Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[balthazar]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But GMC is supposed to be better than Chevy, not equal to Chevy.  

It is. But they're still competitive and still siblings.
And one can still be better and play in the same price tiers (again: competition).
Why is GMC competing with Chevrolet? Every brand should compete with every other brand, irregardless of the parent company.

Imagine if GM executives had said 'We have the GTO, so it's a 'hard no' to the 442, the GS400 and the SS396."

Again- it comes right back to you contention; more models, more revenue, more profit, right?

Or...... let's have a conversation about cutting MB's SUV line down to a 'more proper' 3 or 4 models.

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

BUMP

Because its relevant not only to Tesla and and if the competition will be able to shut her down and when SMK says that Mercedes is the world's most selling luxury brand...

Like I keep on sayin...

How many of those 324 708 vehicles that Mercedes sold in the US are really above 50 000 US dollars.  Im willing to bet that most of those 324 708 vehicles that Mercedes sold are BELOW 50 thousand and 100%  lease queens to wannabes.  The equivalent of the wannabe Cadillac pimpmobile mafioso of the 1970s and 1980s albeit for Mercedes its more like fake personality yuppies...

 

Personally, I think the number of 50k+ vehicles is llike 60%. They only REALLY have 4 vehicles with average transaction prices under 50k, GLA, GLB, and CLA. Yes, the C Class and GLC start under 50k but you and I both know options inflate these vehicles extremely quick and starting at 42 and 43k, respectively, has them actually selling at 50k and above. 

Well, before I even hit "Submit Reply", I had to look up the numbers and according to the below link, here is the information I found. 

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210108005349/en/Mercedes-Benz-Reports-2020-Sales-of-325915-Vehicles

A Class	15,332
CLA	10,997
GLA	25,348
GLB	23,183
Total	74,860

Using their grand total of 325,915 total vehicle sales, that's 22.96% of vehicles. That ALSO assumes that ZERO of those GLAs and CLAs were AMGs that are certainly over 50k. My opinion, with the facts provided, is the total sales from Mercedes that are under $50,000 is around 20%.

[ccap41]

13 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Escalade EXT was more than a badge job most years.  It came with a bigger motor (6.0L) than the Avalanche (5.3) in the first generation. The second generation got the 6.2 while the Avalanche only got the 5.3 and for a couple years an optional (and very rare) 6.0. The Escalade had AWD instead of 4WD and they got air shocks (air shocks were only an LTZ option on the Avalanche, I have them) In addition to the Escalade dash, the door panels were upgraded as well. 

Good information to know as when I was looking I compared it to the Silverado and not the Avalanche. Thanks ya!

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Personally, I think the number of 50k+ vehicles is llike 60%. They only REALLY have 4 vehicles with average transaction prices under 50k, GLA, GLB, and CLA. Yes, the C Class and GLC start under 50k but you and I both know options inflate these vehicles extremely quick and starting at 42 and 43k, respectively, has them actually selling at 50k and above. 

Well, before I even hit "Submit Reply", I had to look up the numbers and according to the below link, here is the information I found. 

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210108005349/en/Mercedes-Benz-Reports-2020-Sales-of-325915-Vehicles

A Class	15,332
CLA	10,997
GLA	25,348
GLB	23,183
Total	74,860

Using their grand total of 325,915 total vehicle sales, that's 22.96% of vehicles. That ALSO assumes that ZERO of those GLAs and CLAs were AMGs that are certainly over 50k. My opinion, with the facts provided, is the total sales from Mercedes that are under $50,000 is around 20%.

You skipped their van sales, which were a combined 50K units for 2020 and most of those sell under $50K. Also, when 67% of their "sales" are actually leases, I'm not entirely sure the ATP argument even holds water here. Just my opinion.

 

BTW, the GLC starts at $44K.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

17 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You skipped their van sales, which were a combined 50K units for 2020 and most of those sell under $50K. Also, when 67% of their "sales" are actually leases, I'm not entirely sure the ATP argument even holds water here. Just my opinion.

I did think about vans but didn't look up their prices. They do seem like they likely sell in the 40's as well so very good point. 32-43k base msrp depending on the size. I doubl those get upfitted a whole lot from Mercedes themselves. 

Buuuut, the 36k work van(Sprinter - The Metris starts at the 32k) can be built to 63k with just the largest length and height, biggest engine, and highest payload. NO CLUE how many get built to beyond 50k though. I'd lie if I even through out an assumption because these surprisingly jump in price quite a bit with size. If I had to bet, i think I'd say these move off lots in the 45-55k range. 

I'm not getting into leases. I don't 100% understand how those are calculated in "vehicle sales" but I would assume they are "paying" close to MSRP with various "deals" to lower payments and/or down payment but I don't know what the actual transaction price is considered. 

25 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

BTW, the GLC starts at $44K.

Sorry, I was off a grand. 43,200 is what I saw. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Sorry, I was off a grand. 43,200 is what I saw.

5 out of the 11 at this Benz dealership in Durham NC (near me) are all on the lot and priced under $50K

https://www.mercedesbenzofdurham.com/inventory/new/mercedes-benz-north-carolina.htm?campaignid=10679770509&adgroupid=105717417256&creative=452271233504&matchtype=e&network=g&device=c&keyword=mercedes dealer near me&gclid=CjwKCAjwj8eJBhA5EiwAg3z0m3F_VH42OuOzi_zMWMBnbhUllXrJS6gvWyH8y5g4ky1si9zYi35bAxoC--4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&model=GLC

 

 

Just saying that the number is probably closer to 40% than 20%.

