Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[David]

Solid figures are only through 2018 at this time, there are no set figures for 2019 due to the Pandemic. 7.84% might seem low to some of you but like everything, ICE auto's were once this way too back at the start of 1900's.

EV will replace ICE and we will then have cleaner air, quieter neighborhoods, less noise pollution.

[balthazar]

10 minutes ago, David said:

Solid figures are only through 2018 at this time, there are no set figures for 2019 due to the Pandemic. 7.84% might seem low to some of you but like everything, ICE auto's were once this way too back at the start of 1900's.

1. There was no pandemic in 2019.

2. Incorrect on your second statement: Internal Combustion-engined vehicles were never as low as 7% of all auto sales (gas + steam + electric) in the beginning of the industry.

[David]

Reports based on car sales reporting info shows EV sales up 3% for 2019, but Plug-in Hybrids were down 31% for 2019. Tesla controls the majority of the market with 8 out of every 10 EVs sold being a Tesla, Chevrolet being the second best selling model at 6.8% market share.

Sales reports show 16 different brands offering 30 different models in the US. The top 6 models control 94.4% of the EV/PHEV market. Of the top 3 best selling PHEV models, Prius Prime, Prius Hybrid and Honda Clarity PHEV. The Honda Clarity was the top seller in 2019, it replaced the #1 seller which was the Chevrolet Volt in 2018. Tesla Model 3 is the #1 seller in the US for 2019 and 2018. Tesla Model X was down 26% for 2019 and the Model S was down 45% for 2019. Chevrolet BOLT replaced Tesla Model S in the #3 spot meaning Tesla is no longer the the sole owner of the Podium for #1,2 & 3 in the US. Positive news for the VW EV line up as it grows in popularity and sales showing that their ID line of dedicated EVs could do very well. The Audi E-tron has already reach #6 in the nation for sales doubling what the Jaguar i-Pace is selling in 2019.

https://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-analysis-2019-ev-phev/#:~:text=Sales of EVs and PHEVs in the US,US car market%2C up from 1.3% in 2018.

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

1. There was no pandemic in 2019.

2. Incorrect on your second statement: Internal Combustion-engined vehicles were never as low as 7% of all auto sales (gas + steam + electric) in the beginning of the industry.

Hello McFly, Pandemic is now when all the data is finally in. So processing all the data has been slow. The best that can be done is to look at the sales registration data, but more info will come in as people get back to work.

Your RIGHT, ICE started off at ZERO Percent slowly replacing the Horse and Buggy.

[oldshurst442]

https://www.cncda.org/wp-content/uploads/Cal-Covering-4Q-19.pdf

Hybrid/electric vehicle market share in 2019: 13.2 percent

BEVs have a 7.7% market share...but electrics as a whole...have a 13.2% market share.    PLUG-IN hybrids...need to be plugged in...  

Luxury SUVs in California have an 11% market share.   

Luxury and Sports cars in California have that same 11%.

Electrics, ALL of them...have high price tags in the LUXURY side of pricing.  

Any which way you slice it, the point of view I share regarding EV market share in California being pretty high is more accurate than a point of view stating its just OK... 

And even if its "just OK",  EV sales, in California, are only going to go up.  

 

 

 

 

 

[balthazar]

I do expect EV sales to rise; without question.  But as of last year's figures, the market share is very very low, still.

Your RIGHT, ICE started off at ZERO Percent slowly replacing the Horse and Buggy.

Automobiles were not a replacement for the horse. It was a brand new product segment. People didn't trade in a horse on a new car, and they didn't plow their fields with a new car. The TRACTOR replaced the horse. 😆

[balthazar]

Or look at it this way if you prefer to persist in your car>horse theory :

Horses (9.2 million vs. 273 million autos) hold 3.4% of the existing U.S. automobile market share.  😆 😆 😆 😆

Edited September 1, 2020 by balthazar

[balthazar]

One more way of looking at your silly example :
It took 150 years for the automobile to get to 96% of the market vs. horses... and some believe pure EVs will have 100% vs. IC in a mere 10 or 15 years / 30 years total. (STOP IT, I can't laugh anymore!)

[David]

29 minutes ago, balthazar said:

One more way of looking at your silly example :
It took 150 years for the automobile to get to 96% of the market vs. horses... and some believe pure EVs will have 100% vs. IC in a mere 10 or 15 years / 30 years total. (STOP IT, I can't laugh anymore!)

