Poll: Where will Pontiacs sales go

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM would be close to dead last. Sure, I'd consider the Camaro... however, GM has burned its bridges with me, after eating, breathing, living GM my entire life. No Olds. No Firebird. Hardly any RWD. No roomy cars. Hardly any coupes. The demise of Pontiac would be the final straw, and would earn GM an automota non grata status. I'll live my GM enthusiasm in the classics.

To be honest, as the GM news has gotten bleaker, I've been putting a lot more time into my existing "classics", as I think they might be the last of the breed. I'm seriously saddened. Its like a funeral that won't end.

FTW!

[Intrepidation]

I'll give you the Mazda 3 and DEFINITELY Mitsu... But the Accord V6?!!? LOL.

Well the Accord V6 is a much better car and more sporty (in coupe form especially) than the G6.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well the Accord V6 is a much better car and more sporty (in coupe form especially) than the G6.

True that... I actually have taken a strange liking to the coupe. But it in NO way conveys the image of a Pontiac, Mitsu or Mazda. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the owner of said Accord would hiss and scowl at you for the mere suggestion of such a similarity.

[Blake Noble]

That's not true. I like Pontiacs because of history and value.

[...]

GM would be close to dead last. Sure, I'd consider the Camaro... however, GM has burned its bridges with me, after eating, breathing, living GM my entire life. No Olds. No Firebird. Hardly any RWD. No roomy cars. Hardly any coupes. The demise of Pontiac would be the final straw, and would earn GM an automota non grata status. I'll live my GM enthusiasm in the classics.

To be honest, as the GM news has gotten bleaker, I've been putting a lot more time into my existing "classics", as I think they might be the last of the breed. I'm seriously saddened. Its like a funeral that won't end.

So well put. This post sums up my feelings about GM precisely.

[CaddyXLR-V]

So based on the results, GM will keep 1/3 of Pontiac's sales when they kill the brand. That is probably a high estimate, since this is a GM fan website, and outside here people have even less loyalty to GM than we do. Looks like GM will be losing a lot of sales.

[turbo200]

True that... I actually have taken a strange liking to the coupe. But it in NO way conveys the image of a Pontiac, Mitsu or Mazda. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the owner of said Accord would hiss and scowl at you for the mere suggestion of such a similarity.

i'm gonna say this first. it's time we all just celebrate the history we have, the history of pontiac, and the other brands, and the history of our support. we should look forward to the things that made us believe in them, allowing us to believe and have faith in something new. we should celebrate the ideas we bring forth, and try to see the reason and rationality in them. the company we're looking at here, has very little time left as what it is now. and we should not speculate or engage in endless debate or what should or should not happen. all we can do is let it unfold and have faith whatever happens will be a good thing. in the end, the continuation of this car company has little to no effect on our personal lives [aside from the very personal effect a potential closure could have on many workers in the company].

that said, accord is a good car man. really good. you should give it a test drive one day. the sedan is practical but sporting. the coupe takes all that sporting nature and injects some really attractive style into it. it's not perfect, but few cars out there are [sure there are some perfect designs out there, but there are other faults with those cars in many cases]. it has a lot of performance, like all hondas, is super pliant, very stable and absorbed with road actions. the engine is great. it has a lot of passion and performance, two attributes i'd say pontiacs used to have a lot of.

[Satty]

Well, look at that...

The thread isn't even 2 pages old when someone comes in and starts insulting C&G's "second class citizens"

Out of curiosity, does the fact that I've spent most of the last year being bashed about my car qualify me for "second class citizen" status?

[CaddyXLR-V]

Out of curiosity, does the fact that I've spent most of the last year being bashed about my car qualify me for "second class citizen" status?

Yes.

Just kidding.

Toyota gets an unfair reputation because of the Prius also, but in their case it's a positive reputation. Just because the Prius is good on gas doesn't mean all other Toyotas are good on gas also.