Edited September 3, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

40 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

5 out of the 11 at this Benz dealership in Durham NC (near me) are all on the lot and priced under $50K

https://www.mercedesbenzofdurham.com/inventory/new/mercedes-benz-north-carolina.htm?campaignid=10679770509&adgroupid=105717417256&creative=452271233504&matchtype=e&network=g&device=c&keyword=mercedes dealer near me&gclid=CjwKCAjwj8eJBhA5EiwAg3z0m3F_VH42OuOzi_zMWMBnbhUllXrJS6gvWyH8y5g4ky1si9zYi35bAxoC--4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&model=GLC

 

 

Just saying that the number is probably closer to 40% than 20%.

We can meet in the middle assuming we're both missing things and wrong about something and go with 30% 🤣

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

We can meet in the middle assuming we're both missing things and wrong about something and go with 30% 🤣

Fair enough, if you want to do that but I'm going to stick with my 40% mark.

[ccap41]

Eh, fine. We will agree to disagree. 

[oldshurst442]

On 4/4/2020 at 9:26 PM, oldshurst442 said:

Actually...same applies to Mercedes.

How many low level GLAs and CLAs and crappy 4 cylinder C Classes  does Mercedes roll out and favorable priced lease queen E Classes and  GLCs  vis a vis the higher priced ones?

I bet you...Dodge and Ford and GMC and Chevy sell MORE 50 000 dollar price tagged trucks than Mercedes does in that same 50 000 dollar range.

Mercedes has sold 320 000-380 000 units in the US the last 5 years.

The GLC and the C Class are the top cars that sell in the US.

60 000 units per year for the C Class and 70 000 for the GLC

That totals 130 000 units.  About half.

45 000 E classes, 20 000 GLAs, 15 000 CLA.  That is another 70 000 units 

200 000 units so far.

Add another 50 000 GLEs and  another 15 000 S Classes and we are at 265 000. 

The rest comprises of 40 000 vans, 7 000 G Class SUVs, 4 000 GTs,  1 500 SLs, 1 500  SLCs and we are at the 315 000 units level

https://www.daimler.com/investors/reports-news/financial-news/20200104-mbusa-sales-dec.html

Numbers are good enough...

60 000 C Classes...

starts at 42 000

70 000 GLCs

starts at 52 000

I doubt that the GLC goes above 60 000 dollars. Lease queen. 

I doubt the C Class goes above 45 000 dollars. Lease queen also.

That makes an avg trans price of 52 000... for 130 00 units

GLE starts at 55 000

E Class starts at 54 000

avg trans price Id say 60 000 dollars. for another 100 000 cars.  

We bump up that avg trans price  $55 000 for 230 000 units.

CLA and GLA Id say avg trans prices at 45 000.  It wont move the needle as that only makes up for 35 000 units.

Avg trans prices for M-B in the US according to MY logic is 55 000 for a measly 260 000 - 280 000 units...

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/average-new-vehicle-transaction-prices-up-3-5-year-over-year-in-january/

That link says that M-B ATP is at 58 000-59 000 dollars.  Im gonna say that my analysis is accurate because in my analysis I am not including 100 000 dollar S Class sales...even at only 15 000 units...

 

Ford sells 900 000 F150s and its variants

Dodge sells close too 700 000 Rams and its variants. Maybe more now...

GM sells 600 000 Chevy Silverados and another 250 000 Sierras.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10/the-average-pickup-truck-price-is-closing-in-on-50000/

In 2018...GM said that the  ATP on  its trucks in 2018 is closing in on 50 000 dollars...

The Silverado STARTS at 29 000...

GM sells 850 000 trucks...

Without me doing any more math...Im dizzy.... Im going to safely say that yes...Ford, GM, Dodge sell MORE 50 000 dollar trucks than Mercedes does 50 000 dollar vehicles...as I think GM, Ford and Dodge OBLITERATES the 280 000 unit mark with expensive as phoque   Longhorns, King Ranches and Silverado HD/Denalis...  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:16 AM, ccap41 said:

Personally, I think the number of 50k+ vehicles is llike 60%. They only REALLY have 4 vehicles with average transaction prices under 50k, GLA, GLB, and CLA. Yes, the C Class and GLC start under 50k but you and I both know options inflate these vehicles extremely quick and starting at 42 and 43k, respectively, has them actually selling at 50k and above. 

Well, before I even hit "Submit Reply", I had to look up the numbers and according to the below link, here is the information I found. 

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210108005349/en/Mercedes-Benz-Reports-2020-Sales-of-325915-Vehicles

A Class	15,332
CLA	10,997
GLA	25,348
GLB	23,183
Total	74,860

Using their grand total of 325,915 total vehicle sales, that's 22.96% of vehicles. That ALSO assumes that ZERO of those GLAs and CLAs were AMGs that are certainly over 50k. My opinion, with the facts provided, is the total sales from Mercedes that are under $50,000 is around 20%.

Thanks

But I KNEW that already as I had done THAT exercise one year ago...   

The post above this one.  Look at it if you wanna...

 

I had come to a conclusion using MY logic and that AVG transaction prices for Mercedes was at 55 000 dollars.

An actual link states the avg transaction prices to be 58 000- 59 000 thousand dollars with my calculated  break down of 260 000- 280 000 units.

Below 50 thousand is at around 75 000 units. Like what you said. NOT including a handful of C classes and an even less than a handful of GLC CUVs and a bunch of commercial vans.   40 000 vans to be exact.  How many of those vans are less than 50 000 US dollars?   Almost ALL of those.

We will ADD 2000 C Classes to your total with 1000 GLCs and lets say 25 000 Vans.   That would be 28 000 units to the 75 000.  Ill just add 25 thousand JUST to make an easy number. 

100 000 units at or below 50 000 US dollars.

THAT is 32.5%

You split the middle with @surreal1272 by saying 30% which seems reasonable. 

But...he is CORRECT also  in saying that its CLOSER to 40% than it really is to 20%...

 

Below 60 thousand dollars and Mercedes sells 260 000-280 000 units.

