Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Yes you can get a Mercedes for $45,000, you can also get 5 different ones for over $145,000, not sure why it matters.

I dont know?

Why DOES it matter?

All I know is that Mercedes' volume in North America is about a third BELOW 50 thousand dollars...

But...more importantly...

Why is it that YOU dont EVER want to admit to it?

Why does it BOTHER YOU that Mercedes' volume, a third of it...is BELOW 50 thousand dollars?

You keep on deflecting that fact...

Is it because YOU have bought into the bullshyte that Mercedes is luxury and faced with THAT fact that you want to deny that Mercedes is just as a ho-hum brand as, lets say...Cadillac?   

Seeing as you hate Cadillac so much you try to discredit Cadillac at every chance you get...

Dude...

100 000 plus people per year...every year... buy/lease Mercedes cars LESS than 50 000 US dollars.

THAT is A LOT of NON-LUXURY Mercedes cars being bought in the US.

In Europe?  A HELLUVA LOT MORE than that as in Europe, Mercedes, since the end of WW2 has been an automaker catering to the AVERAGE EUROPEAN...

Point being...

YOU dont want to admit that Mercedes is not the luxury automaker YOU so wish it to be... 

Its very ho-hum...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a37444029/2021-maserati-ghibli-trofeo-is-not-german-in-every-way-it-should-be/

 

Quote

Remember, the low-spec E-Class is used as a taxi in Germany. BMW 5-Series are cop cars. The Ghibli is not a cab.

 

 

Brand new EV concept...

A MAYBACH non-the-less.  

 

VERY HO-HUM...

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln has no credibility now either

Why is that Mercedes decided to copy a Lincoln from a decade ago though?

And made it  a top spec super uber luxury?

[surreal1272]

28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln has no credibility now either, not much has changed.

They don’t have YOUR credibility and clearly you don’t count since you have made it abundantly clear that it’s German or nothing even when the German garbage. 

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Yes you can get a Mercedes for $45,000, you can also get 5 different ones for over $145,000, not sure why it matters.

It clearly matters to you because you have repeatedly touted their high ATPs even when it’s not, relative to the competition. Just skip the part where the $145K models represent probably less than 1% of their overall sales. It CLEARLY matters to you. Stop pretending otherwise. 

[balthazar]

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln has no credibility now either, not much has changed.

Yeah; that's not true.
Their SUVs get very good reviews, and are quite competitive. Who do you think mercedes benchmarked when it decided to build a full-size SUV?

[oldshurst442]

There is even a slight similarity with Cadillac's mags for 1994 for phoques sake!!!

 

from 1999

 

 

[smk4565]

34 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Why does it BOTHER YOU that Mercedes' volume, a third of it...is BELOW 50 thousand dollars?

 

 

Brand new EV concept...

A MAYBACH non-the-less.  

 

 

I am actually glad that 1/3 of Mercedes are under $50k, because that takes sales away from Acura, Volvo, Lincoln, Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti, etc.  The A-class, CLA, GLA, GLB (aside from being needed in China and Europe with displacement tax and CO2 regs) in the USA take away sales from Volvo XC40/XC60 and S60, Acura RDX/TSX, Cadillac CT4/CT5, XT4, Lexus NX/UX, etc.  No reason to let those brands take that volume when Mercedes can take it. 

And people will pay double the price for that Maybach than they could get a Navigator or Escalade for.  Shouldn't Lincoln, Volvo, Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Tesla and Jaguar all wonder why no one will pay $200k for one of their cars?  Zero of those brands are on par with Mercedes until they have a $200,000 car.  

[oldshurst442]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I am actually glad that 1/3 of Mercedes are under $50k, because that takes sales away from Acura, Volvo, Lincoln, Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti, etc.

You got no analysis of that.

Its only your head canon that alllows you to think this way.

Because you are a fanboy.

But reality is, and YOU deny it, that GMC sells MORE luxury cars 50 000 dollars and more than Mercedes does.

Now...in your head, its good that Mercedes "steals" from Volvo, Acura, Lincoln, Lexus Cadillac etc...

But  reality is that GMC MIGHT be replacing Mercedes in the 50 000-100 000 dollar price range BECAUSE Mercedes decided to go DOWNmarket.  THAT move OPENED up a market for GMC and their Denali, All Terrain X packages, Kodiak and now Hummer trims... 

Its all how you wanna see things...

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

31 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Yeah; that's not true.
Their SUVs get very good reviews, and are quite competitive. Who do you think mercedes benchmarked when it decided to build a full-size SUV?

Competitive?  Compared to who and who is buying them?  

I'll just pick the Aviator as an example, since that is thought to be Lincoln's best SUV and compare to others on first half of 2021 sales:

Aviator: 11,856

Acura MDX: 36,791

Audi Q7: 17,705

BMW X5: 29,244 (+ X6: 4,612)

Cadillac XT6: 13,141

Infniti QX60: 4,306

Lexus GX: 15,406

Mercedes GLE: 35,705

Volvo XC90: 19,981

 

Infiniti is a mess, throw them out and Lincoln gets beat by everyone else in that segment, losing to a glossed over GMC Acadia that Cadillac is selling, the glossed over Honda Pilot that Acura is selling, a 13 year old badge job 4Runner that Lexus is selling.  Lincoln getting beat 3-1 by Mercedes, BMW and Acura.   So either the Aviator is a bad product, or the Lincoln brand image is so lousy that even when they build a good product people ignore it and buy one of the others.

