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evok

Death of the V8?

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I believe the HP wars are reaching their limits and peaks. The V8 engine is slowly becoming archaic in the passenger vehicle market for that very reason. Modern 4s and 6 have pushed vehicle performance to sports car territory of only a few years ago.

You can only go so fast to 60 mph or the ¼ mile. in real terms. The buff magazines might split hairs over 0 -to-60 times, but the average consumer will not.

For that very reason, the V8 for passenger vehicles may soon be phased out because it no longer matters.

GM had already cancelled the V10 because they could do the same thing with the LSx V8 in the full sized utilities and pickups. The V10 might have made headlines in the press and media but that would be about it. How much longer until a V6 can do exactly what a V8 does as technology progresses further.

With power rating increasing across the board for passenger vehicles of all types and powertrain configurations, how much longer does the V8 have left beyond what a V12 application has today?

Beyond specialty applications and limited edition vehicles, I am finding less and less of purpose for the V8 even in the more or less main stream luxury market.

For some it could be argued that a Hybrid powertrain might be the image powertrain of the future. That seems to be the approach Lexus is taking with their top of the line powertrain offerings.

In the not to distant future, the V8 might be relegated to a novelty status in the industry.

It is reaching the point where naturally aspirated V6s have 300+hp. I am finding less and less of a point of the V8 beyond that applications I mentioned above.

Before readers fly off the handle at what I just suggested. Step away from the computer and just think about what I did write.

Edited by evok

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I think you're correct, but that doesn't mean I like it.

The down side is even a 300hp V6 doesn't have the low down torque a 300hp V8 has.

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Are V6s going to be making 350-400HP in the future N/A? If so, the V8s days are numbered, but I still see a market for V8s in Corvettes, Camaros, Mustangs, GTOs, 300Cs, Chargers, and the Zeta cars.

Really, V8s aren't very common anyways. Other than the Corvette, SSR, GTO, V-Series cars, and trucks and SUVs, the only GM V8s I can think of are: GP GXP, Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, STS, DTS, XLR, and Lucerne. And the Impy SS, MC SS, and Lucerne didn't have V8s before MY2006.

None of the vehicles I listed sell in very high volume, so you could say the V8 is already phased out of passenger cars for the most part.

BTW I'm going to put this on the front page.

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BTW I'm going to put this on the front page.

That is fine with me. I actually got the idea from reading your posts in the DI Northstar thread. I thought it might make for some good discussion.

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Fu$k that.

I think the V8 is just now reaching it's golden age.

DOD means the V8 will become more prominent

in years to come. Between the cheap feel & N.V.H.

of 4s and V6s I do not aspire ot own too many.

99.9% of my dream cars are either V8, I6, I8 or in

some cases two I6s or I8s joined at the crank. :wink:

What you describe is pretty much my worst nightmare. :puke:

I say GM needs a modern 215.... or perhaps even smaller

family of V8s. Mazda had the right idea with the MX3 GSV6,

except they need to make baby V8s instead of baby V6s.

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i agree. V6's have come a long way and for the 'average' consumer with 'normal' needs a V6 is good enough.

but for pure performance in larger cars you'll need a V8. and for that image conscious buyer, a 300C is diddly squat without the Hemi. for that reason alone the V8 will not die. volumes may decrese, but it will not die.

the Lexus strategy is an interesting one. it's success will depend on the longevity, technical advances and practicality of hybrid technology.

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DOD means the V8 will become more prominent

in years to come.

I'm not quite seeing a shift in interest simply due to D.O.D., considering it's not quite efficient enough to be considered an alternative to what can be from a more economical V6.

The issue isn't purely based on fuel economy anyway; rather, I see it's based more on the viability of having a more efficient package. It can be just as powerful as a V8, though lighter, and easier to design with a particular engine bay in mind.

I'm certainly not going to list positives for a V8 that deal with the sound at the tailpipes, or the roar off the line. None of that really has as much significance in the passenger car market. A V8 would likely be more of a marketing ploy for image than for practical use in anything else that a V6 can't accomplish itself.