But for Pontiac, just because GM keeps cloning junk and putting a Pontiac grille on it, that doesn't mean the brand is all bad. Pontiac has had a lot of high performance vehicles compared to other GM brands. Fiero has good performance for it's time, then the Turbo Trans Am, the SC 3.8 L Grand Prix long before any Chevy got the engine, and the Buicks with the engine were heavier. The Solstice, the G8, the GTO. Chevy always only had the Camaro and Corvette. Their SS line doesn't compare with most of the Pontiacs I just mentioned. Even the quad 4 Pontiacs had more performace than their GM counterparts. If GM would just stop with their knee jerk reaction of cloning Malibus Cobalts or Cavaliers and sending them to Pontiac, Pontiac would be a much stronger brand.

[Camino LS6]

camino, by the time you buy, there will prob be a used CTSv available for cheap

Yeah, but I don't much like the CTS - or Cadillac in general.

I respect the car, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

[Intrepidation]

Pontiac's problem has along been that the number of $h! piles, or cars that just don't belong with the "sporty/performance" image Pontiac represents, or fleet queens far out ways the cars that do, and have for the better part of 3 decades now.

So for Every G8 and Solstice you have a G3, G5, G6, Torrent

For every Firebird you had a Sunfire, Grand Am, Sunbird, Aztek

etc.

At least GMC has stood for trucks and innovation (Quadra Steer, Envoy XUV). Of course one could argue that it's being diluted now too, with the unibody Acadia which is basically the same as the Outlook, and now the Terrain....the unibody box that the new Equinox came in.

Buick has had a stodgy image for some time, and it's had plenty of half assed products, but the brand still has a premium image in the mind of many people...so it only has to work through the stodgy image in America. Over in China it's very successful.

[SAmadei]

your definition of affordable must be way diff from mine. most bimmers i know start closer to 40k. pontiac has never, and can never survive in that area.

You're right, Pontiacs need to be cut rate compared to BMWs. But they can still have swagger... like the G8 GT... a bargain in the high 20K range (with incentives). I only want the $38K GXP to have something special.

Speaking of affordable... there are NO affordable new cars when they lose half their value driving off the lot. Used cars are the affordable ones.

Is a 38K Pontiac affordable? Perhaps not, but I want something special. I hold on to cars for a long time, I don't get stung by resale problems three years later, so I'd get my dollar's worth. Plus, in my case, I will likely pop for the $8K Magunson supercharger and intercooler... so I likely will be looking at a nearly $50K Pontiac.

Of course, everything is relative. My friend was thinking about replacing his F150. Problem is, in order to get all the options on his current truck, he is creeping into the higher 40K range... for a pickup truck!

One other note, one of the reasons I still have stayed away from the BMW and Mercedes cars is that I really hate the smug snobby stereotype that follows with them. Suddenly, you neighbors think you hit the lottery... eh, its BS. I'll need a bumper sticker for any potential future BMW (assuming PCS doesn't force FWD on the lineup) that says "I actually prefer my 40 year old, rusty American car." ;-)

I was at the dealer today. They were not even slightly interested in selling me a car. Stunning. Claimed he had some G8 GXPs... showed me some buck-toothed G6 GXPs, with a take-it-or-leave-it attitude. There was a G3 there, it was cute in it's too-tiny-to-drive size.

[SAmadei]

Pontiac's problem has along been that the number of $h! piles, or cars that just don't belong with the "sporty/performance" image Pontiac represents, or fleet queens far out ways the cars that do, and have for the better part of 3 decades now.

So for Every G8 and Solstice you have a G3, G5, G6, Torrent

For every Firebird you had a Sunfire, Grand Am, Sunbird, Aztek

This has been argued for years... but it's always been this way.

In 1957 you had the fantastic fuel injected Bonneville. But for every one, ten plain Chieftains

In 1969 the Judge ruled the roads. GM sold a mostly LeManses, Tempests and Catalinas.

In 1978/9 the Trans Am hits crazy heights. GM was selling 6 cyl Firebirds, Phoenixes and Sunbirds.