 

[smk4565]

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You got no analysis of that.

Its only your head canon that alllows you to think this way.

Because you are a fanboy.

But reality is, and YOU deny it, that GMC sells MORE luxury cars 50 000 dollars and more than Mercedes does.

Now...in your head, its good that Mercedes "steals" from Volvo, Acura, Lincoln, Lexus Cadillac etc...

But  reality is that GMC MIGHT be replacing Mercedes in the 50 000-100 000 dollar price range BECAUSE Mercedes decided to go DOWNmarket.  THAT move OPENED up a market for GMC and their Denali, All Terrain X packages, Kodiak and now Hummer trims... 

Its all how you wanna see things...

 

Mercedes hasn't gone down market.  The CLA has the same price structure as the Cadillac CT5, the most expensive Cadillac sedan.  The S-class just got a $15,000 price hike this year.  

From Daimler's July 2021 press release:

July 06, 2021 - Mercedes-Benz Cars delivered 1,182,724 passenger cars (+25.1%) to customers worldwide in the first half of 2021.

 

No one is selling more expensive cars than Mercedes is.  Even if you throw away the lower half of their sales, they would outsell GMC and Cadillac combined.  Still waiting on that $200,000 GMC.   Mercedes can get $90k for a vehicle the size of a Terrain, not sure why GMC can't.

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes hasn't gone down market.  The CLA has the same price structure as the Cadillac CT5, the most expensive Cadillac sedan.  The S-class just got a $15,000 price hike this year.  

From Daimler's July 2021 press release:

July 06, 2021 - Mercedes-Benz Cars delivered 1,182,724 passenger cars (+25.1%) to customers worldwide in the first half of 2021.

 

No one is selling more expensive cars than Mercedes is.  Even if you throw away the lower half of their sales, they would outsell GMC and Cadillac combined.  Still waiting on that $200,000 GMC.   Mercedes can get $90k for a vehicle the size of a Terrain, not sure why GMC can't.

 

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/global/2020-full-year-global-mercedes-benz-and-smart-sales-worldwide/

 

2020 (Full Year) Global: Mercedes-Benz and Smart Sales Worldwide

January 8, 2021 in Brands, Global

In 2020, global Mercedes-Benz and Smart car sales were lower in most regions and countries worldwide but up in China. GLC was the top-selling model.

Mercedes-Benz S-Class © Daimler AG

In full-year 2020, Mercedes-Benz delivered 2,164,187 cars worldwide (-7.5%) but claimed to have maintained its leading global position compared with its core competitors. Overall, the largest markets for Mercedes-Benz were China, Germany, and the USA, followed by Great Britain and South Korea. The GLC was the top-selling Mercedes-Benz model worldwide. Electrified car sales (xEV in Mercedes speak) more than doubled to over 160,000 plug-in hybrids and all-electric vehicles worldwide.

Mercedes-Benz Global Sales by Brands and Division in 2020

In full-year 2020, Daimler sold the following Mercedes-Benz branded cars, Smart brand and commercial vans worldwide:

	Jan. – Dec. 2020	Change in %
Mercedes-Benz*	2,164,187	-7.5
smart	38,391	-67.1
Mercedes-Benz Cars	2,202,578	-10.3
Mercedes-Benz Vans (commercial models)	325,771	-8.9
Mercedes-Benz Cars & Vans	2,528,349

*Including the V-Class and the X-Class

Mercedes-Benz Cars Sales by Region and Country in 2020

Mercedes-Benz branded car sales in major regions and countries in the world were as follows in 2020:

	Jan. – Dec. 2020	Change in %
Europe	784,183	-16.4
– thereof Germany	286,108	-10.1
Asia-Pacific	1,024,315	4.7
– thereof China	774,382	11.7
North America	317,592	-14.7
– thereof USA	274,916	-13

Mercedes-Benz benefited from the ongoing recovery in many markets in the second half of 2020:

1,024,315 units were sold in the Asia-Pacific region (4.7% more than in 2019). The main sales driver was China, with an unprecedented recovery: due to double-digit growth of 11.7%, a new sales record with 774,382 units was achieved making China by far the most important single-country market for Mercedes-Benz cars.

In the Europe region, Mercedes-Benz delivered 784,183 passenger cars in 2020 (-16.4%). In Germany, Mercedes-Benz sold a total of 286,108 cars (‑10.1%), as the second-largest car brand in Germany in 2020.

Sales in the North America region totaled 317,592 units (-14.7%). Mercedes-Benz delivered 274,916 cars in the USA in 2020 (-13.0%).

Overall, the largest markets for Mercedes-Benz were China, Germany, and the USA, followed by Great Britain and South Korea.

Top-Selling Mercedes-Benz Models Worldwide in 2020

In 2020, Mercedes-Benz delivered approximately 691,000 compact cars (A-Class, A-Class Saloon, B-Class, CLA Coupé, CLA Shooting Brake, GLA and GLB) worldwide (+3.6%). Sales of SUVs (GLA, GLB, GLC, GLC Coupé, EQC, GLE, GLE Coupé, GLS and G-Class) were about 885,000 vehicles (+12.9%). The GLE (+32.3%) and GLS (+21.1%) in particular enjoyed high customer demand.

The global best-selling model of Mercedes-Benz in 2020 was the GLC with approximately 320,000 units.