Horses and buggy had hundreds of years compared to the ICE auto and now comes the era of EV. I suspect 50 years to completely replace ICE for the majority of the Human Population.

[David]

Reuters is reporting that the NHTSA requirement for Quiet auto to emite a sound up to 18.6 mph for EV/PHEV auto's has been pushed out by 6 months due to the Pandemic.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-autos-regulations/u-s-gives-automakers-at-least-six-more-months-to-meet-quiet-car-rules-idUSKBN25O2RR?il=0

Due to the crazy rapid stock price rise of Tesla and the stock split, Musk has become the 3rd richest man in the world. Musk is now worth $115 plus billion dollars passing up #3 richest man, Zuckerberg who is worth $110 plus billion.  Crazy part of this is Musk wealth grew $87.8 billion this year alone due to the stock price rise and split in 2020.

https://www.maxim.com/news/elon-musk-becomes-worlds-third-richest-man#:~:text=Elon Musk Surpasses Mark Zuckerberg to Become World's,tech mogul's net worth just jumped to a

Musk and Zuckerberg has signed the giving pledge joining Bill & Melinda Gates as well as Warren Buffet in committing the majority of their wealth to the Philanthropy fund to help the world. This makes the foundation one of the richest in the world, richer than most countries.

https://givingpledge.org/

[David]

In 2012 Jeep showed off the Might FC Concept. A Jeep built off the Base cab of a Rubicon truck into a might cab over design was a project built of fun and V6 power that proved itself, but due to crash regulations, it was thought it would never see the light of day.

https://moparinsiders.com/inside-design-the-2012-jeep-mighty-fc-concept/

Yet now it is being looked at again as a far roomier version could be made as an EV model.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/modern-jeep-forward-control-looks-like-the-perfect-electric-truck-148092.html

Verious folks are working to inspire Jeep to make this as an EV.

 

 

 

[David]

@A Horse With No Name emailed me this video. THANK YOU

Have to say, excited to watch the TV show about the Journey from South America back to North America. 0 to 80 mph in 4 seconds, Eat that Tesla as we have seen nothing of their truck. Very excited to see these get into production and delivered next year in Q1 2021.

More EXCITEMENT as the EV auto Company Arrival has delivered their 1st electric delivery van Prototype to UPS in the UK. Have to say the future of quiet delivery vans is EXCITING!!!

Testing of a fleet of 20 of these vans will start this fall in the UK.

 

[A Horse With No Name]

2 minutes ago, David said:

@A Horse With No Name emailed me this video. THANK YOU

Have to say, excited to watch the TV show about the Journey from South America back to North America. 0 to 80 mph in 4 seconds, Eat that Tesla as we have seen nothing of their truck. Very excited to see these get into production and delivered next year in Q1 2021.

More EXCITEMENT as the EV auto Company Arrival has delivered their 1st electric delivery van to UPS in the UK. Have to say the future of quiet delivery vans is EXCITING!!!

 

The future is electric.  Seriously. 

For those that don't like the thought of an electgric future, a song to make you feel better. 

 

 

[David]

Watching the Video again, I just picked up that UPS has signed an order for 10,000 of the Arrival van for the European market.  Death to the noise and smell of Diesel delivery vans.

Love that they say there is NO FOCUS on autonomous delivery van as a person will need to be there to deliver the actual package, so right now is moving to a proper quiet delivery van for inner city to suburban use.

[balthazar]

7 hours ago, David said:

I suspect 50 years to completely replace ICE for the majority of the Human Population.

Is that from today forward, that '50 years'... or are you counting from the 'new' start of 1997 (which would mean by 2054).  I'm working on a wager proposal and I need your terms defined.

[David]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Is that from today forward, that '50 years'... or are you counting from the 'new' start of 1997 (which would mean by 2054).  I'm working on a wager proposal and I need your terms defined.

I think 50 years from this year, so by 2070 there will be no more ICE new auto sales, only EV and PHEV maybe. ICE in older auto's will be around, but rare as a change will happen with gas stations to charging stations.

[balthazar]

OK, so it's unlikely we can wager on this one (despite me being completely willing).
There are approx 275 million IC vehicles in the U.S. alone- will take forever to make them 'rare'.

