.

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All the more reason to sell her a Silverado...

Chris

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All the more reason to sell her a Silverado...

Chris

No, she bought a brand new CR-V in June. :blink: Because my Aunt Rita knows more about cars than I do. :rolleyes:

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OCN, hold onto your hat, here's another of that old broad:

post-436-1228503191_thumb.jpg

Balthy - see I come from a family of good taste!

Edited by CARBIZ

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Thanks for the pic, 'Biz.

There is something incredibly romantic to me about a woman and a 50's car.

Chris

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Cool Carbiz, but how'd she get up there? That's a tall ass fender!

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Cool Carbiz, but how'd she get up there? That's a tall ass fender!

Wait'll I dig up the photo of li'l 5 year old mini-me sitting up in my dad's big-ass bulldozer. Now that's butch... Let me dig in the archives a bit.

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I have to find the pic...somewhere I have one of my Mom (5'0", petite blond) with her massive '58 Mercury Monterey 4dr, back in '58. And one of her w/ me circa 1973 w/ the '69 Mustang.

Edited by moltar

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The 69 Mustang has to rate as one of the most badass American cars ever.

I almost bought a 69 Mach 1 when I bought my 55 Chevy. The 69-70 Fastback Mustang was the very best of the Mustang breed, IMHO.

To me, the very best of the Camaro didn't come until much later, in the form of the LS-1 powered cars of 98-02.

Chris

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I think the '70 Mustang is the best looking, but I also like the first-gen Fastbacks, with their small size. I like Camaros and Firebirds from '67-'73. Every F-body that came after was an evolution of the '75-up car... a mistake, imo. Ford stayed more upright and user-friendly with their Mustang and consequently kept the sales crown. The new Camaro makes up for a lot of lost time, imo.

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I think the '70 Mustang is the best looking, but I also like the first-gen Fastbacks, with their small size. I like Camaros and Firebirds from '67-'73. Every F-body that came after was an evolution of the '75-up car... a mistake, imo. Ford stayed more upright and user-friendly with their Mustang and consequently kept the sales crown. The new Camaro makes up for a lot of lost time, imo.

I'm partial to the '69 since I own one, like the 4 headlight front better than the '70 front. But the '70s are great--I'd love to have a '70 Mach 1. Never cared for the '71-73 Mustangs, in fastback form they looked huge. I like the '67-68 Mustangs also.

I like the Camaros and Firebirds from '67-73 also, and '74-75 Firebirds..Pontiac handled the larger bumpers better than Chevy did, IMHO. About the only year of the Firebird I didn't really like was the '69, preferred the '67-68 grille I suppose.

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>>"Balthy - see I come from a family of good taste! "<<

You do..... tho I now realize these are sheeps in wolf's clothing; Canadian Pontiacs, which means Chevy chassis's & powertrains.

I like to think of them as greatly classed-up Chebbies...

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