In 2020, the S-Class was again the best-selling luxury sedan worldwide with about 60,000 units (-17.2%). The new S‑Class, presented by Mercedes-Benz in September, met with a very strong positive customer response: More than 40,000 orders have been received worldwide, already exceeding the order intake after the sales start of its predecessor.

The Mercedes-AMG sports and high-performance brand sold 125,129 vehicles worldwide (-5.3%). A new sales record and a growth of 1.5% was achieved in the USA, the brand’s largest market. Furthermore, a new record was also achieved in the important growth market of China (+32.3%). The USA, Germany, China, Japan and Australia were AMG’s largest markets.

A total of 38,391 vehicles of the smart brand were handed over to customers (-67.1%). The largest market for smart was Germany: There, strong demand for all-electric models was significantly boosted by the German government subsidy, which led to doubled electric smart deliveries (+104.9%). 

Mercedes-Benz commercial van sales were down 8.9% despite robust sales during the final quarter of 2020. Globally, 325.771 Sprinter vans, Vitos, Vito Tourers, and Citans were sold in the full year 2020. The launch of the eVito in additional markets and the market launch of the eSprinter more than tripled sales of electric vehicles to almost 6,200 electric vans worldwide.

[balthazar]

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Compared to who and who is buying them?

Guess by that metric, the “glossed over honda pilot” is a better luxury SUV than the MBGLE. Good to know.

Edited September 7, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

Quote

In 2020, Mercedes-Benz delivered approximately 691,000 compact cars (A-Class, A-Class Saloon, B-Class, CLA Coupé, CLA Shooting Brake, GLA and GLB) worldwide

 

In 2020 2 164 187 units

691 000 of those were compact

Now...I aint doing C class and E class, I aint got time for that...  But MOST of those cars are fleet and taxi and low market cars.  

GLC might have been the company's top selling model, but like the E Class, in parts of the world, this model is ALSO sold NOT as a luxury model...

I aint gonna do the math for that either...

Lets NOT forget the Sprinter vans that Mercedes sells to vacation resorts and hotels in France, Greece, Italy, Spain... 

Nice vans. Awesome vans. I fell in love with them in 2018 when I saw them in action in Greece.  But they aint sold as in high price tags and are not sold as luxury either.  Some are. But these are fleet vehicles.   MOST are sold with decent seats and the like, but are NOT luxury rides shuttling tourists around. They are just buses...

I  WONT be far off to say that 60% of those 2 164 187 units  are NON LUXURY!!!   

If you wanna prove ME wrong....YOU do the math and PROVE me wrong. 

But its gonna be tough...when you are already at 30% ONLY with the compacts. 

Add the vans...which are at 325 000. Which says commercial.  Are those the Sprinter fleets?  

Already you are ABOVE the 50% mark...   NOT all are non-luxury. Ill give you that.  But a high percentage is. We are very close to 50% if not AT 50%...   

Go ahead...DO the math...  teach me, but more importantly...TEACH YOURSELF!!!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[surreal1272]

59 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I am actually glad that 1/3 of Mercedes are under $50k

Suuuure you are, now that you realize that they sell in that high of a percentage under $50K. You have fought that notion, tooth and nail for years now but again, you have that bar to move so…

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

No reason to let those brands take that volume when Mercedes can take it. 

So they are, in fact, a volume brand now (yet another notion that you have fought for years)?

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And people will pay double the price for that Maybach

Which shows that people are dumb to buy an overpriced CUV with Lincoln inspired derivative exterior design. Noticed you have no counter for that rather lazy design on such a pricey EV just because it says “Maybach”. Honestly, it is pretty laughable right now. 

[surreal1272]

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

No one is selling more expensive cars than Mercedes is.

Cite your claim. 

[surreal1272]

48 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Competitive?  Compared to who and who is buying them?  

It must truly truly suck to keep going back and forth between sales mattering and sales not mattering. He only said the product was competitive, with no mention of sales figures. 

28 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Guess by that metric, the “glossed over honda pilot” is a better luxury SUV than the MBGLE. Good to know.

A fact that he fails to point out because there is no way an Acura is better than a Mercedes in his fanboy eyes. 

[balthazar]

6 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

A fact that he fails to point out because there is no way an Acura is better than a Mercedes in his fanboy eyes.

An oversight; no doubt he'll correct. #1 sales volume = the absolute best.

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Competitive?  Compared to who and who is buying them?  

I'll just pick the Aviator as an example, since that is thought to be Lincoln's best SUV and compare to others on first half of 2021 sales:

Aviator: 11,856

Acura MDX: 36,791

Audi Q7: 17,705

BMW X5: 29,244 (+ X6: 4,612)

Cadillac XT6: 13,141

Infniti QX60: 4,306

Lexus GX: 15,406

Mercedes GLE: 35,705

Volvo XC90: 19,981

 

Infiniti is a mess, throw them out and Lincoln gets beat by everyone else in that segment, losing to a glossed over GMC Acadia that Cadillac is selling, the glossed over Honda Pilot that Acura is selling, a 13 year old badge job 4Runner that Lexus is selling.  Lincoln getting beat 3-1 by Mercedes, BMW and Acura.   So either the Aviator is a bad product, or the Lincoln brand image is so lousy that even when they build a good product people ignore it and buy one of the others.

 

Am I the only one who wonders why the Acura MDX is the best seller in this segment, followed by the Mercedes Benz GLE of all things?  Is everyone a badge snob ignoring Lincoln and Cadillac, or what?