Edited by ShadowDog

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Really, V8s aren't very common anyways. Other than the Corvette, SSR, GTO, V-Series cars, and trucks and SUVs, the only GM V8s I can think of are: GP GXP, Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, STS, DTS, XLR, and Lucerne. And the Impy SS, MC SS, and Lucerne didn't have V8s before MY2006.

None of the vehicles I listed sell in very high volume, so you could say the V8 is already phased out of passenger cars for the most part.

NONE of those sell in high volume? DTS is the #1 selling luxury vehicle, i wouldn't say that's small volume.

In the average car, maybe V6 will replace the V8, but as far as luxury and performance applications, and trucks. The V8 is far from it.

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In the average car, maybe V6 will replace the V8, but as far as luxury and performance applications, and trucks. The V8 is far from it.

Isn't that what evok pointed out, for the passenger car market particularly?

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IGM had already cancelled the V10 because they could do the same thing with the LSx V8 in the full sized utilities and pickups.  The V10 might have made headlines in the press and media but that would be about it.  How much longer until a V6 can do exactly what a V8 does as technology progresses further.

You're ignoring the fact the V10 was also canceled b/c of the MAJOR issues it had. The engine was not going to make financial sense, nor was the quality up to par with other V-10's (Audi, BMW).

As far as I know, GM's V-12 plan wasn't canceled, but rather sits on the back burner.

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I'm not quite seeing a shift in interest simply due to D.O.D., considering it's not quite efficient enough to be considered an alternative to what can be from a more economical V6.

The issue isn't purely based on fuel economy anyway; rather, I see it's based more on the viability of having a more efficient package.  It can be just as powerful as a V8, though lighter, and easier to design with a particular engine bay in mind.

I'm certainly not going to list positives for a V8 that deal with the sound at the tailpipes, or the roar off the line.  None of that really has as much significance in the passenger car market.  A V8 would likely be more of a marketing ploy for image than for practical use in anything else that a V6 can't accomplish itself.

I agree with everything except the first part. The Impala SS gets 18/28 while the less powerful (by 60HP) 3.9L gets 19/27... basically equal.

NONE of those sell in high volume? DTS is the #1 selling luxury vehicle, i wouldn't say that's small volume.

Well 1/3 of DTS are to fleets, and cutting the volume by 1/3 doesn't give you too much volume.

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I believe the HP wars are reaching their limits and peaks.  The V8 engine is slowly becoming archaic in the passenger vehicle market for that very reason.  Modern 4s and 6 have pushed vehicle performance to sports car territory of only a few years ago.

...

It is reaching the point where naturally aspirated V6s have 300+hp.  I am finding less and less of a point of the V8 beyond that applications I mentioned above.

Conversely... you can argue that technology is giving modern V8's the fuel efficiency ?and comparable weight? of current V6's. So does it come down to which technology, with respect to power of a V6 or efficiency of a V8, costs less? In which case... the cheaper will survive.

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Isn't that what evok pointed out, for the passenger car market particularly?

no, because the number of luxury and performance vehicles, along with the sheer number of trucks wouldn't make V8's a "novelty status in the industry".

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I agree with everything except the first part. The Impala SS gets 18/28 while the less powerful (by 60HP) 3.9L gets 19/27... basically equal.

Since they're basically equal, let's compare

a) engine cost

b) how the engine performs (the V6 as smooth as the V8)

C) torque curves

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You're ignoring the fact the V10 was also canceled b/c of the MAJOR issues it had. The engine was not going to make financial sense, nor was the quality up to par with other V-10's (Audi, BMW).

As far as I know, GM's V-12 plan wasn't canceled, but rather sits on the back burner.

There is no ignoring the fact that OEMs can do more with less.

There is a limit to what the public demands and needs for HP and torque.

The HP race will end sooner or later.

As someone pointed out above - vehicles will need to be designed into more effecient packages.

All but 5 years ago, who would have thought that mainstream faimly sedans could be optioned with 250+hp figures with a V6. Or that 300 hp would be becoming available in naturally aspirated V6s?

Even I4s are closing in on 200hp. That was Corvette territory not so long ago.

A good portion of the fleet is going to 60 in under 8 or even 7 seconds with these powertrains.