We look back at the old Chieftains, LeMans, Tempest, Firebirds with endearment. But back then, people considered them $h! piles.

You need the $h! piles, so that people who come in intending to buy a halo car don't leave empty handed when turned down for financing.

When President Obama Jr takes over in 2037, and you are assigned your personal electric transportation unit, you will think back fondly of the revving engine of the G3 you passed up. Then you will put in your trip application, and will hope you are allowed to drive to the supermarket this week. ;-) JK.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Pontiac's problem has along been that the number of $h! piles, or cars that just don't belong with the "sporty/performance" image Pontiac represents, or fleet queens far out ways the cars that do, and have for the better part of 3 decades now.

So for Every G8 and Solstice you have a G3, G5, G6, Torrent

For every Firebird you had a Sunfire, Grand Am, Sunbird, Aztek

etc.

At least GMC has stood for trucks and innovation (Quadra Steer, Envoy XUV). Of course one could argue that it's being diluted now too, with the unibody Acadia which is basically the same as the Outlook, and now the Terrain....the unibody box that the new Equinox came in.

Buick has had a stodgy image for some time, and it's had plenty of half assed products, but the brand still has a premium image in the mind of many people...so it only has to work through the stodgy image in America. Over in China it's very successful.

But that is not solely a Pontiac problem. Every GM brand suffers from it. There are no other affordable brands that only sell performance cars. Mazda has minivans, Nissan has the Versa, Mitsubishi has plain econocar Lancers. Making Pontiac purely an affordable performance brand is new territory for any company, and I don't think Pontiac's previous mistakes should mean the brand will always only be Chevy clones.

[MyerShift]

I have voted "other" because although I love the feel of VW's, and would have chosen VW/Audi, Hyundai would probably be my other choice because of greater reliability, greatly improved and acceptable quality, and of course products like the Genesis Coupe.

Pontiac has always been irrelevant to me and has NEVER really offered anything that comes close to what I'd be interested in.

[Intrepidation]

But that is not solely a Pontiac problem. Every GM brand suffers from it. There are no other affordable brands that only sell performance cars. Mazda has minivans, Nissan has the Versa, Mitsubishi has plain econocar Lancers. Making Pontiac purely an affordable performance brand is new territory for any company, and I don't think Pontiac's previous mistakes should mean the brand will always only be Chevy clones.

Mitsubishi is an everyman brand like Chevy, with a few performance cars Pontiac is supposed to be a performance brand but only has a few performance cars.

Mazdas, even the minivans, are sporty, with the exception of the 2 Ford rebadges.

Hell, if Pontiac had Mazda's product it would adhere much more closely to Pontiac's sporting mission.

[Daryl Z71]

Good question.

Yes, there are other reasons for me to choose Challenger over Camaro. I've never really been a "pony car" guy, I prefer the "musclecar" heritage. Yes, I loved my Firehawks, but my GTO was more like what I have always gravitated to in a car. The Challenger fits that bill more exactly than does Camaro.

Had Chevy done a new Chevelle (as was the plan initially), I'd be right there. I really like the new Camaro (and the Mustang for that matter), but a more mid-size coupe based performance car has always been the sweet spot for me.

So Challenger wins.

With all of that said, there is no real "gotta have" for me right now after the ST's cancellation.

I will wait and be content with what I have or can find in used/classic cars until something else is good enough for me to spend new car money.

What I won't do, is settle for anything less.

I know if something happens to GM my next new vehicle will be from Ford. Dodge makes some real nice stuff, but anymore Ive been eyeing up Fords lately.

[Camino LS6]

I know if something happens to GM my next new vehicle will be from Ford. Dodge makes some real nice stuff, but anymore Ive been eyeing up Fords lately.

Ford has been doing lots of things I find interesting in an academic sort of way.

But nothing really grabs me - yet.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Mitsubishi is an everyman brand like Chevy, with a few performance cars Pontiac is supposed to be a performance brand but only has a few performance cars.