[balthazar]

^ I don't think anyone really cares how many luxury vehicles sell, other than the corporate beancounters, and eventually collectors if the numbers are especially low.

And smk.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

An oversight; no doubt he'll correct. #1 sales volume = the absolute best.

The GLE is absolutely better than an MDX, but the MDX is $7k cheaper and Acura has 2 SUVs to pick from and Mercedes has 9.  So Mercedes is spreading the the sales around more.  But obviously Acura has a following with the MDX and does well with it.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Am I the only one who wonders why the Acura MDX is the best seller in this segment, followed by the Mercedes Benz GLE of all things?  Is everyone a badge snob ignoring Lincoln and Cadillac, or what?

Only 2 SUVs at Acura, so that helps pump up their numbers I am sure.  The MDX was also up 104% in first half of 2021.   RDX sold 27,690 in first half of 2021.

Lincoln Corsair had 13,507, Nautilis 11,427.  So if you add Lincoln's 3 SUVs = 36,790.  The MDX alone is 36,791.  And I wouldn't say Acura is any gold standard of brand image, so where does that put Lincoln?

If you look at the other guys 3 SUV's that line up with Lincoln and Acura's price range:

BMW  X3, X4, X5, X6 combined = 74,480

Cadillac XT4, XT5, XT6 combined = 40,453.

Lexus  NX, RX, GX combined  =  104,116

Mercedes: GLB, GLC, GLE combined = 83,295

Volvo: XC40, XC60, XC90 combined = 55,439

Infiniti had about 20k sales, they are a mess.  So outside of Infiniti, Lincoln is in the back of the pack again.   I imagine Genesis is low for now, but their SUVs just went on sale this year and they seem to be on the rise.  I don't think it is badge snob, I think reality is people prefer those other brands because their products are better.  And Ford cut sedans to make better SUVs, GM is sort of doing the same, and yet their SUVs are getting beat by the Asians and Europeans.  

[surreal1272]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Only 2 SUVs at Acura

And only ONE midsize CUV which outsells the ONE midsize Mercedes CUV. FFS man. Just stop the damn excuses and accept that Mercedes does not win at everything. It would save a tone of space and waste here. 

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The GLE is absolutely better than an MDX, but the MDX is $7k cheaper and Acura has 2 SUVs to pick from and Mercedes has 9.  So Mercedes is spreading the the sales around more.  But obviously Acura has a following with the MDX and does well with it.

And I quote (from one article).  

“Both luxury midsize SUVs offer great engine choices, awesome AWD configurations, and comfortable rides. The team at KBB favored the 2020 Acura MDX for its standard V6 engine, high reliability and resale value, and its lower price.”

 

But of course the Mercedes fanboy thinks the Mercedes is better. What was that you said earlier about credibility?

[surreal1272]

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Lexus  NX, RX, GX combined  =  104,116

Mercedes: GLB, GLC, GLE combined = 83,295

Guess this also makes Lexus better than Mercedes since, once again, you have decided that volume matters. 
 

Just a damn joke at this point. 
 

Back to how this affects Tesla…

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Acura has 2 SUVs to pick from and Mercedes has 9.

Oh; no, no, no.
Those other 8 SUVs "don't compete" with the 'glossed-over honda", you have very tight class divisions.
It's MDX vs GLE. CLEARLY the Acura is better than the mercedes... because; sales!

- - - - - 
I see repeated claims that "Tesla has huge name recognition", but of course, so do all the other existing OEMs (up & comers; not so much tho).

Tesla has name recognition not so much because the product is amazing, but because it's a viable BE vehicle. That's like 75% of it's cache'.

What happens when it's just another BE fish in the sea?

[oldshurst442]

 

20 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Oh; no, no, no.
Those other 8 SUVs "don't compete" with the 'glossed-over honda", you have very tight class divisions.
It's MDX vs GLE. CLEARLY the Acura is better than the mercedes... because; sales!

- - - - - 
I see repeated claims that "Tesla has huge name recognition", but of course, so do all the other existing OEMs (up & comers; not so much tho).

Tesla has name recognition not so much because the product is amazing, but because it's a viable BE vehicle. That's like 75% of it's cache'.

What happens when it's just another BE fish in the sea?

That is why their 2nd generation Models of S,X, Y and 3  need to be better in every metric than the 1st gens.

Including design.

Their current corporate design is getting  (all ready is) stale and outdated...

They DO have a rabid fanbase...  

Its as rabid as @smk4565's fanaticism and worship-ness towards Mercedes. If not more!  I am not going to pretend to know the percentage of Tesla's sales are from rabid Tesla fanatics, but it is high.  

I am thinking its high enough that if Tesla manages to outdo themselves if they do actually bring out 2nd gen models, that it wont matter what the rest of the competition does.  Tesla will survive the onslaught and perhaps have even MORE rabid fans by their side.

But that is IF they bring out 2nd generation models to their Model S,X,Y and 3.

If not, the competition will eventually erode away at their market share. 

Mercedes, Cadillac, Porsche, Audi all have their fanbases too.  But BECAUSE Tesla is STILL the benchmark, its up to these brands to prove themselves AGAINST Tesla.

The Mach E... 

BECAUSE the Model Y and Model X are outdated on the outside, and the Mach E is very very comparable with Tesla's tech and performance specs, the Mach E has done very well against the Tesla models in sales.

The Porsche and Audi sedan entrants, dont do so well in sales compared to the Model S  regardless if the Porsche and Audi look one thousand times better than the Model S.   The performance specs lag...

