Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[surreal1272]

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Right, they sell high trim levels of existing trucks.  But even those are probably like a 10-20% take rate or so compared to how many Ford XLT, or Chevy LS/LT level trucks they sell.   And what you don't see is Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus pick ups and I guess Ram's luxury truck would be Alfa Romeo or Maserati.   There must not be a market for luxury brand trucks because none of them are doing it.  

Care to cite ANY of this? Top level trim pick ups are luxury and they cant keep them on the lots, like the F-150 Platinum. Point here is that the domestics were already producing luxury pick ups and will continue to do so, and quite well at that.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

😆 You’re WA-AAAAAAY OFF.

At GMC, EIGHTY PERCENT (80%) of the HD trucks are either the AT4 or Denali. One lot I walked this spring had a Sierra 3500HD Denali turbo diesel stickering at $83K.

But AT4 isn't a luxury version, and GM also launched the AT4 and Denali first, before the other trims.  I read 50% of 2500's are Denali in the same story, and 50% of overall Sierra's are AT4 or Denali.  So maybe like 30% Denali on the overall, with 20% overall AT4.  But Chevy isn't doing 30-50% High Country, Ford isn't doing 30% King Ranch edition.

Although I have said since the GM bankruptcy, that GMC should be one of 2 things, either a fleet/work truck brand, or a Denali only type brand.  They are too similar to Chevy right now.

Just using the Sierra as an example, it starts at $30,100, but there is some package discount and GMC.com shows me $29,795 for a base model.  The SLT starts at $47,500, and AT4 starts at $54,700 and Denali starts at $55,800.  I think the Sierra (and all GMC's) should start at SLT as the base model, then have either an AT4 off road version or a Denali luxury version.  Wipe out all those base and SLE trims.  That would put them above Chevy, but still doesn't make them a full on luxury line.  And a luxury brand truck like say a Lexus or Cadillac, would be nicer than a Denali, and I don't see a $100k Lexus Tundra or Cadillac Silverria selling.

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Care to cite ANY of this? Top level trim pick ups are luxury and they cant keep them on the lots, like the F-150 Platinum. Point here is that the domestics were already producing luxury pick ups and will continue to do so, and quite well at that.

But a Lincoln pick up, in base trim,  would have to be nicer and more luxurious than an F150 Platinum or King Ranch.  So we are talking $75k or so for a V6 1500 truck before options, and running it to 100k, basically Navigator pricing.  If there was a market for that, Ford would be doing it.

[David]

@smk4565 I really like that this Dealership actually lists out the trim levels and what is selling and the top is Denali then AT4 which is the bulk of their sales and clearly Luxury Level pricing which while Mercedes has cars priced this way, where are the Trucks?

All Trims on GMC 1500 Trucks Explained - Eagle Ridge GM

Yes this story is a couple years old from 2019, but the GMC rep states 40% of GMC Truck Sales are the SLT trim with Denali making up 30% and the rest in base/SLE trim. Yet as he states with new Elevation and other trims coming on this could change. We have now seen that the other trim was AT4 that is here now and Denali / AT4 make up the bulk of sales.

This Is The Most Popular Trim Level Of GMC Sierra | GM Authority

Based on just GMC sales numbers and ATP, I do not see the Luxury market cooling for GM in full Size trucks.

GMC Sierra Sales Figures | GCBC (goodcarbadcar.net)

[smk4565]

28 minutes ago, David said:

@smk4565 I really like that this Dealership actually lists out the trim levels and what is selling and the top is Denali then AT4 which is the bulk of their sales and clearly Luxury Level pricing which while Mercedes has cars priced this way, where are the Trucks?

All Trims on GMC 1500 Trucks Explained - Eagle Ridge GM

Yes this story is a couple years old from 2019, but the GMC rep states 40% of GMC Truck Sales are the SLT trim with Denali making up 30% and the rest in base/SLE trim. Yet as he states with new Elevation and other trims coming on this could change. We have now seen that the other trim was AT4 that is here now and Denali / AT4 make up the bulk of sales.

This Is The Most Popular Trim Level Of GMC Sierra | GM Authority

Based on just GMC sales numbers and ATP, I do not see the Luxury market cooling for GM in full Size trucks.

GMC Sierra Sales Figures | GCBC (goodcarbadcar.net)

I am not disputing that people pay $60-70k for some of these pick up trucks ($80k on some of the heavy duties), and then spend even more on after market stuff for them.  And as I have said for 10 years, I think GMC should make the SLT trim the standard on every model, and Denali as the step up to get away from the Chevy overlap.   This would wipe out 30% of GMC sales, which would piss off GMC dealers, but GM can still sell those people Chevorlets, so GM still gets the money anyway.

What I am saying is a luxury brand truck won't work, otherwise these car companies would be doing it.  

[riviera74]

What features and/or amenities separate a GMC Yukon Denali from a Cadillac Escalade as of right now?  Essentially, what is the justification of the Escalade over a Yukon Denali?

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

But AT4 isn't a luxury version

Its as luxury as anything ever that Mercedes peddles and has peddled  here in North America that is and was an econobox in Europe and passes that off here as luxury...

47 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I am not disputing that people pay $60-70k for some of these pick up trucks

And Im not disputing the fact that people here in North America pay luxury money for Mercedes cars...

But I AM privy to what Mercedes peddles in Europe and what Mercedes peddles in North America.  And yes, Mercedes has gone upscale in Europe too.  But Mercedes was more econobox in Europe up until the 1990s... As where in North America, it had a more luxury image.   NOT necessarily selling more luxurious cars.  Their image was more luxurious. Their luxury was lackluster...

Mercedes has done the opposite here in North America the last 20 years as compared to what they were doing in Europe.  They have moved DOWN market in North America while they have moved UPMARKET in Europe...

But YOU and American folk like you will never admit to that. You and folk like you want to dismiss this.

Its a headscratcher to me...when a car like this is sold in America as an "entry level" luxury car 

and is on par with fit and finish and quality and "luxury" as THIS car.

yet we scoff at the Pontiac... 

And this car...while more powerful versions of this one being sold in North America...

 In Europe...really no better than this car....   Actually worse...

While in North America...the Olds version got no respect by folk like you...let alone the Pontiac and Chevy platform mates...

 

 

And there is NO rebuttal to be made... 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

21 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

What features and/or amenities separate a GMC Yukon Denali from a Cadillac Escalade as of right now?  Essentially, what is the justification of the Escalade over a Yukon Denali?

The Cadillac image alone should make it worth more than a GMC, although the Cadillac image isn't what it should be.  GM needs to work on that part, I think the whole Cadillac brand needs to push more upmarket but that is another issue.  

The Escalade has Super Cruise and the bigger screen with some more tech, better stereo than the Denali or High Country Tahoe.   The materials and trim are better in an Escalade (more so on the higher trims) than a Yukon Denali according to Motor Trend, and they should be better if it's a Cadillac.  The Escalade in base trim though has leatherette seats, you have to go up a level to get real leather which is standard in the Yukon Denali, but skip the base Escalade and go to the Luxury and problem solved there.  

Supposedly there is an Escalade-V coming, I don't know what has taken this long, there are always people willing to pay more for the best version of something, seems like easy profit margin, but I would imagine there won't be higher power Tahoe/Yukon, and only Escalade, so there is a differentiator.  

[oldshurst442]

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

the Cadillac image isn't what it should be.

It is.

Folk like YOU will NEVER EVER give it a chance no matter what Cadillac does 

 

Ill just repeat this post again to answer you kindly...

41 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Its as luxury as anything ever that Mercedes peddles and has peddled  here in North America that is and was an econobox in Europe and passes that off here as luxury...

And Im not disputing the fact that people here in North America pay luxury money for Mercedes cars...