Mazdas, even the minivans, are sporty, with the exception of the 2 Ford rebadges.

Hell, if Pontiac had Mazda's product it would adhere much more closely to Pontiac's sporting mission.

The Mazda 3 and Mazda 6 are sportier than the G5 and G6, but they are hardly performance cars, and they have nothing to match the G8. The GTO was much nicer than the RX-8. I would say the brands are about even.

A few is all that's needed, and the ones that are not performance cars should go away. Pontiac is still closer than any other GM brand to being a dedicated performance brand. For that matter, Pontiac is about as close as any brand to being a dedicated performance brand, and still has a solid foundation to build off of.

I guess my point is, there is no 100% affordable performance brand currently, and would be the perfect niche for Pontiac. Mazda's weren't always the sportiest cars available, but no one accuses them of being tricked into 626s or 160hp Mazda 6s because they though they were performance cars. I owned a 626, so I know exactly how sporty they weren't.

[Intrepidation]

Performance isn't just about horsepower. Performance is about the package. About how balanced a chassis is, the brakes, the steering, the suspension tuning, etc. Mazda shines here. GTO Better than the G8? not really...they're two different types of cars but both performance cars.

Mazda built up their sporty reputation thought the whole lineup over the last decade or so. Pontiac could do it, but it's been watered down and has image working against it, as well as the lack of money....the former almost being worse than the latter.

If Pontiac was a one or two car dedicated performance brand that would be fine....but the problem is that GM wants to kill both of the performances cars it has one way or another....and of the two only one really stands above the competition.

Very bad situation.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Pontiac can be kept around for cool sporty cars, however most of their other cars are no more interesting than the Chevy equivalent and it is redundant and inefficient to have 2 of the same car.

For instance, if Pontiac only had RWD cars that were all geared for sweet handling, great power, and general funness, then it is fine since Chevy probably will not have an equivalent car to that

Edited April 10, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Dsuupr]

Funny, I was looking for rental cars yesterday and all I could find was Chevys.

As of late, it seems that toyota and Hyundai are the Kings of rental fleet.

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac can be kept around for cool sporty cars, however most of their other cars are no more interesting than the Chevy equivalent and it is redundant and inefficient to have 2 of the same car.

For instance, if Pontiac only had RWD cars that were all geared for sweet handling, great power, and general funness, then it is fine since Chevy probably will not have an equivalent car to that

Except for Camaro and Corvette.

Make the rest of the true performance offerings Pontiac exclusives, and the job is done.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Performance isn't just about horsepower. Performance is about the package. About how balanced a chassis is, the brakes, the steering, the suspension tuning, etc. Mazda shines here. GTO Better than the G8? not really...they're two different types of cars but both performance cars.

Mazda built up their sporty reputation thought the whole lineup over the last decade or so. Pontiac could do it, but it's been watered down and has image working against it, as well as the lack of money....the former almost being worse than the latter.

If Pontiac was a one or two car dedicated performance brand that would be fine....but the problem is that GM wants to kill both of the performances cars it has one way or another....and of the two only one really stands above the competition.

Very bad situation.

I owned a Mazda 626, it was not sporty. It had body roll, and was not fun to drive through the curves. My passat was 5x as much fun as the 626 was through the curves. I had a base 4cyl Grand Am that was quicker, handled better, and had less body roll than the top 626 V6. The 626 is a good car, but it was not sporty.

The RX8 is boy racer. Your right when you say the GTO is not like it.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Another thing, we had an old Pontiac 6000, and even that was sporty for it's time, and the 4cyl was surprisingly quick.

[Camino LS6]

I find the fragmented nature of the voting to be interesting.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I find the fragmented nature of the voting to be interesting.

Another interesting thing is that not a single person picked Buick. How is Buick going to pick up the slack from losing Pontiac?

And less traffic in the dealership when Pontiac is gone, means even less sales for Buick.