When the competition catches up, and they arent far behind with Tesla now, it will be design that will win out. And Tesla loses there.  Unless Tesla's 2nd gen vehicles stay above their own current models with a fresh, appealing design. 

In Mercedes' case, their EVs were touched by the ugly stick.  And ugly doesnt sell.

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

Tesla is a benchmark in performance & battery range.

That's it.

[oldshurst442]

Yup.

Benchmark in performance and range.  And that would be it.  But that is where we are at with EVs. 

And if Tesla could maintain that benchmark, (not hard to do with Tesla's engineers) and improving their designs to be fresh, they dont have to worry about the competition as much.  (A little harder to do, but same uphill battle as with their competition) 

And, lets say, they even improve their quality issues...   Id say the competition is in trouble.  (This is the one that they are behind the 8 ball in as compared to their competition, but 2 out of 3 aint bad and wont get them into trouble. It hasnt yet either.) 

 

 

 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The American ones are larger sure, but you can't compare a GLS to a Lincoln Aviator or Cadillac XT6 which are much smaller and cheaper.  At least the X7 and GLS cost roughly the same as the big American SUVs.

Not much difference because the Aviator is much wider. If you actually calculate out their volume that the vehicle occupies, based on exterior dimensions, the Aviator is a larger overall vehicle. 

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 

Oh; no, no, no.
Those other 8 SUVs "don't compete" with the 'glossed-over honda", you have very tight class divisions.
It's MDX vs GLE. CLEARLY the Acura is better than the mercedes... because; sales

Exactly my point but beware. More bar moving coming soon 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln has no credibility now either, not much has changed.

This is a pretty ignorant statement, and you know it. 

[ccap41]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Competitive?  Compared to who and who is buying them?  

I'll just pick the Aviator as an example, since that is thought to be Lincoln's best SUV and compare to others on first half of 2021 sales:

Aviator: 11,856

Acura MDX: 36,791

Audi Q7: 17,705

BMW X5: 29,244 (+ X6: 4,612)

Cadillac XT6: 13,141

Infniti QX60: 4,306

Lexus GX: 15,406

Mercedes GLE: 35,705

Volvo XC90: 19,981

 

Infiniti is a mess, throw them out and Lincoln gets beat by everyone else in that segment, losing to a glossed over GMC Acadia that Cadillac is selling, the glossed over Honda Pilot that Acura is selling, a 13 year old badge job 4Runner that Lexus is selling.  Lincoln getting beat 3-1 by Mercedes, BMW and Acura.   So either the Aviator is a bad product, or the Lincoln brand image is so lousy that even when they build a good product people ignore it and buy one of the others.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a32627323/2020-lincoln-aviator-grand-touring-review/

"One year ago, I drove a Lincoln Navigator Black Label. Imposing, smooth, opulent. Part of me thought that Lincoln—of all companies—had built a better luxury vehicle than the Mercedes S-Class. For $30,000 less you could have just as much comfort, more space, and far more approachable technology. But it was rough around the edges, not the all-around stunner that the Mercedes was and is. A couple of years later, though, I'm wondering if Lincoln might just have bested Mercedes, with an even cheaper product.

When the Aviator bowed, I already knew it had a shot at really delivering on what Lincoln promised. Three major issues hold back the Navigator: its body-on-frame construction makes it less of a high-speed, buttoned-down luxury cruiser; the driver-assist tech is a generation behind other luxury flagships; and some details feel a little too close to what you'd find on a Ford. The Aviator, with its unibody architecture, Co-Pilot 360 semi-autonomous driver's aids, and relentless attention to detail, seems to solve all of that.

If the Navigator's biggest problem is that it tries to match, not beat, other luxury flagships, the Aviator's boundless ambition sets a great precedent for the brand. Look at the styling. To my eye, this is the first SUV since 2013 to match the current Range Rover's elegance and athleticism, with even more intricate detailing. The Aviator beat the rest of the luxury crossover field in offering smartphone-as-key capability (Tesla offers it on the Model 3 and promises it on other models "soon"). Its adaptive suspension uses cameras to adjust to the road ahead, tech usually reserved for S-Class-level vehicles. Even the Aviator's door chime is better than the competition's, composed by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra to be delicate, not grating.

 The audio system is best-in-class, handily beating anything BMW, Mercedes, or even Volvo will sell you. (Ultra-high end Meridian gear in top-spec Range Rovers still has the Lincoln beat, but that's damned good company to keep.) The ride is sublime and the cabin is whisper quiet.

 

Oh, that cabin. It is unquestionably one of the best on sale. It's got the stunning wow-factor of a Volvo or Mercedes, but it's far more usable than either. Physical controls are laid out clearly, with an easy and simple touchscreen handling more complicated tasks. The software is a half-step behind the best in the business, but Lincoln is proving that you can make a gorgeous cockpit that's usable and attractive.

Those keeping track of luxury car best practices will recognize that Lincoln has nailed just about every one. The key stuff—the seats, the ride, the interior—was solved in the first generation of new Lincoln products. But as the reborn company matures, the Aviator represents the company paying attention to the details. No longer content to be very good, Lincoln is shooting for best-in-the-business.

Lincoln is building a world-class product, which means it's charging prices in line with other world-class cars. A top-trim Aviator Black Label starts at $77,695. That's deep into Mercedes GLE territory. But that's not a dealbreaker for one simple reason: the Aviator is easily the better car. Just don't get the hybrid."