Unfortunately, there are too many living scenarios to allow every motorist to own an (expensive) EV. Those scenarios simply aren't going to be able to change. There's always going to be a market for IC vehicles, and as more of the market, any negative contributions of IC vehicles becomes, by consequence, a fraction of today. Their costs may actually decline as luxury & premium brands switch over, leaving lower end market (a non-business case for EVs) to ICs. Plus, the theoretical future slump in gas/diesel demand should have those costs likewise plummeting, so for at least a while; the lower end buyers would see significant fuel savings. (Eventually, production cuts will follow product demand, which means alternative petroleum end products, also extensively used in EVs, will see price increases.

[oldshurst442]

26 minutes ago, David said:

I think 50 years from this year, so by 2070 there will be no more ICE new auto sales, only EV and PHEV maybe. ICE in older auto's will be around, but rare as a change will happen with gas stations to charging stations.

By 2070... 

You could also say that many, many...many city centers would be banning  new or old, ICE in their territory.  

I know that Montreal has kicked that idea around about banning ICE in the downtown area in the near future. 

THAT concept is already in effect with diesel in many parts of China and Europe. 

Many forget that this EV thing is NOT just a market acceptance thing.  The market might not accept it, but what choice does the market have when the very vocal minority is pressuring governments to kill ICE.    

And on top of that very vocal minority, the ones that delve into EVs, most of those folks SWEAR to NEVER return to ICE.  And that very vocal minority, is very much so PERSUADING ICE folk to DITCH ICE.  How do you think Tesla gets all those  sales?    (that minority WILL eventually get to be a majority.)   This new generation of kids, the ones that are starting to drive NOW and the younger gen...dont see a future with ICE...  

 

Tesla doesnt do much advertising.  Their MARKETING is basically THE product (vehicle AND charging infrastructure)  AND WORD OF MOUTH...

  Dont laugh...

I have heard rumours that NYC and LA also have been pondering the idea of banning ICE in their centers sometime in the future...  and if THAT happens...it dont matter how many ICE vehicles there are in circulation...   GM and others are HAPPILY readying the buying public to buy EVs from a future like that...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by oldshurst442

[David]

@oldshurst442 Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA and San Diego are all looking at 2030 dates for banning ICE auto's from inner city use. 

This is for Noise as well as Health reasons.

On top of this, with 27 states now having signed onto the California CARB agreement. If California does this for inner city driving, I suspect it would get pushed out via the CARB agreement meaning 27 states would all follow that in banning ICE auto's from the inner city.

On top of the push by delivery companies to go EV to reduce maintenance costs and fuel costs, I think we will hit a tipping point in the next 3 to 5 years and will see the flip.

I also suspect that noisy motorcycles will get banned at one point too from the inner city. Already, multiple west coast cities including Seattle have banned the open header Harley Davidson bikes due to the noise they create bouncing off the city buildings.

[oldshurst442]

7 hours ago, David said:

Horses and buggy had hundreds of years

Minor detail...but horses and buggies had THOUSANDS of years...

And with a blink of an eye, the industrial revolution of which the automobile is very much part of...CHANGED the way humans live.  And yes...the automobile, tractor, 18 wheeler, delivery panel van, limousine VIP transport, assault tank,  replaced the horse and buggy. 

The tractor  is PART of the industrial revolution. The tractor HAS an internal combustion engine and is PART of the automobile revolution.

The Model T was also a tractor BTW...and Balthy...you are the one to teach me that.  So...

 

[David]

@oldshurst442 You got my curiosity and in looking, WOW, lots of concepts but also plenty of actual ELECTRIC TRACTORS for sale. Seems the push is to also clean up the air and reduce noise pollution and maintenance cost by going electric in the Tractor market too.

https://www.kubota.com/news/2020/20200115_2.html

https://www.deere.com/en/engines-and-drivetrain/vehicle-electrification/

https://www.farmshow.com/view_articles.php?a_id=139 John Deere shows off their electric Tractor for commercial use.

https://www.futurefarming.com/Machinery/Articles/2018/1/This-is-the-Fendt-e100-Vario-electric-tractor-4419WP/

https://www.solectrac.com/

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

You could also say that many, many...many city centers would be banning  new or old, ICE in their territory.

In many... perhaps a majority of instances, inner cities house lower and low income families.

SCENARIO ::
•• Imagine you're a single mother of 2, living in half a duplex in an urban center. While your kids are in school, you have a short workday waiting tables at a diner. Your ratty 19-yr old Corolla takes you there, drops/picks up the kids from school, takes them to the doctor's, etc. You struggle, but you're keeping your head above water. The Corolla parks at the curb, because you have no driveway.