Edited April 10, 2009 by CaddyXLR-V

[wildcat]

. . . not a single person picked Buick . . .

I would have voted for Buick but I didn't like the way Chevrolet / GMC / Cadillac were grouped together and Buick was separated, so I declined to participate in the poll.

Anyway, I think the idea is that Buick will "pick up the slack," as it was put, by having better Buicks and more Buicks... not necessarily being a replacement for Pontiac itself. Chevrolet will serve that purpose (for those who liked Pontiacs, Chevy is the next cloesest thing in their minds).

[Oracle of Delphi]

I would have voted for Buick but I didn't like the way Chevrolet / GMC / Cadillac were grouped together and Buick was separated, so I declined to participate in the poll.

Anyway, I think the idea is that Buick will "pick up the slack," as it was put, by having better Buicks and more Buicks... not necessarily being a replacement for Pontiac itself. Chevrolet will serve that purpose (for those who liked Pontiacs, Chevy is the next cloesest thing in their minds).

I noticed that too, I thought that was very odd ...

[CaddyXLR-V]

I noticed that too, I thought that was very odd ...

I just wanted to see how many would go to Buick, which couldn't be done if it was grouped together with Chevy and GMC.

[CaddyXLR-V]

And a side note to any Buick fan who is ok with Pontiac being cancelled, once Pontiac is gone, Buick won't survive too much longer. I think the best chance of Buick surviving depends on Pontiac surviving also.

[ZL-1]

And a side note to any Buick fan who is ok with Pontiac being cancelled, once Pontiac is gone, Buick won't survive too much longer. I think the best chance of Buick surviving depends on Pontiac surviving also.

The best chance of Buick surviving depends on Chinese market sales.

On another note, and from a thread over at the other GM enthusiast website, it appears the 2010 Astra will be the new Buick Excelle in China.

[Satty]

Going back to the fleet-central numbers, Buick had roughly 40,000 fewer retail sales than Pontiac with half as many models, the least expensive of which has an MSRP of about $26k, about the same as the base price of the top-of-the0line Pontiac.

[Oracle of Delphi]

And a side note to any Buick fan who is ok with Pontiac being cancelled, once Pontiac is gone, Buick won't survive too much longer. I think the best chance of Buick surviving depends on Pontiac surviving also.

You really do live in a dream world ... :rotflmao:

On a side note, your poll isn't to valid when people refuse to vote in it because of the way you have it set up ...

[wildcat]

. . . once Pontiac is gone, Buick won't survive too much longer . . .

You don't know exactly what GM is planning on doing, do you? If not, please don't condemn Buick without giving them a chance.

[CaddyXLR-V]

You don't know exactly what GM is planning on doing, do you? If not, please don't condemn Buick without giving them a chance.

GM has a track record.....

And it isn't full of success

[CaddyXLR-V]

You really do live in a dream world ... :rotflmao:

On a side note, your poll isn't to valid when people refuse to vote in it because of the way you have it set up ...

So someone won't pick their BRAND of choice, because it's not lumped in together with other brands, that makes it invalid? Your brand of choice is your brand of choice whether the answer is Chevy/Buick or just Buick. Since I didn't ask people to pick multiple brands, I feel it is completely valid.

[CaddyXLR-V]

The best chance of Buick surviving depends on Chinese market sales.

On another note, and from a thread over at the other GM enthusiast website, it appears the 2010 Astra will be the new Buick Excelle in China.

How does that matter if their sales go to 0 in the US, which is the market I'm referring to?

[CaddyXLR-V]

You don't know exactly what GM is planning on doing, do you? If not, please don't condemn Buick without giving them a chance.

I wish people wouldn't condemn Pontiac without giving them a chance, but since that will never happen, why should Buick get a free pass?

[Oracle of Delphi]

So someone won't pick their BRAND of choice, because it's not lumped in together with other brands, that makes it invalid? Your brand of choice is your brand of choice whether the answer is Chevy/Buick or just Buick. Since I didn't ask people to pick multiple brands, I feel it is completely valid.