But I AM privy to what Mercedes peddles in Europe and what Mercedes peddles in North America.  And yes, Mercedes has gone upscale in Europe too.  But Mercedes was more econobox in Europe up until the 1990s... As where in North America, it had a more luxury image.   NOT necessarily selling more luxurious cars.  Their image was more luxurious. Their luxury was lackluster...

Mercedes has done the opposite here in North America the last 20 years as compared to what they were doing in Europe.  They have moved DOWN market in North America while they have moved UPMARKET in Europe...

But YOU and American folk like you will never admit to that. You and folk like you want to dismiss this.

Its a headscratcher to me...when a car like this is sold in America as an "entry level" luxury car 

and is on par with fit and finish and quality and "luxury" as THIS car.

yet we scoff at the Pontiac... 

And this car...while more powerful versions of this one being sold in North America...

 In Europe...really no better than this car....   Actually worse...

While in North America...the Olds version got no respect by folk like you...let alone the Pontiac and Chevy platform mates...

 

 

And there is NO rebuttal to be made... 

 

 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

, I think GMC should make the SLT trim the standard on every model, and Denali as the step up to get away from the Chevy overlap

You are imagining a problem where there is none. 

I mean, you are saying go from 6 Sierra trims… to 2.

Why the hell would GMC do that??

Answer; GMC is still expanding. The AT4 line is going to get a ‘next level’ trim. ‘sgonna be 7 trims!!

[David]

HD Dually Denali package truck $85,390

HD Denali Black Diamond edition truck $87,045

Clearly this is luxury level pricing and Mercedes is missing out on the Truck segment!

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But AT4 isn't a luxury version

Oh yes it is!

lux off-roader!

[David]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But AT4 isn't a luxury version,

As a half ton pickup, what part of $74,640 does not make this an Off-Road Luxury Pickup Truck?

As a 3/4 ton 2500 HD AT4 pickup, $84,495 me think makes this a luxury off road pickup.

I see no reason for a auto company that has deep pockets and builds commercial trucks and buses to not be in the Luxury Truck segment! 

Tesla has NOTHING to compete in this segment. Per @smk4565 Mercedes has deep R&D Pockets, so why do they not have anything to compete in this segment of Super Trucks? 🤔

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, David said:

Yes this story is a couple years old from 2019, but the GMC rep states 40% of GMC Truck Sales are the SLT trim with Denali making up 30%

SO that's 70% sold in the upper 2 trims levels the Sierra had in 2019. Because -gasp- the SLT is ALSO a luxury trim GMC.
Now there's the mid-range Elevation, and the upper-range AT4. I don't see as many SLTs, I suspect the Elevation pulled some sales down, but GMC is moving a LOT of AT4s. I'll bet the numbers are still running between 60-70% for the top two, and if you include the SLT it'll be over 75% solid (Elevations are very popular).

[David]

Seems Tesla can either win big or loose big depending on how this plays out.

Tesla has applied to become a major power producer in the State of Texas.

Charged EVs | Tesla could become a major power retailer in Texas - Charged EVs

Yet while another thing distracts their CEO, one of his praised auto's being awaited just got delayed and could be delayed even further. Shown off in 2017, promise to be on sale in 2020. Pandemic delayed to 2022 and now Musk confirms at the earliest 2023, but not a priority. 

Tesla delays new Roadster to 2023, but there's a big 'if' - Electrek

Be interesting to see how this plays out as Rivian, Ford and GM start bringing their BEVs to market later this year and have various other models coming out in 2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025 per their roadmaps.

Tesla has delayed their Semi, CyberTruck and now Roadster.

Could this be the true start of decline for Tesla?

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Cadillac image alone should make it worth more than a GMC, although the Cadillac image isn't what it should be.  GM needs to work on that part, I think the whole Cadillac brand needs to push more upmarket but that is another issue.  

The Escalade has Super Cruise and the bigger screen with some more tech, better stereo than the Denali or High Country Tahoe.   The materials and trim are better in an Escalade (more so on the higher trims) than a Yukon Denali according to Motor Trend, and they should be better if it's a Cadillac.  The Escalade in base trim though has leatherette seats, you have to go up a level to get real leather which is standard in the Yukon Denali, but skip the base Escalade and go to the Luxury and problem solved there.  

Supposedly there is an Escalade-V coming, I don't know what has taken this long, there are always people willing to pay more for the best version of something, seems like easy profit margin, but I would imagine there won't be higher power Tahoe/Yukon, and only Escalade, so there is a differentiator.  

Yet none of those “issues” have been issues since they have ZERO problem moving any of them. I think GM has it pretty well covered. 

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

What I am saying is a luxury brand truck won't work, otherwise these car companies would be doing it.

And what everyone else here is trying to tell you is that the D3 have been selling luxury pick ups for years now. It’s your favorite company that didn’t seem to have a case for it even though they are allegedly a luxury car company. See the problem yet?

7 hours ago, David said:

Seems Tesla can either win big or loose big depending on how this plays out.

Tesla has applied to become a major power producer in the State of Texas.

Charged EVs | Tesla could become a major power retailer in Texas - Charged EVs

Yet while another thing distracts their CEO, one of his praised auto's being awaited just got delayed and could be delayed even further. Shown off in 2017, promise to be on sale in 2020. Pandemic delayed to 2022 and now Musk confirms at the earliest 2023, but not a priority. 

Tesla delays new Roadster to 2023, but there's a big 'if' - Electrek

Be interesting to see how this plays out as Rivian, Ford and GM start bringing their BEVs to market later this year and have various other models coming out in 2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025 per their roadmaps.

Tesla has delayed their Semi, CyberTruck and now Roadster.

Could this be the true start of decline for Tesla?

I am wondering if anyone can get new products out on time, at this point. This shortage has affected literally everyone. 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Right, they sell high trim levels of existing trucks.  But even those are probably like a 10-20% take rate or so compared to how many Ford XLT, or Chevy LS/LT level trucks they sell.   And what you don't see is Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus pick ups and I guess Ram's luxury truck would be Alfa Romeo or Maserati.   There must not be a market for luxury brand trucks because none of them are doing it.  

If there's a 10-20% take rate on luxury trimmed trucks selling for 60-80k, there is certainly room for more. You realize what 10-20% of sales in this segment means, right? 

	2020 Sales	10%	20%
Silverado	593,057	59,306	118,611
Sierra	253,014	25,301	50,603
F150	787,372	78,737	157,474
Ram	563,676	56,368	112,735
Total	2,197,119	219,712	439,424

 

Between 220,000 and 440,000 vehicles per year are luxury trimmed trucks, based on your 10-20%.

Last year Mercedes sold a total of 324,708 vehicles in the US. 

[riviera74]

8 hours ago, David said:

Seems Tesla can either win big or loose big depending on how this plays out.

Tesla has applied to become a major power producer in the State of Texas.

Charged EVs | Tesla could become a major power retailer in Texas - Charged EVs

Yet while another thing distracts their CEO, one of his praised auto's being awaited just got delayed and could be delayed even further. Shown off in 2017, promise to be on sale in 2020. Pandemic delayed to 2022 and now Musk confirms at the earliest 2023, but not a priority. 

Tesla delays new Roadster to 2023, but there's a big 'if' - Electrek

Be interesting to see how this plays out as Rivian, Ford and GM start bringing their BEVs to market later this year and have various other models coming out in 2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025 per their roadmaps.

Tesla has delayed their Semi, CyberTruck and now Roadster.

Could this be the true start of decline for Tesla?

So Tesla wants to be a power retailer in Texas.  Given what happened this past February, Texas could use all the help they can get.

 

As for the roadster, who buys roadsters anymore?  Tesla could use either a two-row CUV or a three-row CUV to complement the Tesla X.