One afternoon you overhear 2 city planners at lunch @ the diner, talking about banning all gas cars/truck in the city in 5 years, because "it'll be good for the environment".

You try not to panic. You've read an article; electric cars should be charged every night. You have no driveway, you don't even have an extension cord... not that that wouldn't likely be 1. tripped over by a pedestrian, or 2. stolen within a week. The diner has no facility to plug in. Plus, most electric cars are hella expensive. Cheapest nisson leaf on cargurus is $4 grand, (when your beater Corolla cost you only $1K and it now worth scrap value) - where are you supposed to come up with 4 grand??

Maybe the city planners will leave one of those newsworthy mega tips. Can you whip up some fake tears and a sniffle? After all; they arrived for lunch in a brand new city-bought Tesla...  ••

[oldshurst442]

^^^  

By THAT time,  charging EVs would most probably be wireless...  

By THAT time, charging EVs would most probably done on the fly while driving.   

By THAT time, the poor single mother wont be driving a ratty 19 year old Corolla, she will be driving a ratty 19 year old Prius.  

A technicality as a Prius is an ICE hybrid. Probably banned because it does roll with ICE.  OK...she will be driving a ratty 19 year old Chevy Bolt.  More realistically, she will probably be driving a 19 year old ratty Cadillac Lyriq as we all know, poor people in North America still want to look good so she would rather be seen in a Cadillac rather than a Chevy...  (making your scenario more real...)   Besides, depreciation after a decade gets ALL cars. ALL cars are dirt cheap...and in THIS scenario, we are talking about 2 decades of rattiness... 

City planners and guvment officials NEVER plan ANYTHING out logically. We all know that...  But what does THAT have to do with banning ICE vehicles in the very near future.

You do know that is happening, right?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[balthazar]

Oh sure; there's plenty of talk. By those same illogical planners.

But "it's going to happen" (theoretically) is no where near "it is happening".

[oldshurst442]

But it is...

Its in proposal phase now.  Those illogical planners are trying hard to find a (il)logical solution. 

Hey, I am not down with that idea myself, the banning ICE part, but I know its gonna happen. And yes, it will be very hard to conform to it.  But we as citizens of the planet wont have a choice. And THAT is the bottom line. 

I aint against EVs though, so Im not gonna be pissed about it too much, nor will I be hindered by an ICE ban.  

I get your argument. And I will feel something for those that wont be able to comply right away. But such as life.  

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

verb tenses.

[oldshurst442]

Because its a fact. It IS happening. No mattter how much kicking, screaming and denying we do. Its inevitable. 

[David]

@balthazar That woman you speak of, maybe a sister, or niece, could very well be in an auto powered by an NDB Battery and will never have to worry about recharging in her life time.

Per my quote on page 50

Yet with this is others that believe NDB Battery tech is the future. This would be a safe recycled nuclear waste into a self charging battery pack. This would end up with a true lifetime battery pack that would outlast any other.

Quote the tech from their web site:

Diamond Nuclear Voltaic (DNV): NDB is one of the earliest adopters and developers of this technology backed up by recent publications. Typically, DNV as a device is a combination of a semiconductor , metal and ceramic which has two contact surfaces to facilitate charge collection. Several single units are attached together to create a stack arrangement, which is fabricated to create a positive and negative contact surface similar to a common battery system. Every layer of the DNV stack consists of a high energy output source. This kind of arrangement improves the overall efficiency of the system and provides a multi layer safety shield for the product.

Rapid conversion from radiation to electricity: All radioisotopes are known to produce high amounts of heat. The strategic placement of the source between the DNV units facilitates inelastic scattering originated due to the presence of single crystalline diamond (SCD) in the DNV unit. This design prevents self-absorption of heat by the radioisotope and enables rapid conversion to usable electricity.

Thin film structure: The thin-film profile exhibited by NDB allows radiation absorption in the single crystalline diamond with minimal self adsorption. Due to its flexible design structure, this technology can take any shape and form in accordance to the application. This makes NDB’s battery system market friendly.

Nuclear recycle process: Utilization of radioactive waste as otherwise is a subject not many have looked into. At NDB, we aim to  reuse the nuclear fuel by reprocessing and recycling to enable sustainability and promote a clean energy source in a safe and secure environment.

