Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[oldshurst442]

12 hours ago, David said:

Interesting, Edmunds while very impressed with the Tesla S Plaid, does clearly say it is a waste of money unless your a Rabid Tesla fan and badge snob that has to have the top of the line to brag about it. The Value is the Tesla S Long Range version.

 

 

Well....I only listened to about 8 minutes of the video.

The driver/tester/opinion maker  states that this is a modern electric interpretation of an electric muscle car. 

Without the nuisances of what truly makes a  muscle car...

I wanna be clear about one thing though...

Is a Dodge Challenger Hellcat Red Eye or a Mustang GT500 or a Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 or a Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 or a Mercedes GT AMG Blackseries or a Ferrari/Lamborghini whatever model Superleggera also waste of money unless you are a rabid fanboy of MOPAR, Mustang, Chevrolet (Camaro or Corvette), Mercedes, Ferrari and Lamborghini too JUST because the lesser models of those cars could be driven on public roads with less speed and more manageable and because they cost less to purchase therefore more of value too?

I get that the Plaid trim of the Model S is overkill, but its in the same vein as a sub 900 horsepower Challenger Demon. Its cray cray.  But THAT is why we fall in love with automobiles, especially certain sports-y automobiles...because of the cray cray factor.

Musk canceled an even more crazier version (because of reasons)  of the Plaid.  Im pissed at him for NOT releasing it. 

I dont care if there is a more sensible Model S to be bought, or a more manageable Corvette Stingray, or an all wheel drive Pentastar powered Charger.   I LIVE FOR STUPENDOUS VEHICLES that manufacturers continue to throw at us. No matter what brand or what motorvation powers them. I want manufacturers to continue to give us these absolute idiotic machines...

Ludicrous speed and Freedom mode!

Howling superchargers of hell sucking up air and gasoline!!!

THAT is what I want.

The MORE the better!

Fuc  Forget that video and fuc forget Edmunds! 

 

[riviera74]

Does the cray cray factor convince customers to go into a GM showroom and buy a crossover instead of the competition?  If not, then the halo car effect may have been diminished beyond detection.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Does the cray cray factor convince customers to go into a GM showroom and buy a crossover instead of the competition?  If not, then the halo car effect may have been diminished beyond detection.

 

I dunno

But, Dodge seems to be selling up the cray cray factor.  

I aint gonna talk about the sports car makers like Ferrari, Porsche...

But Ford too, seems to be selling up the cray cray factor.

GTs (with a possible V8 for a last hurrah), Mustang GT500s, Raptors, even Mach E GTs and Edge STs.

Chevrolet too actually.

Camaro 1LEs, ZL1s, Corvette Z06 Z07s and ZR1s and Zoras.

GMC Hummer with Freedom Mode.

Cadillac with Blackwing Vs   

Honda with Type R and Type S Civics and NSXs.  

 

I dunno what you wanna say. But go on and say it.   If you are peeved that the majority of people buy appliance CUVs, and GM caters to that...  At least look at what GM is and HAS given us to appreciate the cray cray.

If you bought some of that GM cray cray in the past, GREAT!  And BE pissed that society in general has waned of the cray cray.

But if you havent bought the cray cray the last 5-10-15 years, why are you even pissed to begin with???

Be GLAD that there is STILL some craziness left for us either to buy or drool.  Including a Plaid Model S from Tesla.  

 

[riviera74]

I have no anger about this issue at all.  I just wanted to know if selling these high-performance vehicles are bringing in more customers who end up buying a CUV instead of a Camaro or a Mustang.  Thanks.

[balthazar]

^ I doubt that info has been tabulated, as it would be so amorphous.

The only place I believe there'd be a tangible 'halo effect' is within a model line; a 1LE Camaro selling V6 Camaros, for example. 

[ccap41]

I would think just being able to throw, say, a Ford GT on an advertisement for Ford or an NSX on an Acura billboard would be beneficial. I also think it's kind of impossible to get an accurate number on how many people see those signs then check out the rest of the companies' lineups but I would think they'd help a bit. 

[David]

No matter how anyone feels about Tesla, Mercedes, Porsche, Chevrolet, everyone has to respect numbers and currently Tesla is putting the Germans on notice that they just took the crown.