Would have been a more valuable poll had you listed all the options separately ...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Would have been a more valuable poll had you listed all the options separately ...

Was still valuable to me. The one person who didn't vote, is probably someone who wouldn't buy a Pontiac in the first place and would buy a Buick anyway. The poll was meant for people whos brand of choice is Pontiac or is at least considering purchasing one, not Buick.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Was still valuable to me. The one person who didn't vote, is probably someone who wouldn't buy a Pontiac in the first place and would buy a Buick anyway. The poll was meant for people whos brand of choice is Pontiac or is at least considering purchasing one, not Buick.

How do you know it was only one person that didn't vote, you can't be sure of that ... This grouping was really odd to me (Chevy/GMC/Cadillac) planning on starting a Canadian dealership ???

[wildcat]

I wish people wouldn't condemn Pontiac without giving them a chance, but since that will never happen, why should Buick get a free pass?

I can only answer for myself, and I have NEVER criticized Pontiac. Please don't lump me in with others.

[Camino LS6]

Would I have done the poll this way?

No.

But the results are still interesting.

[CaddyXLR-V]

How do you know it was only one person that didn't vote, you can't be sure of that ... This grouping was really odd to me (Chevy/GMC/Cadillac) planning on starting a Canadian dealership ???

I just felt like singling out Buick from the rest of GM

Hey maybe they will be Chinese owned shortly. Then there would be nothing odd about my grouping.

[ZL-1]

Going back to the fleet-central numbers, Buick had roughly 40,000 fewer retail sales than Pontiac with half as many models, the least expensive of which has an MSRP of about $26k, about the same as the base price of the top-of-the0line Pontiac.

And there's the reason why Pontiac is getting the axe instead of Buick.

How does that matter if their sales go to 0 in the US, which is the market I'm referring to?

Buick sales won't magically drop to zero in the US. In fact, with Pontiac and Saturn out of the picture, Buick might have a chance to actually grow.

[wildcat]

Was still valuable to me. The one person who didn't vote, is probably someone who wouldn't buy a Pontiac in the first place and would buy a Buick anyway. The poll was meant for people whos brand of choice is Pontiac or is at least considering purchasing one, not Buick.

I think the poll is consistent with what has been expressed in the past. Chevrolet is a more direct replacement for customers who presently own a Pontiac than Buick.

And, logically, the poll shows "Chevy/GMC/Cadillac" highest with, at this writing, 10 votes; Ford next with 6 (and certainly some people on this website have indicated they will switch their allegiance to Ford, so that's consistent); BMW/Mini with 5 (reasonable, given that Pontiac was recently called, whether rightly or wrongly, an "American BMW"); a tie for Mazda, Nissan, and Chrysler with 4 each (Mazda and Nissan being sporty like Pontiacs are typically thought of by most, and I'm unsure if Dodge is lumped in with Chrysler or is left for Other, but since the Dodge Charger was compared to the Pontiac G8, that makes sense, too).

Again, I don't think Buick is intended to be the direct replacement for Pontiac, so I wouldn't expect Pontiac owners to, all of a sudden, "switch" to Buick.

[Camino LS6]

Again, I don't think Buick is intended to be the direct replacement for Pontiac, so I wouldn't expect Pontiac owners to, all of a sudden, "switch" to Buick.

That certainly won't happen.

I would like to have seen Chevrolet as a single choice in the poll.

That would have answered my questions a bit more.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I would like to have seen Chevrolet as a single choice in the poll.

Exactly ...

[Camino LS6]

Even so, I think the real answer to the poll question is "away".

[CaddyXLR-V]

This poll still answered the questions I had. It was mainly to see if GM would keep Pontiac buyers or lose them, and if they lost them, would they going to other brands perceived as sporty.

The answer to those 2 questions are Lose them, and yes they will go to other sporty brands, or switch to another domestic automaker, about evenly split between sporty or domestic.

Edited April 10, 2009 by CaddyXLR-V