[ccap41]

12 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Am I the only one who wonders why the Acura MDX is the best seller in this segment, followed by the Mercedes Benz GLE of all things?  Is everyone a badge snob ignoring Lincoln and Cadillac, or what?

IMO, this segment seems more of the "older" generation(50-60 years old) where they grew up with a brand and just stick to it. They grew up with Hondas and now they can afford an Acura. JAPANESE RELIABILITY! GLE? Mercedes has a very good brand image and there are plenty of trim options. "Wow, you drive a Mercedes?!?"

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

Tesla is a benchmark in performance & battery range.

That's it.

Their user interface/apps/charging network are also second to none, at this time. 

[smk4565]

19 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

This is a pretty ignorant statement, and you know it. 

Why aren’t badge snobs buying Lincoln’s?  
 

Everyone likes to say that badge snobs just buy a German without even comparing competition vehicles.  But why isn’t Lincoln the brand badge snobs want?

[smk4565]

19 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a32627323/2020-lincoln-aviator-grand-touring-review/

 

So they like the Aviator, but all the peers sell better.  So either Lincoln didn’t do enough on the Aviator, or there brand image is so bad, that people will buy any of the competitors instead even if the Aviator is a better vehicle.

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So they like the Aviator, but all the peers sell better.  So either Lincoln didn’t do enough on the Aviator, or there brand image is so bad, that people will buy any of the competitors instead even if the Aviator is a better vehicle.

Funny how you don’t use that same excuse regarding the MDX outselling the GLE. Fanboy logic, I guess. 

25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Why aren’t badge snobs buying Lincoln’s?  
 

Everyone likes to say that badge snobs just buy a German without even comparing competition vehicles.  But why isn’t Lincoln the brand badge snobs want?

It’s really simple actually. Lincoln does not market them heavily enough against the foreign competition. It has more to do with that than it does “brand snobbery” (although that is a concern, as your endless slamming of domestics indicates). 

[ccap41]

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Why aren’t badge snobs buying Lincoln’s?  
 

Everyone likes to say that badge snobs just buy a German without even comparing competition vehicles.  But why isn’t Lincoln the brand badge snobs want?

Because they're digging themselves out of the abysmal products they were making for like 30 years, very poorly and cheaply rebadged Fords. 

24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So they like the Aviator, but all the peers sell better.  So either Lincoln didn’t do enough on the Aviator, or there brand image is so bad, that people will buy any of the competitors instead even if the Aviator is a better vehicle.

Because they're digging themselves out of the abysmal products they were making for like 30 years, very poorly and cheaply rebadged Fords.

Lincoln dealerships have also improved as they cannot be in one building with Ford. They are required to have their own stand-alone building so there are also much fewer dealerships than there were only five years ago. 

They were in a hole and are taking the necessary steps to dig themselves out. I haven't read a review of any recent Lincoln(2016-on) that hasn't greatly praised the vehicle. 

[David]

Tesla I see as another Apple. A company that blazed a trail for others to follow, but like all things, other companies learn, and in some cases will surpass the original leader company.

Apple blazed a trail with innovative products, now since Job died, Apple has not really innovated anything. Next generation of chips, higher resolution on a camera is not innovating, just keeping the cash cow alive.

Tesla blazed the trail with electric motors, Batteries and to a certain affect software for BEVs. Now we have a slew of new products coming and out that are already besting Tesla in many ways.

Mach-e @ 70% conquest with what industry reviews state has better fit n finish as well as over all styling which we all know is subjective. EQS, the jelly bean of exterior style with a striking interior that does set a high bar. The starting to ship Rivian R1T that clearly sets a standard for electric pickups in the luxury price range. The soon to start shipping in the new year Ford F-150 Lightning that has clearly set the bar for BEVs as work vehicles as well as personal vehicles. GM with their Hummer by GMC Truck and SUV that ships next year in the true luxury category of truck / suv. The list will go on as we also have the Cadillac LYRIQ CUV that has a striking exterior style and based on current released images, a true luxury interior.

I will not forget Porsche, Audi or Jaguar that have electric sedan / CUV out, but I expect to step up to the next level of luxury competition in the BEV category. 

Over all, Tesla needs to be concerned and as has been stated here, if they do not nail a solid home run with Gen two of the 3, Y, and Gen 3 of S & X will see their market share slowly erode. 

Innovation is going to be key to the next millennium of the auto industry.

[smk4565]

Lincoln is still rebadging Fords, all 4 of their SUVs are exactly that.  They have gotten better at doing it, but it has been the same playbook for 30 years.

 

As far as Tesla goes, the Model Y is roughly same size and price as the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ionic 5.  If you ask a consumer what do they want, a Hyundai, a Kia or a Tesla? I think we know that survey says Tesla.  
 

The Mach-E is also priced like a Model Y, so the eventual Lincoln version will be $10-20k more.  That is a tall mountain to climb to get consumers to pay more for a Lincoln than a competing Tesla.  
 

Tesla is selling a lifestyle, that is what these other people aren’t doing and why something like the VW iD4 was a flop already.

[smk4565]

8 minutes ago, David said:

Tesla I see as another Apple. A company that blazed a trail for others to follow, but like all things, other companies learn, and in some cases will surpass the original leader company.

Apple blazed a trail with innovative products, now since Job died, Apple has not really innovated anything. Next generation of chips, higher resolution on a camera is not innovating, just keeping the cash cow alive.