Safety

One of the key innovations of NDB is its highly sophisticated safety feature covering the three most important aspects of thermal, mechanical and radiation safety. The battery system uses several concepts to ensure maximum safety of the device:

Diamond encapsulator:  The DNV stacks along with the source are coated with a layer of poly-crystalline diamond, which is known for being the most thermally conductive material also has the ability to contain the radiation within the device and is the hardest material, twelve times tougher than stainless steel. This makes our product extremely tough and tamperproof.

Built in thermal vents: The high energy source present in the battery system produces heat during operation. This leads to thermal conduction in the system. Thermal vents in the system help conduct this process with respect to the outer surface of the diamond to keep the interiors at an optimum level.

Boron-doped SCD: Trying to utilise every aspect in the system, NDB in addition to alpha and beta also incorporates usage of neutron radiations by utilising a boron-10 doping. Doping helps to convert the extra neutron into alpha ray.

Lock-in System: Using a nuclear power source for a battery system brings up the question of nuclear proliferation due to production of fissionable isotopes such as Pu- 238 and U-232. To tackle this issue, NDB uses an ion implantation mechanism called “lock-in system” which prevents usage other than power generation. This increases the usability, by meeting consumer safety requirements

https://ndb.technology

[balthazar]

Whose sister or niece??  🤔

Tons of future dreams out there, but my "scenario" stated an IC ban in 5 years (because it's all conversation at this point). There's no diamond x-1000 battery car this sister/niece can afford because she's near poverty in the inner city. That's why she's in a urban area duplex with on-street parking. That's brand new vapor-tech not on the market, and if it were, it'd command the segment premium because of it's advances vs. the rest.
 

You did get the point I made, right? 'Poor' cannot afford new battery electrics, and a great many have no place to charge them. All these tech pipe dreams / lab experiments have to be proven & in production before various municipalities cut the mobility legs out from under the under class. And most of them are locked into a poverty cycle they will never get out of, so stating 'maybe in 20 years they'll be in a better spot / a Tesla'. This is real world stuff.

The wide-EV-eyed don't seem to care about the class of folk that can't hope to afford all this Jetson-age tech. 'Fuck 'em' seems to be the message; 'you'll have to figure it out when there is no more cheap transportation because we made it better for you / you're welcome'.

 

Here's an idea- instead of rushing to "ban" things, get more OEMs to build more AFFORDABLE EV products, and let the market speak.

Edited September 2, 2020 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

Too soon for this to happen in 5 years.  But it IS happening.  Ill repeat, no matter how much head banging, crying, denying we do in 2020, ICE bans in city centers is a real thing.  By the end of this decade, the planning and execution of city center ICE bans will be announced for the next decade. (2030s)  

The poor cant afford food....and ESPECIALLY in the US...ya'll say phoqu'em anyway.  So you are worried about the poor affording EVs?  

The poor have had NO compassion in the US since at least from the late 1960s...and every decade since then, the poor have gotten the shaft worse and worse and you worry what the poor will be driving? 

The poor have gotten shyttier jobs with even shyttier paychecks decade after decade and now with minimum wage wars where the political divide got to decide who was the President last elections (MAGA and Bring back the jobs and all that, to which the Donald did nothing to help BUT to divide even more, and especially its allies, Canada) and you are worried about single mothers driving ratty old Corollas in an EV world? 

Where even some of the poor in the US dont want minimum wage jobs and would rather sit home and worse, when some US folk dont want minimum wage to go up  as THAT hurts corporation profits?  When most in the US do NOT want unions... Unions PROTECT the worker.  But most US folk see  unions  as a bad thing for...corporations?  Corporations that WILLINGLY left the US for slave work in other countries?  

Where most poor, but not so poor, would rather buy take-out food, on a CREDIT card, get it delivered by UBER (all unnecessary fees and expenses) than to live life a tad more restrained?  (hence my ratty 19 year old Cadillac Lyriq comment comes in, because THAT is a very real thing in the US and Canada) 

Its NOT the wide-eyed EV folk that wish ill on the poor.   The wide eyed EV folk want a better planet to live in.  Maybe a tad naive on their part, but your argument is NOT with the wide-eyed EV folk here.  Its the shytty politicians and corporate vultures that have waged a war on the poor.  Since a loooong time ago. 