[ccap41]

51 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

As for the roadster, who buys roadsters anymore?  Tesla could use either a two-row CUV or a three-row CUV to complement the Tesla X.

They already have a Model Y, smaller 2-row CUV. It's been out for a couple years. 

[smk4565]

16 hours ago, David said:

As a half ton pickup, what part of $74,640 does not make this an Off-Road Luxury Pickup Truck?

As a 3/4 ton 2500 HD AT4 pickup, $84,495 me think makes this a luxury off road pickup.

I see no reason for a auto company that has deep pockets and builds commercial trucks and buses to not be in the Luxury Truck segment! 

Tesla has NOTHING to compete in this segment. Per @smk4565 Mercedes has deep R&D Pockets, so why do they not have anything to compete in this segment of Super Trucks? 🤔

But a Sierra starts at $30k.  A luxury brand half ton truck would start around $75k for a 2 wheel drive.   And I guess we’ll see how Rivian and Hummer do.  
 

If Cadillac did a pickup the base model would be like $80k and pushing up to say $110k for a half ton.  I don’t see a market for that and GM must not either or they would build it.  I am sure Mercedes doesn’t see a market for it either, especially not in Europe or China which are their 2 main markets.

[ccap41]

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But a Sierra starts at $30k.  A luxury brand half ton truck would start around $75k for a 2 wheel drive.   And I guess we’ll see how Rivian and Hummer do.  
 

If Cadillac did a pickup the base model would be like $80k and pushing up to say $110k for a half ton.  I don’t see a market for that and GM must not either or they would build it.  I am sure Mercedes doesn’t see a market for it either, especially not in Europe or China which are their 2 main markets.

These are completely random numbers. 

[balthazar]

Europeans are by & large; automotive xenophobes. They're really not a relevant market outside of themselves.

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But a Sierra starts at $30k

There's a regular cab/long bed commercial/base trim for fleet sales, yes. Almost none are retail-sold.

But as soon as you go to a crew cab/4WD, that price rises to $39K with the standard 2.7L Turbo and no options.

When I do a 500-mile radius search for a base CC/5.5' 4WD Sierra, 5 come up, sticking between $40.7K and $44.7K. That's a long damn way from "$30K".

Edited September 2, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

34 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Europeans are by & large; automotive xenophobes. They're really not a relevant market outside of themselves.

There's a regular cab/long bed commercial/base trim for fleet sales, yes. Almost none are retail-sold.

But as soon as you go to a crew cab/4WD, that price rises to $39K with the standard 2.7L Turbo and no options.

When I do a 500-mile radius search for a base CC/5.5' 4WD Sierra, 5 come up, sticking between $40.7K and $44.7K. That's a long damn way from "$30K".

Exactly, which is why the Sierra should start at the SLT trim.  Let Chevy sell work trucks and the SLE equivalent.

39 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

These are completely random numbers. 

No they aren’t, if a loaded Denali 1500 is around $75k, a Cadillac would have to start at $80k.  The luxury/sport trims would be $90k, the Platinum $100k, and you could easily have $10k in stand alone options to any of those trims.

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Exactly, which is why the Sierra should start at the SLT trim.  Let Chevy sell work trucks and the SLE equivalent.

No they aren’t, if a loaded Denali 1500 is around $75k, a Cadillac would have to start at $80k.  The luxury/sport trims would be $90k, the Platinum $100k, and you could easily have $10k in stand alone options to any of those trims.

Denali 1500 starts at 56k. A Cadillac version does not need to start at 80k. There can very easily be overlap in the 'every single option' Denali and the starter Cadillac. The Caddy could easily start at 65k and that's enough of a price gap to distinguish itself with only a little overlap from a completely loaded Danali.

Also, according to their website, you can't get the 6.2 in the Denali, it's ONLY available in the AT4. 

A 1500 Denali with the optional 3.0 diesel and every option/package box checked, it totals to 68,825 before destination. A 65k starting price for a Cadillac with the 6.2 wouldn't be a tough string to pull. 

THIS is why I said your numbers are completely random, because they are. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by ccap41

[balthazar]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Exactly, which is why the Sierra should start at the SLT trim.  Let Chevy sell work trucks and the SLE equivalent.

You do understand the difference between “retail” and “fleet”, right?

Doesn’t selling a baseline Sierra mirror EXACTLY your proposal to sell a 4-banger baseline Corvette “to sell more”?? Which is it; do you want brands to pursue selling MORE or LESS?

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Also, according to their website, you can't get the 6.2 in the Denali, it's ONLY available in the AT4. 

That’s incorrect- 6.2L has been a Sierra Denali cornerstone. 

[ccap41]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

You do understand the difference between “retail” and “fleet”, right?

Doesn’t selling a baseline Sierra mirror EXACTLY your proposal to sell a 4-banger baseline Corvette “to sell more”?? Which is it; do you want brands to pursue selling MORE or LESS?

That’s incorrect- 6.2L has been a Sierra Denali cornerstone. 

That's exactly what I thought, but it isn't on the build for a crew cab, short bed option list. 

[balthazar]

If you go thru the 'Denali' port, it's not there, but if you go thru the main Sierra port, it shows. This is why online-only shopping is a mistake- websites frequently have errors. 

[ccap41]

5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

If you go thru the 'Denali' port, it's not there, but if you go thru the main Sierra port, it shows. This is why online-only shopping is a mistake- websites frequently have errors. 

Ahhhhh I also just noticed my selection was 2WD. I bet that's the difference as your is 4WD. Thank you! I knew it had to be there or it was a 2021 change(which wouldn't make sense to me). 

[oldshurst442]

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

If there's a 10-20% take rate on luxury trimmed trucks selling for 60-80k, there is certainly room for more. You realize what 10-20% of sales in this segment means, right? 

	2020 Sales	10%	20%
Silverado	593,057	59,306	118,611
Sierra	253,014	25,301	50,603
F150	787,372	78,737	157,474
Ram	563,676	56,368	112,735
Total	2,197,119	219,712	439,424

 

Between 220,000 and 440,000 vehicles per year are luxury trimmed trucks, based on your 10-20%.

Last year Mercedes sold a total of 324,708 vehicles in the US. 

BUMP

Because its relevant not only to Tesla and and if the competition will be able to shut her down and when SMK says that Mercedes is the world's most selling luxury brand...

Like I keep on sayin...

How many of those 324 708 vehicles that Mercedes sold in the US are really above 50 000 US dollars.  Im willing to bet that most of those 324 708 vehicles that Mercedes sold are BELOW 50 thousand and 100%  lease queens to wannabes.  The equivalent of the wannabe Cadillac pimpmobile mafioso of the 1970s and 1980s albeit for Mercedes its more like fake personality yuppies...

 

[David]

52 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

BUMP

Because its relevant not only to Tesla and and if the competition will be able to shut her down and when SMK says that Mercedes is the world's most selling luxury brand...

Like I keep on sayin...

How many of those 324 708 vehicles that Mercedes sold in the US are really above 50 000 US dollars.  Im willing to bet that most of those 324 708 vehicles that Mercedes sold are BELOW 50 thousand and 100%  lease queens to wannabes.  The equivalent of the wannabe Cadillac pimpmobile mafioso of the 1970s and 1980s albeit for Mercedes its more like fake personality yuppies...

 

I looked on Statista for current lease versus sales numbers and the Germans clearly lead, but the fine details on this are currently subscription and the a quick search showed the following numbers from 2014 that showed the German brands were already leading as lease queens.