Elon Musk Claims Tesla Model S Plaid Set A Nurburgring Lap Record (thedrive.com)

Tesla Model S Plaid claims Nurburgring electric lap – UPDATE: Video | Drive

Tesla Model S Plaid Claims Nürburgring EV Record With 7:35 Lap

 

 

 

 

[ccap41]

What else runs 7 minutes and 30-ish seconds? I don't know actually how quick or not quick that is.

[Robert Hall]

23 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What else runs 7 minutes and 30-ish seconds? I don't know actually how quick or not quick that is.

It's in the ballpark of the fastest FWD 'ring times from a few years ago.  Definitely fast.

2015 Golf GTI  7:47:19

2015 Honda Civic Type R  7:50:63

By comparison, some sports cars:

Porsche 911 GT2 RS  6:43.30

Lambo Aventador SVJ 6:44:97

Mercedes AMG GT Black Series 6:44:97

 

The record time, for a race car is 

Porsche 919 Hybrid Evo : 5:19:545

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Robert Hall

[David]

Tesla seems to be playing their normal must generate excitement now that I have confirmed we are not going to deliver for a couple years the Cyber Truck, So I guess we will leak a inside video of the Texas GigaFactory.

Video

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2021/09/Image-from-iOS.mp4

Story

Leaked video from Tesla Gigafactory Texas shows tons of megacasts ahead of production - Electrek

Tesla has figured out how to get around the Conservative Ban on Direct Auto Sales by an auto company. First Tesla store on Tribal Land which is fully embracing Tesla and how they sell.

Tesla finds loophole to New Mexico's dumb ban by launching on tribal land - Electrek

 

This is Tesla's biggest problem:

QUOTE

 I don’t want one at all. Partly because I feel certain that the weird gear selection situation and gimmicky yoke steering wheel would infuriate me on a daily basis, but mostly because, parked next to the Audi or the Porsche, the Model S would look and feel distinctly cheap both inside and out. Which is not what you want when you spend an imaginary £140k on a posh car.

Gotta say that the guy is not wrong or write, but as a personal choice, he does nail the important parts that Tesla is still missing.

Audi RS e-tron GT review: Time to cancel your Taycan/Model S reservation? [Video] (electrek.co)

Audi RS E-TRON GT sedan is light years better looking than a Tesla S to my eyes.

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

What else runs 7 minutes and 30-ish seconds? I don't know actually how quick or not quick that is.

The new base model Vette runs it in 7:29. 7:30 for a top of the line Tesla is embarrassing honestly. At least they have they nice 0-60 time lol.

4 hours ago, David said:

No matter how anyone feels about Tesla, Mercedes, Porsche, Chevrolet, everyone has to respect numbers and currently Tesla is putting the Germans on notice that they just took the crown.

Elon Musk Claims Tesla Model S Plaid Set A Nurburgring Lap Record (thedrive.com)

Tesla Model S Plaid claims Nurburgring electric lap – UPDATE: Video | Drive

Tesla Model S Plaid Claims Nürburgring EV Record With 7:35 Lap

 

 

 

 

That would be a record for EVs only, for the record. Still slower than dozens of others (and sometimes cheaper) cars.

[David]

6 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The new base model Vette runs it in 7:29. 7:30 for a top of the line Tesla is embarrassing honestly. At least they have they nice 0-60 time lol.

That would be a record for EVs only, for the record. Still slower than dozens of others (and sometimes cheaper) cars.

Yes, EV only, but where is Mercedes? Porsche and Audi at least have been challenging Tesla, but sad that BMW and Mercedes have not. 

[ccap41]

18 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The new base model Vette runs it in 7:29. 7:30 for a top of the line Tesla is embarrassing honestly. At least they have they nice 0-60 time lol.

Impressive, imo, for a four door sedan and thank you for the perspective. 

[surreal1272]

37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Impressive, imo, for a four door sedan and thank you for the perspective. 

It being a four door isn’t what makes it impressive. It weighing almost 5000 lbs does IMO but still surprised it couldn’t do it faster than that. Like you said though, perspective. 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, David said:

Tesla has figured out how to get around the Conservative Ban on Direct Auto Sales by an auto company. First Tesla store on Tribal Land

What's this referring to?