The politicians that want ICE bans from city centers maybe gullible and might miss some critical details here and there, please dont make this into a poor people pity fest and make it seem like the EV revolution is all evil-like.  The evil-like aura we have and the wage on poor people is the corporate way of life we choose to live by and have been doing so since the 1960s... and maybe the EV thing is a part of it, but its part of the cycle.  A cycle that was put in place a long time ago.   Greedy capitalism...  And one could argue that this EV eutopia is nothing but a greedy capitalism thing, but no different than the dirty oil greed... 

We could scream and shout.  ICE WILL be banned and automakers from NOW, are complying with that future...  Its really not up to the consumer.  The fate for ICE has been sealed.  Whether you like it or not.  

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

I'm not sure we're having the same conversation; you're simply stating city planner talking points.

What are these people (and untold millions of others like them) going to do? Tone-deaf politicians are going to take away their affordable transportation with 'bans'.

Edited September 2, 2020 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Here's an idea- instead of rushing to "ban" things, get more OEMs to build more AFFORDABLE EV products, and let the market speak.

You know that is not how it works...

New tech is expensive. 

Old world greedy oil will NEVER allow for fair market practice.  (you see it in Michigan where Tesla is BANNED from selling its cars sans dealership...)  (Ironic we are talking about bans...)  

 

 

[balthazar]

That's an entirely other issue.

[oldshurst442]

18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I'm not sure we're having the same conversation; you're simply stating city planner talking points.

What are these people (and untold millions of others like them) going to do? Tone-deaf politicians are going to take away their affordable transportation with 'bans'.

 

problem is...these folk have NO cars anyway...I dont see any in these pics. Do you? 

I dont see Chevys in the driveway. And if there is a Chevy in a driveway..its a POS car.  Old. Rundown. 

You mean to tell me that Electric cars sold today wont be old, cheap, rundown 20 years from now?  

The way the poor person gets by with a rundown ICE shytbox, with bald tires on 4 different rims, water in the radiator, duct tape as windows  and pimping for gas money will be doing the same with an old rundown  EV shytbox  down the road... 

There are plenty of used Teslas now on the market.  10 years from now, they will be the equivalent of what Axel Foley drove in the first Beverly Hills Cop.

1969 Chevy in 1984

Or the Ecto-One BEFORE it was the Ecto-ONE

1959 caddy in 1984

Or Uncle Bucks Mercury

mid 1970s in 1988? 

15 year old jalopies. The Caddy 25 years old...

A Tesla Model 3 in 2020 will be 15 years old in 2035 where a very possible ban on ICE could take place in Detroit, or NYC or wherever the Unlce Buck movie took place... 

Edited September 2, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

You don't see cars in the pic's driveways BECAUSE THERE ARE NO DRIVEWAYS.
 :facepalm:

Yes, people living in those types of housing absolutely have cars- I know the city those were taken in well. No, not everyone, but those that have no driveways do this weird thing; they park in the street.

Now... take away their gas-fueled car, and tell them they have to buy an electric and BTW; they're going to need to charge it at home.

 

[ocnblu]

7 hours ago, David said:

safe recycled nuclear waste

lol

[oldshurst442]

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

You don't see cars in the pic's driveways BECAUSE THERE ARE NO DRIVEWAYS.
 

Yes, people living in those types of housing absolutely have cars- I know the city those were taken in well. No, not everyone, but those that have no driveways do this weird thing; they park in the street.

Now... take away their gas-fueled car, and tell them they have to buy an electric and BTW; they're going to need to charge it at home.

 

Like I said...  By THAT time...WIRELESS charging will be a thing. 

But then again, I know some folks who have houses, no driveways, have cars...old cars. Jalopies.  

But...dont put full up to the rim when empty, and ONLY drive when absolutely necessary.  

PS:  Hydro-Quebec cuts the power to them in the summer, NOT the winter. Because too cold. Its inhumane. Because they dont pay their hydro bills 

I also know folk that DO have driveways, have not that old vehicles, but poor nonetheless, pay their bills, but their home is a disaster. No maintenance done either to their cars or their home.  And rough Quebec winters makes things old real fast...  (You know where Im going with this?)

But...MANDATORY EVs will somehow be worse for them?  

You are selling a scenario but I aint buying it...

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by oldshurst442

[A Horse With No Name]

 

 

[David]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

I'm not sure we're having the same conversation; you're simply stating city planner talking points.

What are these people (and untold millions of others like them) going to do? Tone-deaf politicians are going to take away their affordable transportation with 'bans'.