Tesla blazed the trail with electric motors, Batteries and to a certain affect software for BEVs. Now we have a slew of new products coming and out that are already besting Tesla in many ways.

Mach-e @ 70% conquest with what industry reviews state has better fit n finish as well as over all styling which we all know is subjective. EQS, the jelly bean of exterior style with a striking interior that does set a high bar. The starting to ship Rivian R1T that clearly sets a standard for electric pickups in the luxury price range. The soon to start shipping in the new year Ford F-150 Lightning that has clearly set the bar for BEVs as work vehicles as well as personal vehicles. GM with their Hummer by GMC Truck and SUV that ships next year in the true luxury category of truck / suv. The list will go on as we also have the Cadillac LYRIQ CUV that has a striking exterior style and based on current released images, a true luxury interior.

I will not forget Porsche, Audi or Jaguar that have electric sedan / CUV out, but I expect to step up to the next level of luxury competition in the BEV category. 

Over all, Tesla needs to be concerned and as has been stated here, if they do not nail a solid home run with Gen two of the 3, Y, and Gen 3 of S & X will see their market share slowly erode. 

Innovation is going to be key to the next millennium of the auto industry.

You mention a few products but a few products don’t make a car company.  Like GM needs 12 electric SUVs at minimum, probably more like 15-20.  They need EV sedans, EV pickups and vans.  
 

Question is if GM, Ford, Mercedes or anyone else cancelled all their gas cars, could they survive?

The Mach-e might have a nice conquest rate but Tesla sold 200,000 Model 3/Y in Q2 of 2021 worldwide.  That’s like an F150 sales rate, the Mach-E is no where near that.

[surreal1272]

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln is still rebadging Fords, all 4 of their SUVs are exactly that.  They have gotten better at doing it, but it has been the same playbook for 30 years.

Funny. You’ve never used that same criticism towards Audi and their rebadged VWs. Hell, even the Porsche Cayenne is a rebadged Touareg. 

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

You mention a few products but a few products don’t make a car company.  Like GM needs 12 electric SUVs at minimum, probably more like 15-20.  They need EV sedans, EV pickups and vans.  

You do understand that it also applies to your favorite maker right? Meanwhile, your favorite pushed out a jellybean low demand sedan before they even announced a much higher demand CUV or SUV. 

[David]

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln is still rebadging Fords, all 4 of their SUVs are exactly that.  They have gotten better at doing it, but it has been the same playbook for 30 years.

 

As far as Tesla goes, the Model Y is roughly same size and price as the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ionic 5.  If you ask a consumer what do they want, a Hyundai, a Kia or a Tesla? I think we know that survey says Tesla.  
 

The Mach-E is also priced like a Model Y, so the eventual Lincoln version will be $10-20k more.  That is a tall mountain to climb to get consumers to pay more for a Lincoln than a competing Tesla.  
 

Tesla is selling a lifestyle, that is what these other people aren’t doing and why something like the VW iD4 was a flop already.

Tall Mountain to Climb? That can be said about the Anemic EQS tragic style. Interior while excellent from what we have seen in pictures is still a far cry from selling a complete package, so they have a TALL MOUNTAIN to climb for sales.

If all ICE of Mercedes was stopped today, Mercedes would FAIL as a company trying to survive on their current electric auto's.

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

You mention a few products but a few products don’t make a car company.  Like GM needs 12 electric SUVs at minimum, probably more like 15-20.  They need EV sedans, EV pickups and vans.  
 

Question is if GM, Ford, Mercedes or anyone else cancelled all their gas cars, could they survive?

The Mach-e might have a nice conquest rate but Tesla sold 200,000 Model 3/Y in Q2 of 2021 worldwide.  That’s like an F150 sales rate, the Mach-E is no where near that.

Per tracking service here: Tesla Model Y US car sales figures (carsalesbase.com) Ford Mustang Mach-E US car sales figures (carsalesbase.com)

Lets focus on the US,

Tesla sold 25,000 Model Y in 2020, 76,429 so far in 2021.

Ford sold 3 sold at the end of 2020, 6,767 so far in 2021.

Yes one could say that Tesla is doing a better job than Ford in the US, but then lets look at Europe.

Tesla Model Y European auto sales figures (carsalesbase.com) Ford Mustang Mach-E European sales figures (carsalesbase.com)

Tesla sold 0,000 Model Y in 2020, 331 so far in 2021.

Ford sold 185 Mach-e in 2020, 9,113 in 2021 so far

Clearly Ford is doing a better job than Tesla in Europe.

Let's look at China Tesla Model Y China auto sales figures (carsalesbase.com)

Ford is working through the process to import in US made Mach-e for sale in China, Tesla is fighting them. Why?

Tesla sold 0,000 Model Y in 2020, 56,534 in 2021 so far.

Globally Tesla has sold 133,294 Model Y globally in 2021

Ford has sold 15,880 globally in 2021 so far.

Yes Tesla has been building electric auto's much longer than Ford, yet why is their number not much higher then? Only an 8 times sales rate over Ford when it should easily be in the double digits. As such, YES, TESLA should fear the other OEMs.

[surreal1272]

@smk4565 And just skip the fact that Maybach was just a rebadged S Class. 

[ccap41]

46 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln is still rebadging Fords, all 4 of their SUVs are exactly that.  They have gotten better at doing it, but it has been the same playbook for 30 years.

Obviously, you have not sat in a Ford and then the Lincoln counterpart. 

They used to be tacky badge-jobs. They are completely redone now. 