Any which way you slice it... 

1. Mercedes does NOT sell THAT many luxury vehicles. It sells AS many as anybody else that sells vehicles at those luxury prices.

2. Mercedes wants to sell MORE low end stuff to beef up their sales portfolio...

They want to go DOWN market...

GM and GMC want to go UPmarket...and GMC is offering higher priced trims and they are HITTING their sales targets...

3. I am not so sure Mercedes is hitting their sales targets DOWN or UP market...

4. Mercedes is NOT all that as to how @smk4565 wants to prep them up and your analysis falls just a tad short... helpful but misleading...with your 20%  

 

Its a good thing that I done THAT exercise just over a year ago...

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

1. Mercedes does NOT sell THAT many luxury vehicles. It sells AS many as anybody else that sells vehicles at those luxury prices.

2. Mercedes wants to sell MORE low end stuff to beef up their sales portfolio...

They want to go DOWN market...

GM and GMC want to go UPmarket...and GMC is offering higher priced trims and they are HITTING their sales targets...

3. I am not so sure Mercedes is hitting their sales targets DOWN or UP market...

4. Mercedes is NOT all that as to how @smk4565 wants to prep them up and your analysis falls just a tad short... helpful but misleading...with your 20%  

 

Its a good thing that I done THAT exercise just over a year ago...

 

 

 

 

Mercedes is the #1 selling luxury car brand in the world, yet "they do not sell that many luxury vehicles" ???

Who is selling more luxury cars than them?  Who has a higher % over $50k, over $100k, or whatever other number you want to pick from.

I don't know that Mercedes "wants" to go down market, I mean a CLA has the same price structure of a Cadillac CT5, it isn't really down market, it is priced like Cadillac most expensive sedan.   Mercedes needs small cars for fuel economy and emissions reasons, they can't just sell V8 AMG's.  Plus they want to have a complete line up of small, medium, large to hit a wide range of buyers, you have to have entry level product to bring people into a brand.  

It seems to be there is nearly $100,000 price difference between the Mercedes full size SUV and the GMC. 

 

Please find me the Lexus or Audi sedan in this price range:

And I would love to see the BMW "Ultimate Driving Machine" rival to this:

And then there is this guy that has 37 exterior color choices 31 interior color choices.  Part of luxury is choice, what does Tesla have, like 4-5 exterior colors and 2 interior colors?  Will the GMC Hummer have 37 color choices?

 

Uh-oh, it is also rather easy for a CLA250 to cost over $50k: 

Edited September 5, 2021 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is the #1 selling luxury car brand in the world, yet "they do not sell that many luxury vehicles" ???

Who is selling more luxury cars than them?  Who has a higher % over $50k, over $100k, or whatever other number you want to pick from.

I don't know that Mercedes "wants" to go down market, I mean a CLA has the same price structure of a Cadillac CT5, it isn't really down market, it is priced like Cadillac most expensive sedan.   Mercedes needs small cars for fuel economy and emissions reasons, they can't just sell V8 AMG's.  Plus they want to have a complete line up of small, medium, large to hit a wide range of buyers, you have to have entry level product to bring people into a brand.  

It seems to be there is nearly $100,000 price difference between the Mercedes full size SUV and the GMC. 

 

Please find me the Lexus or Audi sedan in this price range:

And I would love to see the BMW "Ultimate Driving Machine" rival to this:

And then there is this guy that has 37 exterior color choices 31 interior color choices.  Part of luxury is choice, what does Tesla have, like 4-5 exterior colors and 2 interior colors?  Will the GMC Hummer have 37 color choices?

 

Uh-oh, it is also rather easy for a CLA250 to cost over $50k: 

Just stop. This is yet another broken record post of yours where you completely ignore what was said (by literally everyone else), move the bar, and create another set of rules that reflects your fanboy love. 
 

Example? Yes it’s easy for that FWD CLA to cross $50K ONLINE. However, the fact remains that it STARTS $12K under that and I have shown where there are quite a few sub-$50K cars of several Benz models (not showing some pointless custom online order to juice the price like you just did). The Benz dealership near me only has two CLAs on the lot and they are BOTH $48K and reasonably equipped which is what most folks in that price range look for. Stop acting like Benz did not stoop down to the lower market because they’ve been doing for years unless you want to forget that, not long ago, the CLA was advertised as “starting under $30K” before the A Class replaced it as the cheaper model. Again, you refer to sales breakdown posted the other day before you bring up anything else to the contrary. Wouldn’t want your arms to get tired from more bar moving. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

seems to be there is nearly $100,000 price difference between the Mercedes full size SUV and the GMC.

When you opt for the lowest volume selling Maybach model, then sure, big price difference. But again, that is not even close to their average volume for that model. Meanwhile, I check the local Benz dealership near me versus the nearby GMC. I see similarly priced models on both lots. That is the point you are sorely missing here. Even on the full size GLS, the bulk of models available are closer to the base price than anything else, same as everyone else and most what was available was the same relative price as the Denali model Yukon’s. Meanwhile, the Yukon sells far more than the Benz so there’s that bar for you to move later as well. Mercedes is not unique and they are not the best for it. It’s that simple. 
 

https://www.mbusa.com/en/inventory/Mercedes-Benz-of-Greensboro/59104?sortClass=price-high-to-low&class=GLS:SUV

 

 

 

[surreal1272]

Now what we really have to ask ourselves is "What does yet another endless back forth worth of BS with the Mercedes fanboy have anything to do with the ACTUAL subject of the thread?".

[oldshurst442]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a37444029/2021-maserati-ghibli-trofeo-is-not-german-in-every-way-it-should-be/

 

I know this is sensationalism to the Nth degree, and maybe 3 decades too late from this rag mag, but Ill take it. Better late than never.

Ive been saying this though constantly for 3 decades.