Which car brands do people lease or buy? - Cartelligent

Brands with high leasing percentages

Leasing is most attractive for clients who only plan to keep the vehicle for a short period of time. There are a number of reasons why this makes sense—many car buyers value the latest safety and tech features in their vehicles, enjoy the prestige of driving a newer car or just enjoy the fun or driving something new every few years. Additionally many business owners will choose to lease company vehicles for the tax advantages and larger companies will often give car allowances to top executives.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420Audi20A6_21-300x200.jpg

5. Audi (64% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: Luxury performance vehicles such as Audi’s are often popular choices to lease. Audi enthusiasts love the blend of style and technology the brand offers and upgrade regularly to keep up with the latest trends. Audi offers an aggressive money factor (the leasing equivelent of the interest rate) to well-qualified lessees on many models which helps to keep payments low.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420Mercedes-Benz20E-Class_11-300x200.jpg

4. Mercedes-Benz (67% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: Like Audi, Mercedes-Benz makes it attractive to own the latest model. New releases offer technology and safety features that make drivers want to update their vehicle. Mercedes-Benz also offers a high residual value on many models to lower the monthly payments on its leases.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Land20Rover20Evoque_01-300x200.jpg

3. Land Rover (68% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: Land Rover has successfully positioned its brand as a status symbol (even the Queen is driven in one!). Drivers are more likely to want the convenience of leasing so they can easily upgrade to the latest model.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420BMW20520Series_01-300x200.jpg

2. BMW (70% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: BMW incentivizes brand-enthusiasts to upgrade often with its innovations in safety and technology, as well as style. The brand also offers attractive lease-only incentives such as loyalty and lease rebates to make leasing espcially attractive to well-qualified drivers. BMW owners tend to come back and lease another BMW. (see Top ten brands for customer loyalty)

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Fiat1-300x200.jpg

1. FIAT (78% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: FIAT is a fun, sporty car for single professionals, but not necessarily one that will work once marriage and children are on the horizon. This combined with an aggressive lease rate make FIAT our most leased brand.

Brands with high purchasing percentages

Buying, on the other hand, makes sense when drivers plan to hold onto the vehicle for a number of years. Buyers tend to value reliability and economy over the latest style and gadgets. This is reflected in our list of most-purchased brands:

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Chevrolet20Tahoe1-300x200.jpg

5.  Chevrolet (63% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Our top-selling Chevy, the Volt, is primarily leased, but other popular models such as the Suburban and Tahoe are purchased by clients who intend to hold onto them for the long run.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420Honda20CR-V_01-300x200.jpg

4. Honda  (65% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Hondas are affordable, reliable cars that tend to be driven for a number of years. Honda vehicles hold onto their value consistently, which in combination with low interest rates for well-qualified buyers, make them an attractive purchase option.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420Toyota20Land20Cruiser1-300x200.jpg

3. Toyota (68% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Toyotas consistently top the charts for best resale value. It’s unsurprising that their reputation for reliability and safety makes car buyers want to drive them for a number of years, especially with Toyota’s aggressive finance rates for well-qualified buyers.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Hyundai20Sonata1-300x200.jpg

2. Hyundai (73% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Hyundai’s come standard with a 10-year/100,000 mile Powertain Limited Warranty and five years of unlimited roadside assistance. Hyundai buyers top our list of financed vehicles (as opposed to those who pay in full up front for their new car).

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Subaru20Outback_01-300x200.jpg

1. Subaru (75% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Subaru is another brand renowned for safety and reliability. Eco-conscious Subaru buyers are also shy of financing—the brand tops our list of vehicles customers pay for in full.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

You do understand the difference between “retail” and “fleet”, right?

Doesn’t selling a baseline Sierra mirror EXACTLY your proposal to sell a 4-banger baseline Corvette “to sell more”?? Which is it; do you want brands to pursue selling MORE or LESS?

That’s incorrect- 6.2L has been a Sierra Denali cornerstone. 

GMC shouldn't have any fleet, they can sell those through Chevy.  GMC is supposed to be a level above Chevy, it shouldn't overlap Chevy.  All 4 GM brands  basically cover the same price ranges, that makes no sense.  

The Corvette is a Chevy, so value should be in there, that is why I have said I could see a turbo 4 or V6 with say 375-400 hp as a base Corvette for $55k, then the V8 Stingray can start at $65k, or even $70k, just put a little extra equipment standard on the V8 that is optional on the base car.  And you'd have the Z06 at the top.   Then you make a Cadillac sports car that starts at say $90k or $100k, and then goes upwards from there, to deliver luxury the Corvette can't, and a top end Cadillac would deliver performance above a Z06.  

My point is more that Chevy should be lower cost and volume based.  Thus the Corvette shouldn't be a $100k+ car, the $100k car should be a Cadillac, with Cadillac level service, Cadillac dealers, etc.  And GMC shouldn't be selling pickups (or SUV's) for the price of a Chevy.  The GMC should be like 25% more than a Chevy, the Cadillac 50% more than a Chevy so you have actual tiers, like the way GM was designed to be 90 years ago.

 

[riviera74]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

GMC shouldn't have any fleet, they can sell those through Chevy.  GMC is supposed to be a level above Chevy, it shouldn't overlap Chevy.  All 4 GM brands  basically cover the same price ranges, that makes no sense.  

The Corvette is a Chevy, so value should be in there, that is why I have said I could see a turbo 4 or V6 with say 375-400 hp as a base Corvette for $55k, then the V8 Stingray can start at $65k, or even $70k, just put a little extra equipment standard on the V8 that is optional on the base car.  And you'd have the Z06 at the top.   Then you make a Cadillac sports car that starts at say $90k or $100k, and then goes upwards from there, to deliver luxury the Corvette can't, and a top end Cadillac would deliver performance above a Z06.  

My point is more that Chevy should be lower cost and volume based.  Thus the Corvette shouldn't be a $100k+ car, the $100k car should be a Cadillac, with Cadillac level service, Cadillac dealers, etc.  And GMC shouldn't be selling pickups (or SUV's) for the price of a Chevy.  The GMC should be like 25% more than a Chevy, the Cadillac 50% more than a Chevy so you have actual tiers, like the way GM was designed to be 90 years ago.

 

Ah yes, the Alfred Sloan model from about 1920.  That worked great until homologation came in the 1970s.  Maybe GM should go back to that.  Maybe. . . .

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

BUMP

Because its relevant not only to Tesla and and if the competition will be able to shut her down and when SMK says that Mercedes is the world's most selling luxury brand...

Like I keep on sayin...

How many of those 324 708 vehicles that Mercedes sold in the US are really above 50 000 US dollars.  Im willing to bet that most of those 324 708 vehicles that Mercedes sold are BELOW 50 thousand and 100%  lease queens to wannabes.  The equivalent of the wannabe Cadillac pimpmobile mafioso of the 1970s and 1980s albeit for Mercedes its more like fake personality yuppies...

 

Their #1 selling car in the USA this year is the GLE, average sale price on those is $75k.  Their #2 seller is the E-class, which costs the same as a GLE, and #3 is the GLC. 

For the first half of 2021, 74,034 of Mercedes 160,646 sales were vehicles with a base MSRP over $54,000 (46.1%).  If you add in C-class and GLC (which some body styles like C-convertible and GLC Coupe base over $50k and average sale prices of those lines would top $50k) you get 121,978 out of 160,646 which is 75.9%.  And some CLA, GLB, GLA are selling for over $50k, but let's assume those cancel out with base C300's selling for under $50k and call that a wash.

For Cadillac, 20,716 of their 73,406 sales in the first half of 2021 are vehicles with a base MSRP over $50,000, which is 28.2%.  Also interesting to note, that  Mercedes with just their cars that start over $54k outsell the whole Cadillac brand.

[smk4565]

30 minutes ago, David said:

I looked on Statista for current lease versus sales numbers and the Germans clearly lead, but the fine details on this are currently subscription and the a quick search showed the following numbers from 2014 that showed the German brands were already leading as lease queens.