[quote]now car dealerships are using those old laws to prevent automakers who never had deals with third-party franchise dealers, like Tesla, from selling their vehicles to the public[/quote]

Existing dealerships have no power or authority to prevent anything. State officials disallowing Tesla to sell directly are merely enforcing existing law. Perhaps Tesla needs some lobbyists- Big Gov't seems to respond, Pavlovian-esque, to lobbyists...

BTW- I know GM had company stores (a handful) as recently as 1970.

[oldshurst442]

Not saying anything about nothing....

But just wanted to point out that "as recently as 1970" also means half a century ago. 

Seeing as GM was formed in 1908, in 1970 that would make GM 62 years old at that time.  1970 to today is 52 years.  Not quite at the middle of GM's history, but almost.  

Just sayin' that I kinda understand that 1970 doesnt seem like a long time ago because we grew up during that time, but it IS a long time ago.  

 

 

 

 

 

[balthazar]

^ You're NOT WRONG! 😆 and 😭

[David]

Wonder if Tesla is shooting themselves in the foot. Seems to get your Tesla 3 faster you can take a hit to range by accepting LFP over NCA batteries. Tesla says it is only a 10 miles of range reduction, but Tesla has stretched and said many false things before to get a product out the door.

Charged EVs | Tesla buyers offered a choice between LFP or NCA battery packs - Charged EVs

[David]

Tesla has 5 lower prices EVs that are competing, be interesting to see how they do next year.

 

Affordable, all-electric: The 5 lowest-priced new EVs in the US (greencarreports.com)

[balthazar]

^ IMO, Bolt is by far the best looker of the bunch. Nothing wrong with the mini but I'm bored to tears looking at them after (is it 20 years yet?). Rest are too gruesome to put in the driveway.

[Robert Hall]

Bolt still looks like a potato.  Leaf is about as bad.  Kona isn’t bad, the Mini familiar. 

[ccap41]

20 hours ago, David said:

Wonder if Tesla is shooting themselves in the foot. Seems to get your Tesla 3 faster you can take a hit to range by accepting LFP over NCA batteries. Tesla says it is only a 10 miles of range reduction, but Tesla has stretched and said many false things before to get a product out the door.

Charged EVs | Tesla buyers offered a choice between LFP or NCA battery packs - Charged EVs

"less range" but you can recharge to 100% so you're actually getting more range on a regular basis, compared to charging to 80%, as suggested by Tesla. 

[David]

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

"less range" but you can recharge to 100% so you're actually getting more range on a regular basis, compared to charging to 80%, as suggested by Tesla. 

Valid point, but I wonder how many would read the details like you or me on this. It will be interesting to see how this goes for Tesla.

[ccap41]

30 minutes ago, David said:

Valid point, but I wonder how many would read the details like you or me on this. It will be interesting to see how this goes for Tesla.

Personally, I would prefer the LFP battery over the NCA battery. Quicker charge times and the ability to use the full battery capacity, SOLD. 

[riviera74]

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Personally, I would prefer the LFP battery over the NCA battery. Quicker charge times and the ability to use the full battery capacity, SOLD. 

What are the differences between LFP and NCA batteries?

[David]

10 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

What are the differences between LFP and NCA batteries?

LFP cells tend to be cheaper, and contain no nickel or cobalt, but their energy density is lower. Conventional wisdom is that this trade-off makes LFP less suitable for high-end EVs, which need to deliver performance and range, but a good choice for lower-priced models.

LFP can charge to 100% faster and do not need the 10 to 20% space for optimum use compared to the NCA batteries.

Will be interesting to see where this goes as we see more and more batteries, especially solid state come to market and different designs with some using sulfur and other materials that allow faster charging and higher temps without the cell loss of current NCA batteries.

[balthazar]

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, riviera74 said:

What are the differences between LFP and NCA batteries?

There are quite a lot of differences and I found this online as it's more thorough than I could be so here's this.

https://poworks.com/a-comparison-of-nmc-nca-lithium-ion-battery-and-lfp-battery#:~:text=The LFP lithium battery is,the market for varied applications.

"Energy density----Upon current technology, the energy density of commercial single cell NMC lithium battery is around 200Wh/kg, and NCA battery may get more than 300Wh/kg soon; while energy density of LFP lithium battery is basically hovering around 100~110Wh/kg, some may get 130~190Wh/kg, but it is very difficult for it to exceed 200Wh/kg. NCA/NMC battery is applied mostly in cars which consume less power and in favor of fast speed and long range. Theoretically, cars using NCA lithium batteries can run farther than those using same number of LFP batteries; and LFP vehicles are preferably chosen to be city buses at present, because the range of them is not long, and they can be charged within a short distance in cities, where a lot of charging piles can be easily built.