 

Quote

But right now, the Ghibli Trofeo is, well, intriguing. Yes, its reputation for unreliability is frustrating. Yes, its depreciation curve is shaped like the path of a shrieking Curtiss Helldiver aimed at the deck of a Japanese carrier. But it has its own vibe and that’s endearing. Assuming, that is, you haven’t been sucked into the fundamentalist cults of BMW M or Mercedes-AMG.

The Ghibli is Maser’s mid-size sedan. About the same size as a BMW 5-Series or Mercedes E-Class. It’s 118.0-inch wheelbase is 2.3-inches longer than that of the E-Machine, but at 195.7-inches in length, it’s about three-quarters of an inch shorter. This particular Ghibli – the M157 – has been around since 2013 and the only reason it’s not more familiar is that so few are sold. Remember, the low-spec E-Class is used as a taxi in Germany. BMW 5-Series are cop cars. The Ghibli is not a cab.

 

@smk4565

 

Reality is that...Mercedes is not entirely the luxury you wish it soooooo bad to be... 

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Interesting read if you want to read or you can watch a video.

Refreshed Tesla Model S Vs Mercedes-Benz EQS: Comparison (insideevs.com)

So based on @smk4565 thoughts about being the world leader in Luxury auto's, then how does one explain that the real BEV Luxury company based on price is Tesla with 79% market share at this point in 2021 globally.

https://electrek.co/2021/08/24/tesla-leads-ev-sales-double-us/

Mercedes is clearly playing catch up, clearly following and clearly not the leading luxury maker.

Based on Prices, the upcoming Hummer by GMC Truck and SUV could make them the ultimate luxury maker of BEV considering price point puts them on par with Maybach trim packages.

So GM becomes the leading Luxury maker then since both the Truck and SUV are sold out for the next 2 years.

That is one thing we HAVE NOT SEEN with the EQS.

[smk4565]

10 hours ago, David said:

Interesting read if you want to read or you can watch a video.

Refreshed Tesla Model S Vs Mercedes-Benz EQS: Comparison (insideevs.com)

So based on @smk4565 thoughts about being the world leader in Luxury auto's, then how does one explain that the real BEV Luxury company based on price is Tesla with 79% market share at this point in 2021 globally.

https://electrek.co/2021/08/24/tesla-leads-ev-sales-double-us/

Mercedes is clearly playing catch up, clearly following and clearly not the leading luxury maker.

Based on Prices, the upcoming Hummer by GMC Truck and SUV could make them the ultimate luxury maker of BEV considering price point puts them on par with Maybach trim packages.

So GM becomes the leading Luxury maker then since both the Truck and SUV are sold out for the next 2 years.

That is one thing we HAVE NOT SEEN with the EQS.

First off, pointless comparison as the EQE is identical in size to the Tesla Model S.  That is the Model S competitor, Tesla doesn’t have an EQS competitor, maybe they should build a full size luxury car, although they have other more urgent needs.

Mercedes does have catch up to do, but they are on a mission.  They released 3 new EV’s today (GLB, EQS AMG, and EQE) and near production ready concept electric G-wagen and Maybach SUV.  5 new EV’s in one day, plus a promise of EQE and EQS SUVs for next year.  They are coming for Tesla.

 

A Maybach is way more money than a Hummer, also that Hummer interior isn’t that nice.

Where I think GM could do well is doing a midsize suv that is off road focused and EV that takes inspiration from the Hummer, but it half the cost and they can sell Chevy and GMC versions.  So when you have people interested in a Hummer but don’t have $100k or don’t want a vehicle that big they have an easy transition to a sale.

Edited September 6, 2021 by smk4565

[balthazar]

Why on Earth did Daimler design all these BE mercedes' as giant, fat, pregnant guppies?? The EQE is a huge slug!

You have hopeful photochoppers designing things all aggressive and slick, then Daimler drops this sort of rotten egg on the market : 

Edited September 6, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

Yeah...so.

With the arrival of the new Mercedes EV things, its safe to say....that...Mercedes EVs will NOT destroy Tesla.  (Because they are ugly things. They look more dated than Tesla's vehicles..)

 

Thread back on topic BTW.  

Edited September 6, 2021 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Why on Earth did Daimler design all these BE mercedes' as giant, fat, pregnant guppies?? The EQE is a huge slug!

You have hopeful photochoppers designing things all aggressive and slick, then Daimler drops this sort of rotten egg on the market : 

Worse, all the EQE proves on the outside, is that Benz is perfectly capable of designing a slightly uglier Toyota Corolla. The front fender panels are an utter disaster as well but hey, the "best or nothing" lol!

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

First off, pointless comparison as the EQE is identical in size to the Tesla Model S.

First off. You are wrong. Publications sure have no problem comparing the EQS to the Model S.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-mercedes-benz-eqs-vs-tesla-model-s-specs/

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/04/16/can-mercedess-eqs-really-challenge-teslas-model-s/?sh=395aaafd78db

 

Care to explain why even Mercedes Blog is comparing the two?

 

https://mercedesblog.com/first-comparison-mercedes-eqs-vs-tesla-model-s/

 

And let me correct one sentence for you. You said, "5 new EV’s in one day, plus a promise of EQE and EQS SUVs for next year."

 

They did not release five new EVs in day. They merely announced, or promised, five new EVs. Stop the pointless hyperbole and hype already.

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A Maybach is way more money than a Hummer, also that Hummer interior isn’t that nice.

And again, the Maybach is vaporware while the Hummer is actually real at this point and will be far more off-road capable than that gussied up Benz. Again, apples to off road oranges.

 

And regarding the Maybach concept EV, Lincoln called. They want their 2015 MKX back. While I am sure the interior will be pure luxury (better be for its price), that exterior is derivative s*** and not even the biggest Benz fanboy will convince me otherwise. 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

Why on Earth did Daimler design all these BE mercedes' as giant, fat, pregnant guppies?? The EQE is a huge slug!