Which car brands do people lease or buy? - Cartelligent

Brands with high leasing percentages

Leasing is most attractive for clients who only plan to keep the vehicle for a short period of time. There are a number of reasons why this makes sense—many car buyers value the latest safety and tech features in their vehicles, enjoy the prestige of driving a newer car or just enjoy the fun or driving something new every few years. Additionally many business owners will choose to lease company vehicles for the tax advantages and larger companies will often give car allowances to top executives.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420Audi20A6_21-300x200.jpg

5. Audi (64% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: Luxury performance vehicles such as Audi’s are often popular choices to lease. Audi enthusiasts love the blend of style and technology the brand offers and upgrade regularly to keep up with the latest trends. Audi offers an aggressive money factor (the leasing equivelent of the interest rate) to well-qualified lessees on many models which helps to keep payments low.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420Mercedes-Benz20E-Class_11-300x200.jpg

4. Mercedes-Benz (67% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: Like Audi, Mercedes-Benz makes it attractive to own the latest model. New releases offer technology and safety features that make drivers want to update their vehicle. Mercedes-Benz also offers a high residual value on many models to lower the monthly payments on its leases.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Land20Rover20Evoque_01-300x200.jpg

3. Land Rover (68% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: Land Rover has successfully positioned its brand as a status symbol (even the Queen is driven in one!). Drivers are more likely to want the convenience of leasing so they can easily upgrade to the latest model.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420BMW20520Series_01-300x200.jpg

2. BMW (70% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: BMW incentivizes brand-enthusiasts to upgrade often with its innovations in safety and technology, as well as style. The brand also offers attractive lease-only incentives such as loyalty and lease rebates to make leasing espcially attractive to well-qualified drivers. BMW owners tend to come back and lease another BMW. (see Top ten brands for customer loyalty)

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Fiat1-300x200.jpg

1. FIAT (78% Leased)

Why leasing is popular: FIAT is a fun, sporty car for single professionals, but not necessarily one that will work once marriage and children are on the horizon. This combined with an aggressive lease rate make FIAT our most leased brand.

Brands with high purchasing percentages

Buying, on the other hand, makes sense when drivers plan to hold onto the vehicle for a number of years. Buyers tend to value reliability and economy over the latest style and gadgets. This is reflected in our list of most-purchased brands:

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Chevrolet20Tahoe1-300x200.jpg

5.  Chevrolet (63% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Our top-selling Chevy, the Volt, is primarily leased, but other popular models such as the Suburban and Tahoe are purchased by clients who intend to hold onto them for the long run.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420Honda20CR-V_01-300x200.jpg

4. Honda  (65% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Hondas are affordable, reliable cars that tend to be driven for a number of years. Honda vehicles hold onto their value consistently, which in combination with low interest rates for well-qualified buyers, make them an attractive purchase option.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201420Toyota20Land20Cruiser1-300x200.jpg

3. Toyota (68% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Toyotas consistently top the charts for best resale value. It’s unsurprising that their reputation for reliability and safety makes car buyers want to drive them for a number of years, especially with Toyota’s aggressive finance rates for well-qualified buyers.

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Hyundai20Sonata1-300x200.jpg

2. Hyundai (73% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Hyundai’s come standard with a 10-year/100,000 mile Powertain Limited Warranty and five years of unlimited roadside assistance. Hyundai buyers top our list of financed vehicles (as opposed to those who pay in full up front for their new car).

http://www.cartelligent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/201520Subaru20Outback_01-300x200.jpg

1. Subaru (75% Purchased)

Why buying is popular: Subaru is another brand renowned for safety and reliability. Eco-conscious Subaru buyers are also shy of financing—the brand tops our list of vehicles customers pay for in full.

Couple things,

1.  Luxury brands tend to have high lease rates because wealthy people trade cars more often and want a new car every 3 years.  They have the disposable income to do that.  Where as a middle class, or maybe lower middle class buyer (if they can even afford a new car anymore) are going to look at something to finance on a 5-7 year loan and try to keep that car 8-10 years to get value out of it, because they can't afford to go buy a new car every 3 years.  

2.  Brands with high resale value can offer attractive lease rates, when brands with poor resale value can not.  Toyota should actually be able to kill it in leasing because of the resale value they have.

3.  Fiat on there is an outlier, I suspect that is a manufacturer subsidized lease that they loose money on every one, but they have union contracts at factories they can't close and need CAFE credits, etc and no one will buy them, so they give them away on a lease.

15 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Ah yes, the Alfred Sloan model from about 1920.  That worked great until homologation came in the 1970s.  Maybe GM should go back to that.  Maybe. . . .

Yes they should.  And you can still share platforms and some powertrains, that most consumers don't care about or know the difference.  Especially in an EV world where everything is a chassis full of batteries with a body bolted on top.  I am all for economies of scale to drive down cost.  But you need 3 tiers, like going form Holiday Inn to a Marriott, to a Ritz Carlton.  There needs to be a clear difference int he product.

[David]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Their #1 selling car in the USA this year is the GLE, average sale price on those is $75k.  Their #2 seller is the E-class, which costs the same as a GLE, and #3 is the GLC. 

For the first half of 2021, 74,034 of Mercedes 160,646 sales were vehicles with a base MSRP over $54,000 (46.1%).  If you add in C-class and GLC (which some body styles like C-convertible and GLC Coupe base over $50k and average sale prices of those lines would top $50k) you get 121,978 out of 160,646 which is 75.9%.  And some CLA, GLB, GLA are selling for over $50k, but let's assume those cancel out with base C300's selling for under $50k and call that a wash.

For Cadillac, 20,716 of their 73,406 sales in the first half of 2021 are vehicles with a base MSRP over $50,000, which is 28.2%.  Also interesting to note, that  Mercedes with just their cars that start over $54k outsell the whole Cadillac brand.

You have been asked so many times, POST THE DAMN LINK TO YOUR FACTS!

So based on their actual reporting for all of 2020:

Mercedes-Benz reports 2020 sales of 325,915 vehicles (mbusa.com)

Quote: Year-to-date, MBUSA's volume leaders were the GLC, GLE and the E- Class/CLS with totals of 52,626; 48,154; and 27,102 respectively. SUVs accounted for 65% of total sales in 2020. The all new GLA and GLB SUVs accounted for more than 25% of total SUV sales in 2020.

Q1 2021 Mercedes-Benz reports Q1 2021 sales of 78,256 vehicles (mbusa.com)

Mercedes-Benz volume leaders in Q1 included the GLE, GLC and E-Class/CLS model lines. The GLE led totals with 16,668 units followed by GLC with sales of 15,569. The E- Class/CLS rounded out the top three with 8,199 units. Our diverse lineup of SUVs accounted for 69% of our total sales volume during Q1.

Q2 2021 Mercedes-Benz reports Q2 2021 sales of 82,390 vehicles (mbusa.com)

Mercedes-Benz volume leaders in Q2 included the GLE, CLC and GLB model lines. The GLE led totals with 19,037 units followed by GLC with sales of 14,580. The GLB rounded out the top three with 10,360 units. Year-to-date, MBUSA's volume leaders are the GLE, GLC and C- Class with totals of 35,705; 30,149; and 17,795 respectively.

Looking at Average sales price 2021 Mercedes-Benz GLB Prices & Incentives - TrueCar

I am NOT finding CLA, GLA, GLB selling over $50K at all.

In fact according to this the average transaction price is as follows by model. This only shows a couple models north of $50K and most are well below showing Mercedes to no longer be a Luxury brand but a global brand on par with Chevrolet and Toyota.

Mercedes-Benz Price Trends - CarGurus

This I find very interesting showing that Mercedes GLE is in #2 place as the most heaviest discounted auto right behind Cadillac XT5.