Space occupation----Choose BYD for buses and Tesla for cars. Benefited from higher energy density, a single NMC/NCA battery cell can provide twice as much space as an LFP battery, which is very important for cars with limited space. So we can see it in the commercial market, Tesla focus on NMC/NCA battery, and BYD produces LFP battery. So there is a saying in China's EV market, "Choose BYD for buses and Tesla for cars". While this year in March 2020, BYD announced their new LFP battery pack saving 50% space of their previous pack, and got positive sales with their Han EV sedan installed with the Blade Battery. At the same time, Tesla unveiled their new model powered by LFP battery from CATL as well.

Safety----Most important of all, the reason for choosing LFP battery for city buses is the essential concern of safety. There have been many fire accidents with Tesla cars from consumers since Tesla Model S was brought to market, although direct reason of fire may differ. One reason is that Tesla's battery pack is composed of more than 7,000 units of Panasonic / Tesla NCA lithium battery. If these units or the entire battery pack has an internal short circuit, they may generate open flames even big fire, especially in car crash; thankfully it is improving. While LFP material will much less likely burn encountering a short circuit, and its high temperature resistance is much better than that of NCA/NMC lithium battery.

Low-temperature & high-temperature resistance----The lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery has better performance for its high temperature resistance, while NCA/NMC is better for its low temperature resistance. Let me introduce one example. At a temperature of -20℃, the NMC lithium battery can release 70.14% of its capacity; while the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery can only release 54.94%. The discharge voltage plateau of NMC lithium battery is far higher, and it starts earlier than that of the LFP battery at low temperature. Therefore, NMC battery is a better choice for applications at low temperature.

Charging efficiency----The charging efficiency of NMC/NCA lithium battery is higher than that of LFP battery. Lithium battery charging adopts current-control and voltage-control method. That is, constant current charging is applied first, when the current and charging efficiency are comparatively high. After the lithium battery reaches certain voltage, the recharger switches to the second stage of constant voltage charging, at this period the current and charging efficiency are low. To measure the charging efficiency of a lithium battery, we use a ratio between the constant-current charging capacity and the total battery capacity, called “the constant-current ratio”. The experimental data on the constant-current ratio shows that there is little difference between NMC/NCA and LFP batteries charging them at a temperature lower than 10℃, but it's quite different at a temperature higher than that. Here is an example, when we charge them at 20℃, the constant-current ratio of NMC lithium battery is 52.75%, which is five times that of the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery (10.08 %).

Cycle life----The cycle life of lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery is better than NMC/NCA lithium battery. The theoretical life of NMC lithium battery is 2000 cycles, but its capacity fades to 60% when it runs 1000 cycles; even the best-known Tesla NCA battery can only maintain 70% of its capacity after 3000 cycles, while the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery will remain 80% after 3000 cycles. "

[David]

Seems based on this write up, that Consumer Reports is NO FAN of the Tesla Yoke Steering wheel as they feel there are many safety concerns compared to a traditional circular steering wheel.

Gotta say this can come back to bite Tesla in the butt again.

Tesla Model S steering yoke is a pain and possible safety concern, says Consumer Reports (greencarreports.com)

[Robert Hall]

I'm surprised there isn't a regulation against such a type of steering wheel.  Seems like it would be awkward in any thing other than the slightest turns..

[riviera74]

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

I'm surprised there isn't a regulation against such a type of steering wheel.  Seems like it would be awkward in any thing other than the slightest turns..

I doubt that Tesla yoke makes it to production.

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

I doubt that Tesla yoke makes it to production.

It has, unfortunately.

The genius that is Elon Musk.  

Not to take this into a personal direction (against Musk and his family's retarded parenting) (but PHOQUE IT!)  but their child's name is a bunch of random letters and symbols, and his girlfriend, the mother of his child, has a dislike for their baby to call her mom. The child calls his mother by her first name...

With where his mind is at right now,  you could see as to why genius Musk went with a yoke for a steering wheel.

There are at least 3 reasons in my paragraph there as to why I will NEVER buy a Tesla vehicle regardless if Tesla EVs are STILL the benchmark. 