Cities have MASS TRANSIT. As such, Driving has ALWAYS been a Privilege EARNED, NOT A Right! Poor / Low income people like anyone else has to make decisions and if they are living and working in the cities, then Mass transit is a better way to go especially with City subsidized passes than owning an old auto money pit.

We all have choices to make and an auto much like a cell phone is not a right that everyone gets. There is no equality social system for all. As such, in your example of a low income / poor mother with kids, giving up her auto and taking the bus to work is a better way on an income subsidized buss pass in the city than owning an auto with those added costs of insurance, gas, oil, coolant, wipers, bulbs, repairs, etc.

[ccap41]

Here's an example I think @balthazar is talking about. This is a neighborhood south of STL. It isn't super low income but it isn't filled with people making great money either. It's all street parking.

Where are they going to charge? Where will these wireless chargers come from? Does the township plan to bury chargers all along the streets? 

Edited September 2, 2020 by ccap41

[David]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Here's an example I think @balthazar is talking about. This is a neighborhood south of STL. It isn't super low income but it isn't filled with people making great money either. It's all street parking.

Where are they going to charge? Where will these wireless chargers come from? Does the township plan to bury chargers all along the streets? 

Just like these cities have decided to build bike lanes, the city is going to have to make decisions about how they support the next era of auto's.

Both you and @balthazar bring up a valid point that for low middle income neighborhoods where politicians have made poor choices about building homes for tax dollars with no parking, they are going to have to decide how they continue to support the tax base of Low Middle Income to poor.

No one here knows what the future will hold, but we can look at history to know that technology will continue to move forward and change is inevitable. 

Welcome to the 21st century of change.

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, David said:

Just like these cities have decided to build bike lanes, the city is going to have to make decisions about how they support the next era of auto's.

Both you and @balthazar bring up a valid point that for low middle income neighborhoods where politicians have made poor choices about building homes for tax dollars with no parking, they are going to have to decide how they continue to support the tax base of Low Middle Income to poor.

No one here knows what the future will hold, but we can look at history to know that technology will continue to move forward and change is inevitable. 

Welcome to the 21st century of change.

I highly doubt these homes were built for tax dollars. They're all porbably 100-75 years old brick buildings. SOME of them are extremely nice and completely renovated..but they still have street parking. 

Okay... probably more like 50-75 years old.. 

[ccap41]

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

 

Where are they going to charge? Where will these wireless chargers come from? Does the township plan to bury chargers all along the streets? 

 

There are gas stations RIGHT NOW that have chargers.  Gas stations will convert to being charging stations. This is happening at a faster pace in Canada, Northern Europe with Nordic countries such as Norway than in the States. These folk will power up exactly how they gas up if wireless tech is not up and runnin’ or if the city planners abandon them.  Charging times WILL come down to that of gassing up. 

The argument at play is being presented as if there are no solutions.  

The word on the street is that we as humans want to try to colonize Mars and a small problem like charging a transportation pod is an unsurmountable feat?  (For the poor...like we ever gave a shyte about the poor. Especially visible minorities and single mommies)

LOL

Edited September 2, 2020 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

On 8/27/2020 at 12:47 PM, balthazar said:

Sta-Bil would have you believe you need a stabilizer if a vehicle is going to sit for over 30 days. Imagine how much product they could sell if everyone followed that recommendation. You could chalk that up to increased maintenance, if you buy the narrative.

I've most commonly seen 6 months as a more realistic time span.

 

On 8/27/2020 at 1:36 PM, ykX said:

Most articles say 3 to 6 month.  If gas has ethanol, than even sooner.

Funny this came up.  @Paolino was asking me yesterday about it.  He hasn't put gas in the car since March and the tank is full.  I told him he needs to go burn through that tank soon and get a fresh tank in there. 

[Robert Hall]

 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Those look like some older neighborhoods in Cleveland..

Edited September 2, 2020 by Robert Hall

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Here's an example I think @balthazar is talking about. This is a neighborhood south of STL. It isn't super low income but it isn't filled with people making great money either. It's all street parking.

Where are they going to charge? Where will these wireless chargers come from? Does the township plan to bury chargers all along the streets? 

At a local rapid charger that is in the parking lot of the Kroger/Walmart/Target/Best Buy/Mini-mall they're shopping at.  Once range hits 300 to 350 miles on a charge, just charge it once a week when you're doing your grocery shopping. 