Consumer Reports: The Most Discounted New Cars Right Now (motorbiscuit.com)

[Drew Dowdell]

On 8/31/2021 at 11:14 PM, smk4565 said:

As far as a truck, they do make the G-wagen, they make the Unimog, the best off roader ever,  and Daimler is the world's #1 producer of Class 8 trucks.  I don't think pick up truck is where Mercedes-Benz wants to be, the Nissan tie in was an experiment to test the waters in Europe without them spending much money, and it was the right move, because a Merceres pick up isn't going to be a popular seller.  Much like Cadillac EXT, Lincoln Blackwood, Lincoln Mark LT didn't work, there is no Lexus version of the Tundra, etc.  Not a lot of market for a luxury pick up.

*Denali has entered the chat*

*F-150 King Ranch has entered the chat*

*F-150 Platinum has entered the chat*

*Ram Limited has entered the chat*

The Lincoln Blackwood was a limited edition truck, available only in a shortbed with a wooden liner and only in 2wd. 

The Lincoln LT was a victim of badge engineering.. it offered nothing but a grille and a navigator dash over the F150. The suspension and transmission were the same. The only hardware difference is that it was AWD rather than 4WD.

The Escalade EXT was more than a badge job most years.  It came with a bigger motor (6.0L) than the Avalanche (5.3) in the first generation. The second generation got the 6.2 while the Avalanche only got the 5.3 and for a couple years an optional (and very rare) 6.0. The Escalade had AWD instead of 4WD and they got air shocks (air shocks were only an LTZ option on the Avalanche, I have them) In addition to the Escalade dash, the door panels were upgraded as well. 

The only reason the Escalade EXT died was because the Avalanche died... and the Avalanche died due to GM stupidity.  The Avalanche and EXT for some reason were not built on the Suburban/Tahoe line, instead they were built on the Silverado/Sierra line. GM wanted to sell more Sierras and Silverados to compete with Ford. They decided there wasn't enough room to build the Avalanche/EXT in Arlington next to the Suburban, so it got canceled. 

I think there absolutely is a market there for a luxury truck. Denali and the premium offerings from Ram and Ford prove that. Plus there's the luxury 250/2500 series trucks as well... I see a LOT of Denali 2500 Duramaxes around me.

The reason there's no Lexus version of the Tundra is because Toyota has enough trouble moving the Tundra as it is. It isn't a compelling offering in the truck market and it is the second worst fuel economy after the Titan.  Toyota had hoped to sell 200k Tundras a year and they barely crack 100k.  The Titan sells a pathetic 26k a year, but the only reason it survives is because it rides on the same frame/platform as the Armada/QX80 and the NV Vans... but with the NV getting discontinued and Armada/QX80 sales under 45k.. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Titan discontinued entirely in a few years.

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

My point is more that Chevy should be lower cost and volume based.

This thinking is outmoded. 

mercedes is volume-based and it's higher cost.
Just about all the 'bottom tier' brands (hyundai, honda, kia, etc) have pushed upmarket, Chevy has pushed upmarket, there's no USDM equivalent of a 1980 Chevette anymore. Yeah; relatively lower cost', and it is on many models, but there's no rule it also can't build high-priced models (obviously).

Look at your fanboy brand's car line pricing overlap / shared engines/ transmissions... why aren't they clearly separated by a hard bundle of thousands? 

Because it's not necessary. GMC is at record-breaking volume levels; they sold almost 10% more Sierras during a global pandemic than the year before. They're not going to exceed than for '21 due to the chip shortage / production constraints... but they're selling every single Sierra they can build. 253K in 2020, on pace for 276K for '21 (thru Q2).

Again; you're trying to create a problem where there is none, and going thru a 1980's filter to do so.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Brands with high resale value can offer attractive lease rates

According to the above, fiat's are the most popular leased model, yet there are no fiat's listed in the top 71 higher-value retained vehicles. That would support a vast divergence between a fiat's lease rates and its low resale value.

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

My point is more that Chevy should be lower cost and volume based.  Thus the Corvette shouldn't be a $100k+ car, the $100k car should be a Cadillac

Why does this bother you so much???!!!

Dont answer as your opinion means shyte...

1953 Corvette

 

The Corvette emblem on that hood

 

1957 Corvette

The front emblem remains largely the same....

The side emblem of that 57 Corvette

 

'57 Chevy

 

The emblem on the side of a 57 Chevy fuelie

 

 

Emblems of Impala SSs

1960

1961

 

1962 Impala SS

 

 

1963 Impala SS

 

1964 Impala SS

 

1965 Impala SS

 

1966 Impala SS

 

1966 Chevelle SS

  

1967 Impala

 

And that was the last time I believe the checkered cross flags were placed on a vehicle other than the Corvette...

Corvette emblems

 

Tim Allen's Hot Rodded LT5 engine swapped Impala SS.

Notice the so called Corvette cross flag?

Through out the decades, Corvette enthusiasts with other Chevrolet die hard performance guys along with other brand's sports car crazy folk KNOW the Corvette is a Chevrolet. They all LOVE the fact that the Corvette is a Chevrolet!

 

Through out the decades, Corvette enthusiasts with other Chevrolet die hard performance guys along with other brand's sports car crazy folk KNOW the Corvette is a Chevrolet. They all LOVE the fact that the Corvette is a Chevrolet!

 

Corvette Racing

http://www.speedsport.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/44/2020/03/2001bc3439.jpg.jpg

 

With the Corvette logo front and center and the Chevy Bow Tie displayed in it!!!

The Corvette will ALWAYS be a Chevrolet.  Stop with your nonsense.  

Edited September 3, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, David said:

You have been asked so many times, POST THE DAMN LINK TO YOUR FACTS!

So based on their actual reporting for all of 2020:

Mercedes-Benz reports 2020 sales of 325,915 vehicles (mbusa.com)

Quote: Year-to-date, MBUSA's volume leaders were the GLC, GLE and the E- Class/CLS with totals of 52,626; 48,154; and 27,102 respectively. SUVs accounted for 65% of total sales in 2020. The all new GLA and GLB SUVs accounted for more than 25% of total SUV sales in 2020.

Q1 2021 Mercedes-Benz reports Q1 2021 sales of 78,256 vehicles (mbusa.com)

Mercedes-Benz volume leaders in Q1 included the GLE, GLC and E-Class/CLS model lines. The GLE led totals with 16,668 units followed by GLC with sales of 15,569. The E- Class/CLS rounded out the top three with 8,199 units. Our diverse lineup of SUVs accounted for 69% of our total sales volume during Q1.

Q2 2021 Mercedes-Benz reports Q2 2021 sales of 82,390 vehicles (mbusa.com)

Mercedes-Benz volume leaders in Q2 included the GLE, CLC and GLB model lines. The GLE led totals with 19,037 units followed by GLC with sales of 14,580. The GLB rounded out the top three with 10,360 units. Year-to-date, MBUSA's volume leaders are the GLE, GLC and C- Class with totals of 35,705; 30,149; and 17,795 respectively.

Looking at Average sales price 2021 Mercedes-Benz GLB Prices & Incentives - TrueCar

I am NOT finding CLA, GLA, GLB selling over $50K at all.

 

 

And those are base models with no options.  That doesn't exist on a dealer lot.

Here is a GLB without any options added on True car over $50k:

 

And here is the Cadillac CT5, is the ATP on that really $37k?

Your TrueCar numbers are worthless because all it is showing is an expected sale price on the base trim, base model, no options vehicle.  And that vehicle doesn't even exist on a dealer lot.  Just like GMC sells 40% Denali, or whatever the rate is, people put options on Mercedes too, people buy E450s, they buy AMGs, buy more V8 S-classes than V6 ones.  It's the same thing on just about every brand.