 

 

[David]

21 hours ago, riviera74 said:

I doubt that Tesla yoke makes it to production.

Sadly yes, the Yoke ships on all Tesla S Plaid cars and Musk has stated it will go on the Tesla X update that is coming. Yet so many problems for people trying to use it, I see class action law suite coming for Tesla.

[balthazar]

It's going to be one of the most striking deal-breakers for consumers... ever.
There's GOING to be a sales hit on those models...

Edited September 19, 2021 by balthazar

[David]

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It's going to be one of the most striking deal-breakers for consumers... ever.
There's GOING to be a sales hit on those models...

Just double checked and even in the base long range model, you have no choice but to have to have a Yoke Steering wheel.

[riviera74]

Who thought that this yoke would make a good steering wheel?  It belongs on an aircraft, not a car.  Bring on NHTSA and the lawsuits.

[David]

Seems that Tesla is not honoring their 8yr power train warranty on first gen Tesla S for water intrusion into the motors from driving in the rain.

Beware: Older Tesla Model S Motor Might Fail If Driven In Rain (insideevs.com)

Forgot how ugly I found the first generation Tesla S

Interesting story on the EQS matching the Tesla S in Range but cheaper than the Lucid Air which is the most expensive Luxury sedan now it would seem.

Mercedes EQS Vs Tesla Model S Vs Lucid Air: Compared (insideevs.com)

Great charts in the above story matching these 3 cars.

EQS is 1/3rd more expensive than the Tesla but slower due to considerable less power, but has a nicer interior.

EQS is less expensive by about 1/3rd compared to Lucid air and both have a Luxury interior, but EQS fails like it did against Tesla with a much weaker power train, performance and handling again.

Looks being a personal choice among the three so they seemed to stay away from the style question.

[Robert Hall]

The front of the early Model S'es kind of looked Jagwaaarish to me...I like the older front more than the blank fronts they have today. 

[David]

52 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The front of the early Model S'es kind of looked Jagwaaarish to me...I like the older front more than the blank fronts they have today. 

Thinking on this, your right, the current style is just BLAH compared to this fake grill on the front end that at least gives it a style weather you like it or not. I think that is why I like the e-Tron sedan more than Tesla

[David]

This so called Tesla Insurance button alone even if I could fit into a Tesla would keep me from ever buying it. Talk about slow boat to hell control, why drive let alone own an auto if you want the company to control everything for you and you do not want to drive with responsibility.

Slow Teslas everywhere: 24 hours into ‘the FSD button’, what is your Safety Score (Beta)? (electrek.co)

[David]

Seems no matter what Musk says about California, he cannot get away from it as Tesla previous unannounced Mega Factory has broken ground and this plant specifically will produce the Mega-Battery packs for the Utilities. No word if they will move the Mega-packs used by the Home storage systems with the solar roof system to be made in California as currently they are built in Sparks Nevada.

Tesla's battery-manufacturing 'Megafactory' breaks ground in California (autoblog.com)

[David]

Interesting read about a Tesla Bricking itself and not able to move at all. Seems if a power issue happens on your Tesla, it locks up and there is no ability to go into Neutral to roll to the side of the road, just lock up and stop where you are till it can be dragged to a Tesla repair facility, not even a limp home mode like current ICE auto's have.

A Tesla Bricking Itself On The Highway Shows EVs Have A N Issue (jalopnik.com)

[David]

Interesting that rather than focus on building better products and delivering to the market products customers want they have resorted to suing and here we have Tesla expanding their lawsuit to now cover battery packs that Rivian is supposedly stealing for use in their own auto.

Tesla claims Rivian is stealing ‘trade secrets’ about its ‘next-gen battery’ in expanding lawsuit (electrek.co)

Original lawsuit was very vague that Tesla filed in 2020 about two employees that went to work for Rivian. Head of recruitment and head of their SuperCharger division. Rivian has since announced they will build out their own charging network around the world starting with North America first.

Now Tesla has added 5 more people to the lawsuit that is filled in California and specifically stated that these individuals took trade secretes about their next-gen batteries that are coming.

Honestly, Maybe Musk should be focused on Tesla rather than trying to move to Mars and set himself up as it's ruler.

[David]

Seems Tesla is back at it in raising prices. Seems Musk saying he would bring a cheap EV to the masses is MIA!