At my old job, I could charge while I was at work.  I have a friend who has a Volt who lives in a similar place as that picture... he parks at the mall next to his job and charges it up.  When he sees on his phone that the car is full, he walks over and moves it into his lot (He's a service manager for a Lexus dealer).  He basically never uses gas except when the regenerator comes on to burn off the old stuff. 

Once you get over the "OMG I could NEVER do that!!!!" F.U.D., most people are pretty resourceful and can figure out how to make it work. As more charging stations become available, more solutions will present themselves to people.  A Telsa can recharge 200 miles in 30 minutes right now.  Future battery improvements will reduce that time.

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, David said:

Cities have MASS TRANSIT.

Not all of them and not all of them extensive. I don't ride buses, but I have a hard time picturing a mother, 2 kids and weeks worth of groceries going by bus. Plus, she already has a car, remember?

Teslas might as well be Rolls Royces to the low income tier. Unobtanium.
And a lot of inner urban areas rely on small local groceries rather than chains, chain supermarkets don't like to move into inner city areas (and don't). 

One customer of mine runs a fish market, and there's a dollar store and a African market to either side. I've worked for the landlord on many various parts of the building, and he's insanely, near criminally cheap. I really feel sorry for the tenants living upstairs over the stores- the conditions are not nice.
There's a small parking lot behind the building, but there's no way in hell he'd remotely consider putting chargers in for them. Maybe if they cost $25 to buy & install. Maybe. LOT of scenarios just like that, all over the country.

Edited September 2, 2020 by balthazar

[ccap41]

30 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

At a local rapid charger that is in the parking lot of the Kroger/Walmart/Target/Best Buy/Mini-mall they're shopping at.  Once range hits 300 to 350 miles on a charge, just charge it once a week when you're doing your grocery shopping. 

At my old job, I could charge while I was at work.  I have a friend who has a Volt who lives in a similar place as that picture... he parks at the mall next to his job and charges it up.  When he sees on his phone that the car is full, he walks over and moves it into his lot (He's a service manager for a Lexus dealer).  He basically never uses gas except when the regenerator comes on to burn off the old stuff. 

Once you get over the "OMG I could NEVER do that!!!!" F.U.D., most people are pretty resourceful and can figure out how to make it work. As more charging stations become available, more solutions will present themselves to people.  A Telsa can recharge 200 miles in 30 minutes right now.  Future battery improvements will reduce that time.

Those would suffice and they'll need to expand like none other if you're going to have thousands of people unable to charge from home, like everybody strongly advocating the move to EVs. 

The super fast charging is what degrades batteries the quickest. They should only really be used when absolutely needed. 

[Drew Dowdell]

52 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Those would suffice and they'll need to expand like none other if you're going to have thousands of people unable to charge from home, like everybody strongly advocating the move to EVs. 

The super fast charging is what degrades batteries the quickest. They should only really be used when absolutely needed. 

What I described is what you would do if you were buying an EV tomorrow and lived in a situation where you couldn't charge at home.

What I see happening in the mid-term future is that chargers at stores become substantially more common as new places are built or existing facilities are renovated.  It will eventually become a revenue stream for them. 

Our local grocery chain (and others nationally) has spent million and millions putting gas stations in their parking lots and tying gas discounts to grocery purchases.  I can absolutely see that same grocery chain doing the same thing with EV charging in their lots.

But also, as charging gets more ubiquitous, people will finally learn that you don't need a full charge every single time. The mind set of "I have to fill up" will change to "oh, I'll just charge for 20 minutes while I'm in this store and then when I go to the doctor tomorrow I can charge there too".  Even if you only charge at a rate of 100 miles per 30 minutes, that's enough for a couple days of errands. 

The fueling of EVs requires a complete shift in mentality.  Without that shift in mindset, of course EV's "won't work" if one keeps thinking in old ways.

[David]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Those would suffice and they'll need to expand like none other if you're going to have thousands of people unable to charge from home, like everybody strongly advocating the move to EVs. 

The super fast charging is what degrades batteries the quickest. They should only really be used when absolutely needed. 

Most new Solid State Battery design takes into account quick charge and does not have the degrade that Li Ion batteries have.

Fred Meyers here in the PNW have quick chargers and you can do with them like you can with gas. Discount charging, but in this case with the discount you get charging for free. Makes a solid reason to do your home / grocery shopping at Fred Meyers. Tesla Charging stations are also installed in the lots. So they all shop there while their auto gets charged. Always busy.