Aviator & Explorer:

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

So they like the Aviator, but all the peers sell better.  So either Lincoln didn’t do enough on the Aviator, or there brand image is so bad, that people will buy any of the competitors instead even if the Aviator is a better vehicle.

You’ve praised the Alfa stelvio before; if the Lincoln image/product os “so bad”, why does the Aviator outsell the Stelvio 2.5:1?

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565 And just skip the fact that Maybach was just a rebadged S Class. 

After it flopped as a brand.

[surreal1272]

16 minutes ago, balthazar said:

You’ve praised the Alfa stelvio before; if the Lincoln image/product os “so bad”, why does the Aviator outsell the Stelvio 2.5:1?

After it flopped as a brand.

Even when it was a brand it was still a stretched out rebadged S-Class. However, rebadging is only an issue for him when it suits his domestic bashing arguments. 

[David]

Tesla as is all the other auto companies are going to find the need to INNOVATE their BEVs as Ford just completed a major Coup in hiring away one of the most coveted BEV Tech leaders. Doug Field!

Ford poaches Apple's car project chief Doug Field | Reuters

Ford greatly enhances its tech’s appeal | Reuters

Ford poaches top tech executive Doug Field who helped lead Apple's top-secret car project (cnbc.com)

Tesla FAILED to keep the bright mind behind the embedded system that they currently use loosing Doug Field to Apple. Apple has dragged their feet in taking to market their secret BEV project that they still do not acknowledge. Doug wants his projects out for people to use.

As such, Ford WON in poaching him away to lead their 21st Century Embedded system for the BEV portfolio of Ford/Lincoln.

Mercedes watch out as Ford has a BRILLIANT mind behind moving their BEV portfolio forward through the 21st century.

GM will need to step up their innovation game as will all auto companies to compete with Ford.

OUCH, Daimler stock and Tesla stock both down on this news while Ford and GM are both up on the news as this is seen as a very strong positive for US BEV production.

[David]

Seems Tesla looses again now that Musk has told employees Cyber truck production will begin late to end of 2022 with full production starting end of 2023.

"Tesla Loses Big Advantage It Had Over Other Electric Trucks - InsideHook" https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/tesla-cybertruck-loses-advantage-electric-trucks/amp

As they state,  Tesla just lost a big advantage as Rivian, Ford and GM will be out before Tesla even begins truck production.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, David said:

Seems Tesla looses again now that Musk has told employees Cyber truck production will begin late to end of 2022 with full production starting end of 2023.

"Tesla Loses Big Advantage It Had Over Other Electric Trucks - InsideHook" https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/tesla-cybertruck-loses-advantage-electric-trucks/amp

As they state,  Tesla just lost a big advantage as Rivian, Ford and GM will be out before Tesla even begins truck production.

I’ll go one step further on that loss of advantage. From an MT article on the Rivian. 
 

“Once plugged in and chatting over lunch from Holly's kitchen, Rivian's staffers asked us what we thought of the R1T.

"It's annoyingly good," was all we could think to say. No brand-new automaker has any right to build a vehicle this competent right off the bat. And that initial impression held true as the pavement increasingly gave way to gravel, mud, and water crossings the farther west we traveled.”

 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/2022-rivian-r1t-exclusive-drive-review-trans-america-trail-off-road/

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

6 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I’ll go one step further on that loss of advantage. From an MT article on the Rivian. 
 

“Once plugged in and chatting over lunch from Holly's kitchen, Rivian's staffers asked us what we thought of the R1T.

"It's annoyingly good," was all we could think to say. No brand-new automaker has any right to build a vehicle this competent right off the bat. And that initial impression held true as the pavement increasingly gave way to gravel, mud, and water crossings the farther west we traveled.”

 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/2022-rivian-r1t-exclusive-drive-review-trans-america-trail-off-road/

Hahaha, I actually JUST finished reading that. I'm excited for Rivian. 

[David]

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I’ll go one step further on that loss of advantage. From an MT article on the Rivian. 
 

“Once plugged in and chatting over lunch from Holly's kitchen, Rivian's staffers asked us what we thought of the R1T.

"It's annoyingly good," was all we could think to say. No brand-new automaker has any right to build a vehicle this competent right off the bat. And that initial impression held true as the pavement increasingly gave way to gravel, mud, and water crossings the farther west we traveled.”

 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/2022-rivian-r1t-exclusive-drive-review-trans-america-trail-off-road/

Thank you for posting this. I totally agree that RJ has Rivian dialed in to compete and Tesla has lost a HUGE HUGE HUGE chance to dominate in electric trucks. Musk's various distractions will hurt him long term I believe.

I am very excited as the Rivian experience store is just about done in Bellevue and I am excited to actually go there and see how I fit in an R1T.

[David]

Interesting, Edmunds while very impressed with the Tesla S Plaid, does clearly say it is a waste of money unless your a Rabid Tesla fan and badge snob that has to have the top of the line to brag about it. The Value is the Tesla S Long Range version.

 

[David]

Just not Tesla or Mercedes needs to be aware of what the competition is doing, this latest video showing the 2022 Black Label improvements shows Lincoln is out to be a luxury leader and right now, WOW, I like what I am seeing.

Exquisite Craftsmanship: Lincoln Introduces Exclusive Black Label Themes with New 2022 Navigator | Lincoln Media Center

Have to say they have some nice looking updates on their news release. This right now is a very sharp SUV!

Very luxurious interior.