The Tesla Model 3 and Model Y just got more expensive overnight thanks to price hike (msn.com)

Tesla's pricing updates pushed the cost of a Model 3 Standard Range Plus to $41,990 and the price of the Model 3 Performance to $57,990. 

Pricing for the Model 3 Long Range AWD stayed flat at $49,990. Similarly, the cheapest Model Y is now $2,000 more expensive and the performance model got a $1,000 bump.

[David]

Tesla says it is opening up it's Supercharger network to all other EVs globally, but starting with the Netherlands in Europe first.

Here Tesla has added the CCS plugs to 10 of their charging units at their first station and it comes with a bunch of Gotcha's.

Non-Tesla EVs charging at Superchargers: 10-station pilot in the Netherlands tests how it might work (greencarreports.com)

Charged EVs | Tesla opens its first Superchargers to drivers of other EVs - Charged EVs

1. You have to download and install and create an account on the Tesla App.
2. You get secondary access to the chargers behind Tesla Auto's.
3. You pay a fluctuating price based on the station your at and the electrical rates in that area plus a premium charge.
4. If your auto does not have the ability to charge at the maximum fast charge rate, you have to pay an additional charge for slow charging.
5. Idle fees will be charged if you are connected to a charger and not charging. This is a new fee for Tesla users too and is pissing off older customers who say they were never told they could not take a parking spot, charge and go to shop or work and come back when ever they wanted. Now they are being charged a premium price for parking.
6. You might need an extension cable if your charge port is not in the rear of the auto as Tesla cables are short and those with charging ports in other places might not be reachable to the required back in parking for charging that Tesla requires.

Some interesting details that makes one wonder just what Musk is thinking and yet he thinks everyone will want to use his stations and has now posted on his social feed that Tesla stations will triple in numbers globally in two years.

[riviera74]

40 minutes ago, David said:

Tesla says it is opening up it's Supercharger network to all other EVs globally, but starting with the Netherlands in Europe first.

Here Tesla has added the CCS plugs to 10 of their charging units at their first station and it comes with a bunch of Gotcha's.

Non-Tesla EVs charging at Superchargers: 10-station pilot in the Netherlands tests how it might work (greencarreports.com)

Charged EVs | Tesla opens its first Superchargers to drivers of other EVs - Charged EVs

1. You have to download and install and create an account on the Tesla App.
2. You get secondary access to the chargers behind Tesla Auto's.
3. You pay a fluctuating price based on the station your at and the electrical rates in that area plus a premium charge.
4. If your auto does not have the ability to charge at the maximum fast charge rate, you have to pay an additional charge for slow charging.
5. Idle fees will be charged if you are connected to a charger and not charging. This is a new fee for Tesla users too and is pissing off older customers who say they were never told they could not take a parking spot, charge and go to shop or work and come back when ever they wanted. Now they are being charged a premium price for parking.
6. You might need an extension cable if your charge port is not in the rear of the auto as Tesla cables are short and those with charging ports in other places might not be reachable to the required back in parking for charging that Tesla requires.

Some interesting details that makes one wonder just what Musk is thinking and yet he thinks everyone will want to use his stations and has now posted on his social feed that Tesla stations will triple in numbers globally in two years.

The goals sound rather ambitious.  Not sure if this will succeed.  Time will tell.

[Robert Hall]

Reality is complex.  It will be interesting to see how the automotive market evolves over the next 10-20 years.

[David]

Interesting observation as I see more and more new Tesla auto's that have defects right off the line like this model 3 with a failed rear left tail light and moisture in the lens.

With quality like this, competition can easily beat Tesla.

[riviera74]

14 hours ago, David said:

Interesting observation as I see more and more new Tesla auto's that have defects right off the line like this model 3 with a failed rear left tail light and moisture in the lens.

With quality like this, competition can easily beat Tesla.

And just think: so many people complain about quality in GM cars. . . . Tesla needs TQM more than GM does.

[David]

5 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

And just think: so many people complain about quality in GM cars. . . . Tesla needs TQM more than GM does.

With all the Drizzle and lately the Atmospheric rainstorms, water is a big issue here and having leaks like I am seeing on more and more Tesla Auto's does not give me that warm fuzzy sense of quality or Luxury.

At this point I would take a Ford or GM over Tesla any day.