You have hopeful photochoppers designing things all aggressive and slick, then Daimler drops this sort of rotten egg on the market : 

I think the exterior is pretty meh, they missed on the exterior as the E-class and S-class look far better than the electric cars, why would I pay more for an uglier car?  Interior of the EQE looks awesome, they nailed that.    Problem is they are designing these EV's by wind tunnel, they need to sacrifice 10 miles of range in the name of styling.

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Worse, all the EQE proves on the outside, is that Benz is perfectly capable of designing a slightly uglier Toyota Corolla. The front fender panels are an utter disaster as well but hey, the "best or nothing" lol!

First off. You are wrong. Publications sure have no problem comparing the EQS to the Model S.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-mercedes-benz-eqs-vs-tesla-model-s-specs/

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/04/16/can-mercedess-eqs-really-challenge-teslas-model-s/?sh=395aaafd78db

 

Care to explain why even Mercedes Blog is comparing the two?

 

https://mercedesblog.com/first-comparison-mercedes-eqs-vs-tesla-model-s/

 

And let me correct one sentence for you. You said, "5 new EV’s in one day, plus a promise of EQE and EQS SUVs for next year."

 

They did not release five new EVs in day. They merely announced, or promised, five new EVs. Stop the pointless hyperbole and hype already.

Publications compared EQS and Tesla Model S, because for a month or 2 the EQS was the only EV Mercedes.

Tesla Model S dimensions: 196" L x 77" W x 57" H  wheelbase 116.5"   base price $69,000

Now which of these 2 cars is closer to the Model S:

EQS dimensions: 207" L x 83.6" W x 60" H wheelbase 126.4".  est base price $124,000

EQE dimensions:  196.6" L x 77" W x 59" H  wheelbase 122.9"  est base price $65,000

 

EQS AMG, EQE, EQB all released in production trim, on sale in 2022.  EQG and Maybach EQ-SUV concept shown, but those are 90% of the way to production, those are 2023 models with the standard EQS SUV and EQE SUV, and AMG version of the EQE, supposed to be a Maybach EQS also.  By the end of calendar year 2023 Mercedes will have more EV's than Tesla.  They might not outsell Tesla, but they are going to have more models.

[balthazar]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand... we're back to determining 'competitors' by overall length.

Spinning those Golden Oldies!!

[surreal1272]

Just now, balthazar said:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand... we're back to determining 'competitors' by overall length.

Spinning those Golden Oldies!!

Exactly. Bar moving 101. 

[surreal1272]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand... we're back to determining 'competitors' by overall length.

Spinning those Golden Oldies!!

Guess by his length logic, that the GLS and Cadillac Escalade ESV are vastly different lengths. 
 

Escalade (regular wheelbase)-211”

Escalade ESV-227”

 

GLS-204-206”

 

 

See where this is going yet @smk4565 or is it just too hard to admit you were mistaken? 

Edited September 6, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand... we're back to determining 'competitors' by overall length.

Spinning those Golden Oldies!!

What would you like to compare them by?  Length, width height are all within an inch on EQE and Model S, and the EQE estimated cost is the same as a Model S.  

[surreal1272]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

What would you like to compare them by?  Length, width height are all within an inch on EQE and Model S, and the EQE estimated cost is the same as a Model S.  

See my above response and rethink your statement. 

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

What would you like to compare them by?  Length, width height are all within an inch on EQE and Model S, and the EQE estimated cost is the same as a Model S.  

Wasn’t it you that was touting the near $130K Model S Plaid not so long ago? 

[smk4565]

20 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Guess by his length logic, that the GLS and Cadillac Escalade ESV are vastly different lengths. 
 

Escalade (regular wheelbase)-211”

Escalade ESV-227”

 

GLS-204-206”

 

 

See where this is going yet @smk4565 or is it just too hard to admit you were mistaken? 

There is no long wheelbase GLS, or X7 for that matter.  But the regular Escalade and Navigator and Grand Wagoneer are not too much bigger than the GLS and X7, more importantly they all cost roughly the same.  But the GLS and Escalade are the closest vehicles between those 2 brands, as the GLE and XT6 are close in size and price, etc.

The Model S is not close in size or price the the EQS, however the EQE is almost identical to the Model S.  Just as there will be an EQ C-class that will be the size of a Model 3, and there is going to be an EQ A-class under that.  Mercedes is going to have 4 EV cars to Tesla's 2, I don't know why anyone would compare a mid-size Tesla to a full size Mercedes when there is mid-size Mercedes also.  

 

[smk4565]

7 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

See my above response and rethink your statement. 

Wasn’t it you that was touting the near $130K Model S Plaid not so long ago? 

It is a fast car, but that is their top end, the Model S starts at $69k, and $130k for the Plaid. Basically the costs of an E450 or BMW 540i to the E63 and M5.  Same price structure, same size cars.    Mercedes will have AMG EQE to complete with the Model S Plaid.  The EQS53 is 750 hp, now if they named that car the "53" it must be because there is a "63" in the works.  There is always an AMG 63.  And all they announced so far was EQE350 with single motor, obviously there will be a dual motor, and then an AMG above that.  And considering pretty much every car they make has 2 levels of AMG, I don't see why they would change it on the electric cars.

[oldshurst442]

Awesome!   @smk4565

 

 

We agree on something...that Mercedes and its EVs will NOT destroy Tesla.  

19 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yeah...so.

With the arrival of the new Mercedes EV things, its safe to say....that...Mercedes EVs will NOT destroy Tesla.  (Because they are ugly things. They look more dated than Tesla's vehicles..)

 

Thread back on topic BTW.  