 

 

[balthazar]

The 1921 Sloan Model is an interesting case study. At the point the internal discussions were happening on this matter, General Motors had 10 price tiers; 2 Chevrolets, 1 Oakland, 3 Olds', a Scripps-Booth, a Sheridan, Buick & Cadillac. Except for Cadillac, there were overlaps- some slight, some huge... but the issue of GM's 'rough times' circa 1920 was massively complex and not solely centered on price overlap.

What commonly gets lost in this topic is how utterly autonomous the Divisions were in this era; it was no more significant that a Chevrolet FB overlapped an Oakland nearly 1:1 than it did if it overlapped -say- Dodge. They were independent companies, and everyone in the same given segment overlapped each other (as they do today). Parent corporation is meaningless here.

The Sloan Proposal was 5 new, non-specific, non-overlapping price tiers.

Creating a tiered pricing structure was 1% of what GM decided to try out in order to pull the Corp out of the 1920 mud. It really was the biggest reorganization GM ever executed, moreso than the 2008 Bailout.

In other words, it's not applicable to today's industry.

Edited September 3, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

*Denali has entered the chat*

*F-150 King Ranch has entered the chat*

*F-150 Platinum has entered the chat*

*Ram Limited has entered the chat*

The Lincoln Blackwood was a limited edition truck, available only in a shortbed with a wooden liner and only in 2wd. 

The Lincoln LT was a victim of badge engineering.. it offered nothing but a grille and a navigator dash over the F150. The suspension and transmission were the same. The only hardware difference is that it was AWD rather than 4WD.

The Escalade EXT was more than a badge job most years.  It came with a bigger motor (6.0L) than the Avalanche (5.3) in the first generation. The second generation got the 6.2 while the Avalanche only got the 5.3 and for a couple years an optional (and very rare) 6.0. The Escalade had AWD instead of 4WD and they got air shocks (air shocks were only an LTZ option on the Avalanche, I have them) In addition to the Escalade dash, the door panels were upgraded as well. 

The only reason the Escalade EXT died was because the Avalanche died... and the Avalanche died due to GM stupidity.  The Avalanche and EXT for some reason were not built on the Suburban/Tahoe line, instead they were built on the Silverado/Sierra line. GM wanted to sell more Sierras and Silverados to compete with Ford. They decided there wasn't enough room to build the Avalanche/EXT in Arlington next to the Suburban, so it got canceled. 

I think there absolutely is a market there for a luxury truck. Denali and the premium offerings from Ram and Ford prove that. Plus there's the luxury 250/2500 series trucks as well... I see a LOT of Denali 2500 Duramaxes around me.

The reason there's no Lexus version of the Tundra is because Toyota has enough trouble moving the Tundra as it is. It isn't a compelling offering in the truck market and it is the second worst fuel economy after the Titan.  Toyota had hoped to sell 200k Tundras a year and they barely crack 100k.  The Titan sells a pathetic 26k a year, but the only reason it survives is because it rides on the same frame/platform as the Armada/QX80 and the NV Vans... but with the NV getting discontinued and Armada/QX80 sales under 45k.. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Titan discontinued entirely in a few years.

But the Lincoln Mark LT failing sort of proves my point.  Even if it was a badge job, if the Lincoln badge carried weight, and people wanted a truck from a luxury brand, they should be willing to pay extra for the badge alone.  And I agree the Mark LT was poor execution, what would need to happen is more of the difference you see in a Navigator and an Expedition Limited to justify the price difference.

I write estimates on cars, the Avalanche basically has the same parts and schematics as a Suburban, they are a Suburban with the roof cut off in back basically, so it would make more sense to build them with the Suburban rather than the Silverado.   But sales declined on those, GM obviously thought there wasn't enough of a market for Avalanche/EXT or that people would just buy a Silverado anyway and they'd still get their money.

The Tundra is super dated, engine sucks, it is way too thirsty and they don't have enough variants over all.  They make like 9 versions of the Rav4, yet like 1 version of the Tundra, no wonder it does't sell.  If Toyota was aggressive with the Tundra as they are on Camry and Rav4 re-designs and engine choices and hybrids, then I think the Tundra would hit that 200k.  The Titan/Armada/QX80 are a disaster, also super dated and never were competitive to begin with, they should just kill all that off, make some 3 row electric SUV, bring back an Xterra BOF SUV based of the new Frontier that is like $30-40k, people would buy that.

Bu Luxury truck, you are talking about a luxury trim of an existing truck.  For sure there is room for Denalis and F150 Limited.  But do you see a market for a truck from a luxury brand, like Cadillac or Lincoln or Lexus?

[smk4565]

13 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The 1921 Sloan Model is an interesting case study. At the point the internal discussions were happening on this matter, General Motors had 10 price tiers; 2 Chevrolets, 1 Oakland, 3 Olds', a Scripps-Booth, a Sheridan, Buick & Cadillac. Except for Cadillac, there were overlaps- some slight, some huge... but the issue of GM's 'rough times' circa 1920 was massively complex and not solely centered on price overlap.

What commonly gets lost in this topic is how utterly autonomous the Divisions were in this era; it was no more significant that a Chevrolet FB overlapped an Oakland nearly 1:1 than it did if it overlapped -say- Dodge. They were independent companies, and everyone in the same given segment overlapped each other (as they do today). Parent corporation is meaningless here.

The Sloan Proposal was 5 new, non-specific, non-overlapping price tiers.

Creating a tiered pricing structure was 1% of what GM decided to try out in order to pull the Corp out of the 1920 mud. It really was the biggest reorganization GM ever executed, moreso than the 2008 Bailout.

In other words, it's not applicable to today's industry.

They don't have to copy the 1920s, but have brands more defined by price structure.  So if you have a small SUV for example, the Chevy starts at $25k, the Buick version $30k, the GMC $35k and the Cadillac $45k.   But right now an Equinox and Terrain overlap in price, the Envision and XT4 are like $4k apart.  Probably even more so important now that Buick doesn't have sedans, at least when Buick had sedans, they could focus on cars while GMC did trucks in the Buick-GMC dealership.  Jaguar-Land Rover has the same problem, once they kill all the Jaguar cars and Jaguar just makes SUVs, what is the point of 2 SUVs of the same size, same price, same engine, same switchgear, etc in the same dealership.

[balthazar]

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

right now an Equinox and Terrain overlap in price, the Envision and XT4 are like $4k apart.

So what?

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They make like 9 versions of the Rav4, yet like 1 version of the Tundra, no wonder it does't sell.

But you JUST advocated reducing GMC Sierra from 6 trims to 2!

At some point don't you have to take a breath, re-read what you write, and decide 'Yeah, maybe that really is massively inconsistent.' ?

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

what is the point of 2 SUVs of the same size, same price, same engine, same switchgear, etc in the same dealership.

I dunno; if sales move online / car delivery services, AND someday everything is just electric motor-propelled, what's the point of 40 SUVs of the same size, same motor, same features, etc on the same computer screen? 

Edited September 3, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

then I think the Tundra would hit that 200k

Pretty damned poor showing when GMC is hitting nearly 300K, no?

Why shouldn't toyoter be selling 1,000,000 tundras?

[David]

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And those are base models with no options.  That doesn't exist on a dealer lot.

Here is a GLB without any options added on True car over $50k:

 

And here is the Cadillac CT5, is the ATP on that really $37k?

Your TrueCar numbers are worthless because all it is showing is an expected sale price on the base trim, base model, no options vehicle.  And that vehicle doesn't even exist on a dealer lot.  Just like GMC sells 40% Denali, or whatever the rate is, people put options on Mercedes too, people buy E450s, they buy AMGs, buy more V8 S-classes than V6 ones.  It's the same thing on just about every brand.