I put this question on the table because it has to end.

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In passenger cars, I'm not entirely sure what the fate of the V8 is.

They've only just recently come back and I can't see Dodge or Chrylser getting rid of theirs any time soon as the V8 is part of those cars' appeal. They were built around the muscle car image; they look like they were designed to have V8s from the start.

The Impala and Grand Prix on the other hand do not. Their designs can accommodate V8s but looking at them you don't get the sense that they were meant to have them. The Grand Prix especially, went through generations without V8 power.

What I'm getting at is that the GM V8 passenger cars are special edition vehicles and there's no guarantee that they will always have V8 power. Something tells me the DCX cars are more likely to.

If a car was designed to around the idea of being a family car first and foremost (the aforementioned GMs) don't bet on the V8 being an integral part of the car's DNA. It's just a novelty.

I hope I didn't ramble on too much. :P

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There is a limit to what the public demands and needs for HP and torque.

The HP race will end sooner or later.

evok, if I may, I'd like to draw a parallel to the computer industry. in particular, hard drive sizes. Disk capacities have grown trememdously over the past couple of years, way more than what the average user needs. However, despite that fact, they'll still buy the computer with the 300gb hard drive because they somehow feel it's "better" than the one with the 80gb drive (all other specs being equal), which is still more space than they'll ever need for the life of the computer. Horsepower, like hard drive space, is a selling point, and more is better in the eyes of consumers.

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its pretty apparent that theyre getting more from less but i still dont trust those small motors churning out 200 hp for 4's and 300+ for the 6's

maybe thats just me but how much can you squeeze out of it. somethings gotta give at some point.

towing/hauling will never be without the power and torque of the v8. when it comes to passegers cars as you say, yeah, unless its the big benz' or cadillacs i dont think thats the first thing that comes to mind anymore.

its an interesting thought and tend to agree on some parts but really just dont see it happening. dont forget that many of these v6 engines can wind up bigger than the v8's so as far as packaging goes it can get dicey.

theres really no need for 12 cylinders but they exist still, is that the kind of status you see the 8 gravitating towards?

Edited by Mr.Krinkle

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its an interesting thought and tend to agree on some parts but really just dont see it happening.  dont forget that many of these v6 engines can wind up bigger than the v8's so as far as packaging goes it can get dicey. 

Real packaging is related to external dimensions.

theres really no need for 12 cylinders but they exist still,  is that the kind of status you see the 8 gravitating towards?

And yes but maybe not that drastic.

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evok, if I may, I'd like to draw a parallel to the computer industry. in particular, hard drive sizes. Disk capacities have grown trememdously over the past couple of years, way more than what the average user needs. However, despite that fact, they'll still buy the computer with the 300gb hard drive because they somehow feel it's "better" than the one with the 80gb drive (all other specs being equal), which is still more space than they'll ever need for the life of the computer. Horsepower, like hard drive space, is a selling point, and more is better in the eyes of consumers.

Actually I disagree with you analogy in the context of the automobile because of the amount of external factors that are involved in this industry.

I do agree in theory however nothing in this business is every "all things being equal".

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All but 5 years ago, who would have thought that mainstream faimly sedans could be optioned with 250+hp figures with a V6. Or that 300 hp would be becoming available in naturally aspirated V6s?

Uh...

1996 Olds LSS

1996 Pontiac Gran Prix

1996 Buick Regal GS

were all within 10HP of that.

I put this question on the table because it has to end.

The HP increase may level off, but I don't think we'll see another decline in HP like we did in the late 70's early 80's.

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I don't need a V8... or even a V6 in many cases. What was said supports that.

Actually it does not in the context of this thread.

Computers are not a regulated industry the same way the auto industry is.

Computer are not quantified by the amount of energy they use.

Computers do not kill people.

etc..

I think you get my point.

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Uh...

1996 Olds LSS

1996 Pontiac Gran Prix

1996 Buick Regal GS

were all within 10HP of that.

The HP increase may level off, but I don't think we'll see another decline in HP like we did in the late 70's early 80's.

I was thinking naturally aspirated.

And I agree, that I do not see a decrease in power rating unless - the middle east turns the tap off.

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