 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Publications compared EQS and Tesla Model S, because for a month or 2 the EQS was the only EV Mercedes.

Tesla Model S dimensions: 196" L x 77" W x 57" H  wheelbase 116.5"   base price $69,000

Now which of these 2 cars is closer to the Model S:

EQS dimensions: 207" L x 83.6" W x 60" H wheelbase 126.4".  est base price $124,000

EQE dimensions:  196.6" L x 77" W x 59" H  wheelbase 122.9"  est base price $65,000

EQS AMG, EQE, EQB all released in production trim, on sale in 2022.  EQG and Maybach EQ-SUV concept shown, but those are 90% of the way to production, those are 2023 models with the standard EQS SUV and EQE SUV, and AMG version of the EQE, supposed to be a Maybach EQS also.  By the end of calendar year 2023 Mercedes will have more EV's than Tesla.  They might not outsell Tesla, but they are going to have more models.

 

Thread once again back on track! 

[smk4565]

All the Germans will have big line ups of EV's, Genesis is going all EV too.  So question will become can Tesla keep up with introducing new product, new models, new body styles, new interiors, etc.  The Model S has had basically 2 mid-cycle refreshes in nearly 10 years, nothing done with the Model 3 since launch.   The Germans usually do an all new model every 7 years with a refresh halfway through.   Look at how slow Tesla is to get new product out now, I don't think they'll be able to keep up with how often the competition can pump out new models.

[surreal1272]

Just now, smk4565 said:

All the Germans will have big line ups of EV's

Again let me correct this for you German auto fan. 
 

“All the foreign AND domestics will have big line ups of EV’s”

 

Because, as I’m sure you are aware, the Germans are not the only ones with multiple EVs coming out. 

[riviera74]

I have a question: what EV should Tesla worry about the most?  The expensive ones from Mercedes or BMW?  Or a truly affordable EV for under $25K?

[surreal1272]

9 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

I have a question: what EV should Tesla worry about the most?  The expensive ones from Mercedes or BMW?  Or a truly affordable EV for under $25K?

Probably a little bit of both. 

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

I have a question: what EV should Tesla worry about the most?  The expensive ones from Mercedes or BMW?  Or a truly affordable EV for under $25K?

 Neither

No one.

Its themselves they need to fear. Its their second act with all their 4 models that the buying folk will scrutinize and compare and contrast.  Not their rivals' EVs...  The second generation of their models need to impress the people in looks and they have to be better than their 1st generation in performance.  They have established themselves as THE benchmark for all others to follow. That is their uphill battle. 

AND... if they remain static and dont release second generations on their current 4 models, then they will fade away as well.  They themselves are their biggest rival...

 

 

 

 

[riviera74]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

 Neither

No one.

Its themselves they need to fear. Its their second act with all their 4 models that the buying folk will scrutinize and compare and contrast.  Not their rivals' EVs...  The second generation of their models need to impress the people in looks and they have to be better than their 1st generation in performance.  They have established themselves as THE benchmark for all others to follow. That is their uphill battle. 

AND... if they remain static and dont release second generations on their current 4 models, then they will fade away as well.  They themselves are their biggest rival...

 

 

 

 

Sophomore slump, huh? Good to know.  Thanks.

[oldshurst442]

34 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Sophomore slump, huh? Good to know.  Thanks.

 

Ford's survival relied heavily on the next vehicle after the Model T.

It was not what Chevrolet or Dodge was selling...

What Chevrolet's and Dodge's answer to the Model T was what made the Model T obsolete.  But Ford's survival was what Ford was going to bring as the Model T's successor. 

Im taking the same approach here. 

Tesla has ENOURMOUS brand cache and recognition. Its their fight to lose...

All Tesla has to do is just repeat what they did the 1st time around. Capture lightning in a bottle a second time by being better than themselves.   Like I said, THEY are the benchmark... 

GM, Ford  and what it looks like what Mercedes is declaring on their EVs is that they can at least match and beat Tesla's tech.

Mercedes' design falls short on the outside but on the inside they look like true winners.

GM seems like both the outside and the inside looks like they are winners.

Ford seems to be doing great with the Mach E and what they've shown the EV F150 to be. 

But alas, Tesla has that awesome brand recognition...  

Ill repeat, Tesla remains static on their 5 models (Roadster included) and GM, Ford, VW Group, Mercedes WILL clean their clock. 

But if Tesla brings out 2nd gen models...  all Tesla's 2nd gen models have to do is just be better than the 1st gen.  Maybe the Roadster will not survive a 1st gen let alone a 2nd gen...

If they can accomplish that, they will live and do great and unto the 3rd generation of their 4 or 5 or 6 models.   (Cybertruck the 6th model?) 

Its important that they dont flub the Cybertruck as that is billions of dollars of R&D that they could use for 2nd gen Model S,X,3 and Y.  

If they succeed, then that guarantees billions of dollars...for a REAL 25 000 dollar affordable EV themselves. 

Like I said, its up to them this early on... 

Its what THEY do, NOT what their competition does.  I firmly believe that.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Guess by his length logic, that the GLS and Cadillac Escalade ESV are vastly different lengths. 
 

Escalade (regular wheelbase)-211”

Escalade ESV-227”

 

GLS-204-206”

 

 

See where this is going yet @smk4565 or is it just too hard to admit you were mistaken? 

...Those are pretty big differences though... Walk around a GLS and an Escalade and they're significantly different in size. 

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

There is no long wheelbase GLS, or X7 for that matter.  But the regular Escalade and Navigator and Grand Wagoneer are not too much bigger than the GLS and X7, more importantly they all cost roughly the same.  But the GLS and Escalade are the closest vehicles between those 2 brands, as the GLE and XT6 are close in size and price, etc.