WOW, I honestly thought you had a Brain to think, but clearly common sense is not common is true for you. I realize that you click a specific model and build to meet your narcassistic storyline. The web pages are very clear, I DID NOT build any model, I clicked on the specific model with my local zip and TrueCar pulls the most common average build of that model and average transaction price.

Yes, I can Edit the vehicle to make changes to the most common average build. Edmunds and other auto web sites does the same thing. You can build it and cherry pick such as you did or you can select a brand, specific model with zip and it will show you the most common configuration sold in your region and the average transaction price.

Changing the zip code across the US shows the price does not change much. Mercedes is heavily discounted and most models sell below your vaunted $50K price. Then you have the few pockets like Billings Montana where I am shocked on the average transaction price on a GLE.

Escalade sells in Billings above MSRP Average too.

[balthazar]

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

do you see a market for a truck from a luxury brand, like Cadillac or Lincoln or Lexus?

Lexus; no. Like someone pointed out; it'd be based on a bottom feeder toyoter; that's a poor foundation to build off of, esp when all toyoter is doing is (badly) copying the Big 4 trucks. 

Cadillac & Lincoln... I think they are playing it right by conceding the lux truck segment to the higher volume in-house brands. There's too much of a 'well-worn path' to Ford to try and divert traffic to Lincoln at this point. It's possible tho, esp if a Lincoln truck had as much attention to detail as the Navigator has shown. I just don't think every brand needs tube in every segment (something I've said many many times here).

[David]

So the question this whole channel has been about is Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

Mercedes EQ Roadmap

General Motors Ultium Roadmap

Of which we have these two coming under GMC Hummer

Where is Mercedes Answer to this?

GM has already confirmed the Lyriq for Cadillac, Chevrolet has the Bolt and Bolt EUV, plus we know a GMC and Chevrolet regular electric pickup is coming.

Ford has not shown a detailed electric roadmap that I have seen, but we have the Mach-E that is 70% conquest sales mainly from Tesla. F-150 Lightning electric pickup that will be in both fleet and retail models coming next year.

Then we have Rivian with their R1T and R1S and 6 more electric auto's on the way by 2025.

At this point, Tesla has some serious problems, no wonder they are looking to become a power supply company as they cannot seem to deliver on a broader portfolio that @smk4565 have said everyone has to have to be successful.

Semi truck - DELAYED

Cyber truck - DELAYED and Musk has said if he built it today it would cost over $1 million dollars.

Roadster - DELAYED

Musk can blame all he wants on parts including chip shortage, but reality is poor leadership.

Mercedes seems to be having the same issue with the large amount of cars versus what the public wants in trucks and SUV/CUVs.

[smk4565]

31 minutes ago, balthazar said:

So what?

But you JUST advocated reducing GMC Sierra from 6 trims to 2!

At some point don't you have to take a breath, re-read what you write, and decide 'Yeah, maybe that really is massively inconsistent.' ?

I dunno; if sales move online / car delivery services, AND someday everything is just electric motor-propelled, what's the point of 40 SUVs of the same size, same motor, same features, etc on the same computer screen? 

I advocated for GMC Sierra to have SLT, AT4 and Denali trims, but also I would keep 2WD, 4WD, turbo 4, 5.3 V8, 6.2 V8, and regular, super and quad cab configuration, plus 2500/3500 also.  I want to wipe out basically any Sierra under $45-50k and steer those buyers to Chevy.   The Tundra has a supercab only available on the base model, other wise is the quad cab with 1 engine choice.  That is my problem with the Tundra.  Plus the Silverado is the competitor to the Tundra, and they can run a dozen versions of the Silverado if they want.

And there is no point to 40 SUVs, but that is what car companies do, I just watched a video on the Corolla Cross today, because Toyota clearly thought they need more SUVs and the 6 or 7 they have wasn't enough.  And maybe the Yaris Cross will come here, why the hell not, more, more, more SUVs is what car execs think.

[balthazar]

Just like they think ‘more more more pickup trims’. And it works.

GMC is printing money & expanding models and sales of models. That’s everything you’ve randomly thrown up on the chalkboard for ‘success’; more models, cheap models, higher trim models, more volume/revenue/profit.

But for some reason -unless it IS just the outmoded 1980s think- “GMC has problems that need fixing. Weird. Illogical. 

[smk4565]

15 minutes ago, David said:

So the question this whole channel has been about is Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

Mercedes EQ Roadmap

General Motors Ultium Roadmap

Of which we have these two coming under GMC Hummer

Where is Mercedes Answer to this?

GM has already confirmed the Lyriq for Cadillac, Chevrolet has the Bolt and Bolt EUV, plus we know a GMC and Chevrolet regular electric pickup is coming.

Ford has not shown a detailed electric roadmap that I have seen, but we have the Mach-E that is 70% conquest sales mainly from Tesla. F-150 Lightning electric pickup that will be in both fleet and retail models coming next year.

Then we have Rivian with their R1T and R1S and 6 more electric auto's on the way by 2025.

At this point, Tesla has some serious problems, no wonder they are looking to become a power supply company as they cannot seem to deliver on a broader portfolio that you have said everyone has to have to be successful.

Semi truck - DELAYED

Cyber truck - DELAYED and Musk has said if he built it today it would cost over $1 million dollars.

Roadster - DELAYED

Musk can blame all he wants on parts including chip shortage, but reality is poor leadership.

Mercedes seems to be having the same issue with the large amount of cars versus what the public wants in trucks and SUV/CUVs.

Mercedes is doing an electric G-wagen, there is your answer.  The G-wagen is the king of all SUVs, I am shocked there isn't a Maybach version of it (besides that convertible they did on the last one), but they'll have the electric and it will still be an icon.

The public wants SUVs here, of which Mercedes has 9 of them, and 2 more coming next year, I think 11 is enough freaking SUVs.  But in China sedans still sell, same with Europe.  Mercedes sells like 325k units in the USA, vs 2 million outside of the USA, the American market isn't what steers their ship, like these other car companies.  

Tesla has problems for sure getting new product out, but their current product is still selling faster than they can make it.  So what we basically have here is a race to flood the market with EV's and then you also need people to buy these.  But assuming people do buy EV's, then it comes down to who can get the product out, and that will be the companies with deep pockets and lots of manufacturing capacity.  Which is the VW's, Mercedes, GM's Toyota's of the world, and not the Rivians and Lucids of the world.  Lucid just had a big stock crash yesterday as a lot of their early investors cashed out since they had agreements to keep the money in for 6 months or something and the time frame passed.  Lucid stock is down 23% in the past 6 months, GM down 7% Tesla up 12%.  Ford, Honda and Diamler have small gains, but Toyota is up 18.4% in the past 6 months, Toyota has $46 Billion cash on hand, that's a crap ton.

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Just like they think ‘more more more pickup trims’. And it works.

GMC is printing money & expanding models and sales of models. That’s everything you’ve randomly thrown up on the chalkboard for ‘success’; more models, cheap models, higher trim models, more volume/revenue/profit.

But for some reason -unless it IS just the outmoded 1980s think- “GMC has problems that need fixing. Weird. Illogical. 

But GMC is supposed to be better than Chevy, not equal to Chevy.  

[surreal1272]

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Lucid just had a big stock crash yesterday as a lot of their early investors cashed out

Funny how you only use part of the facts. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fxstreet.com/amp/news/lcid-stock-news-lucid-group-inc-drops-lower-as-pipe-lockup-period-approaches-202108311122

 

At least, unlike Tesla investors, they were given the option to cash in. Tesla doesn’t give any option for dividends which makes their stock price look good but also way overvalued. This has been discussed before. None of this means the end of companies Ike Lucid though.