Just walk around each of them. The Escalade/Navigator/(assuming) Grand Wagoneer are much larger vehicles. They may be priced similarly, but the American ones are much larger. They probably have 6 inches in width alone on the GLS/X7. 

[surreal1272]

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

...Those are pretty big differences though... Walk around a GLS and an Escalade and they're significantly different in size. 

Just walk around each of them. The Escalade/Navigator/(assuming) Grand Wagoneer are much larger vehicles. They may be priced similarly, but the American ones are much larger. They probably have 6 inches in width alone on the GLS/X7. 

And that’s my point. They are direct competitors while being vastly different in size and price range, which runs counter to his little narrative that the EQS should not be compared to the Tesla Model S for those very same reasons. 
 

It should be noted that the Slade is four inches wider than the GLS. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

12 hours ago, riviera74 said:

I have a question: what EV should Tesla worry about the most?  The expensive ones from Mercedes or BMW?  Or a truly affordable EV for under $25K?

I think they'll face more threats from the non-luxury automakers as they'll hit Tesla's volume vehicles more with more service centers/dealers. 

[G. David Felt]

12 hours ago, riviera74 said:

I have a question: what EV should Tesla worry about the most?  The expensive ones from Mercedes or BMW?  Or a truly affordable EV for under $25K?

Tesla should worry about themselves and the distractions that come from trying to be all things to everyone from Solar roofs, solar power generation, power company, auto company, etc. etc. etc.

Plus as the posts clearly show, all other auto companies. Ford right now should be a worry as 70% of their Mach-e sales are conquest sales from Tesla based on what Ford is reporting and people are posting about the over all quality with fit n finish.

Right now I think the coming Rivian Truck will hurt Tesla as will Fords F-150 Truck. This covers both high and low price points and I think Tesla as well as any other company that ignores the desires of the buying public will feel the hurt.

I honestly think Mercedes is making a MAJOR mistake in having so many electric cars out before electric SUV/CUV/TRUCK.

[Drew Dowdell]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:14 PM, smk4565 said:

But the Lincoln Mark LT failing sort of proves my point.  Even if it was a badge job, if the Lincoln badge carried weight, and people wanted a truck from a luxury brand, they should be willing to pay extra for the badge alone.  And I agree the Mark LT was poor execution, what would need to happen is more of the difference you see in a Navigator and an Expedition Limited to justify the price difference.

The Lincoln Mark LT came out in 2005 at a time when Lincoln had virtually zero brand cred. They were still selling Town Cars and they had the Aviator as a similarly bad badge job.  The only credible entry at the time was the Lincoln LS which did fairly well but died due to corporate turf fights.

If Lincoln did a Mark LT today with the interiors that Lincoln is putting in their vehicles today, put in their new high end navigator suspension, and  I think they'd have a $100k+ truck easily.

On 9/2/2021 at 10:14 PM, smk4565 said:

I write estimates on cars, the Avalanche basically has the same parts and schematics as a Suburban, they are a Suburban with the roof cut off in back basically, so it would make more sense to build them with the Suburban rather than the Silverado.   But sales declined on those, GM obviously thought there wasn't enough of a market for Avalanche/EXT or that people would just buy a Silverado anyway and they'd still get their money.

You are partially correct, the Avalanche is just a Suburban from a parts perspective except for the rear seats, mid-gate, and tailgate apparatus. The rest of your statement is you just agreeing with GM's shortsightedness.  Avalanches still command a premium on the used market. The people who have them love them and won't give them up.  On the multiple Avalanche groups I'm in, people are regularly keeping them alive into the 300k - 500k mile range because there just isn't an exact replacement out there for them.  And often times when they do replace it with another truck they go to Ford or Ram because there is no loyalty since "their" model is gone.  When GM decided not to continue with the Avalanche they thought (as with Pontiac, Saab, and Saturn) they they'd just be able to push those customers to another model/brand.  That hasn't been the case.  Their analysis was also faulty in that they didn't account for the large price increases on the Suburban/Tahoe platform that would later be decided on.  The Avalanche should have been continued but only as a premium priced truck with no "base" models like it had originally been marketed. Basically LT and up at a minimum... no bench seat, no base radio, probably leather as standard. They would have sold all of them and filled a chunk of excess capacity at Arlington

 

On 9/2/2021 at 10:14 PM, smk4565 said:

Bu Luxury truck, you are talking about a luxury trim of an existing truck.  For sure there is room for Denalis and F150 Limited.  But do you see a market for a truck from a luxury brand, like Cadillac or Lincoln or Lexus?

Yes I do... maybe not from Lexus because there aren't enough Tundra owners out there who want "more" to make it worthwhile.   I don't see a place for Ram to go... I mean they're not going to make a Maserati or Alfa Romeo truck based on the Ram, but if Jeep really wanted to stick it to GM, the Grand Wagoneer is built on the Ram frame and a Grand Wagoneer EXT with a proper mid-gate would make a splash. 

But a new Escalade EXT or a Cadillac version of the Denali with the 6.2 and super cruise?  They won't sell a lot of them, but they'll sell at $110k+ all day.  A Lincoln truck with the Navigator interior, the new magic suspension, and the Aviator Plug-In Hybrid's drivetrain sporting 630 lb-ft? With all of those parts already on the shelf, it's just about pure profit to run a few of those down the F-150 assembly line at $110k+ a pop.

On 9/5/2021 at 11:23 PM, balthazar said:

Why on Earth did Daimler design all these BE mercedes' as giant, fat, pregnant guppies?? The EQE is a huge slug!

You have hopeful photochoppers designing things all aggressive and slick, then Daimler drops this sort of rotten egg on the market : 

they look so dumpy

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, David said:

Ford right now should be a worry as 70% of their Mach-e sales are conquest sales from Tesla

To clarify; what I read did not state it ‘was from Tesla’. Conquest sales almost always simply means (here); a non-Ford.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

To clarify; what I read did not state it ‘was from Tesla’. Conquest sales almost always simply means (here); a non-Ford.

Your right, usually a non-ford. I have been reading allot of posts from Tesla conquest sales people are posting to YouTube or the various Mach-e forums and they all seem to be Tesla converts.

Ford is Nailing it with a better interior than Tesla. That should be a concern to Tesla that they need an update STAT on the product line and not in a few years.

[smk4565]

18 hours ago, riviera74 said:

I have a question: what EV should Tesla worry about the most?  The expensive ones from Mercedes or BMW?  Or a truly affordable EV for under $25K?

I don't know if there will be so called $25k or even $30k vehicles from rivals.  The Hyundai Ionic 5 is supposed to start around $44,000, the Kia EV6 around $45,000 and those are base models, so add the options and you are at $50k or more.  For $50k are you going buy a Tesla or a Hyundai?   

People are used to paying $50-60k for a BMW or Mercedes, or a Tesla for that matter.  But people won't pay $50-60k for a Kia, the K900 flopped, the Stinger flopped, the Cadenza flopped.  The Telluride does well, but those are more $40-50k, and a 3 row SUV.  Where as the Kia EV6 is smaller than a Sorrento, I think $50k for a Kia compact crossover is a hard sell.

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

...Those are pretty big differences though... Walk around a GLS and an Escalade and they're significantly different in size. 

Just walk around each of them. The Escalade/Navigator/(assuming) Grand Wagoneer are much larger vehicles. They may be priced similarly, but the American ones are much larger. They probably have 6 inches in width alone on the GLS/X7. 

The American ones are larger sure, but you can't compare a GLS to a Lincoln Aviator or Cadillac XT6 which are much smaller and cheaper.  At least the X7 and GLS cost roughly the same as the big American SUVs.

In my example though, the EQE and Model S have nearly identical dimensions, and EQE is supposed to be priced the same as the Model S, sounds like those are competition.  The EQS is a foot longer and double the price of the Model S, those aren't direct competitors.  That would be like saying the Mercedes S-class and Audi A6 are competitors, they aren't.

[oldshurst442]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

People are used to paying $50-60k for a BMW or Mercedes,

People are also used to paying $45 000 dollars for Mercedes vehicles.  About a third of their North American volume is BELOW 50 thousand US dollars...

Mercedes is chasing volume, so expect Mercedes vehicles to be UNDER $40 000 in the coming decade....   ICE or EV...

Edited September 7, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Lincoln Mark LT came out in 2005 at a time when Lincoln had virtually zero brand cred. They were still selling Town Cars and they had the Aviator as a similarly bad badge job.  The only credible entry at the time was the Lincoln LS which did fairly well but died due to corporate turf fights.

If Lincoln did a Mark LT today with the interiors that Lincoln is putting in their vehicles today, put in their new high end navigator suspension, and  I think they'd have a $100k+ truck easily.

You are partially correct, the Avalanche is just a Suburban from a parts perspective except for the rear seats, mid-gate, and tailgate apparatus....

 

Yes I do... maybe not from Lexus because there aren't enough Tundra owners out there who want "more" to make it worthwhile.   I don't see a place for Ram to go... I mean they're not going to make a Maserati or Alfa Romeo truck based on the Ram, but if Jeep really wanted to stick it to GM, the Grand Wagoneer is built on the Ram frame and a Grand Wagoneer EXT with a proper mid-gate would make a splash. 

But a new Escalade EXT or a Cadillac version of the Denali with the 6.2 and super cruise?  They won't sell a lot of them, but they'll sell at $110k+ all day.  A Lincoln truck with the Navigator interior, the new magic suspension, and the Aviator Plug-In Hybrid's drivetrain sporting 630 lb-ft? With all of those parts already on the shelf, it's just about pure profit to run a few of those down the F-150 assembly line at $110k+ a pop.

 

Lincoln has no credibility now either, not much has changed.

I have heard what people liked about the Avalanche was it rides/handles better than a Silverado, because it is basically a Suburban, which is 1 body, not 2 pieces, has better suspension, etc.  I don't disagree that there are advantages to it, or that they couldn't sell some volume with it.  I just think GM beancounters must have figured that they could sell X number of Avalanche/Escalades but 80-90% of X would just buy a Silverado/Suburban anyway.  So even if they lose 10-20% of X units, that is cheaper than building and marketing another model.  Not much different than the Germans saying less coupes and convertibles, they figure those people will just buy something else off the lot and if they lose a few people, oh well.  

I still have doubts that if there were a Lincoln or Cadillac pick up for $85k and a Black Label/Platinum for $100k that it would sell.  GM and Ford must have done market research on that and don't see volume there.  Years ago, I might have thought they don't want a pick up on a luxury dealer lot, but Lincoln tried it twice, and Lincoln is SUVs only now.  Cadillac, maybe if they are trying to be a performance/luxury brand don't want a pick up there, but I doubt they care about that since they make 3 FWD crossovers.  So the only reason they don't exist must be that their market research tells them they won't sell.

[smk4565]

12 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

People are also used to paying $45 000 dollars for Mercedes vehicles.  About a third of their North American volume is BELOW 50 thousand US dollars...

Mercedes is chasing volume, so expect Mercedes vehicles to be UNDER $40 000 in the coming decade....   ICE or EV...

Yes you can get a Mercedes for $45,000, you can also get 5 different ones for over $145,000, not sure why it matters.   

Point is, I don't see Tesla taking on a big threat from $50,000 Kias and Hyundais.  The Hyundai Ionic 5 is the same size as a Tuscon, but the Ionic 5 is double the price.  People aren't going to spend $50k for a Hyundai compact crossover.  Now maybe Hyundai/Kia roll out a $399 a month lease on those things just to move them and that is how they do it.